Author Topic: "Finding Jesus"  (Read 4534 times)

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Online JeffPT

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2011, 08:15:49 PM »
The OT among other things is the prophesy of the coming King/Savior.  I believe, can't cite scripture or prove with the scientific method, that God is eternal, absent from time.  Jesus says we (saved anyway) were there with Him in the beginning, when God created the universe.  How can that be??  Just as stupid as stars falling from heaven, right??  The Book of Revelation was written by a man who was given a glimpse of eternity where everything was laid bare; past, present, and future.  If the Bible says Gods Word will never pass away, that means right now in eternity David is slaying Goliath.  Again, can't use the scientific method to prove any of this. 

If you can not use the scientific method to prove any of it, then please tell us what methodology you are using to determine that this stuff is true?  And once you have done that, can you please tell us why someone elses religion can not appeal to that same methodology to prove that their beliefs are true? 

Also, do you believe there is a more useful tool than the scientific method in determining what is true and not true about our universe? 

Anyway, the Bible applies to the present, just as it did in OT times, gives a history, and tells the future.  I also believe that all hell is is not being with God by your own choice (Did I just say God is pro-choice?).  That time continues and you pray for the sweet relief of death (by your definition) which never comes.  Heaven can't be explained, because there is an absence of time in eternity.  No one can comprehend that.  Job 38:36 36 “Who has put wisdom in the innermost being Or given understanding to the mind?(Oh I forgot...It evolved). parenthesis mine

Again, what methodology are you using to determine that any of this is the literal truth? 

I need to read your post more carefully because you make some interesting points.  I hope to return to this next week.  In my studies of books of antiquity, if it's wrong, it's wrong because the Bible hasn't changed in thousands of years to accommodate culture, science, whatever.

If you think the bible hasn't changed in thousands of years, then you need to get your head examined.  The printing press wasn't invented until the 1400's.  Before that, all copying was by hand.  You need to check out some biblical history.

When I was an undergrad, about two years before I realized that truth is different from science, the scientific method, facts, math books, etc., I doubted all my (really someone else s just like you guys if you think about it) preconceived ideas on origins, which at the time I was finally convinced it was the BBT, when the curly haired sixties vintage 'make-sex-not-war" prof proved mathematically that the entropy of the universe increases even in a frictionless cycle (Otto, refrigeration, whatever).  By frictionless I mean adiabatic, isotropic, etc. You know, the reason your refrigerator runs, the reason power is generated in steam plants, your car runs, etc.  It blew my mind!!  It got me rethinking all of the Carl Sagan, Star Trek, and the other stuff I was feeding my mind, and a few years later, viola.....I found the truth, and the truth set me free.

So you really ARE saying that the scientific method was inferior in determining the truths about our universe, and that you found a far superior method.   Excellent!!  Can you please tell us what that is?  And how we can use it to determine truths we may not yet know about?  Because while I am open to this possibility, it is the scientific method that allows every single thing within a 20 foot radius of me to exist, so I have to give it a bit of respect.  It has a far better track record than any other methodology ever devised by man, but it sounds like yours is even better!  I can't wait to hear it.  Does your method provide a far superior way of making a computer?  Or perhaps, does your method provide us with the capability to generate a more efficient way to travel through space?  This truth that set you free... can you use it to reinvent a better light bulb?  Can it predict the weather more accurately?  What convinced you that science is so wrong all the time, in a world where it appears to get it right so often?     

Also, I would really like to know how you got from a curly haired professor talking about entropy in a frictionless cycle, to whatever truth it is that set you free.  You make it sound like that leap is extremely logical, and for the life of me, I can't figure out how. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline rickymooston

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #59 on: September 17, 2011, 05:58:48 AM »
In response, the co-worker said; "I don't read fiction. I don't enjoy fiction." Which finance boldly responded; "But you preach the Bible? And you read it frequently!" (Co-worker is a Christian, his father is a pastor.) Co-workers response: "Have YOU ever read the Bible? It's just history!"

i like this.

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Anyway, so the co-worker has just completed Harry Potter book one, and is waiting for my finance to complete his part of the Bible. My finance isn't religious in the slightest - he never even grew up religious. He compares Jesus to Gandalf.  :-\ And considers the Bible fiction.


Acts might do nicely.


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While I listen to him, I always want to ask: how does one 'find' Jesus?

 Mathew 7:  7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."

The meaning is related to one gaining an understanding of, making a connection to the words of, living accordimg to and having a "personal" relationship with Jesus
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline velkyn

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #60 on: September 20, 2011, 10:16:06 AM »
The OT among other things is the prophesy of the coming King/Savior.  I believe, can't cite scripture or prove with the scientific method, that God is eternal, absent from time.  Jesus says we (saved anyway) were there with Him in the beginning, when God created the universe.  How can that be??  Just as stupid as stars falling from heaven, right??  The Book of Revelation was written by a man who was given a glimpse of eternity where everything was laid bare; past, present, and future.  If the Bible says Gods Word will never pass away, that means right now in eternity David is slaying Goliath.  Again, can't use the scientific method to prove any of this.
Funny how it fails time and time again and show how Christians pick and choose the verses they think reflects their story whilst ignoring those that don’t.  Your myths are no different from anyone elses.  NO evidence, nothing to back them up. There is no reason to think that Revelation was written by anyone but an ergot-addled hermit.   
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Anyway, the Bible applies to the present, just as it did in OT times, gives a history, and tells the future.  I also believe that all hell is is not being with God by your own choice (Did I just say God is pro-choice?).  That time continues and you pray for the sweet relief of death (by your definition) which never comes.  Heaven can't be explained, because there is an absence of time in eternity.  No one can comprehend that.  Job 38:36 36 “Who has put wisdom in the innermost being Or given understanding to the mind?(Oh I forgot...It evolved). parenthesis mine
Not even remotely.  And lovely attempt by a poor Christian to redefine hell so they don’t get the “oogies”.  And no God isn’t pro-choice.  Just read your bible.  Romans 9 has all about how there is no choice; we have JC saying directly that he intentionally prevents the free choice of people to believe.  More baseless nonsense.  and I do enjoy when Christians try to pull out the ol’ “we can’t understand god” when convenient, but oh when they want, you all claim that you have no trouble understanding your god and know exactly what it wants.
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I need to read your post more carefully because you make some interesting points.  I hope to return to this next week.  In my studies of books of antiquity, if it's wrong, it's wrong because the Bible hasn't changed in thousands of years to accommodate culture, science, whatever.
  And more willful ignorance about your own holy book.  Sorry, jtp, but it has changed.  And it has become irrelevant as we discover so much of it is wrong. 
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Anyway, I wanted to address velkyn:  "Ah, the usual story of how "bad" the Christian was before he got Jayyysssuus! "  My reply: I'm still bad.  You haven't read all my posts and some even agree you can't tell the difference between Christians and Atheists if you examine their behavior?  Hmmmmmm  So whats wrong with smoking dope?  You're the one that just said it was bad, I didn't.  Reeking doesn't necessarily mean stink, perfume can reek if too strong.  Did I say reeking with dope was a bad smell?  I love the smell of burning nicotine in the outdoors.
Ah, the false humility of a Christian, how sweet.   And love the attempts to back pedal and claim you didn’t really mean smoking dope was bad.  Hilarious.  Sorry, I’m not that dumb, jtp and you certainly aren’t that clever.  Nice to see that you didn’t address my problem, of why your god never has gotten back to me about my prayers and losing my faith. 
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When I was an undergrad, about two years before I realized that truth is different from science, the scientific method, facts, math books, etc., I doubted all my (really someone else s just like you guys if you think about it) preconceived ideas on origins, which at the time I was finally convinced it was the BBT, when the curly haired sixties vintage 'make-sex-not-war" prof proved mathematically that the entropy of the universe increases even in a frictionless cycle (Otto, refrigeration, whatever).  By frictionless I mean adiabatic, isotropic, etc. You know, the reason your refrigerator runs, the reason power is generated in steam plants, your car runs, etc.  It blew my mind!!  It got me rethinking all of the Carl Sagan, Star Trek, and the other stuff I was feeding my mind, and a few years later, viola.....I found the truth, and the truth set me free.
This is just a riot.  So, you’ve decided that the “truth” is different from reality.  Nice, many other theists do that too, and with no more evidence than you or less evidence than you.  Are their gods real too?  I’m sure you do still use the truth from science, math, etc, every day though just like the good little hypocrite you are.   It’s just hilarious to see you ignore evidence in favor of your myths, which have nothing to support them at all.  Oooh, I should be impressed that someone who is ignorant decides he’s right with no evidence!  And love the sprinkling of science words, it gives your post such a odor of lipstick sitting on a pig. 
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Offline rickymooston

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #61 on: September 20, 2011, 08:09:05 PM »
  Can x-christians on this site be honest?

Yes. What would you like to know?

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  Was it science that caused your conversion

Not really, to be honest. I always believed in science. I don't think I ever doubted evolution very much. I suppose initially, I considered the possibility it could be wrong but after looking into it further, I'd say, I am more convinced. My opinion on evolution isn't objective. I know talking points but am not trained in the details of biology.

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or the life style of typical American "christians"?

I'm Canadian. The Christians I dealt with were by and large reasonable people. Further more, I read the new testament and was happy to tell the difference between those following and those not.

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, or your "christian" dad abused you?

My dad's Christianity was very mild. He never abused me.

My mother was an atheist.

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or some other hideous human experience?  In other words; a moral dilemma rather than a "scientific" revelation?

Well, science doesn't really talk about religion per se.

i think, the hell or the highway idea bothered me initially.

The real question to ask isn't "why are you an atheist" but "why were you a Christian".

I think it was an experientail thing for me. My atheist mom died. A pretty girl invited me to a church. I read the bible. It inspired me. The people in my youth group were nice, etc,etc.

I considered myself agnostic tell hitting the pot argument of Russel.

The history of humanity, supplied arguments too.

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I learned that a lot of christians are idiots.  My opinion is the human race is comprised of idiots, atheists and christians included.

Sure. A lot of people are idiots.
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline jtp56

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2011, 06:11:23 PM »
Velkyn: "This is just a riot.  So, you’ve decided that the “truth” is different from reality."

Bingo!    Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding....Velkyn is close....Woho...Woho...

Truth is reality.  Science isn't truth.

There is more truth in one verse of scripture than whats in a math or science book!   God gave us math and science for our benefit.  Some claim refrigeration was the most significant innovation that catapulted us to where we are today technologically; less labor on food production due to better storage capabilities allowing more time for scientific studies.  Adam lived what, to 900 years old?  Life expectancy just fifty years ago was what?  Thank God for science and the medical breakthroughs we are reaping (not creating, just figuring out).

Velkyn, we haven't created anything, we have only taken those things around us, applied mechanical and/or physical laws (which were here either at creation or since the primordial gooz), and engineered the rest.

Again I ask.  Do you guys finally have it figured out?????

How did the universe begin?  Was physics different then (before you answer remember; the heat of compression trumps the force of gravity)?

Back to the Truth: John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me".

The Truth is a person - Jesus Christ.  And to blow your mind even further: John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it....verse 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us...

Velkyn, if you want to be a hero amoung the BBT and evolution crowd, just write the following: "In the beginning was star stuff.  All things came into being through this stuff, and apart from Star Stuff nothing came into being that has come into being."  So you plagiarize the Bible....Your guys won't know.  And we're just idiots, who'll listen to us?

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Zankuu

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #63 on: September 22, 2011, 06:28:54 PM »
Truth is reality.  Science isn't truth.

So science isn't real now? All the scientific theories and laws don't fit with reality? Ohhhh I see...

SCIENCE:
Powered by magic®

Back to the Truth: John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me"

Of all the books in the bible to quote you choose John, the Gospel that the vast majority of biblical scholars view as the most irreconcilable and unreliable book in the entire NT. Nice.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Alzael

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2011, 06:52:04 PM »
jtp56, why don't you respond to the things that you left hanging in the old time religion thread before clogging up a new one with your ridiculous statements?

Or are you done saying nothing useful there and having everything you say shattered apart that you thought you would try it in a different thread?

Because the end result is simply going to be the same.

I should also point out that in the other thread you were trying to use science to make your case, in fact you (rather pathetically) tried to use Einstein and Sagan to give yourself credibility. Yet here you denounce it and use it with sarcasm and mockery. So I'm assuming that either before or now is/was a dishonest attempt at discussion.

Good to see hypocrisy and lying remains the one character trait consistent throughout all Christians that come to the forum. But you might want to at least try to be semi-consistent in what you ramble on about. It would help to make your lying and your glaring shortcomings much less readily transparent. Who knows, you may even trick someone into actually taking you seriously for a bit.


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Offline Hatter23

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2011, 12:00:50 AM »


The OT among other things is the prophesy of the coming King/Savior.  I believe, can't cite scripture or prove with the scientific method, that God is eternal, absent from time.  Jesus says we (saved anyway) were there with Him in the beginning, when God created the universe.  How can that be??  Just as stupid as stars falling from heaven, right??  The Book of Revelation was written by a man who was given a glimpse of eternity where everything was laid bare; past, present, and future.  If the Bible says Gods Word will never pass away, that means right now in eternity David is slaying Goliath.  Again, can't use the scientific method to prove any of this. 



You can't use scientific method to prove any of this because it is an unfalsifiable claim. Every religion makes these and they conflict with each other and observable reality.

There is nothing to separate Christianity from any other woo claim other than its popularity.

So you are the same as some gibbering tribal native talking about their Volcano god.

If not, show me why without committing a logical fallacy
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline velkyn

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2011, 09:09:28 AM »
Velkyn: "This is just a riot.  So, you’ve decided that the “truth” is different from reality."
Bingo!    Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding....Velkyn is close....Woho...Woho...
Truth is reality.  Science isn't truth.
  So, here we go.  Truth is reality.  Science has allowed us to measure our reality aka truth.  And not surprisingly, there is nothing to show that any gods or supernatural claims are valid since they have no evidence supporting them.  You use science every single day that demonstrates that your claims of god and the supernatural are *wrong*.   Reality and truth have nothing to do with what you claim.   

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There is more truth in one verse of scripture than whats in a math or science book!
  God gave us math and science for our benefit.  Some claim refrigeration was the most significant innovation that catapulted us to where we are today technologically; less labor on food production due to better storage capabilities allowing more time for scientific studies.  Adam lived what, to 900 years old?  Life expectancy just fifty years ago was what?  Thank God for science and the medical breakthroughs we are reaping (not creating, just figuring out).
  Wow, more unsupported claims. Gee, why am I not surprised?  Well, jtp, please do show how it was your god that did any of this.  why not another god or not god at all?  Of course, you’be been asked this before and you’ve ignored it, just like you’ve ignored the posts showing your op was pure garbage and that you are so pitifully willfully ignorant you couldn’t even support your own claims.   And no Adam did not live at all, much less to 900 years old.  You are just too amusing in your idiocy. 
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Velkyn, we haven't created anything, we have only taken those things around us, applied mechanical and/or physical laws (which were here either at creation or since the primordial gooz), and engineered the rest.
And gee, now we get the pathetic attempts by a Christian to redefine words in order to ignore reality.  How nice.

And then the rest descends into the usual “we don’t know so I can say “goddidit” with no evidence whatsoever”.  How not suprising again. 

Keep quoting useless bible verses, jtp, again, it proves nothing other than yep, you do have a book of sayings and myths.  Just like the Qu’ran, the Bavahagad Gita, etc.  Whoop-de-doo.  Nothing about the bible is mind-blowing.  It’s a primitive little story that is in no way new at all. 

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Velkyn, if you want to be a hero amoung the BBT and evolution crowd, just write the following: "In the beginning was star stuff.  All things came into being through this stuff, and apart from Star Stuff nothing came into being that has come into being."  So you plagiarize the Bible....Your guys won't know.  And we're just idiots, who'll listen to us?

Why would I ever do that since it’s wrong from the evidence we see, you know that evidence that is from the science you use every day like a hypocrite?  Why would I plagiarize an ignorant little story book?  You are indeed an idiot, if one only considers your antics on this board with your lies, your inability to support your regurgitated claims, your willful ignorance, etc. 
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Offline Ivellios

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2011, 09:10:47 AM »
Velkyn: "This is just a riot.  So, you’ve decided that the “truth” is different from reality."

Bingo!    Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding....Velkyn is close....Woho...Woho...

Truth is reality.  Science isn't truth.

Truth is based on fact, not lies or wishful thinking.

There is more truth in one verse of scripture than whats in a math or science book!

Humans need oxygen to live, if you inhibit that with, say water, you die. Nah, I guess according to you, this is a lie. The Bible might say, yes, you'll die... but Science will explain every little detail instead of the All Knowing God's answer, "godidit."

I'll add something else. Science is a collection of facts and thru repeated tests we can determine whether it is a fact or not.

Scientific Fact: The Earth is Spherical.
Bible "Truth": The Earth is Flat.

   God gave us math and science for our benefit.
God's "Math": Pi = 3

God didn't "give" us math and Science.  Echos don't happen because some God makes it happen. Humans realized Biblical "truth" didn't match reality, because it's a lie and then decided to try to figure it out in spite of God.

God says, "Obey me, do not Question." : "Do not eat from this tree!"
Science is: You propose a question, "Will I die if I eat this?" then Test to find out.  Eat... did not die.

Some claim refrigeration was the most significant innovation that catapulted us to where we are today technologically; less labor on food production due to better storage capabilities allowing more time for scientific studies.

Refrigeration is nice. It is created using Scientific Laws regarding volume, pressure and temperature. The Bible gave us none of this information. We had to figure it all out on our own. This came from Science books. Science that is based on Repeatable Facts. Therefore this is True, not a Lie.

Adam lived what, to 900 years old?

Proof outside of mythology please.

Life expectancy just fifty years ago was what?


A heck of a lot better than it was during Herod's Reign. No thanks to God.

Thank God for science

God hates those that question instead of being obedient, you're thanking the wrong ones.

and the medical breakthroughs

So spit on a blind person's eyes and they can see again? Oh wait, we have Reality to deal with. Religion interferes with Medical breakthroughs. Every step of the way... because taking an Asprin you're in defiance against God for giving you that Headache. Suffering is good for the soul, did you know that? You're supposed to thank God for the headache and try to figure out 'Why' he gave it to you and 'What' you needed to learn. When you do that, then God takes the Headache away. Science and Medicine or God and Miracles. You cannot have it both ways.

we are reaping (not creating, just figuring out).

???

We're learning because our All-Knowing God would rather have us suffer, to just shut up and be obedient. We realized if we rely on God, no healing will happen so we had to take matters into our own hands.

Velkyn, we haven't created anything, we have only taken those things around us, applied mechanical and/or physical laws (which were here either at creation or since the primordial gooz), and engineered the rest.

Just because we don't magically make a house appear, yet instead someone makes the architectual drawings, aquire the resources needed to build, get the permits, blah, lots of manual labor then, finally there's a house. Sorry, your "explanation" discredits every single person involved in the entire process. Yes, Humans did Create the House. It wasn't "rediscovered."

Again I ask.  Do you guys finally have it figured out?????

You think you do?

How did the universe begin?  Was physics different then (before you answer remember; the heat of compression trumps the force of gravity)?

You think you know the answer? What? Goddidit? Goddidit is a not an answer. It is a nonanswer. You can apply this "answer" to everything... which means in the end, this "answer" means nothing.

 For you, Godidit is the perfect answer for "What causes an echo?"

Back to the Truth: John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me".

Every single ex-christian on this site knows this verse. The fact that you said it proves you are not in any communication for an All-Knowing God because you just insulted us. I'm surprised you didn't type out John 3:16 as well. Using Bible verses to us is like a muslim using the Qu'ran to convince us. ie. Not happening.

The Truth is a person - Jesus Christ.

Truth is based on Fact. It is not a person. It may be true a certain person existed/exists but thier very existence is not 'Truth.'

And to blow your mind

The only mind blown is your own.

even further: John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it....verse 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us...

Outside of the Bible and John this means nothing. This is simply trying to "explain" why Jews who knew nothing of Jesus was "really" there at the beginning. "Really!" Funny, considering how this All-Knowing God waited till the NT to say anything about him. Remember, they were waiting for someone born from woman that gets knocked up by a guy from the lineage from David. Isiah was "fufilled" in Isiah 8.

Velkyn, if you want to be a hero amoung the BBT and evolution crowd, just write the following: "In the beginning was star stuff.  All things came into being through this stuff, and apart from Star Stuff nothing came into being that has come into being."  So you plagiarize the Bible....Your guys won't know.  And we're just idiots, who'll listen to us?

Looks like V beat me. But I was going to leave this part for her anyways.

Offline Alzael

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2011, 02:58:54 PM »

There is more truth in one verse of scripture than whats in a math or science book! 

Truth requires that you have evidence. Otherwise what you have is isdistinguishable from made-up fantasy, which you already knew because I've explained it to you before. So pick one verse of scripture and start laying out the evidence and we'll test this claim. I have a grade six science textbook right next to me that I borrowed from my younger brother for this occasion. I'll let you pick any verse of scripture you want and you can type up and present your evidence.

Then I'll do the same from the textbook and we can see conclusively which has more truth behind it.

I'm sure that you're not afraid to try and back this claim of yours up, right.......right?
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2011, 04:00:03 PM »
I have a faith challenge for jpt56 and anti-science Christians like him. Let's select two groups of 20 people and put each group in an isolated area like on Survivor for one month. A forest, island, desert. Each group is given a set of basic survival tools like a knife and some matches.

Both groups have to determine what roots and berries are edible, what reptiles and insects are dangerous, and how to do basic first aid. They have to find water and purify it. They have to deal with weather hazards, keep cool or warm. They have to make sure everyone makes it through the month as comfortably as possible.

Here is the tricky part: they must use only the information they get from one book. Everything they do has to be based on something taken word for word from that book.

Group A gets a copy of the bible.[1] Group B gets to choose any book of their choice. 

What kind of book do you think Group B would choose? A Quran? A bible, too? Or a practical text based on science that shows how to build a shelter and how to find helpful plants, etc?

I know what group I would want to be in and what kind of book we would choose. My "faith" would be in a practical science-based how to live off the land book, not in any supernatural forces.[2] 

Which group would jpt56 rather be in? How strong is your faith in invisible magic beings?[3] Do you really think the bible gives more factual information about the world than anything produced in the past 50 years?
 1. For fairness, it's in English or whatever language those folks speak.
 2. http://www.wholeearth.com/index.php
 3. How much you wanna bet that you aren't supposed to test god--when you know god's gonna lose?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Omen

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #70 on: September 23, 2011, 04:19:36 PM »
If you are mocking Christians on this site (easy to do with your world view, I understand), He is knocking.

I've been accused of mocking and persecuting christians when I defend science, education, the free exchange of ideas, christians not perceived as christian enough, or human rights.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline jtp56

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #71 on: September 25, 2011, 06:05:01 PM »
My apologies to the moderator, I am reading and responding to all the posts.  Trying to be brief.

Zankuu: “Of all the books in the bible to quote you choose John, the Gospel that the vast majority of biblical scholars view as the most irreconcilable and unreliable book in the entire NT. Nice.”

It’s amazing how your side considers themselves experts on everything, including the Bible.  John was an eye witness to Jesus; which is new regarding books of antiquity.  The book does not contradict the other 3 gospels or the Bible.  The problem with your side is the: “In the beginning” part, which gets your guys panties in a wad.  That’s why they come up with lines like “the vast majority of biblical scholars” blah, blah.

And, I know, science is real.  What does that have to do with my arguments?
 
Alzeal: I tried to “use Einstein and Sagan to give yourself (jtp56) credibility. Yet here you (jtp56) denounce it and use it with sarcasm and mockery.”  I didn’t think I mocked them, I thought I quoted them accurately.  Didn’t Einstein, a Jew, state that God doesn’t play by chance, that He doesn’t roll dice?  Your world view/faith is grounded in chance and dice.  I like Einstein a lot.  Although lately they (your side) are wondering if some neutrinos reached Italy from CERN at a speed faster than light, contradicting Einstein. Gosh, I thought you guys had it all figured out.

An aside: I wish they would change the name of another boson particle to the “magic particle” and not the “God particle”.  Why did they choose the name "God Particle?" since there obviously is not God?

Alzeal: Concerning us knuckle draggers quoting scripture: “Because the end result is simply going to be the same.” So your end result doesn’t change (e.g. No God)?  How do we differ?

Hatter23: “You can't use scientific method to prove any of this because it is an unfalsifiable claim.” Hatter23 you’re an idiot! Tell me what the scientific method is.  Man up and either stop posting or know what you’re talking about.  What is the scientific method?

Velkyn:  Oh man.  You were lazy on your last response.  Reality and Truth and evidence, blah, blah.  “I use science every single day”…..Duh.  My food is cold in the fridge, my car starts and runs, if I’m flying somewhere I can be at 30,000 feet in a thin aluminum tube with wings, I take meds, etc.  Come on.  Herein lies the problem: Origins should really be dealt with and taught in philosophy, not science class, no matter what you believe.  And it was that way until around the 19th century.  And don’t give me crap about how we’ve gotten smarter…..really?

You lost me on this one Velkyn.....: I said: “if you want to be a hero among the BBT and evolution crowd, just write the following: In the beginning was star stuff.  All things came into being through this stuff, and apart from Star Stuff nothing came into being that has come into being."  So you plagiarize the Bible....Your guys won't know.  And we're just idiots, who'll listen to us?”

Velkyn responded: “Why would I ever do that since it’s wrong from the evidence we see, you know that evidence that is from the science you use every day like a hypocrite?”   
Huh?  So what was in the beginning?  Not star stuff?  I mean the stuff we’re made up of?  The stuff the primordial gooz was made up of?  Again, I think you were just being lazy.  If so, I’ll quit now that I’m ready to use “science” to trash your side.  Little trash talk there, I usually use it on the golf course only, another reason I’m so slow in responding.

Truthseeker: “Scientific Fact: The Earth is Spherical. Bible "Truth": The Earth is Flat.”  You’re and idiot like hatter.  Man up.  Job 26:7 “He spreads out the northern skies over empty space;  He suspends the earth over nothing” round like a ball, a sphere.  Light to govern the night. He also made the stars. “God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.”  It was a “scientist” who gave us a flat earth. Remember Columbus, that religious nut?; you know; that sexist, racist, homophobe, that set out (kinda) to prove the earth was round?  He really set out to find a alternate trade route to India since the Muslims conquered Constantinople. Science in the day was:  “The earth is flat, can’t you see?” (granted, round earth/flat earth was arguable in the day, even Christians at the time were duped by science just like a lot of them are today.)

Truthseeker makes the very accurate and true point that Adam did not die (by your definition) when he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.  If you read the Bible, it won’t take long to find out that the Biblical definition of death is separation from God, not actually croaking.  We all start out separated from God, the rest (today) depends on our response to the gospel.

In answer to nogodsforme’s faith challenge:  I’ll take the book with the pages that are most flammable. I’ll go it alone if that’s OK; it’s more difficult helping 20 others survive.  Can I get a loin cloth and a buck knife?  A 45 ACP would be nice.  I take it from your “faith challenge” that life’s experiences weren’t supposed to matter?

And finally Omen:  Science needs defending?  Come on, I thought science stood on its own?  By the way, do you think a neutrino exceeded the speed of light?
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Ivellios

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #72 on: September 25, 2011, 10:52:43 PM »
A) Please learn to Quote, it makes replies a little bit easier. That way we know where the original person's quote ends and your statement begins. Thank you.

Truthseeker: “Scientific Fact: The Earth is Spherical. Bible "Truth": The Earth is Flat.”  You’re and idiot like hatter.  Man up.  Job 26:7 “He spreads out the northern skies over empty space;  He suspends the earth over nothing” round like a ball, a sphere.

There is nothing in that verse to indicate that the Earth is a Sphere. It could very well be a disk shaped plater. Case in point: You know this very well since the bolded portion IS NOT part of the verse, as they're NOT included with the quotation marks. It just states the Earth, whether flat or round, is suspended over nothing, as opposed to being on the back of a turtle like Genbu.

Pagans worshipped many Gods, the Jews worshipped one.
Pagans worship on Sunday mornings (morning of the 1st day), Jews worship at night on the 7th day.
Pagans face East[1] when they Worship, Jews faced west[2].
You have Jews, and you have Gentiles[3]

Like incest, the only reson this was put in, was to be different from pagans. The fact they were right about something was no more than a coincidence.

Light to govern the night. He also made the stars. “God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” 

Incorrect. There is no "Vault." The rains don't come from over 14 Billion Light years away. "The waters above" are above the sun, the moon and the firmament according to the Bible. If you actually check out Hebrew and other Middle Eastern Cosmology/Mythology The "Firmament" is an Arch[4], ie Dome. Look at pictures how the Jews Actually thought the Earth was at the time before humans found out the Earth was round. "The waters above" was explaing why water falls from above AND why the sky is Blue. It was NOT referring to the clouds, after all, the Bible says Clouds are how God clothes himself[5].

“scientist” who gave us a flat earth.

So you're asserting that only "scientists" said the Earth was flat but everyone else on the planet knew the Earth was round? Incorrect. Everyone thought the Earth was flat. It was Obvious to primitive man the Earth was flat. You climb a mountain and look around and it was obvious the Earth was a flat circle.  It was scientists that discovered that the Earth was really round.

Remember Columbus, that religious nut?; you know; that sexist, racist, homophobe, that set out (kinda) to prove the earth was round? 

Lots of personal attacks. Seems to be quite typical of you. A mature adult would be able to participate in a discussion/arguement without having to resort to personal attacks. I'm not discussing CC, I'm referring to the personal attacks against Hatter and I. No need to be calling people idiots or worse.

 I don't know him personally. I do know he:

He really set out to find a alternate trade route to India since the Muslims conquered Constantinople.

I heard about how he grew up watching ths ships appear on the horizon, mast first and as the ships got closer you could see more and more of it, as if it was rising out of the sea. But he knew it wasn't rising out of the sea but traveling on top of it.

Science in the day was:  “The earth is flat, can’t you see?” (granted, round earth/flat earth was arguable in the day, even Christians at the time were duped by science just like a lot of them are today.)

Ignorant folk thought the Earth was flat. Since the Round Earth conflicted with Religious Doctrine/Dogma. Are you a Poe? Christians were kept ignorant BY THE CHURCH. Because an Ignorant population can be CONTROLLED more easilly. They, the Church, Declared it Heresey for the common man/woman to even Read the most important document to Christians, the Bible, and delclared every other work Heretical. Work, pay your tithe, shut up and obey is all the Church wants of people. Christians were duped by the very fact they were Christians. The RCC had the wool pulled over thier eyes and with the False Hope/Coercion/Terrorism methods religious circles employ, they had them duped, hook, line and sinker. The RCC did all it could to put out all "heretical" beliefs, like the Earth is not the Center of the solar System/Universe and put people to death because of it. It wasn't "Science says the Earth is flat," it Religious Centers like the RCC, "We need to put to death anyone that says ANYTHING that contradicts Scripture."

Truthseeker makes the very accurate and true point that Adam did not die (by your definition)

By "my definition?" As I invented a meaning for the word 'Die'? It is not "my definition." "To die" has it's very own definition that is known fully by almost 7 Billion people on this planet. Die and Death are not something I made up. They are not something defined by me. You have clearly made up your own definition by this:

If you read the Bible, it won’t take long to find out that the Biblical definition of death is separation from God, not actually croaking.  We all start out separated from God, the rest (today) depends on our response to the gospel.

If "death" is separation from God... wasn't that supposed to be 'Hell'? Anyways, following that: I am seperate from God. Therefore I am according to your definition dead. When I "my definition" die, I will still be seperated from god so I'll still be dead.  :?   :-\   :o   &)  WTF!!?  Seriously!? This makes no sense.


And finally Omen:  Science needs defending?  Come on, I thought science stood on its own?  By the way, do you think a neutrino exceeded the speed of light?

We're still learning stuff everyday. See? There's something that wasn't told about from the All-Knowing God because primitive man didn't know it. 

My post about Job, and how it points to a Flat Earth.


I didn't even cover the whole "clay that has been pressed into a seal." Which should be obvious is you know what a seal is. Hint: There's 7 on 1 in Revelation. 7 Spheres on a scroll? Nah, 7 Flat Seals.
 1. Rising Sun
 2. Setting Sun
 3. everybody else.
 4. as it looked in the drawings
 5. why you cannot see God when you look up.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 11:00:12 PM by TruthSeeker »

Offline Hatter23

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #73 on: September 26, 2011, 07:15:33 AM »

Hatter23: “You can't use scientific method to prove any of this because it is an unfalsifiable claim.” Hatter23 you’re an idiot! Tell me what the scientific method is.  Man up and either stop posting or know what you’re talking about.  What is the scientific method?

I know what I am talking about; sceintific method cannot be applied to unfalsifiable calims. The generic claim: God, is not falsifiable. Scientific Method can be looked up on the internet. Hypothesis, test to see if the hypothesis is correct, if portions are false, revise hypothesis. The claim "god" or "dragon in my garage" if you allow for the same level of apologia are equally unfalsifiable, and equally stupid.

So, here's a thought. Instead of simply calling me an idiot, show where I am wrong. You know, verify or falsify that hypothesis, rather than relying on just name calling.


« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 08:27:49 AM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline screwtape

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #74 on: September 26, 2011, 08:15:37 AM »
jpt56

Please learn to use the quoting function.  It will enhance your ability to communicate here and help the rest of us understand what you mean. 

This link takes you to the Quoting FAQ, the Quoting Guide and the Users' Guide to Posting.  To practice your quoting skills, use the Test Area

Please do it before your next post.  Thanks.

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Offline gonegolfing

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #75 on: September 26, 2011, 08:30:17 AM »

Hatter23: “You can't use scientific method to prove any of this because it is an unfalsifiable claim.” Hatter23 you’re an idiot! Tell me what the scientific method is.  Man up and either stop posting or know what you’re talking about.  What is the scientific method?

I know what I am talking about; sceintific method cannot be applied to falsifiable calims. The generic claim: God, is not falsifiable. Scientific Method can be looked up on the internet. Hypothesis, test to see if the hypothesis is correct, if portions are false, revise hypothesis. The claim "god" or "dragon in my garage" if you allow for the same level of apologia are equally unfalsifiable, and equally stupid.

So, here's a thought. Instead of simply calling me an idiot, show where I am wrong. You know, verify or falsify that hypothesis, rather than relying on just name calling.

He's resorted to ad hominem... Game over for him.... He's feeling overwhelmed and defeated so he starts with the name calling out of frustration.

He can't help himself mate. He, like the most of them suffering this mental abnormality, foolishly think that name calling is supposed to support his case and claims.

He needs to be careful and remember though, that there is the apperance of being an idiot, and then actually being an idiot   ;D
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #76 on: September 26, 2011, 09:00:45 AM »
Back to the question.

Finding Jesus is like finding any other proposed solution to the world’s problems. There has been Communism, National Socialism, Capitalism, Despotism, Benevolence, etc., but no single overall solution.

However, the prophets of each system attempt to persuade people that theirs is the only way.

Theirs is not, never has been and never will be the only way.

There is no “way.”

There is no single solution because we do not control the world. Because we do not control the world, nature throws things at us that we didn’t expect (Fukushima, the Tsunami of 2006, the economic collapse, war, famine, changing climate, etc.) and we can do nothing about these things.

There is no “way.” But people like to think that there might be, and so they believe in any one of many ideologies. When things go wrong, people use the “No True Scotsman” argument and say, “Well of course this failed, that is because it is not in line with what the leader said!”

You should also believe that things that fail are caused solely by people who don’t believe, because if we all believed then surely His Words/the words of the Great Leader would be the last and final truth and everything would simply have to work wouldn't they?

“Finding Jesus” is to buy everything, lock, stock and barrel, and to believe that His teachings are the solution to everything, even if it means believing impossible things, accepting inhumane things and denying the truth of your eyes.

But this is true of any single ideology; Communism, National Socialism, Capitalism, Feudal system, Democracy, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Utilitarianism, etc.


« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 09:02:41 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Ivellios

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #77 on: September 26, 2011, 10:02:57 AM »

There is no “way.”

Yesterday I was watching a show about the "Little Ice Age," one of the things it touched upon was the "way" of Agriculture that had been proven successful for the preceding hundreds of years no longer worked. England could no longer support vinyards and many other changes. Many insisted on doing it the old ways, to their peril, and for some thier entire civilization, to become just a footnote[1] in history.

The Earth is always changing. Biology is adapting or becomming extinct. There is no "way," because the conditions for survival tomorrow could be considerably different than today.

The "way" in biblical times involved the opening of windows in the firmament so the "waters above" could fall as rain. Droughts happened because those windows were barred. Earthquakes happened because God shook the pillars of the Earth. We know today this was just superstitious imagination from a primative people.

Things change with time. You either adapt or you fade away.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #78 on: September 26, 2011, 10:52:43 AM »
Velkyn:  Oh man.  You were lazy on your last response.  Reality and Truth and evidence, blah, blah.  “I use science every single day”…..Duh.  My food is cold in the fridge, my car starts and runs, if I’m flying somewhere I can be at 30,000 feet in a thin aluminum tube with wings, I take meds, etc.  Come on.  Herein lies the problem: Origins should really be dealt with and taught in philosophy, not science class, no matter what you believe.  And it was that way until around the 19th century.  And don’t give me crap about how we’ve gotten smarter…..really?
How unsurprising.  I do love the ad hominem attacks and the lack of actual answers.  Yes, jtp, you use science every day and yes, you are a hypocrite.  Tah-dah.  And no origins don’t need to be dealt with by religion or philosophy.  We can deal with them perfectly fine with science.  I know, I know, poor you because if we don’t throw up our hands and say “goddidit” about origins, that means your religion and your philosophy have little worth to them.  I do love the “it that way until the 19th century”.  So?  We also had people insisting that all disease was god’s will before the 19th century and people dying of things that were preventable, if that idiocy had been ignored.   If pre-19th century stuff was just so great, I do wonder, why do you use anti-biotics?  Computers?  Cars?  Oh yes, because you are a hypocrite.   
Quote
You lost me on this one Velkyn.....: I said: “if you want to be a hero among the BBT and evolution crowd, just write the following: In the beginning was star stuff.  All things came into being through this stuff, and apart from Star Stuff nothing came into being that has come into being."  So you plagiarize the Bible....Your guys won't know.  And we're just idiots, who'll listen to us?”

Velkyn responded: “Why would I ever do that since it’s wrong from the evidence we see, you know that evidence that is from the science you use every day like a hypocrite?”   
Huh?  So what was in the beginning?  Not star stuff?  I mean the stuff we’re made up of?  The stuff the primordial gooz was made up of?  Again, I think you were just being lazy.  If so, I’ll quit now that I’m ready to use “science” to trash your side.  Little trash talk there, I usually use it on the golf course only, another reason I’m so slow in responding.
  How cute.  No, jtp, there was not ‘star stuff’ whatever that is “in the beginning’ and whatever else you tried to say that was incomprehensible.  Right now, we just don’t know.  So, unlike you, I am not inclined to lie to people or to try to change the goalposts.  You are just one more rather pitiable Christian who tried so hard to show his god existed.  Then when shown that he’s ignorant even in the subjects he tried to parade around as “evidence”, tries to ignore that.    You see, your creation myth fails again and again, and no, I won’t use it since it’s garbage. 
Oh yes, and as I have found time and again, atheists often know the bible much mor than theists.  Why is that?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 10:54:54 AM by velkyn »
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Offline Omen

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #79 on: September 26, 2011, 11:03:27 AM »
And finally Omen:  Science needs defending?  Come on, I thought science stood on its own?  By the way, do you think a neutrino exceeded the speed of light?

Yes, science needs defending.  A significant portion of christians actively embrace an anti-scientific agenda by trying to undermine science education in public schools.  They target imagined political issues that they wish to deny/oppose such as global warming, cloning, stem cell research, and of course evolution.  They work to stifle research by cutting funding, they work to rewrite history ( such as in the recent debacle with texas social studies ), they work to undermine the language in the education system which effectively downplays science as a method and introduces anti-scientific assertions that undermine the ability for the scientific method to function, and they use a collective group of PR/legal firms with no one actively doing any kind of 'science' at all.

Many such examples involve forcing religion into public schools through secret dealings with education board members, much of which has been exposed multiple times through the many legal challenges that have been brought to court.  The irony is that more often than not it is fellow christian parents/students that have to defend themselves from other christians trying to force their sectarian religious belief into a public institution.  The irony continues in that many such parents/students are hatefully denigrated and socially isolated in the public as 'atheist' despite not being atheist.  Hence my comment about defending christians from christians that don't perceive them as christian enough.  It really is quite easy to persecute a christian and I take great joy in it, all you have to do is prevent them from persecuting someone else.

Jtp56, why is it that you can't proselytize your religious beliefs without sounding like a used car salesman?
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #80 on: September 26, 2011, 03:30:15 PM »

He's resorted to ad hominem... Game over for him.... He's feeling overwhelmed and defeated so he starts with the name calling out of frustration.

He can't help himself mate. He, like the most of them suffering this mental abnormality, foolishly think that name calling is supposed to support his case and claims.

He needs to be careful and remember though, that there is the apperance of being an idiot, and then actually being an idiot   ;D

I find particularly amusing is that the post he is reponding to:

Quote

You can't use scientific method to prove any of this because it is an unfalsifiable claim. Every religion makes these and they conflict with each other and observable reality.

There is nothing to separate Christianity from any other woo claim other than its popularity.

So you are the same as some gibbering tribal native talking about their Volcano god.

If not, show me why without committing a logical fallacy

And all he does is an Ad Hom attack.

Fall in fear before the Volcano god.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 03:32:18 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #81 on: September 26, 2011, 04:01:09 PM »
Quote
finding jesus

Is this like a weres waldo puzzle cuz i like them thar puzzles
When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”--- Sinclair Lewis

I believe there is something out there watching over us. Unfortunately, it's the government.

Offline Ivellios

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #82 on: September 27, 2011, 02:52:46 AM »
Lightning flashes,
thunder rolls,
and in an instant. you have missed seeing.

If you suddenly realize the candlelight is fire,
the meal was cooked long ago.

Offline kardula

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #83 on: September 27, 2011, 04:50:29 AM »
Truth is reality.  Science isn't truth.
I found myself facepalming in disbelief at this statement. Can you elaborate a little bit on how science isn't truth?

Also, if truth=reality then how do you personally explain the reality that there is no empirical evidence for god?

Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #84 on: September 27, 2011, 11:00:39 AM »
Truth is reality.  Science isn't truth.
I found myself facepalming in disbelief at this statement. Can you elaborate a little bit on how science isn't truth?

Also, if truth=reality then how do you personally explain the reality that there is no empirical evidence for god?

reality is what you perceive it to be
When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”--- Sinclair Lewis

I believe there is something out there watching over us. Unfortunately, it's the government.

Offline Zankuu

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #85 on: September 27, 2011, 11:06:51 AM »
reality is what you perceive it to be

Nope. Reality is the state in which things actually exist. This doesn't apply to the reality for the guy doing hallucinogens with a psychedelic room full of magical talking Panda bears. He's perceiving reality to be that way, but that's not reality.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Hatter23

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Re: "Finding Jesus"
« Reply #86 on: September 27, 2011, 11:12:52 AM »
Truth is reality.  Science isn't truth.
I found myself facepalming in disbelief at this statement. Can you elaborate a little bit on how science isn't truth?

Also, if truth=reality then how do you personally explain the reality that there is no empirical evidence for god?
Science isn't actually truth.  Neither is religion. Science is a methodology that deals in facts, and attempts to model reality. It works at that.  Religion is a methodology that deals in myths, and attempts to shape people's perception of reality. It works at that.

« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 11:28:54 AM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.