Author Topic: One logical reason god might not heal amputees  (Read 14070 times)

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Offline monkeymind

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #203 on: March 14, 2012, 03:53:44 PM »
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i would like to know another's perspective who will not discount what i have seen for myself and believe to be true....any takers?
Sorry, don't know how to not discount anecdotal evidence. Do you still want my perspective?
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Offline monkeymind

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #204 on: March 14, 2012, 04:01:17 PM »
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It's been documented to me--video, testimony and otherwise--of peoples limbs growing back because of prayer.

Now, this is interesting. Did you see the video, or you are saying someone else says they saw the video of a limb regrowing?
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline Dante

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #205 on: March 14, 2012, 04:18:15 PM »
so the issue i guess i want to raise is what about the people and testimonies of people who have had limbs grow back?

i can't just discredit them because the masses haven't heard of them, or rather, they are dismissed as superstition by people who have not witnessed things first hand

Well, you absolutely could just discredit them because testimony can be very inaccurate. Also, do you ever wonder why these things usually seem to happen in far off, ill-developed lands, and never in western hospitals. You know, with real doctors present? Methinks there's a correlation there.

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i would like to know another's perspective who will not discount what i have seen for myself and believe to be true....any takers?

Many here, myself included, may end up believing that you believe what you saw was true, but we will always discount that which is unverifiable, either through reason, logic, or empirical evidence.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline morsecodet

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #206 on: March 14, 2012, 04:22:01 PM »
You're welcome to reply however you would like as long as you understand i know what i have seen and believe

i pretense all of this with high doubts that anyone here will believe me in that lest they see it themselves....but truth is truth regardless of any given person's belief and i can only tell you what i saw and know...i've personally prayed for and seen people healed of colds and broken bones that accept the healing, have seen the miracle, and still reject the offer to follow God....

i also pretense this with the fact i do not have all the knowledge you may ask....in fact i have many questions myself....but there's a promise in my faith that says if you seek wholeheartedly you will find...and i myself struggle with seeking wholeheartedly....

i further pretense this with the fact that i question you're use of the word anecdotal, because i've found such things to be rather commonplace in the true church and rather unpublicized outside of it....however not so much so in among not so much everyone that calls themselves a christian or thinks they understand God....and find that even among the masses of these people much less the rest of the world there is a belief that God is somehow distant or dead....though i was trying to offer specific testimony so i can understand if anyone cares to try to rationalize it away....i know enough to know belief cannot be rationalized into...it comes only through revelation and that is of God....my goal is not to convince anyone of anything....just offer a response and ask a few questions of my own....

Offline monkeymind

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #207 on: March 14, 2012, 04:24:40 PM »
Did you see the video yourself?
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #208 on: March 14, 2012, 04:28:01 PM »
morsecodet
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I question your use of the word anecdotel.
Anecdotal:

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1a : of, relating to, or consisting of anecdotes <an anecdotal biography> b : anecdotic 2 <my anecdotal uncle>
2: based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers <anecdotal evidence>
3: of, relating to, or being the depiction of a scene suggesting a story <anecdotal details>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anecdotal
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 04:29:56 PM by monkeymind »
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline morsecodet

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #209 on: March 14, 2012, 05:22:21 PM »
so first in response to that video question

most of it has been testimony from supported missionaries but there was a few videos i was thinking of...the one in specific that comes to mind--it was more of a here's my limb and here's a picture of me from before where i didn't have the limb....in that case it was in a different country....and it was more of a sidenote on a larger video of testimony....they captured the getting up and walking one's on film.....the limb growing not so much....believe or not i would certianly see how it would be hard to catch that on film....but i can understand if you discredit this entirely because its not what you wanted, yes?

i have a friend who's been disabled from birth, has a underdeveloped hand....there is a group of us that want to gather the faith to pray for her....but honestly she's quite satisfied and accepting of it, so we've been hesitant....because the point is to show people God loves them, and bring freedom....it does take something of faith to pray....this is a struggle for me....

now that i think about it, there is a woman in my bible study who is "in the process" of being healed of fallen arches...though i don't know if that counts either....i say in the process because the Lord told her to go for prayer every week that she would receive healing....and she's half way there....



on the discrediting of testimonies in far off lands

this is true...i could....but then there's still testimony among people i know at my home church in Wisconsin....sprains, strains, colds, flues, broken bones, strokes, cancers and tumors, emphaziema....my old paster was born with a bum foot that he never had full use of....we prayed one day and he gained full use of it, but it didn't grow into a normal foot though....those are the one's i remember.....there was an aids case, but i think that might have been a testimony from a vistior....there was one time though were they brought in xrays of things....as in this is before prayer, this is after....i can't remember what it was though...i've always been more drawn to/impressed by the emotional/psychological healing/internal healing/deliverance than the physical, though there is certainly a culture for it there, and we've been recently exploring how the two are vastly interconnected....

and even if i discredit that, there's still what i've seen with my own two eyes....

and even if i discredit that, there's still what i've experienced for myself....

don't get me wrong, i'm always one to be skeptical of things....more or less because false prophets are said to carry the same signs and wonders....i'm a firm believer that any testimony you hear should be discerned, because things of that nature will create false faith as much as the real thing....and as far as things happening in places without doctors....you have to understand, desperation tends to humble people enough to ask with earnest hearts....i know even for myself in asking growing up around medical treatment has led to this mentality that if you're sick or hurt, you get help from a medical doctor only and if they can't help you you're screwed so give up.....both cases i find challenge faith....

i want to pretense also, i am by no means saying that God doesn't use doctors to heal people....in a lot of ways i feel medicine is a gift from the lord that, like any other, is meant to be stewarded for its proper use.....luke was a doctor....found out the other day he cared for paul...a lot....




and to the question of logic and empirical evidence....

at the moment actually working to address that....by doing extensive research to explore, gather, and present the "logic" as it were of faith....because there seems to be this lie floating around that God isn't logical....this is a harder question to answer because there is sooooooo much to discuss as to why it is, that the actual framework of it takes so much time to write on a piece of paper, as its been going for months and we've got one section of many of one branch of six of a larger presentation half completed, much less explain it to another person so they understand it.....its like asking me as a math researcher to explain all the truths of mathematics to you in a single go.....i can try but we'll be here a while...

not to mention...or rather as i mentioned....i've had more than one case know God is real, and Jesus is Lord, and still refuse to follow...not because of logical reason....because they've been hurt, can't forgive, didn't get what they wanted, the church is messed up, or something along those lines....and in a lot of cases, because something like that is there, and you can see its there quite obviously, they will use inductive assumptive reasoning to justify whatever arguement against God that they want.....and in a lot of cases some baby christian will try to do the same right back to them, basically turning people away (the presentation i mentioned actually being done through deductive axiomatic reasoning for those that understand the difference)....point is, its rarely logic that keeps someone from believing or keeps them strong in their faith....it's a tool not a foundation....

as far as empirical evidence is concerned, most people dismiss most of what i could present as anecdotal.....and it tends to vary what any given person means by "empirical" and "evidence"....in both cases when talking to an individual i prefer to know what their definition of these terms are....because if i guess at it, we could be talking all day....

Offline morsecodet

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #210 on: March 14, 2012, 05:43:15 PM »
i should correct myself in my last statement before someone does it for me....

when i say that its a lie that God isn't logical....i don't mean that everything He does makes sense to me or a lot of people or even anyone....i do know that what He does is not without reason....that's more a better way to say it.....about .5 percent of the time i will understand it in the moment.....about 5 percent of the time i will understand it afterwards.....

so statistically speaking that may seem insignificant and dismissable, but it has brought the understanding that...well.....He's God....its not my burden to understand EVERYthing He does, if i can understand enough for what it necessary, with the promise of if you seek more understanding, you'll find it....and getting to that 5 percent was rather an intense process....

i wanted to address that anyway because if there's another christian out there of likeminded thought, you likely have watched the ever popular movie Finger of God, and those interested can find it on you tube....idk if furious love (sequel) is on there or not....in any case....there's a lot more testimonies like the ones presented there that are more challenging in my mind than God growing out limbs....like raising people from the dead...and the ever popular debate as to what the difference is in terms of resurrection....point--a God that cannot grow out a limb is not big enough to be my God

Online nogodsforme

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #211 on: March 14, 2012, 06:55:13 PM »
I want to address one of the points made by our new member, morsecodet. Evidently, 9 out of 10 people have a leg of the wrong length, requiring prayers to "pop" the leg out to the correct length. Let's assume this is all true, for purposes of argumentation.

1)If our legs are the wrong lengths, it is because god made them that way.
2)If god made them that way, it must be for a reason, that is, god wanted the legs that way.
3)If god wanted our legs to be that way, why would anyone try to "heal" our mis-aligned legs?
4)If god intended for our legs to be mis-aligned, how in heck does a prayer to the same god make the legs the right length?

The same problem arises with any prayer healing. Why does god sometimes change his mind about the asthma, cancer, back liquifying, fallen arches that he gave you in the first place? Anyone who can address this, would have my undying appreciation.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #212 on: March 14, 2012, 08:18:35 PM »
in writing this out i did realize something else....i have a couple friends that get distinct enjoyment of going around asking people if they have any pain in the lower back, legs, knees, joints, etc....they will measure the person's legs to see if they are even, because apparently this is a problem for 9 out of 10 people that causes such issues....something about misalignment of the spine....and in the event that they are uneven, pray for the leg to come out...i have not been around them when they've done this where it hasn't worked

One of the oldest tricks in the book, I'm afraid. The individual who is praying pulls the person's shoe out just a little bit so that both legs look even. The practice is discussed in detail here: https://grahamghana.wordpress.com/2011/02/10/pastor-you%E2%80%99re-pulling-my-leg/
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #213 on: March 14, 2012, 08:21:12 PM »
i've found such things to be rather commonplace in the true church and rather unpublicized outside of it

May I ask which church is the "true church"?
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

Offline morsecodet

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #214 on: March 14, 2012, 11:41:23 PM »
I want to address one of the points made by our new member, morsecodet. Evidently, 9 out of 10 people have a leg of the wrong length, requiring prayers to "pop" the leg out to the correct length. Let's assume this is all true, for purposes of argumentation.

1)If our legs are the wrong lengths, it is because god made them that way.
2)If god made them that way, it must be for a reason, that is, god wanted the legs that way.
3)If god wanted our legs to be that way, why would anyone try to "heal" our mis-aligned legs?
4)If god intended for our legs to be mis-aligned, how in heck does a prayer to the same god make the legs the right length?

The same problem arises with any prayer healing. Why does god sometimes change his mind about the asthma, cancer, back liquifying, fallen arches that he gave you in the first place? Anyone who can address this, would have my undying appreciation.

i should clarify....again my friend is the fanatic on this not me....i had a long conversation with him once on where this comes from and the science behind it....the misalignment as it were is something developed because of how we walk, carry things, etc.....the whole point is that it is not God's will for these things and he is a restorer of things to their proper place by His very nature....i don't know anyone that knows the lord and honestly believes the world is the way he wills it to be....that works even at the level of physical bodies....to claim that he wills things the way they are or that all disease is some form of punishment He's cursed you with stands quite contrary to the faith i know....by knowing the nature of my God i would argue that this is not how the world is designed...i'm curious to know how you argue the opposite...can you grant me your understanding on that?...as in what is it that makes you convinced he gave it to you in the first place?

in writing this out i did realize something else....i have a couple friends that get distinct enjoyment of going around asking people if they have any pain in the lower back, legs, knees, joints, etc....they will measure the person's legs to see if they are even, because apparently this is a problem for 9 out of 10 people that causes such issues....something about misalignment of the spine....and in the event that they are uneven, pray for the leg to come out...i have not been around them when they've done this where it hasn't worked

One of the oldest tricks in the book, I'm afraid. The individual who is praying pulls the person's shoe out just a little bit so that both legs look even. The practice is discussed in detail here: https://grahamghana.wordpress.com/2011/02/10/pastor-you%E2%80%99re-pulling-my-leg/

i do not doubt the false miracles of others....that was the comment i made earlier about discerning the difference....though maybe i should have been more clear.....because there are people that do the real miracle also that are false prophets....we never met the prophet but while in a college ministry there was one person mis-lead by him and it just about tore our group apart....not so fun...they're no joke....but that's been reconciled

this method you present actually doesn't make much sense to me because you can't test them without applied pressure at the heal to begin with....usually ask for a second or third opinion on measurement....and the point is more to deal with pain than anything else, which regardless of whether or not you think its a trick, still doesn't dismiss the absence of pain in what i've seen...i do know a case of a woman who received this and within a few days the pain coming back so we intercede with her to take hold of that healing and she hasn't had issues since....i guess my thought is that healing from a cold doesn't necessarily mean you'll never get sick again....its not out of my imagination that it could, but it doesn't mean that its necessarily likely....or even that the healing can't be robbed away...never had that happen...but the enemy has tried....as far as to the why i don't have much to that....

i'm not so much trying to argue the point but i find it difficult when i myself have done it....i've tried to describe what i've observed more than rationalize it...but please let me know if i am failing in this aspect....


i've found such things to be rather commonplace in the true church and rather unpublicized outside of it

May I ask which church is the "true church"?


i mean the people truly seeking the Lord....not the ones just observing him....one never knows the heart of another, but there's a big difference between showing up on sunday and letting God govern your life....knowing he's real and following are different....etc....does that help clarify?....its not so much about who knows what or does what....because there's an immaturity overall that there is a rising trend to address.....but really we're all a bunch of misfits....

Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #215 on: March 15, 2012, 12:03:10 AM »
i do not doubt the false miracles of others....that was the comment i made earlier about discerning the difference....though maybe i should have been more clear.....because there are people that do the real miracle also that are false prophets....we never met the prophet but while in a college ministry there was one person mis-lead by him and it just about tore our group apart....not so fun...they're no joke....but that's been reconciled

this method you present actually doesn't make much sense to me because you can't test them without applied pressure at the heal to begin with....usually ask for a second or third opinion on measurement....and the point is more to deal with pain than anything else, which regardless of whether or not you think its a trick, still doesn't dismiss the absence of pain in what i've seen...i do know a case of a woman who received this and within a few days the pain coming back so we intercede with her to take hold of that healing and she hasn't had issues since....i guess my thought is that healing from a cold doesn't necessarily mean you'll never get sick again....its not out of my imagination that it could, but it doesn't mean that its necessarily likely....or even that the healing can't be robbed away...never had that happen...but the enemy has tried....as far as to the why i don't have much to that....

i'm not so much trying to argue the point but i find it difficult when i myself have done it....i've tried to describe what i've observed more than rationalize it...but please let me know if i am failing in this aspect....

Well, I've heard a lot of testimony, but no one has ever been able to present me evidence of even one medically verifiable miracle. I have seen some medical documentation of cancers going into remission (which can happen naturally), have seen people get instant relief of headaches, colds, sore throats, but nothing that would fit the Biblical definition of "miraculous."


i mean the people truly seeking the Lord....not the ones just observing him....one never knows the heart of another, but there's a big difference between showing up on sunday and letting God govern your life....knowing he's real and following are different....etc....does that help clarify?....its not so much about who knows what or does what....because there's an immaturity overall that there is a rising trend to address.....but really we're all a bunch of misfits....

You do seem like a sincere person. Most people seem to have a more arrogant "my church is the true church" type of answer to this question. I would encourage you to make sure you're doing the right things for the right reasons, not out of fear that you'll go to hell if you don't, not just to please some deity, but do what's right because it is right. That is the purest kind of morality I've seen.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 12:05:01 AM by GodlessHeathen »
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

Offline morsecodet

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #216 on: March 15, 2012, 12:57:09 AM »
i do not doubt the false miracles of others....that was the comment i made earlier about discerning the difference....though maybe i should have been more clear.....because there are people that do the real miracle also that are false prophets....we never met the prophet but while in a college ministry there was one person mis-lead by him and it just about tore our group apart....not so fun...they're no joke....but that's been reconciled

this method you present actually doesn't make much sense to me because you can't test them without applied pressure at the heal to begin with....usually ask for a second or third opinion on measurement....and the point is more to deal with pain than anything else, which regardless of whether or not you think its a trick, still doesn't dismiss the absence of pain in what i've seen...i do know a case of a woman who received this and within a few days the pain coming back so we intercede with her to take hold of that healing and she hasn't had issues since....i guess my thought is that healing from a cold doesn't necessarily mean you'll never get sick again....its not out of my imagination that it could, but it doesn't mean that its necessarily likely....or even that the healing can't be robbed away...never had that happen...but the enemy has tried....as far as to the why i don't have much to that....

i'm not so much trying to argue the point but i find it difficult when i myself have done it....i've tried to describe what i've observed more than rationalize it...but please let me know if i am failing in this aspect....

Well, I've heard a lot of testimony, but no one has ever been able to present me evidence of even one medically verifiable miracle. I have seen some medical documentation of cancers going into remission (which can happen naturally), have seen people get instant relief of headaches, colds, sore throats, but nothing that would fit the Biblical definition of "miraculous."


i mean the people truly seeking the Lord....not the ones just observing him....one never knows the heart of another, but there's a big difference between showing up on sunday and letting God govern your life....knowing he's real and following are different....etc....does that help clarify?....its not so much about who knows what or does what....because there's an immaturity overall that there is a rising trend to address.....but really we're all a bunch of misfits....

You do seem like a sincere person. Most people seem to have a more arrogant "my church is the true church" type of answer to this question. I would encourage you to make sure you're doing the right things for the right reasons, not out of fear that you'll go to hell if you don't, not just to please some deity, but do what's right because it is right. That is the purest kind of morality I've seen.

are you kidding? I LOVE my God! He's amazing!....i know you probably hear that a lot but in a very legit way everything else by comparison just does not compare....my God is an active of God of justice and righteousness and radical love...and i could go on....we talk daily, have random adventures together, he cares for me quite well, helps me out with just about everything, spoils me rotten, brings me to new levels of freedom....i mean he tends to be far better than any God i would expect...its not just that He went out of His way to have a relationship with me but He keeps it going pretty much on his own....i mean i really enjoy my walk following him, and everything in me says following him is more than just right... salvation onto entirety just adds to that....i mean He is God, but not unapproachable....the concept that He is pleased with me not by what i do but because He's done is very foreign to a lot of people, but is fundamental to what i earnestly believe....i mean its like wanting to do what's right without the fear of messing up and the freedom to do it....that is the gospel, regardless of what some may say.....

i apologize sincerely that if by posting here i have enticed some sort of offence....this was a spontaneous thing i came across in researching the phrase "physician heal thyself" and trying to figure out what jesus meant when he said it....i posted here on a whim....normally i avoid things like this lest they be in person because they tend to get to heated for my taste...and i find a lot of people unreceptive and unwilling to listen so i try to save my energy for the ones that will....but i find that all of you have been kind to question, compared to what i normally come across...and i find that those that label themselves atheists tend to ask really good questions....and good questions can lead good answers....i tend to be a bit wordy and try to be thorough....so it may seem like i'm somehow more into this than i am...this is not my normal cup of tea as it were....

i mean this is a forum for people who label themselves basically anything not theist yes?  i mean there may be someone earnestly seeking answers in the crowd, and i'm willing to try to give answer to any question i'm in any sense familiar with.....but honestly speaking the Lord grants revelation not me.....i'm just siting here with a smile on my face because i get to talk about Him and that in itself makes me happy....i just really like talking about God....because to me He's just downright awesome.....

and i like talking with you guys because no one has denounced me as someone out to murder people or whatever other weird insults people come up with

:)

Offline Lurking

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #217 on: March 15, 2012, 01:54:45 AM »
Lurking - may I ask where you live?  I'd like to look more into what you've said - it's a nice arrow for a scientific quiver against the flood nonsense. :)
Hi, sorry for the late answer, Grimm. I live in  South Africa. My field of expertise is the coal seams around the Witbank area of the Main Karoo Basin (I do models of deposition of the coal-bearing sequences for mining companies). Currently we have around 3 000 working geologists in the country.

To get some proper information, you could start with the South African Journal of Geology. http://content.ajarchive.org/cdm4/index_03717208.php?CISOROOT=/03717208
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 02:25:58 AM by Lurking »

Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #218 on: March 15, 2012, 04:47:43 AM »
....normally i avoid things like this lest they be in person because they tend to get to heated for my taste...and i find a lot of people unreceptive and unwilling to listen so i try to save my energy for the ones that will....
Don't get too cozy, because we do demand evidence for theist's (and atheist's) assertions. And personal experience, while it may be powerful to you, is not evidence.

and i like talking with you guys because no one has denounced me as someone out to murder people or whatever other weird insults people come up with
I think most individual Christians are not out to murder people, although I would earnestly contend that organized religion has historically proven itself to be dangerous (even when Russia tried to make a religious-like system out of atheism). And organized religion is made up of individual followers. It all starts with not being willing to think critically and letting others do the thinking for them.
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

Offline velkyn

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #219 on: March 15, 2012, 08:42:58 AM »
are you kidding? I LOVE my God! He's amazing!....i know you probably hear that a lot but in a very legit way everything else by comparison just does not compare....my God is an active of God of justice and righteousness and radical love...and i could go on....
You could indeed go on, but without any evidence of your claims, they are just as much nonsense as any other theists.  Your god does nothing.  There is no evidence of your god at all.  You think that you are some special snowflake because *your* life is good and ignore all of the people who are just as much believers as you are, who suffer, starve, etc.  What ignorance and arrogance. 

many christians make claims of healings and of course haven't one scrap of evidence to support such nonsense.

EDIT:  Lurking, I didnt' know you were a geologist.  that's great.  :)
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 08:52:51 AM by velkyn »
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Offline Dante

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #220 on: March 15, 2012, 08:56:35 AM »
.....but honestly speaking the Lord grants revelation not me.....

Curious, why would a loving god grant revelation to some, but not the rest of us , and then cast us to hell for all eternity?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #221 on: March 15, 2012, 01:02:20 PM »
You need to read Romans:9, here is the gist, (i) God creates some people just to stoke the fires of Hell. (9:21-22) (ii) None of us know who these people are because God decides on his whim. (9:15-18) (iii) God does this just to show how Magnificent He is and for no other reason (9:23).

I would encourage you to read the chapter, but here are the most relevant verses:

Ro:9:15: For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Ro:9:16: So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Ro:9:17: For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Ro:9:18: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Ro:9:19: Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Ro:9:20: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Ro:9:21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Ro:9:22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Ro:9:23: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


This is the god that Christians think is really lovely.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #222 on: March 15, 2012, 11:09:24 PM »
i mean this is a forum for people who label themselves basically anything not theist yes?  i mean there may be someone earnestly seeking answers in the crowd, and i'm willing to try to give answer to any question i'm in any sense familiar with.....but honestly speaking the Lord grants revelation not me.....i'm just siting here with a smile on my face because i get to talk about Him and that in itself makes me happy....i just really like talking about God....because to me He's just downright awesome.....

If you want....to make a list of....people who might be interested....in converting....make sure my....name isn't on it. You'd be wasting.....ink.
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Offline morsecodet

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #223 on: March 17, 2012, 10:54:26 PM »
....normally i avoid things like this lest they be in person because they tend to get to heated for my taste...and i find a lot of people unreceptive and unwilling to listen so i try to save my energy for the ones that will....
Don't get too cozy, because we do demand evidence for theist's (and atheist's) assertions. And personal experience, while it may be powerful to you, is not evidence.

and i like talking with you guys because no one has denounced me as someone out to murder people or whatever other weird insults people come up with
I think most individual Christians are not out to murder people, although I would earnestly contend that organized religion has historically proven itself to be dangerous (even when Russia tried to make a religious-like system out of atheism). And organized religion is made up of individual followers. It all starts with not being willing to think critically and letting others do the thinking for them.

again most of these reasons are why i asked for a definition of evidence...if personal testimony of any given person is out....timing with prayer is out....news coincidence to prayer movements is out....via my undergrad i know there is research on the effect of religion as a social factor that influences and increases the insurance of happiness and utility, but that is more of a psychological study that i would expect to be dismissed as supporting evidence to a theist argument...along with any other psych study i've come across in terms of the effect of prayer on a person or anything like that......i've heard a number of talks about the science that's been proven out of scripture, not just the flood, but the firmament, the plagues, certain weather and astrological patterns, and different things--most of which i learned from my professors actually in the sense of either supporting the validity of scripture or against the argument for a God because there is a scientific explanation of how things happened, despite no explanation for the timing of improbabilistic events--but i myself have no resources on the subject other than a few websites and links to the Christians in Science ordeal in england...but as i myself am not a scientist in every field i leave the presentation of those arguments to those who are more inclined because a lot of those things are far more technical and out of my element as a researcher...and things like Case for Christ and Surprised by Joy that would follow a lot of that or the existence argument i haven't found very popular outside the Christian circle for the mere reason i find that anyone truly seeking to understand the faith find and experience it for themselves....

so i'm left with, as i understand it, the task of showing medical documentation that usually to me via privacy laws to begin with, if its even documented, on the effects of prayer....and not just there was a miraculous healing, but prayer also occurred and also was documented....though if i was in your shoes i would just argue, even if on film, all of this could have been forged, and ask for proof of that it actually happened....which comes down to someone saying it did, and we're back to personal testimony.....

so i'm still trying to figure out what you would accept as evidence....i don't mind the demand for evidence as much as the lack of definition....because as far as i can tell, anything i could present to you would just be dismissed on the argument that a God can't exist so that can't be valid....because even if i don't hold to the argument that the burden of proof is on those to disprove what has been claimed, then i still would require a definition or parameters for what good acceptable evidence is, lest you rather close the door and just decide that God does not exist for yourself and deny any evidence presented thereof, valid or not....

i agree with you on the second statement....i find Christians to be some of the most hurtful in my life because they don't always think and they're a little like children acting on impluse....i find this true of most people actually....that's why i say God's children are a bunch of misfits--because we're not perfect but trying to get there...



.....but honestly speaking the Lord grants revelation not me.....

Curious, why would a loving god grant revelation to some, but not the rest of us , and then cast us to hell for all eternity?

romans 9, while the person's interpretation of it directly contradicts the depiction and commission of man, not just in genesis, but elsewhere, isn't the worst example....it's basically paul saying he doesn't know, because he's lamenting for Israel (his jewish people) and its not for him to decide....i take the same stance of not knowing...but elsewhere he does talk about not hardening one own's heart so there is reference to the freedom of choice of response...hebrews 3 is the only one coming to mind off the top of my head....the parable of the sower of matt 13/luke 8 is Jesus's description of how things are received that he has to give...so i do think, like paul, there is something of how its received...i know its not a complete answer but i hope it helps....


i mean this is a forum for people who label themselves basically anything not theist yes?  i mean there may be someone earnestly seeking answers in the crowd, and i'm willing to try to give answer to any question i'm in any sense familiar with.....but honestly speaking the Lord grants revelation not me.....i'm just siting here with a smile on my face because i get to talk about Him and that in itself makes me happy....i just really like talking about God....because to me He's just downright awesome.....

If you want....to make a list of....people who might be interested....in converting....make sure my....name isn't on it. You'd be wasting.....ink.


you missed the whole point on that NOT being my intention in any sense....glad to know you're listening

are you kidding? I LOVE my God! He's amazing!....i know you probably hear that a lot but in a very legit way everything else by comparison just does not compare....my God is an active of God of justice and righteousness and radical love...and i could go on....
You could indeed go on, but without any evidence of your claims, they are just as much nonsense as any other theists.  Your god does nothing.  There is no evidence of your god at all.  You think that you are some special snowflake because *your* life is good and ignore all of the people who are just as much believers as you are, who suffer, starve, etc.  What ignorance and arrogance. 

many christians make claims of healings and of course haven't one scrap of evidence to support such nonsense.

EDIT:  Lurking, I didnt' know you were a geologist.  that's great.  :)

again give me definition, because all the evidence i have thus named has been declared of in-consequence....because my God does a lot, and there is evidence, and i'm trying to figure out what specifically you're looking for, so when i come across it, i can give it to you...as far as the personal attack on my-ever-so-good life, be careful of who you judge lest you be judged.....you know nothing of my life except the part of my faith which i shared with you....i've been ostracized, slandered, and spent most of the last year without consistent food, home, job, or money mostly because of some person i met while working that sent me through a few hospital visits and due to the incompetence of protection under world systems led me to flee my life....all of which was provided for by the Lord, in some cases through the grace of his followers, and in some cases i just don't know about....i don't claim to know starvation as it is in somalia but have done my share of suffering just like everyone else, and still praise the lord....which is not limited to trying to provide for somalia and end human trafficking in the state...my point isn't to sound self-righteous because i've done my share of wicked acts....my point is don't judge my life before you walk a mile in my shoes lest you find yourself in the very hypocrisy i can't stand of my fellow believers....because to say i don't care or haven't the slightest idea what suffering is not the case at all

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #224 on: March 17, 2012, 11:18:20 PM »
i mean this is a forum for people who label themselves basically anything not theist yes?  i mean there may be someone earnestly seeking answers in the crowd, and i'm willing to try to give answer to any question i'm in any sense familiar with.....but honestly speaking the Lord grants revelation not me.....i'm just siting here with a smile on my face because i get to talk about Him and that in itself makes me happy....i just really like talking about God....because to me He's just downright awesome.....

If you want....to make a list of....people who might be interested....in converting....make sure my....name isn't on it. You'd be wasting.....ink.

you missed the whole point on that NOT being my intention in any sense....glad to know you're listening

Oh drats. Here I am, waiting for the day that a theist here both gets my point and gets my joke.

My response was not in fearing you would put me on a list or anything, but aimed more at your writing style, which is maddening. You are one step away from writing in ancient Greek, with no spaces between words and no punctuation. I'm like this really old 60 something guy who is trying to read you wall of words, seeking clues as to what you are actually saying, and it's already hard enough, then you do this ... and this ... and this.... (sorry, misspelled the first two, only used 3, but you get the point. I hope).

If you've gone to college, then presumably you know how to write in complete sentences, use paragraphs, represent your religion by sounding educated, stuff like that. I'm sure all your friends think it's cute when you say "dot dot dot dot", but when writing, you should put some effort into considering the reader as well as yourself.

I have no objection whatsoever of having a conversation with you. But if I have to work that hard to figure out what you're saying, it isn't worth the trouble.

If you'll just pretend like you're being graded, I'll give you and 'A' for effort.
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #225 on: March 18, 2012, 12:11:17 AM »
again most of these reasons are why i asked for a definition of evidence...if personal testimony of any given person is out....timing with prayer is out....news coincidence to prayer movements is out

Do not feel like we are singling your religion out with this.  The reason personal testimony, prayer timing, and coincidences are out for your religion is the same reason it's out for every other religion in the world.  Be honest here.. if someone came up to you with personal testimony of Zeus, what would you think of them?  Why you would think your religion deserves to be treated otherwise is very much beyond me. 

so i'm left with, as i understand it, the task of showing medical documentation that usually to me via privacy laws to begin with, if its even documented, on the effects of prayer....and not just there was a miraculous healing, but prayer also occurred and also was documented....though if i was in your shoes i would just argue, even if on film, all of this could have been forged, and ask for proof of that it actually happened....which comes down to someone saying it did, and we're back to personal testimony.....

Have you heard the term, 'correlation does not imply causation'?  It applies here. 

There has never been a 'miraculous' healing in the old sense of the word.  To me, miraculous implies impossible without the aid of the supernatural.  Highly improbable healings happen all the time.  As do highly improbable deaths.  Why is it that Christians never use highly improbable deaths as evidence for their God?  Both of them happen regularly on a planet with 7 billion people. 

so i'm still trying to figure out what you would accept as evidence...

A world that appears as if a supernatural entity exists and impacts it regularly.  A world that could not be explained in any other way except the supernatural.  A bible that had prophecies predictive of exact future events with names, dates, times, places, etc.  A world where only one religion gained traction, and it was yours.  Frequent, well documented arm and leg replacements, eye replacements, burned skin replacement ONLY on people who prayed to your specific God for them, and ONLY after the limb grew back with the words "Jesus was here" tattooed in a color none of us have ever seen before.  People praying for their cancer to go away having a statistically beneficial chance at survival over those who do not.  News reports that show frequent things that could ONLY have been done by a supernatural hand (such as "Captain Sully's landing on the Hudson river.  Instead of landing safely in the water, the whole thing turned into a concrete landing strip).  There are literally millions of things that COULD happen.  But the fact is, there is nothing in this world that HAS happened that could reliably prove that God exists.  And this is a really good starting point for not believing in God. 

.i don't mind the demand for evidence as much as the lack of definition...

In terms of what sort of evidence I would ask for, the word I am thinking of is 'extraordinary'.  You are proposing an invisible, all knowing, all powerful deity here, not informing us what you had for lunch.  What we expect from you is exactly what we expect from every god claimant.  The difference is that you think Christianity deserves some sort of free pass in that department.  You may think that is not what you are doing, but yes, it is.  If I am going to accept your personal testimony about God, then I MUST accept someone elses personal testimony about Zeus, else I am just using bias.  If I am going to accept your notion of timing with prayer, then I MUST accept someone elses report of the same.  Do you see where that is going?   The same thing holds true for every facet of all religions. 

.because as far as i can tell, anything i could present to you would just be dismissed on the argument that a God can't exist so that can't be valid.

This is untrue.  You COULD present a multitude of things that would convince us, but the problem is that none of them happen or exist.  You could pray to God to have my house turn completely upside down and balance on it's roof for 10 seconds, and if that worked, I might be inclined to hear more about this God fellow.  You could ask God to come down and turn me into a house cat for an hour, and if that worked, I would probably ask you more about God.  There are plenty of possible things.  Now, while you may sit behind your computer screen and roll your eyes, please note, that if there really WAS an all powerful being like God, these things WOULD be possible, right?  You can form excuse after excuse as to why they don't happen, but what it all boils down to is the FACT that this world behaves as if such a being did not exist. 

It is not that a god can't exist.  It is just that, given the massive lack of extraordinary evidence, it is far more likely that it doesn't.

.because my God does a lot, and there is evidence, and i'm trying to figure out what specifically you're looking for, so when i come across it, i can give it to you

Extra... ordinary.  Your God does nothing because He doesn't exist.  Sorry.  I am treating you exactly as I would someone who says Zeus exists and does things for him.   

i've been ostracized, slandered, and spent most of the last year without consistent food, home, job, or money mostly because of some person i met while working that sent me through a few hospital visits and due to the incompetence of protection under world systems led me to flee my life

This here is evidence (not enough to formulate a conclusion on its own, but a fact leading in a specific direction) that a benevolent God does not exist.  At any point in time, God could have reached down and changed all that for you.  Or, at the very least, He could have prevented it all from happening. 

...all of which was provided for by the Lord,

What was?  The lack of a consistent home or food source?  If God exists, yes, this is correct.  He did nothing while you were homeless.  Again I ask you... If you think good fortune is evidence of God, why should bad fortune not be evidence that He doesn't exist?  I guess to turn the tables on you... Assuming the earth and the universe exists just as you see it now, what evidence would lead you to think that the God you've believed in is all in your head?  Because while we can not prove that God does not exist (as basically nothing can be proven NOT to exist) we can probably provide you with a hell of a lot of reasonable doubt if you were open minded enough to hear it.

i don't claim to know starvation as it is in somalia but have done my share of suffering just like everyone else, and still praise the lord

This is the part about religion that makes me feel ill.  You praise a deity that allows suffering on massive scales. 

In a world with both widespread suffering and widespread joy, what sort of deity would you most likely expect to find?  For me, the most likely one would be a completely neutral deity, a deity that is completely hands off, or one that is just in people's heads but not actually real.   The only ones that would need a crap load of mental gymnastic explanations would be a benevolent deity, or a malicious one. 

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Graybeard

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #226 on: March 18, 2012, 07:03:11 AM »
so first in response to that video question

i have a friend who's been disabled from birth, has a underdeveloped hand....there is a group of us that want to gather the faith to pray for her....but honestly she's quite satisfied and accepting of it, so we've been hesitant....because the point is to show people God loves them, and bring freedom....it does take something of faith to pray....this is a struggle for me....
Do you suspect that she knows that God will do nothing, even with prayer, and therefore, to maintain her faith, refuses the test that will show that there is no God to answer prayers?

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then there's still testimony among people i know at my home church in Wisconsin....[list of people who recovered]
You know as well as I do that people recover naturally - even atheists...

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desperation tends to humble people enough to ask with earnest hearts.
And yet, in the history of mankind, no amputee has ever been humble enough - makes you think, doesn't it? How do you feel when this thought enters your mind?

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i am by no means saying that God doesn't use doctors to heal people.
In your opinion, why would God need doctors, why does He not simply create miracles?
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.luke was a doctor....found out the other day he cared for paul...a lot....
Luke would not have been able to get a license to practise medicine, even in Kansas, and Paul's affliction, probably epilepsy, remained uncured by the God he served.

Do you find that your life is made more complicated or less complicated by a belief in God?[/list]
« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 07:04:44 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #227 on: March 18, 2012, 11:24:49 AM »
If he doesn't, then John 14:13 is a lie.

So are you calling your own god a liar?

No lie.  But you are interpreting that verse incorrectly.   You don't think that possibly, there are some things said that are not completely literal?  And this verse, that you don't like, is proof that God doesn't exist?  That's what you have as ammunition for Christians?  Do you want to go further into this?

"Interpretation". Funny word that, you can slap it on anything you don't like, so long as everything you do like is interpreted literally. Or do you have an actual method for determining which is literal and which is story?

I have one, of course; It's all story unless and until something can be verified. But if you wish to treat any of it as real and literal, why shouldn't the whole thing be treated as real and literal (from your point of view)?

But there are answers to all athiest's concerns/questions, that they use as proof that it's a silly notion.  We believe in the foundational truth of Creation, therefore a God.  And if there's a God, there's His account, the Bible.  And with a God, there's Jesus (remember the guy that changed the calendar and the course of human history?), and we have Biblical proofs of historical accuracy/prophecy.  It's NOT blind faith.

But, y'see, it is blind faith, because you need to rely on circular logic for internal consistency, and base all of it on  unprovable concepts, like the "foundational truth of creation", which is not only unprovable, but depending on how far you go with your version of creationism, it may even have been disproven by the sciences.



And now to reply to morsecodet

You're welcome to reply however you would like as long as you understand i know what i have seen and believe

The problem with anecdotes: Most people know what they've "seen and believe".
UFO abductees
Wiccans
Scientologists
Conspiracy theorists

But the evidence does not support them. There is nothing concrete to back them up. So, why should we believe them?

We shouldn't, just as we don't believe you.

I LOVE my God! He's amazing!

Now if only he weren't so... impotent. Maybe we would actually be able to see his actual work in non-vague ways. Hospitals would certainly be documenting a lot more "miracles" if that were the case.

i know you probably hear that a lot but in a very legit way everything else by comparison just does not compare

That's the thing about fantasy worlds - they don't have to conform to reality.

my God is an active of God of justice and righteousness and radical love...and i could go on



Active God of Justice and Righteousness and Radical Love.

we talk daily, have random adventures together

This is the point where I start looking at you like you're crazy. O.o

he cares for me quite well, helps me out with just about everything, spoils me rotten, brings me to new levels of freedom....i mean he tends to be far better than any God i would expect



How nice for you.
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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #228 on: March 18, 2012, 01:32:35 PM »
Hello morsecodet: What would it take for a Muslim to convince you that their god was real and their miracles were true? Think about it. That what we are asking of you.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #229 on: March 18, 2012, 09:15:31 PM »
...then there's still testimony among people i know at my home church in Wisconsin....

You know as well as I do that people recover naturally - even atheists...

I would also assume that the people at Morsecodet's church probably did seek medical attention for their various problems.

I'd also like to comment here that I do work for doctors -- Dozens of them, in multiple specialties -- and that I find it disturbing and even insulting when a believer gives his or her god the credit for the hard work of medical personnel.
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Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #230 on: March 19, 2012, 06:24:00 AM »
again most of these reasons are why i asked for a definition of evidence

JeffPT provided an excellent definition of evidence. I would have probably stated it in very similar terms.
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

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Re: One logical reason god might not heal amputees
« Reply #231 on: March 19, 2012, 12:02:43 PM »
again give me definition, because all the evidence i have thus named has been declared of in-consequence....because my God does a lot, and there is evidence, and i'm trying to figure out what specifically you're looking for, so when i come across it, i can give it to you...
You have no evidence.  You have hearsay and a lot of excuses, Morse.  I suggest you find out what evidence really is, what it really takes to support a claim.  For instance. criminal cases will nto accept hearsay as evidence, especially if not supported by anything else.  Your claims are the same as any theists’ claims that their particular god does something.  As has been said, I want independent observers, I want medical records.  If the miracle is real, the supposedly healed person should have no problem releasing their records.  Indeed, the doctor who supposedly witnessed this should be writing it up in a journal.  But unfortunately for you, they never do.  We see nothing but stories from people like you who are desperate for anything to support their myths. 
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as far as the personal attack on my-ever-so-good life, be careful of who you judge lest you be judged.....you know nothing of my life except the part of my faith which i shared with you....i've been ostracized, slandered, and spent most of the last year without consistent food, home, job, or money mostly because of some person i met while working that sent me through a few hospital visits and due to the incompetence of protection under world systems led me to flee my life...
My goodness, quite a story change when it’s pointed out to you how vile you are with your surety that your god benefits you.  Suddenly your god disappears from the scene, and doesn’t provide for you at all.  And I’ll judge you as much as I’d like, and know that I’m right.  Sorry, Morse, but I’m not scared of your mangy god that never helps people who really need it.  I can judge good from bad with no problem. I don’t need a primitive religion to try to tell me these things. 

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.all of which was provided for by the Lord, in some cases through the grace of his followers, and in some cases i just don't know about....i don't claim to know starvation as it is in somalia but have done my share of suffering just like everyone else, and still

 praise the lord....
Praise the lord, Morse got her computer!  Poor thing. &)  Everyone suffers and your god has nothing to do with it or any alleviation of it. 
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which is not limited to trying to provide for somalia and end human trafficking in the state...my point isn't to sound self-righteous because i've done my share of wicked acts....my point is don't judge my life before you walk a mile in my shoes lest you find yourself in the very hypocrisy i can't stand of my fellow believers....because to say i don't care or haven't the slightest idea what suffering is not the case at all
  And one more Christian who claims to be such a horrible person.  You know, Morse, I’ve never been a terrible person or have done a “wicked act”.  It seems that you only have baseless claims and excuses.   And poor thing, you can’t stand hypocrisy, well, you really should look in the mirror.  One more Christian just like those you can’t stand, making things up, all sure that your god helps you but oooh, you just don’t understand why god doesn’t help anyone else.  But it’s god’s plan.  &)   Your god’s plan seems to include genocide, and starvation, cancer and dysentery, eye worms and lice.  And a god like that is just like every other god, an myth created by humans who didn’t understand the world. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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