One logical reason god might not heal amputees

[rockv12]

I think you will find that most atheists are equally as knowledgeable in reading Scripture as you are; if not more so.  If you think we disagree with you on the existence of God because we haven't read the bible or that we haven't heard the information that you gave us below, then you are going to be in for a surprise. 

[/quote]

I apologize.  I don't know the background of everyone in here.  My bad.  However, I think that many are assuming what they believe how God should act.  Who are we to say what He should and shouldn't do?  I mean, really.  Why do we think that He "HAS" to act a certain way to fit our worldview?  Is this proof of His non-existence?  No.  Why God won't or doesn't heal amputees, is just a silly question for a human to ask, IMO.   

[Aaron123]

John 14:13
And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.


With this statement in mind, why shouldn't we expect god to heal amputees?

[rockv12]

John 14:13
And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.


With this statement in mind, why shouldn't we expect god to heal amputees?

Good question.  But again, we are expecting God to drop things out of the sky, and stop time if we ask Him.  That's not reasonable is it?  There is no way that verse means that we can ask for a Ferrari and it will be sitting in our driveway when we walk outside.  Read the Bible, in it's entirety. 

[Aaron123]

Good question.  But again, we are expecting God to drop things out of the sky, and stop time if we ask Him.  That's not reasonable is it?  There is no way that verse means that we can ask for a Ferrari and it will be sitting in our driveway when we walk outside. 

In short; you expect god to do nothing.

So what's the difference between a god that does nothing, and a god that doesn't exist?   

Read the Bible, in it's entirety.

Been there, done that.

[ungod]

OK, I guess I also need to stipulate that god is perfect.  He is all-powerful, and he is also perfect.  So he cannot do anything that is irrational.  That doesn't really limit his power in any way, since expecting him to behave irrationally would be...well...irrational.  Sorry for moving the goalposts on you, but I think we are headed towards a nice tight refutation of the WWGHA argument.  Just have to iron out these niggling details

Your perfect God makes misteaks. He created an angel, named Satan, that turned out imperfect. God created a world that turned out so flawed the He had to destroy most of it in a global flood.
Perfection, by definition, cannot beget imperfection. Therefore, your perfect God is NOT perfect, and does not exist.

[velkyn]

 

I apologize.  I don't know the background of everyone in here.  My bad.  However, I think that many are assuming what they believe how God should act.  Who are we to say what He should and shouldn't do?  I mean, really.  Why do we think that He "HAS" to act a certain way to fit our worldview?  Is this proof of His non-existence?  No.  Why God won't or doesn't heal amputees, is just a silly question for a human to ask, IMO.

I'm sure you do find it silly since it hits your religion where it hurts.  If your bible is to be believed, your god says it will answer prayers quickly and positively e.g.

Mark 7: 7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.    9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

  The bible repeatedly says that people can be healed of physical ailments whenever someone asks, that believers will have the same magic powers as JC or better.  James claims that elders of the church can heal by prayer and annointing.  Why can no Christian do this now?  Are you all failing your god?  or does your god simply not exist?

Good question.  But again, we are expecting God to drop things out of the sky, and stop time if we ask Him.  That's not reasonable is it?  There is no way that verse means that we can ask for a Ferrari and it will be sitting in our driveway when we walk outside.  Read the Bible, in it's entirety.

I have and I know it quite well, reading it once as a believer, once as not and probably a couple of other times piecemeal.  The bible says that indeed Christians and Jews are expecting that this god drop things out of the sky and stop time if they ask it.  This god supposedly did this repeatedly so it’s perfectly reasonable to expect it to continue *if* it ever happened in the first place.  There’s no evidence of this, your myths no more real than those of the Greeks or Chinese or Norse. It’s only now with people knowing to ask for evidence that this god suddenly has stopped doing such things.  Christians claim miracles constantly but have not one shred of evidence that these things occur.  Then some other Christians claim that their god does nothing because of “free will” but forget that this must not have mattered to this god in the bible stories, and also forget that their god shows no interest in any free will at all, per the bible intentionally preventing some people from ever “accepting” him.

At best, you can claim that your god limits the prayers he answers to things he wants to have happen. Which means no free will.  It also means that prayers are utterly pointless since this supposedly omniscient already knows what it wants to have happen.  Now, when I was a Christian, I prayed nightly for the entire world to have enough to eat, to be safe and to be happy.  I prayed for world peace and that hostages would be rescued, etc.  Since none of those happened, this would indicate that your god doesn’t want these things to happen, so much for an omni-benevolent god.  Is your bible wrong?  Are you wrong?  Or again, is it that there is no god and your religion is as empty as all that have come before it?     

[GodlessHeathen]

Where does the Bible teach that God is this and that?  Do we really know what God does or allows Himself to do?  We can't.  We are playing God and acting like we know who and what God does.  That's rather silly.  But I understand your point.

Well, for one, there's Mark 11:23-34: For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

Now, that text may not specifically say that God heals amputees, but it is certainly implied. "he shall have whatsoever he saith"; "what things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them." All includes everything and excludes nothing.

[GodlessHeathen]

If the Christian god is omniscient, then he cannot be merciful and good; if he is merciful and good, then he must not have known that the humans he created would sin, in which case he would not be omniscient.

Indeed, where is free will in the ultimatum of "turn or burn"? That's not much of a choice.

Where does the Bible teach that God is this and that?  Do we really know what God does or allows Himself to do?  We can't.  We are playing God and acting like we know who and what God does.  That's rather silly.  But I understand your point.

So are you saying that your God lovingly and mercifully casts people into hell who reject him?

[Avatar Of Belial]

John 14:13
And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.


With this statement in mind, why shouldn't we expect god to heal amputees?

Good question.  But again, we are expecting God to drop things out of the sky, and stop time if we ask Him.  That's not reasonable is it?  There is no way that verse means that we can ask for a Ferrari and it will be sitting in our driveway when we walk outside.  Read the Bible, in it's entirety.

If he doesn't, then John 14:13 is a lie.

So are you calling your own god a liar?

[rockv12]

If the Christian god is omniscient, then he cannot be merciful and good; if he is merciful and good, then he must not have known that the humans he created would sin, in which case he would not be omniscient.

Indeed, where is free will in the ultimatum of "turn or burn"? That's not much of a choice.

Where does the Bible teach that God is this and that?  Do we really know what God does or allows Himself to do?  We can't.  We are playing God and acting like we know who and what God does.  That's rather silly.  But I understand your point.

So are you saying that your God lovingly and mercifully casts people into hell who reject him?

Do you know what hell is?  Do you believe that all Christians believe in a lake of fire?  Educate yourself on the doctrine of hell.  I don't believe that God would throw Uncle John into hell for eternity.  That actually isn't even Biblical.  Much of the doctrine of hell is symbolic and it's apparent if you study Scripture. 

[rockv12]

John 14:13
And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.


With this statement in mind, why shouldn't we expect god to heal amputees?

Good question.  But again, we are expecting God to drop things out of the sky, and stop time if we ask Him.  That's not reasonable is it?  There is no way that verse means that we can ask for a Ferrari and it will be sitting in our driveway when we walk outside.  Read the Bible, in it's entirety.

If he doesn't, then John 14:13 is a lie.

So are you calling your own god a liar?

No lie.  But you are interpreting that verse incorrectly.   You don't think that possibly, there are some things said that are not completely literal?  And this verse, that you don't like, is proof that God doesn't exist?  That's what you have as ammunition for Christians?  Do you want to go further into this? 

[ParkingPlaces]

rockv12

In cases like this, you have to give us your own personal interpretation of the hell thing, because we have a little problem with that around here. Not that christians believe it, but because no two ever have the same interpretation. So each of you is saddled with the task of explaining your specific views on the subject. If you're gonna argue about it.

It's so much easier being an atheist and just junking the whole idea. Hint hint.

[GodlessHeathen]

Do you know what hell is?  Do you believe that all Christians believe in a lake of fire?  Educate yourself on the doctrine of hell.  I don't believe that God would throw Uncle John into hell for eternity.  That actually isn't even Biblical.  Much of the doctrine of hell is symbolic and it's apparent if you study Scripture.

"Thou art not far from the kingdom of atheism." 

[rockv12]

rockv12

In cases like this, you have to give us your own personal interpretation of the hell thing, because we have a little problem with that around here. Not that christians believe it, but because no two ever have the same interpretation. So each of you is saddled with the task of explaining your specific views on the subject. If you're gonna argue about it.

It's so much easier being an atheist and just junking the whole idea. Hint hint.

But there are answers to all athiest's concerns/questions, that they use as proof that it's a silly notion.  We believe in the foundational truth of Creation, therefore a God.  And if there's a God, there's His account, the Bible.  And with a God, there's Jesus (remember the guy that changed the calendar and the course of human history?), and we have Biblical proofs of historical accuracy/prophecy.  It's NOT blind faith.

What I do respect about all of you in here, is that you DON'T simply believe.  If every door-knocker that came to a person's door and said, "Believe this!", it would be unreasonable to simply say, "OK, that sounds good, I'll be a "soandso" religion".  It's good to ask questions and know why you believe what you believe.

[Lurking]

Sorry to arrive so late after all the lurking, but this is one thing we very seldomly get a straight answer for. If they are answered, it varies from no hell to spiritual hell to cut off from God to burning a little to burning forever. Can't the Holy Ghost get his story straight?

So, you don't believe in a literal hell full of fire and brimstone?

In cases like this, you have to give us your own personal interpretation of the hell thing, because we have a little problem with that around here. Not that christians believe it, but because no two ever have the same interpretation. So each of you is saddled with the task of explaining your specific views on the subject....

[Lurking]

John 14:13
And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.


With this statement in mind, why shouldn't we expect god to heal amputees?

Good question.  But again, we are expecting God to drop things out of the sky, and stop time if we ask Him.  That's not reasonable is it?  There is no way that verse means that we can ask for a Ferrari and it will be sitting in our driveway when we walk outside.  Read the Bible, in it's entirety.

If he doesn't, then John 14:13 is a lie.

So are you calling your own god a liar?

No lie.  But you are interpreting that verse incorrectly.   You don't think that possibly, there are some things said that are not completely literal?  And this verse, that you don't like, is proof that God doesn't exist?  That's what you have as ammunition for Christians?  Do you want to go further into this?

This is one thing a lot of theists who come here don't understand.

Proof is for Maths and Alcohol.

The rest runs on evidence. The fact that what the "Word of God" promises is not reflected in reality, is evidence against the existence of that god. Not proof. Evidence against.

[velkyn]

But there are answers to all athiest's concerns/questions, that they use as proof that it's a silly notion.  We believe in the foundational truth of Creation, therefore a God.  And if there's a God, there's His account, the Bible.  And with a God, there's Jesus (remember the guy that changed the calendar and the course of human history?), and we have Biblical proofs of historical accuracy/prophecy.  It's NOT blind faith.

There are no instances of the bible being shown to be prophetic.  Not one clear prophecy that hasn’t been reinterpreted again and again for the convenience of Jews or Christians.  As for the Bible being “historically accurate” that’s rather amusing.  The bible mentions a few real places and people. So do various myths of other cultures.  Does that mean that Athena and Poseidon exist too?  Other religions make the same claims as you, that their god is responsible for “creation”, that there is an account about it and that their god does miracles, etc.  And just like you they have no evidence for these claims.  You and they only have circular arguments. 

Oh and rockv, Jesus didn’t change the calendar.  Christians can’t even agree when this character was born or died, since yet again there is no evidence for any of the essential events in the bible.  No “star” leading anyone anywhere, no darkening of the sun or earthquake at some crucifiction, no ancient dead walking the streets,  no flood, no exodus, nothing.  The Anno Domini^Wiki” system was invented in 535 by a Christian when they were fighting about when Jesus was “really” born and when “Easter” really happened.  Even the supposed *most* important event in Christianity can’t be agreed upon.  You’d think a religion could keep track of at least *that*.    But they couldn’t. So why think that this religion has any truth to it?

The belief in a man/god did indeed change the course of human history. So did the belief that a man took dictation from a angel and rode to Jerusalem in one night on a magic pony, and the belief that one man achieved enlightenment sitting under a bodhi tree.  Do you think that this makes them as valid as your religion?  Why or why not?

What I do respect about all of you in here, is that you DON'T simply believe.  If every door-knocker that came to a person's door and said, "Believe this!", it would be unreasonable to simply say, "OK, that sounds good, I'll be a "soandso" religion".  It's good to ask questions and know why you believe what you believe.

that’s all you’ve done though.  You’ve accepted the lies told to you, either inadvertently or intentionally, by people you had reason to trust.  You have done little research on your own to see that your own claims are wrong. 

[Grimm]

But there are answers to all athiest's concerns/questions, that they use as proof that it's a silly notion.  We believe in the foundational truth of Creation, therefore a God.  And if there's a God, there's His account, the Bible.  And with a God, there's Jesus (remember the guy that changed the calendar and the course of human history?), and we have Biblical proofs of historical accuracy/prophecy.  It's NOT blind faith.

What I do respect about all of you in here, is that you DON'T simply believe.  If every door-knocker that came to a person's door and said, "Believe this!", it would be unreasonable to simply say, "OK, that sounds good, I'll be a "soandso" religion".  It's good to ask questions and know why you believe what you believe.

... and suddenly, I am incredibly interested.

Rock, can we begin somewhere specific with this:  What is, in your opinion - and in as detailed a definition as you can offer - "the truth of creation?"

Allow me to sum up:

Atheists differ from theists in only one major regard, at least as it comes to belief:  we demand concrete evidence for assertions that require behaviors.  I do not believe in god - any god - but am open to the possibility of one existing, should you, or any other theist, offer compelling evidence to the contrary.  Philosophically, nobody's managed to answer a fundamental question I have, a question that, if answered, would allow me to believe as you do.  In your statement above, you've hit on the question I ask.

Specifically:  "Why should I believe you over someone else with a different holy book?"  If you look at me as the unconverted, the unsaved, the lost, and you recognize that your philosophy is competing with at least three major and untold scads of minor philosophies in the modern world, not to mention all the ones that are no longer extremely relevant, then this is the question that can sell me, the fundamental that nobody seems to grasp.

Why should I, or anyone else, agree that your holy book has authority? 

You claim that your foundations of belief and the system that drives them rests on the "Truth of Creation", which is to say that all of existence, all of the material universe, exists with some sort of central thesis.  How do you know, what thesis is it, and why should I believe your interpretation of it?

[rockv12]

But there are answers to all athiest's concerns/questions, that they use as proof that it's a silly notion.  We believe in the foundational truth of Creation, therefore a God.  And if there's a God, there's His account, the Bible.  And with a God, there's Jesus (remember the guy that changed the calendar and the course of human history?), and we have Biblical proofs of historical accuracy/prophecy.  It's NOT blind faith.

What I do respect about all of you in here, is that you DON'T simply believe.  If every door-knocker that came to a person's door and said, "Believe this!", it would be unreasonable to simply say, "OK, that sounds good, I'll be a "soandso" religion".  It's good to ask questions and know why you believe what you believe.

... and suddenly, I am incredibly interested.

Rock, can we begin somewhere specific with this:  What is, in your opinion - and in as detailed a definition as you can offer - "the truth of creation?"

Allow me to sum up:

Atheists differ from theists in only one major regard, at least as it comes to belief:  we demand concrete evidence for assertions that require behaviors.  I do not believe in god - any god - but am open to the possibility of one existing, should you, or any other theist, offer compelling evidence to the contrary.  Philosophically, nobody's managed to answer a fundamental question I have, a question that, if answered, would allow me to believe as you do.  In your statement above, you've hit on the question I ask.

Specifically:  "Why should I believe you over someone else with a different holy book?"  If you look at me as the unconverted, the unsaved, the lost, and you recognize that your philosophy is competing with at least three major and untold scads of minor philosophies in the modern world, not to mention all the ones that are no longer extremely relevant, then this is the question that can sell me, the fundamental that nobody seems to grasp.

Why should I, or anyone else, agree that your holy book has authority? 

You claim that your foundations of belief and the system that drives them rests on the "Truth of Creation", which is to say that all of existence, all of the material universe, exists with some sort of central thesis.  How do you know, what thesis is it, and why should I believe your interpretation of it?

Love the question.  Have you studied the Bible and history and the prophecy in the Bible?  There's where you find the TRUTH of the Bible over the Koran, for example.  Have you dismissed the idea of a resurrected Christ?  Have you dismissed the idea of Biblical prophecy coming true? 

The TRUTH of Creation comes not only from the Bible, but from observance of our physical world also.  I mean, have you watched, "The Planet Earth" series?  It's beyond belief what evolution designed, is it not? 

[rockv12]

  You have done little research on your own to see that your own claims are wrong.

Little research?  How do you know this?  And actually, geology proves a worldwide flood occurred.  Actually a flood story is found in just about every civilization recorded.

[Grimm]

Love the question.  Have you studied the Bible and history and the prophecy in the Bible?  There's where you find the TRUTH of the Bible over the Koran, for example.  Have you dismissed the idea of a resurrected Christ?  Have you dismissed the idea of Biblical prophecy coming true? 

The TRUTH of Creation comes not only from the Bible, but from observance of our physical world also.  I mean, have you watched, "The Planet Earth" series?  It's beyond belief what evolution designed, is it not?

Yes, I have - at some length.  I began as a Christian, and deconverted as I began to study things like the history of the Bible and in searching for the evidence of God as the bible proposes.  I believed - as you likely do now - that if God existed, I could find him if I looked hard enough at both the word and the world around me.

Shall we begin with your last question, however?

I do find this world around me amazing, but I don't find it 'beyond belief'.  THe world is beautiful, incredible, intricate - but explainable.  'Evolution' designed nothing; this world is one potential result based on its beginnings and a whole bunch of relatively blind choices to arrive at its current state.  There is absolutely nothing about this world that requires God to explain it - even if the notion is fairly romantic.

To back up, I have also studied the Koran, the Book of Mormon, the Baghvad Gita, and others - every single one of these holy texts claims fulfilled prophecies.  How is the Bible unique?

[Grimm]

  You have done little research on your own to see that your own claims are wrong.

Little research?  How do you know this?  And actually, geology proves a worldwide flood occurred.  Actually a flood story is found in just about every civilization recorded.

Rock -

Geology refutes a worldwide flood.  Every geologist will tell you that, should you ask.

[One Above All]

rockv12, putting "truth" in all caps will not change the fact that the Bible has as much "truth" in it as Lord of the Rings. Maybe even less. EDIT: However, it does give the impression that you have poor writing skills.

[JeffPT]

And actually, geology proves a worldwide flood occurred. 

That's simply false information.  It's not true.  Whomever told you that (and I will bet it's a religious person and not a geologist... which should tell you something right there) is not telling you the truth.  Geology is not a conspiracy to end Christianity.  It's just a field of study. 

Actually a flood story is found in just about every civilization recorded.

If I recall, the global flood sent by God killed everyone except Noah.  Who would have been around to record it?

Here is a more likely scenario that explains why we have so many flood stories (that actually involves people living to record the stories)...  Almost every early civilization set up shop right next to rivers and lakes where flooding occurred from time to time. 

[GodlessHeathen]

And actually, geology proves a worldwide flood occurred. 

That's simply false information.  It's not true.  Whomever told you that (and I will bet it's a religious person and not a geologist... which should tell you something right there) is not telling you the truth.  Geology is not a conspiracy to end Christianity.  It's just a field of study. 

Agreed, each strata is laid out nice and neat. And fossils are well sorted according to type. If a worldwide flood had occurred, we would see mixtures of many different kinds of rocks and minerals with little or no organization. We would also see fossils of different species mixed in together instead of laid out nice and neat from simplest to more complex (exactly what one would expect, by the way, if life on earth evolved slowly from simpler forms).

[Lurking]

.....
  And actually, geology proves a worldwide flood occurred.....   

No, it doesn't. For example, in my country there is no "flood layer", anywhere. None. No evidence for any kind of global flood at all.

If you do have empirical, verifiable evidence for such a "flood layer", please provide it here. Remember, my country is one of the main mining countries in the world and virtually every type of deposit imaginable have been thoroughly investigated by thousands of trained geologists over the last more than hundred years. None have found any evidence for one big major flood that covered the whole country.

Also remember, you repeating falsehoods from creationists about geology won't turn it into the truth.

(By the way, I'm a  geologist. Never even seen any evidence for a global flood anywhere. You pretending that it has been "proved" is thus, to put it mildly, not telling the entire truth).

[Grimm]

Lurking - may I ask where you live?  I'd like to look more into what you've said - it's a nice arrow for a scientific quiver against the flood nonsense.

[velkyn]

  You have done little research on your own to see that your own claims are wrong.

Little research?  How do you know this?  And actually, geology proves a worldwide flood occurred.  Actually a flood story is found in just about every civilization recorded.

ROFL.  Rockv, I'm a geologist, and I know you are lying AGAIN.  Please do tell me of how geology proves a world wide flood occured.  Oh yes, and tell me when this flood occured.  I do like to watch Christians come up with different dates. 

You ar correct, floods are often in myths.  Just like its in your *myth*.  Humans like to live near rivers and beaches.  Floods occur, so it's quite easy to see that humans, who create their own gods as powerful humans, decide that something as destructive as a flood would be a great way to explain why there is "evil" in the world.   However, in societies that find floods good, like the Egyptians, they don't use a destructive flood myth at all.   Funny how they missed this supposed event.

[morsecodet]

okay so i came across the site randomly and joined this forum to ask a simple question. 

It's been documented to me--video, testimony and otherwise--of peoples limbs growing back because of prayer.  Now there's always been at least one degree of separation, usually by other random Christians i know than friends, but i do have one testimony that comes to mind in terms of healing prayer. 

a friend of mine had an uncle--basically the back half of his body had decayed from not moving, and the details of that really weren't shared with me.   she didn't actually tell me this testimony her father did--it was his brother.  my friend and i belong to a community of believers that have a bit of culture of healing prayer.  so on some given visit to the hospital my friend prayed for him because his skin had basically turned to liquid, he was in the icu, and not supposed to make it through the night.  and within the next week, skin had completely regrown and there was reference to a walking thing too that i honesty forget the specifics of.  my friend's dad told me this story because it opened his eyes to the world of healing prayer. 

in writing this out i did realize something else....i have a couple friends that get distinct enjoyment of going around asking people if they have any pain in the lower back, legs, knees, joints, etc....they will measure the person's legs to see if they are even, because apparently this is a problem for 9 out of 10 people that causes such issues....something about misalignment of the spine....and in the event that they are uneven, pray for the leg to come out...i have not been around them when they've done this where it hasn't worked....don't know if that fits your criteria, as its only an inch or so verses the entire thing but that one i've witnessed personally....i have only done something like that once myself.... to a friend who's leg "popped" out as she called it and spontaneously started laughing....i was going to again to a friend's cousin once when he was drunk at a Christmas party this last December....he mentioned having a lot of pain in the knee but also just in general so the prayer ended up more of a wholestic healing one....in his case he felt a pop in his elbow and pain left his arm and just about jumped out of his seat with dialgoue that went a little like...."but you were praying for my knee and my elbow got healed!"...."did you have pain there?"...."well yeah but you were praying for my knee!  i need another drink."

so i have a lot of testimony to share on that but i've read a couple posts now on making excuses as to why this never happens or because it doesn't its obviously not true....

so the issue i guess i want to raise is what about the people and testimonies of people who have had limbs grow back?

i can't just discredit them because the masses haven't heard of them, or rather, they are dismissed as superstition by people who have not witnessed things first hand

now i'm going to simply suggest that this is not the right question to ask, and further, should not be the foundation of any given faith, christian, atheist or otherwise because if it becomes the foundation you can count yourselves among the pharisees that thought themselves to have and understand all knowledge necessary for belief, and there is reason as to why Christians "walk by faith, and not by sight"

since i actually bothered to join this forum i also take question to another point raised on that site that did not sit well with me

the point i'd like to raise regards prayer....rather the presentation of it offered on that site.....take this the right way, the presentation offered sounds more in line with witchcraft than biblical prayer....despite using a few scripture references that screw the points they're making out of context, there is a plethora of passages suggesting answers to questions on why prayer isn't answer, how to ask, what asking means, and even what it means to have an answered prayer.....one model for asking i would point to was Jesus's first miracle, or rather, Mary in the midst of it....

i would like to know another's perspective who will not discount what i have seen for myself and believe to be true....any takers?