Author Topic: a moment of your time if i may [#40]  (Read 1603 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DL

a moment of your time if i may [#40]
« on: July 24, 2008, 04:42:42 PM »
i'm not going to spam you with ridiculous praise on your videos or even try to prove the existence of or why i believe in Christian faith. rather think outside the box a second and look at the good things Christian religion does for the world. even if you don't believe in it you will agree.

1. it sets a series of simple and ethical rules that even the most simple minded person can follow and not deviate with-in society

2. it stands apart from other religions like Islam that focus on a dominant gender or race

3. the United State was founded primarily by those living up to the ideals and heritage set forth through Christian values (even though we did hurt some natives along the way lol)

4. It could even be said to have prevented spread of disease and aided in population control

5. it instills hope in those who have none, potentially leading to something they may do to impact your or my life

6. some would say if there is nothing to live for then why bother: that being said would a Godless world be that great ? what if everyone didn't believe in a heaven or hell what if they believed that it didn't matter what they did to themselves or anyone else for that matter?

7. why argue something that will never change nor will ever go away? the world is out of the dark ages and for the most part people don't use Christianity to oppress or kill others


i wish i could come up with 10 intelligent questions like your's but i could not. i respect your opinion however i don't agree. but that's ok , you sound like a person that would do the RIGHT thing if necessary. i look at the world on a more broad scale. i know that there are more average and below average intellects out there. the world is one big hive mind and there has to be controls that keep the weaker minds in check. with out these controls there would be anarchy, i'm sure we could lay down the rules of Hamuroby (misspelled) but would it work as much as saying there is a big man in the sky that will punish you forever and ever if you don't be good. see what i mean, if you instill this fear then you have control. If you break this fear all of the smart people are doomed!

personally i believe in God.. i can't explain it fully nor will i try but i do. it's probably because i can foresee what the world would be like with out God

thank you for your time
[name]

Offline Ashe

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1639
  • Darwins +10/-1
  • Gender: Female
Re: a moment of your time if i may [#40]
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2008, 04:47:09 PM »
3. the United State was founded primarily by those living up to the ideals and heritage set forth through Christian values (even though we did hurt some natives along the way lol)

Wow.
2 miles!
"All men(humans )were demon possed and were planning to attack God. Just like if you talk back to your parents." - Failbag quote

Offline Ananukia

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1663
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • I wear no mask.
Re: a moment of your time if i may [#40]
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2008, 04:51:56 PM »
1. it sets a series of simple and ethical rules that even the most simple minded person can follow and not deviate with-in society

Ok, which rules? all 600 of them?

2. it stands apart from other religions like Islam that focus on a dominant gender or race

Do you know what religion the Klan belongs to?

3. the United State was founded primarily by those living up to the ideals and heritage set forth through Christian values (even though we did hurt some natives along the way lol)

So you must not have heard of the Treaty of Tripoli? Also a few million people dead does not elicit hilarity to me.

4. It could even be said to have prevented spread of disease and aided in population control

Well burning bodies has always helped stop spread disease.

5. it instills hope in those who have none, potentially leading to something they may do to impact your or my life

False hope is not really all that helpful.

6. some would say if there is nothing to live for then why bother: that being said would a Godless world be that great ? what if everyone didn't believe in a heaven or hell what if they believed that it didn't matter what they did to themselves or anyone else for that matter?

Empathy is breed into us. Also for those who harm the society, the society harms them.

7. why argue something that will never change nor will ever go away? the world is out of the dark ages and for the most part people don't use Christianity to oppress or kill others

I guess you must watch FAUXNEWS.
        Songs that the Hyades shall sing,
    Where flap the tatters of the King,
    Must die unheard in

        Dim Carcosa.

Offline Dkit

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2113
  • Darwins +3/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Nemesis Ridiculii
Re: a moment of your time if i may [#40]
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2008, 04:55:19 PM »
3. the United State was founded primarily by those living up to the ideals and heritage set forth through Christian values (even though we did hurt some natives along the way lol)

Wow.

That was my response to the whole email.   :-\
"The Bible is a Banquet table not a snack tray!" - Anonymous Facebook User

Offline Dkit

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2113
  • Darwins +3/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Nemesis Ridiculii
Re: a moment of your time if i may [#40]
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2008, 05:38:53 PM »
1. it sets a series of simple and ethical rules that even the most simple minded person can follow and not deviate with-in society
Can you please provide the "ethical rules" to which you are referring?
2. it stands apart from other religions like Islam that focus on a dominant gender or race
You mean like this?
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (New International Version)
34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.



3. the United State was founded primarily by those living up to the ideals and heritage set forth through Christian values (even though we did hurt some natives along the way lol)
I'm sure those godless heathens got what they deserved.

4. It could even be said to have prevented spread of disease and aided in population control
How so?  From what I gather, the European settlers spread disease all throughout the Native American population.  Including, small pox, scarlet fever, diphtheria, typhoid fever, typhus, and a host of others. 
http://www.thefurtrapper.com/indian_smallpox.htm

5. it instills hope in those who have none, potentially leading to something they may do to impact your or my life
People gather hope from various sources, not just Christianity.  People who are theists and non-theists can do things to impact our world.  We don't need god to make us to good things.
6. some would say if there is nothing to live for then why bother: that being said would a Godless world be that great ? what if everyone didn't believe in a heaven or hell what if they believed that it didn't matter what they did to themselves or anyone else for that matter?
Some would say if you have a heaven paved with streets of gold where you will be forever worshiping your deity of choice, why bother?  If this life is all we have, it makes sense to do as much with it as possible. 
 
7. why argue something that will never change nor will ever go away? the world is out of the dark ages and for the most part people don't use Christianity to oppress or kill others
Really?
with out these controls there would be anarchy, i'm sure we could lay down the rules of Hamuroby Hammurabi(misspelled) but would it work as much as saying there is a big man in the sky that will punish you forever and ever if you don't be good. see what i mean, if you instill this fear then you have control. If you break this fear all of the smart people are doomed!
Speaking for myself, I don't need some imaginary deity watching my every move, listening to my thoughts and threatening me with hell to keep me in line.  I'm sorry if you feel differently.  Maybe you need to keep your religion. 
personally i believe in God.. i can't explain it fully nor will i try but i do. it's probably because i can foresee what the world would be like with out God
Top Countries to Live In
'TOP TEN COUNTRIES'
1 Ireland
2 Switzerland
3 Norway
4 Luxembourg
5 Sweden
6 Australia
7 Iceland
8 Italy
9 Denmark
10 Spain

Researchers took into account not just income, but other factors considered important to people's satisfaction and well-being.

They included health, freedom, unemployment, family life, climate, political stability and security, gender equality and family and community life.


I'm not sure, but I think most of those countries would be considered secular.  Does anyone know for sure?
 
"The Bible is a Banquet table not a snack tray!" - Anonymous Facebook User

wesker723

  • Guest
Re: a moment of your time if i may [#40]
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2008, 07:11:59 PM »
 wish i could come up with 10 intelligent questions like your's but i could not. i respect your opinion however i don't agree. but that's ok , you sound like a person that would do the RIGHT thing if necessary. i look at the world on a more broad scale. i know that there are more average and below average intellects out there. the world is one big hive mind and there has to be controls that keep the weaker minds in check. with out these controls there would be anarchy, i'm sure we could lay down the rules of Hamuroby (misspelled) but would it work as much as saying there is a big man in the sky that will punish you forever and ever if you don't be good. see what i mean, if you instill this fear then you have control. If you break this fear all of the smart people are doomed!

ok this is the part for the "smart" people.

lets start with hope...

go to a web browser and type in suicidal forums (humor me would ya) look at the down right droden and depressed. look at those who have no hope nor believe that anyone loves them... are YOU going to help them, and how? are you going to tell them that it's ok and that things will be better... will you attack them and say grow up or be strong you know tough love?  or will you simply say they should kill themselves because it's just natrual selection at it's best? any of these answers could work in any given situation but would you not agree that if beliefe in an imaginary diety prevents some kid from slaying his family friends or school mates then blowing his head off then it has some grounds for usefulness with in society.

hope be it false or not is not known to the believer that it is false. therefore any form of hope is good

the gender issue thrown at me from corintheans... it didn't say that women were vessels for men tools for breeding or meant to be slaves. it bascially said women should be quiet in church ... in nearly any given century women had NO rights, there are women today that have no rights but they arn't within cultures that actively follow christianity.

the united states question i posed.. i'm sorry if some indians lost their land, i'm sorry some mexicans lost their land but i don't remember any of these to be religious wars. you will agree that the internet is nice wouldn't you and cars and starbucks so you would agree that with out the united states many of these things would not exist and i'm sorry if christianity did not exist in some form in the world the United states may not be what it is today. (in other words you can't make an omlette with out breaking a few eggs)

ethical standards set by CHRISTIANITY, do not confuse with old testiment. if a christian ever throws old testiment in his/her arguments then they waste your time.. come to think of it i'm probably wasting my time eh oh well. ok basically CHRISTIANS are suppose to be very forgiving people (though most are not, most are very judgmental sad to say) the 2 rules jesus set were mostly love god and love your neighbor as yourself.


again you can sit there and say that "i don't need threats of fire and brimstone", but there are many many many sub par intellects in the world and thumping a bible is probably their only way to fit in society. take hitler for example, he wasn't bright but he knew how to manipulate the majority because he knew the majority would follow him if he seemed to know what he was talking about. if there was no religion or reason to fear death the wrong person could easily control many. look at it from this perspective. why try to illiminate christianity and point out the flaws you see, i can find flaws in everything. books movies and certainly i can find flaws in this post. but what's the point what is the ultimate goal that you seek. is it sake of argument? or just to disprove somthing people cherish? maybe you see only the evils that people have used religion for and you want to destroy it. it's noble but a fruitless battle. i always say that people should look with in themselves and try to use their talents to do good for the world so that we can evolve so that we can better ourselves. we have to advance our society or we stagnate to the point where we continually fight over who's right and who's wrong.

Offline Ambassador Pony

  • You keep what you kill.
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 6858
  • Darwins +71/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • illuminatus
Re: a moment of your time if i may [#40]
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2008, 08:31:26 PM »
Is it a full moon tonight?

BM
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Airyaman

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4173
  • Darwins +17/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • Alignment: True Neutral
    • Moving Beyond Faith
Re: a moment of your time if i may [#40]
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2008, 08:53:57 PM »
wish i knew where the 'shift' key was on my keyboard.
If you are following God why can I still see you?

Offline kcrady

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1300
  • Darwins +416/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Your Friendly Neighborhood Cephalopod Overlord
    • My blog
Re: a moment of your time if i may [#40]
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2008, 10:30:45 PM »
OK, Wesker, let's say all that you've said was true, that Christianity is a fine belief system to run a society with, that it provides hope and warm fuzzies and makes dumb people pliant and harmless by giving them simple rules to follow and threats of Hell to keep them in line.  That doesn't make Christianity true.

The worship of Amun-Re, Isis, Osiris, Ptah, Thoth, Neith, Nepthys, Hathor, and the rest created a stable society that lasted over four thousand years and created works of art and architecture that fill people with awe to this day.  Compared to that, Christianity is still in short pants.  Unlike the ancient Egyptian religion, Christianity has had a long series of bloody internecine conflicts between its sects (the sack of Byzantium by "fellow Christians" during the Crusades, the Thirty Years' War, the Troubles in Ireland, etc.).  On that basis, shouldn't we all convert to the worship of the great Gods and Goddesses of the Two Lands? 

Well, OK, converting everyone to the Egyptian religion might be a rather large project.  Still, what you're suggesting here is that Christianity works as a Noble Lie to keep the rubes in line and order society by.  Christianity is good not necessarily because it is an accurate description of reality, but because it's useful for things like providing hope and giving the simple-minded simple rules to live by.   

"Religion is seen by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."  (Lucretius, I think...)
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

--Greta Christina

wesker723

  • Guest
Re: a moment of your time if i may [#40]
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2008, 11:03:06 PM »
this will be my last reply so what ever you hit this with i will not read so make it something others can reply to, because all this thread has become is an insult fest and round robin redundancy.

the whole purpose of my post was not to prove or disprove God's existence. i believe in God and nothing you or anyone else can say will stop that, and nothing i say nor any other Christian says will make you believe in God. so now that we have the agree to disagree out of the way lets get to the meat and potatoes of the subject matter.

the video i replied to was trying to disprove God and basically say that religion it's self is useless, childish, and pointless. I am an intelligent person, and as such i know that arguing whether or not a supreme being exists or not is pointless to those who must rationalize everything. therefore i decided that i would argue the value of said system of beliefs vs a system of NO beliefs and weigh the differences.

you can spit scripture and holy wars and crusades in my face until your full of your self but you also forget that all wars fights and conflicts have one thing in common. some person or group of people decided they were better than another. so if it wasn't a religion they were fighting about they damn sure would have found something else to fight about. Egyptians had their wars too and some of them were based on their beliefs again another argument that is pointless. bottom line people fought for power and used religion as their cover story again to manipulate the weak minded.

my addition was that at least the Christian religion has added more good to the world than any other religion can claim, and in today's society countries that primarily practice Christianity are doing quite well both ethically and in stability.

you say you don't believe in God. i say who cares, your beliefs are your beliefs. In the US you have the freedom to say what you want about them and practice them any way you want, and i would fight to the death for your right to do so. however i will not waste another moment on here going in circles about the obvious (what i have already posted had nothing to do with proving or disproving god but simply the value of Christian religion vs no religion at all).

Offline Ambassador Pony

  • You keep what you kill.
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 6858
  • Darwins +71/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • illuminatus
Re: a moment of your time if i may [#40]
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2008, 11:19:13 PM »
pearls >< swine

You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Kntrabssi

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • You keep believing, I'll keep evolving
Re: a moment of your time if i may [#40]
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2008, 12:26:52 AM »
From Sam Harris: "If you hold to the position that 'Nothing you say can change my mind', what you are really saying is 'I am not taking reality into account when making my decisions'."
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.
-Carl Sagan

Generous George

  • Guest
Re: a moment of your time if i may [#40]
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2008, 06:37:11 AM »
I believe the part about weak minds.....he provides his own evidence. :P

Offline leese

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: a moment of your time if i may [#40]
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2008, 06:53:29 AM »
this will be my last reply so what ever you hit this with i will not read so make it something others can reply to, because all this thread has become is an insult fest and round robin redundancy.

Why do I feel he left a flaming bag of dog poo,rang the doorbell and ran?
"Humanity without religion is like a serial killer without a chainsaw."
-- unknown

Offline Codswallop

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1294
  • Darwins +1/-0
  • Cod helps those who help themselves.
Re: a moment of your time if i may [#40]
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2008, 08:24:59 AM »
i'm not going to spam you with ridiculous praise on your videos or even try to prove the existence of or why i believe in Christian faith. rather think outside the box a second and look at the good things Christian religion does for the world. even if you don't believe in it you will agree.

Actually, we'd prefer ridiculous praise to this silly response. We have heard half of this before. The other half is--well, let's be kind and call it irrational. 

I suggest you look up the meaning of the word "evidence." Then try to find evidence for the things you think are true. If you can't find any (and you REALLY know what evidence is), then ask yourself why you persist with these irrational ideas.

I welcome debate on specific points. Pick your best one--the one you think is strongest--and let's talk.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons."
             --Gene Wilder as The Waco Kid, Blazing Saddles

Offline Dkit

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2113
  • Darwins +3/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Nemesis Ridiculii
Re: a moment of your time if i may [#40]
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2008, 09:32:20 AM »
Quote
go to a web browser and type in suicidal forums (humor me would ya) look at the down right droden and depressed. look at those who have no hope nor believe that anyone loves them... are YOU going to help them, and how? are you going to tell them that it's ok and that things will be better... will you attack them and say grow up or be strong you know tough love?  or will you simply say they should kill themselves because it's just natrual selection at it's best? any of these answers could work in any given situation but would you not agree that if beliefe in an imaginary diety prevents some kid from slaying his family friends or school mates then blowing his head off then it has some grounds for usefulness with in society.
I didn't do the search, but I'll ask you anyway.  What makes you assume that these people aren't already Christians?  Are you trying to say that Christians don't feel depressed or suicidal or homicidal?

Quote
2. it stands apart from other religions like Islam that focus on a dominant gender or race

Quote
the gender issue thrown at me from corintheans... it didn't say that women were vessels for men tools for breeding or meant to be slaves. it bascially said women should be quiet in church ... in nearly any given century women had NO rights, there are women today that have no rights but they arn't within cultures that actively follow christianity.

I don't believe I addressed breeding or slaves, maybe because you didn't either.  You are claiming Christianity doesn't focus on a dominant gender.  I showed you through your own holy book that it does indeed show how women are to be considered "less".  By not giving her rights to speak up in church and ask questions, she has lost the right to be considered equal to a man.  I didn't provide the verses that say she must have long hair to cover her head, dress plain and not wear any pearls(jewelry).  If you aren't following these rules for the women in your life, you aren't following Christianity.  You are cherry-picking what you think is relevant. 

Quote
the united states question i posed.. i'm sorry if some indians lost their land, i'm sorry some mexicans lost their land but i don't remember any of these to be religious wars
How about if they lost their lives?  Don't the stories of the Israelites claiming and conquering the land of the Canaanites, killing and collecting booty, remind you of something?

Quote
and in today's society countries that primarily practice Christianity are doing quite well both ethically and in stability.

You apparently didn't read my entire first post. 
"The Bible is a Banquet table not a snack tray!" - Anonymous Facebook User

Offline Codswallop

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1294
  • Darwins +1/-0
  • Cod helps those who help themselves.
Re: a moment of your time if i may [#40]
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2008, 10:02:40 AM »
In my senior year of high school, one of the co-captains of the football team ate a bunch of pills and then blew his brains out with a pistol. He was a born-again Christian, a very vocal and active one, member of YoungLife, FCA, all that stuff. There's this really nice tribute page in our yearbook. It was sponsored by a couple of other born-again football-playing FCA types. They knew it could just as easily have been them.

I could scan it if you're interested
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons."
             --Gene Wilder as The Waco Kid, Blazing Saddles

Offline Ambassador Pony

  • You keep what you kill.
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 6858
  • Darwins +71/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • illuminatus
Re: a moment of your time if i may [#40]
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2008, 10:12:57 AM »
In my senior year of high school, one of the co-captains of the football team ate a bunch of pills and then blew his brains out with a pistol. He was a born-again Christian, a very vocal and active one, member of YoungLife, FCA, all that stuff. There's this really nice tribute page in our yearbook. It was sponsored by a couple of other born-again football-playing FCA types. They knew it could just as easily have been them.

I could scan it if you're interested

So sad that he is burning in hell for eternity.

Did the page have flames?
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: a moment of your time if i may [#40]
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2008, 10:54:08 AM »
Quote
this will be my last reply so what ever you hit this with i will not read so make it something others can reply to, because all this thread has become is an insult fest and round robin redundancy.


Is it me or do most if not all recent Christian posters in the mailbox suffer badly from projection?  and that they evidently have never, *ever* read their own holy book? 



"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Generous George

  • Guest
Re: a moment of your time if i may [#40]
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2008, 12:36:56 PM »
......and are intellectual cowards....here is my BS.....you say you want evidence....I'll be going now.    :o

Offline Airyaman

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4173
  • Darwins +17/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • Alignment: True Neutral
    • Moving Beyond Faith
Re: a moment of your time if i may [#40]
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2008, 12:54:45 PM »
Quote
this will be my last reply so what ever you hit this with i will not read so make it something others can reply to, because all this thread has become is an insult fest and round robin redundancy.


Is it me or do most if not all recent Christian posters in the mailbox suffer badly from projection?  and that they evidently have never, *ever* read their own holy book? 





And none of them seem to know where the "shift" key is.
If you are following God why can I still see you?

Offline Codswallop

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1294
  • Darwins +1/-0
  • Cod helps those who help themselves.
Re: a moment of your time if i may [#40]
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2008, 03:41:10 PM »
Quote
this will be my last reply so what ever you hit this with i will not read so make it something others can reply to, because all this thread has become is an insult fest and round robin redundancy.


Is it me or do most if not all recent Christian posters in the mailbox suffer badly from projection?  and that they evidently have never, *ever* read their own holy book? 


Gotta love that alliteration though. "Round Robin Redundancy." It just rolls around in your mouth. Tastes sweet, like stolen communion wafers!
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons."
             --Gene Wilder as The Waco Kid, Blazing Saddles