Author Topic: Homophobia  (Read 2675 times)

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Offline Truth OT

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Homophobia
« on: August 18, 2011, 04:53:10 PM »
There is much contention and ruckus raised in reference to this issue for many reasons with politics and religion being at the forefront. I wish to look at it from a slightly different angle in this thread in hopes of finding what the individual opinions are on this subject as well as perhaps the 'whys' behind those feelings.
It is my belief from my personal experience that the root of the problem with homosexuality lies in virility and the concept of manhood. I say this because deep down, many folks that take issue with homosexuality could really care less about lesbianism though in order to not look biased, they won't admit that the truth of the matter is that many are really rubbed the wrong way with the concept of a man not acting as a man and allowing himself to in a way be emasculated.
What does the forum think about this?

Offline hypagoga

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2011, 05:35:09 PM »
There is much contention and ruckus raised in reference to this issue for many reasons with politics and religion being at the forefront. I wish to look at it from a slightly different angle in this thread in hopes of finding what the individual opinions are on this subject as well as perhaps the 'whys' behind those feelings.
It is my belief from my personal experience that the root of the problem with homosexuality lies in virility and the concept of manhood. I say this because deep down, many folks that take issue with homosexuality could really care less about lesbianism though in order to not look biased, they won't admit that the truth of the matter is that many are really rubbed the wrong way with the concept of a man not acting as a man and allowing himself to in a way be emasculated.
What does the forum think about this?

Correction - the contention and ruckus is purely religious, which unfortunately seeps into politics and other areas like a disease.

There is no "problem with homosexuality" that has a root. The problem itself is with the bigots who perpetrate hatred of others. There is no emasculation in homosexuality, and if a homosexual man is not acting "as a man", what is he acting as? When it comes down to it, whatever you see someone "acting as" is clearly not reality, for the simple fact that a man IS a man, regardless of particular circumstances.

Offline Bad Pear

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2011, 05:41:13 PM »
Correction - the contention and ruckus is purely religious, which unfortunately seeps into politics and other areas like a disease.

My wife and I currently live in China. I can say from personal experience that there are plenty of young men here who have deep issues with homophobia sans a religious context. I do not pretend to be well versed on this issue, but I can at least say that anti-homosexual ideas don't have to have a religious origin.
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2011, 06:22:38 PM »
 I have absolutely nothing against homosexuals.  Nothing at all.  If someone tells me they are a homosexual, it does not effect me in the least. But a part of my brain does say I wouldn't want to have sex with another man. 

This may be a bit out there... But this is a recent thought I had about homosexuality, and since you brought it up Truth OT, I would like to have some input on it.  I have watched a bunch of Sapolsky video's in the past, and as a result, I think there is a possible correlation between the areas in our brain that process homosexuality and judgment views on morality.  My thinking is this... Moral issues are processed in the brain in a certain way.  We find things that are morally good to be morally good because we compare the actions of others to what we might have done in similar situations.  In other words, when we think of someone helping the little old lady across the street, we see it as "good" because that is something we ourselves would find an impetus to do, or that we would "feel good" about.  We think of Hitler as being "bad" because we hold up what he did against what we would do, and the 2 are so far apart, that we call him "bad".  Homosexuality may have been co-opted into this moral judgement system because as non-homosexuals, we personally would never act in such a way.  So in effect, there is a part of our brain that is forced to make a value judgement about homosexuality, strictly because we see it as something we wouldn't want to do ourselves.

Fortunately, our logical mind can overcome such a thing and when you realize that just because you wouldn't want to do it personally, that doesn't mean someone else has to feel the same way.  So in effect, perhaps the hatred of homosexuals is nothing more than the lack of ability of someones rational mind to overcome the powerful feelings and emotions generated by the limbic system.  Homophobia may just be a sign of a weak intellect.  Or possibly a really strong limbic system.   

I think another factor that has to be taken in consideration here is the fact that we are products of our environment.  If your parents hate homosexuals, it's a good bet that the kids will too. 

Or I could be full of shit.  :)  It sounded good when I wrote it.  Tear into it guys!   

FYI, the reason I bring up the Sapolsky videos is because he talks a lot about parts of our brain being co-opted for other functions. 
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Offline hypagoga

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2011, 06:42:19 PM »
Correction - the contention and ruckus is purely religious, which unfortunately seeps into politics and other areas like a disease.

My wife and I currently live in China. I can say from personal experience that there are plenty of young men here who have deep issues with homophobia sans a religious context. I do not pretend to be well versed on this issue, but I can at least say that anti-homosexual ideas don't have to have a religious origin.

Here is more on the subject of homosexuality in China than you might care to read. Yes, there is bigotry and hatred outside of religion - I didn't intend to claim otherwise. However, religion is a bastion of such hatred.

From my understanding (from reading, and from my Chinese postdoc and several colleagues from China), homosexuality is not such a big deal - it is mostly kept private. My understanding is that according to Confucianism and Taoism (which are arguably more philosophies than religions, although Taoism certainly has a polytheistic origin), there are elements that would make homosexuality be seen as a "bad thing". For example, the ultra importance of having children (especially boys!), and the balance of Yin and Yang. Although people may not necessarily relate directly to such religions/philosophies, it has certainly influenced the entirety of their cultural system, and therefore the "origins" of such bigotry can be viewed as religious.

Offline jedweber

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2011, 12:59:57 PM »
Correction - the contention and ruckus is purely religious, which unfortunately seeps into politics and other areas like a disease.

My wife and I currently live in China. I can say from personal experience that there are plenty of young men here who have deep issues with homophobia sans a religious context. I do not pretend to be well versed on this issue, but I can at least say that anti-homosexual ideas don't have to have a religious origin.

I lived in Taiwan for many years,  and I agree with you that there is a Chinese cultural bias against homosexuality (especially male), but I would say it's based less on a purely moral judgment than on the gay male not being able to fulfill his traditional role in the family: producing children, carrying on the family name, etc.

As hypogoga points out, this may be ultimately based on religious philosophies like Taoism and Confucianism (which demands filial pietyWiki).  Chinese traditional religion also includes a form of ancestor worship: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancestor_veneration_in_China

A man who fails to produce offspring (or a woman who remains a spinster) is seen as a rather pitiable figure - they break the family line, have no descendants to mourn them, practice the rituals associated with a happy afterlife, etc. To DELIBERATELY choose such a status (as they might imagine gays do) could be seen as perverse.  And these cultures also tend to favor conformity over individualism.

But I found that while older Taiwanese would often be quite disapproving of homosexuality AMONG THEIR OWN CHILDREN OR FAMILY MEMBERS, that didn't translate into intolerance against OTHER people being gay. Or at least the intolerance never reaches the level of vitriol seen here (there are almost no incidents of gay-bashing, even though gays have become very visible). Taiwanese lawmakers, even conservative ones, seem to have much less problem with things like gay rights legislation, which have often passed with little opposition. The ONE group which is an exception is the evangelical Christian minority, which uses the same type of anti-gay rhetoric seen here. However, as they represent only 3-4% of the population at most, they are largely ignored.   

So while a kind of "homophobia" is present in these cultures, one doesn't see the virulent strains sometimes seen in the West (or in Islamic countries). And I've seen articles claiming that tolerance for homosexuality in places like Japan and China actually decreased in the 19th century, as Western/Christian influence rose. So some of the homophobia of today may actually be imported.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2011, 03:04:07 PM »
Speaking for myself, I will be honest and admit that the concept of a male behaving or carrying himself in a non-masculine or feminine manner somehow bothers me.
As I try to analyze why I feel and frankly have always felt this way I have concluded that it is because I have a view of manhood as being superior and thus for a man to be the receiver as opposed to the "taker" in a sexual or relationship setting is unsettling. Knowing that many others feel as I do, I am led to believe that homophobia may in fact have many of its roots in patriachy and a fear that somehow the growth of male homosexuality is in some way a threat to male dominance.

Offline albeto

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2011, 03:42:53 PM »
Speaking for myself, I will be honest and admit that the concept of a male behaving or carrying himself in a non-masculine or feminine manner somehow bothers me.
As I try to analyze why I feel and frankly have always felt this way I have concluded that it is because I have a view of manhood as being superior and thus for a man to be the receiver as opposed to the "taker" in a sexual or relationship setting is unsettling. Knowing that many others feel as I do, I am led to believe that homophobia may in fact have many of its roots in patriachy and a fear that somehow the growth of male homosexuality is in some way a threat to male dominance.

Why, could it be that homophobia and misogyny are just a fundamental part of the Abrahamic faith?  Hmmm, that would explain, oh, everything.   

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2011, 04:46:11 PM »
Why, could it be that homophobia and misogyny are just a fundamental part of the Abrahamic faith?  Hmmm, that would explain, oh, everything.

It could if homophobia and misogyny were exclusive to those faiths, however there a many who would cast their fist to the very face of God who happen to be both homophobic and are misogynists.

Offline albeto

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2011, 04:54:43 PM »

It could if homophobia and misogyny were exclusive to those faiths, however there a many who would cast their fist to the very face of God who happen to be both homophobic and are misogynists.

Homophobia and misogyny being common outside the Abrahamic faiths has nothing to do with the fact they are still fundamental to these faiths. 

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2011, 04:58:08 PM »

It could if homophobia and misogyny were exclusive to those faiths, however there a many who would cast their fist to the very face of God who happen to be both homophobic and are misogynists.

Homophobia and misogyny being common outside the Abrahamic faiths has nothing to do with the fact they are still fundamental to these faiths.

Point taken, but how does that relate to the subject at hand more than pointing out that ONE reason homophobia exists is due to said religions?

Offline albeto

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2011, 05:17:45 PM »
Point taken, but how does that relate to the subject at hand more than pointing out that ONE reason homophobia exists is due to said religions?

In your OP you commented, "It is my belief from my personal experience that the root of the problem with homosexuality lies in virility and the concept of manhood."  I suspect this belief is a learned belief, not natural, and learned specifically from the teachings of your homophobic, misogynistic Christian faith. 

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2011, 04:04:54 PM »
From what I've learned, different cultures treat homosexuality differently.  I think there probably is a basis for homosexual prejudice in the Abrahamic faiths, but given that the Jews were wandering tribes for much of their history, and needed every tribe member to do their duty to the tribe, it's at least understandable.  We can look back at them from where we stand today, in countries with millions upon millions of people who are in no danger of simply dissolving into nothingness, and condemn them for their prejudices and ignorance, but I think we do ourselves the disfavor by so doing.

Now, that is not to say that those attitudes need to be carried into the present day without being evaluated, regardless of whether one believes God passed them down or they developed out of tribal needs.  I think it is important to make the distinction of what might have been necessary or useful as survival traits for tribes with dozens or hundreds of members, and what might be necessary or useful for religious faiths with millions of members.  I do not think we can afford to continue to justify intolerance and hatred of the 'other' because "God said so" thousands of years ago.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2011, 11:13:49 PM »
I'd say homosexuality is likely to vilified and feared, unless the religion actually openly advocates it. But it is a totally learned response, initially triggered by fear of not knowing a person you thought you did. (We have to put people in boxes in order for them to be predictable.)

HOMOPHOBIA in Buddhism?

Over the years I have met numerous gay men and women whose interest in Buddhism was initiated by the belief that Buddhism is a non-homophobic alternative to homophobic Judaeo-Christianity. Unfortunately, personal experience has taught me that while Buddhism may not have the overtly violent, homophobia of Western religion, homophobia does exist in Buddhism.

My earliest formal encounter with Buddhism was through heterosexual male Asian teachers whose sexism and homophobia surprise me. Since, unlike Western religious traditions, there are no strongly explicit homophobic statements in the Buddhist canons, it took me awhile to understand the origin of Buddhist homophobia. While I realized immediately that some of this was due to the extremely strong desire on the part of Asian families to have a long line of descendants this could not account for the homophobia I found in the Buddhist clergy, especially its celibate members.
Exploring this issue more deeply, I discovered that Buddhist homophobia like Western religious homophobia was directly related to their misogynous attitudes. In Buddhism this misogyny has been justified by certain statements attributed to the Buddha in both the Theravada and Mahayana texts. Misogyny is not only a dislike of women but a fear of anything feminine. Since gay men take on a feminine-like quality in the eyes of the heterosexual and patriarchal world, such men are perceived to be as inferior and as much a threat as are women.

I came to realize the major problem which Buddhism has with sex is that having originated in a monastic environment it never had any way of validating the sexual lives of the laity. The best it could do was to tolerate sex in the lay community. This, in turn, made me understand that no religious tradition, Eastern or Western, can be genuinely gay-friendly, unless it can accept sex, in and of itself, as having value. If sex is only valued as a means to an end, for example, reproduction, then sex can never really be viewed as inherently good. This means that those who participate in sexual activities, heterosexually or homosexually, for its own inherent pleasures, must be viewed as either sinners as in Christianity, or ignorant prisoners of lust as in Buddhism.

All this misogyny and homophobia almost turned me off from Buddhism, especially since I found that if I too openly advertise my gayness I would not be accepted by many Buddhist teachers. However, before abandoning Buddhism I was fortunate enough to meet my future Preceptor, the Zen abbess Venerable Karuna Dharma, and the Venerable Sarika Dharma. From these two women I not only learned about their own struggles against patriarchal and sexist attitudes in Buddhism, but realized that here were Buddhist teachers who had an open and accepting attitude towards my sexuality. Furthermore, it was these two venerable women who continued to be my main support as I advanced in the Buddhist hierarchy. If it had not been for them the homophobic feelings of some influential male teachers would have denied me my higher ordination as a Zen Dharma Teacher, and finally as a Zen master.


http://www.gayzenla.org/
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Offline jedweber

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2011, 08:08:47 AM »
... personal experience has taught me that while Buddhism may not have the overtly violent homophobia of Western religion, homophobia does exist in Buddhism...

I think this is a key difference, though. I lived in Thailand for a while, as well as Taiwan, and while there were certainly jokes and negative social attitudes towards homosexuality, there was none of the vehemence that you see in some circles here. The average person might not want to be one, but they accepted that they were part of society, and gay people (and transgenders in Thailand) went about openly and freely without seeming to upset anyone.

And there was none of the near OBSESSION with it that you see among some Christians here. 

Offline screwtape

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2011, 07:54:29 AM »
1. I think TOT's OP was pretty close to what I think about the matter.  I think men[1] find the idea of banging or getting banged by another man disgusting or dangerously exciting.  According to moral psychologist Jonathan Haidt, disgust is something that is incorporated into morality.  So, they see it as a moral thing. 

I think most adolescent boys go through a homophobic phase.  I have observed 10-13 year olds call each other "faggot" without really thinking about it.  Most of them seem to grow out of it.  Some do not.  I suspect they are the ones who actually are homosexual.  They feel they have to prove how not-gay they are and they do it by shouting the loudest.

2.  I think the role religion plays in homophobia is it serves to legitimize and institutionalize it, as it does with everything else.  I do not think it plays much of a role in making anyone bigots, though it may keep some people paying lip service to bigoted ideas.  It also serves to take any discussion or challenge to the status quo off the table, as it does in many other areas of "morality". 

When I was religious, the church did not do much to change my attitudes toward anything.  It just made me feel guilty for some of my positions.  Maybe I was an exception to the rule?  I dunno.


3.  I think all asian men are half gay[2].  And since I also think the loudest bigots are the ones who have homosexual inclinations, it makes sense to me that chinese culture is vocally anti-gay.  The Thai seem to be most comfortable with flexible sexuality.


 1. not all men, obviously, and some women, though I find most women are not so offended by homosexuality
 2. or more
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Offline ungod

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2011, 05:33:06 PM »
One thing the theologues never mention about homosexuality is the great miracle associated with it.
The development of a human from conception is a complex process, and fraught with risks. Almost anything can, and does, go wrong. There are more than 4,000 different known birth defects.
Sexuality involves the hardware and the software. Problems are known to arise with the "hardware", e.g. micro-penis, undescended testicles, hermaphrodism. (Odd that there's no mention of that in the Bible, seems that, like the Americas, God forgot He created hermaphrodites.)
But when it comes to the "software", this is where the miraculous occurs. You see, this is THE ONE AND ONLY THING WHERE NOTHING CAN GO WRONG!
All aberrations in this department are by CHOICE of the afflicted individual! Just ask your local theologue. The vast majority will proclaim at every opportunity that the Gay "lifestyle" is a CHOICE.
It is surprising how they downplay the obvious miracle of this singular exemption from birth defects!
You'd think that the kind loving Creator would have made other, more harmful afflictions impossible, but He seems as obsessed with other people's sex lives as His followers.
 &)
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2011, 01:06:14 PM »
Speaking for myself, I will be honest and admit that the concept of a male behaving or carrying himself in a non-masculine or feminine manner somehow bothers me.
As I try to analyze why I feel and frankly have always felt this way I have concluded that it is because I have a view of manhood as being superior and thus for a man to be the receiver as opposed to the "taker" in a sexual or relationship setting is unsettling. Knowing that many others feel as I do, I am led to believe that homophobia may in fact have many of its roots in patriachy and a fear that somehow the growth of male homosexuality is in some way a threat to male dominance.
Female and homosexual male brains are similar....I will try to find it

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/jun/16/neuroscience.psychology
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 01:07:56 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline Klokinator

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2011, 06:18:34 PM »
Personally,I was born and raised as a JW (Jehovah's Witness) my whole life (I'm 19 now) and one of the things bred into me was "Hate all gays and faggots". Thing is, I never really hated them. I don't want to be gay, I don't want to feel the uncomfortable sensation of an erect manhood slipping into my ass, but I don't hate others who do. I always did feel pretty apprehensive around gay men though, until I turned 17, got the hell out of my religion (Thank godddd... oh lol, the puns.) and then I made friends with this nice black guy.

Took me a loooong time, and it wasn't until his boyfriend called him that I realized he was gay, and I was like... WOW GAY PEOPLE ARE JUST LIKE NORMAL PEOPLE! Now instead of just "not hating them" I find that usually they're far nicer and more tolerant than most other bigoted christians.

Btw, yay my first post here :D Linked here from the Jesus Birther Movement on facebook. Is there a way for me to edit my signature and avatar on this site? I feel completely "naked" without them lol.

Offline HelenaKurai

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2011, 09:26:36 AM »
Homophobia was highlighted greatly in the Bible, which was written by finite men. Men who were uncomfortable with the idea, as they always have been if they are not homosexual.

While not homophobic as they were at that time, men today still fear difference, especially that which they view as uncomfortable or extremely personal, such as sexuality that includes members of the same sex. In my opinion, that will never truly change, regardless of religion influence, rather than *because* of religious influence.

Offline wright

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2011, 10:59:24 PM »
Welcome, Klokinator and HelenaKurai  :D !

While not homophobic as they were at that time, men today still fear difference, especially that which they view as uncomfortable or extremely personal, such as sexuality that includes members of the same sex. In my opinion, that will never truly change, regardless of religion influence, rather than *because* of religious influence.

While it's true there are and likely always will be people who are uncomfortable with the very concept of homosexuality, it's also true that attitudes can change. What would your definition of "truly change" be?

At least in Europe, the US and parts of Asia, there is a far greater acceptance of homosexuals than there was even a few decades ago. That is, in my opinion, a significant change for the better.

And certainly homophobia is not dependent on religious doctrine for it to exist. But if the homophobic aspects of the major religions were reduced, do you really think that wouldn't influence the behavior of their followers?
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2011, 11:26:56 AM »
I don't know whether this is related or not, but it seems to me that Western society is becoming more and more androgenus (sk?). Being "overly" manly and masculinity in general seems more frowned upon now than before. Children, boys that exhibit traits that for eons have been attributed to boys being boys are now being medicated and diagnosed. Many believe ADHD is another way of describing a little person with 2 nuts and a cock. And it seems that we are progressing to a state where masculinity could potentially be medicated out and replaced by metrosexuallity and that which femininity fancies. 

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2011, 12:08:10 PM »
I don't know whether this is related or not, but it seems to me that Western society is becoming more and more androgenus (sk?). Being "overly" manly and masculinity in general seems more frowned upon now than before. Children, boys that exhibit traits that for eons have been attributed to boys being boys are now being medicated and diagnosed. Many believe ADHD is another way of describing a little person with 2 nuts and a cock. And it seems that we are progressing to a state where masculinity could potentially be medicated out and replaced by metrosexuallity and that which femininity fancies.

I think there's a lot of truth to that.

I remember an occasion a few years ago when I was reading Dan Savage's sex-advice column, Savage Love.  He said that in a recent column he had written, he said that oral sex, which used to be pretty "out there", sexually, in American society, was now more or less standard and expected.  That being the case, he said, women have an obligation to give oral sex to their boyfriends/husbands/guys they're having sex with.

In response, he immediately received thousands and thousands of outraged emails, screaming at him that nobody owed anything to anybody else in bed, that he was setting back the women's rights movement, and even that his column was "the moral equivalent of rape".  He refused to back down from what he had said in his original column.  He also pointed out that a few years prior to that, he had also written a column stating that men have an obligation to give oral sex to women when they go to bed with him, and that column generated absolutely no objections whatsoever -- not the smallest peep of protest.

I think that this kind of one-sided equality is a result of the feminist movement, and it's because of things like this (which we've been seeing more and more often over the past thirty or forty years) that I'm not a big fan of feminism.  It's a shame, because feminists do have some legitimate complaints, but when I see stuff like this, I just can't get behind it because I can't justify tolerating the adverse results in order to promote the good ones.
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Offline HelenaKurai

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2011, 05:24:39 AM »
While it's true there are and likely always will be people who are uncomfortable with the very concept of homosexuality, it's also true that attitudes can change. What would your definition of "truly change" be?

I imagine my definition of true change in homphobia would be the eradication of the discrimination entirely. Or for it lessen to such an extent that it is never really mentioned as a point of concern. Which I imagine is unlikely in this society, even in my lifetime (myself being 16.)  &)

Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2011, 09:27:34 AM »
I don't know whether this is related or not, but it seems to me that Western society is becoming more and more androgenus (sk?). Being "overly" manly and masculinity in general seems more frowned upon now than before. Children, boys that exhibit traits that for eons have been attributed to boys being boys are now being medicated and diagnosed. Many believe ADHD is another way of describing a little person with 2 nuts and a cock. And it seems that we are progressing to a state where masculinity could potentially be medicated out and replaced by metrosexuallity and that which femininity fancies.


Where in the sam-fuckin-hill do you get these ideas man ?!  ;D

So then, who or what, is behind this state wide loss of masculinity and male love of lady like fancies, and dare I say, production of homosexuals ?

Do the theists believe we have a conspiracy on our hands ? ...Is it those powerful feminists that are behind this new girly-boy syndrome ?!! ...Is it those tricky atheist scientists who want to stick it to the uncivilized and unscientific bible god for his "stone the fags" command ?!! Perhaps it's those gnarly bearded, goat loving, holy book thumping, misogynistic dessert dwellers putting something in the water to make western civilized men to look all pussy and everything ?!! .......Just what the hell is going on then ?!!!!!  :o  &)

Look, having an open disdain or phobia of homosexuality and those in gay relationships, is behaving irrationally and childish. Who the fuck is anyone, in this day and age, to think they have a moral say in this type of consenting behaviour ? People just need to grow the fuck up and shut the fuck up and stop acting like they're some type of moral authority and police force. What goes on in the sexual and relational lives and bedrooms of mature, responsible, and consenting adults is their business alone, and should not be the business or concern of others and their personal "views" and dislikes. Views on these matters are subjective and can be dead wrong and outright bigoted.

My homophobia as a former theist came out as the view that gays were severely fucked up, demon possessed, and hell-bound. (I just feel like punching myself in the fucking face as I type this and make that confession). That's christian based homophobia just about at its worst.... But secularist homophobia is no better, and perhaps is more disgusting, as they don't have religion as a motivator and so that excuse is removed and therefore leaves them with little or nothing rational to base their hatred or phobia on.

All people, religious or not, just need to SHUT UP on this benign behaviour, and keep their discriminatory and irrelevant to the issue opinions to themselves. Violent behaviour towards gays is of course criminal and should be dealt with as necessary and to the full extent of the law.

 ;)

 
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 09:36:23 AM by gonegolfing »
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2011, 10:04:39 AM »
As long as there is a clearly defined divide in the gender roles of males and females, homosexuality, especially male homosexuality will be frowned upon my many, especially men.

The attitude sort of goes like this:
"Oh, so she's a lesbian, well that ain't no did deal, to each his own."
"Dude gay!? You f'in kidding me right? I don't see how a man can let himself be another man's bitch. That's a got damn shame."

This attitude is reflective of the "back of mind" belief that I believe many men have had for generations, no eons, and that is the belief that manhood is in a sense godlike and should be respected, esteemed, and never lowered to the weaker position.
In the case of homosexuality, sexuality is component or charactoristic that others (real men, whatever that implies) see and view as non manly, and thus worthy of ridicule and disrespect. It is similar to, in my mind, the reason why the "wimpy" kid gets picked on and why the "man's man" tends to live in a way that reflects a view of entitlement as a man that non "manly men" somehow forefit. Women tend to reinforce this view in the way that they select and view men as well. What perhaps reinforces it more is that many of those looked at as less deserving of the benefits of manhood by those who consider themselves the epitome of manhood often seem to look up to, envy, or sort of worship those types of men.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 10:08:18 AM by Truth OT »

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2011, 10:30:31 AM »
Where in the sam-fuckin-hill do you get these ideas man ?!  ;D

So then, who or what, is behind this state wide loss of masculinity and male love of lady like fancies, and dare I say, production of homosexuals ?

Do the theists believe we have a conspiracy on our hands ? ...Is it those powerful feminists that are behind this new girly-boy syndrome ?!! ...Is it those tricky atheist scientists who want to stick it to the uncivilized and unscientific bible god for his "stone the fags" command ?!! Perhaps it's those gnarly bearded, goat loving, holy book thumping, misogynistic dessert dwellers putting something in the water to make western civilized men to look all pussy and everything ?!! .......Just what the hell is going on then ?!!!!!  :o  &)

I get these ideas because I live in a world where I see and experience the wussification of men in general. Calm down, no conspirancy theory is in play and this issue, like it or not crosses the lives of theists and atheists alike. As far as who's behind it, I have no clue nor do I wish to accuse anyone of conspiring against men. It may just be time and chance that's behind it all. I do believe that feminism has had an effect, but how big, I can't really say. The increased number of single parent households where there is no male role model plays a much larger role in my opinion.

Look, having an open disdain or phobia of homosexuality and those in gay relationships, is behaving irrationally and childish. Who the fuck is anyone, in this day and age, to think they have a moral say in this type of consenting behaviour ? People just need to grow the fuck up and shut the fuck up and stop acting like they're some type of moral authority and police force. What goes on in the sexual and relational lives and bedrooms of mature, responsible, and consenting adults is their business alone, and should not be the business or concern of others and their personal "views" and dislikes. Views on these matters are subjective and can be dead wrong and outright bigoted.

My homophobia as a former theist came out as the view that gays were severely fucked up, demon possessed, and hell-bound. (I just feel like punching myself in the fucking face as I type this and make that confession). That's christian based homophobia just about at its worst.... But secularist homophobia is no better, and perhaps is more disgusting, as they don't have religion as a motivator and so that excuse is removed and therefore leaves them with little or nothing rational to base their hatred or phobia on.

All people, religious or not, just need to SHUT UP on this benign behaviour, and keep their discriminatory and irrelevant to the issue opinions to themselves. Violent behaviour towards gays is of course criminal and should be dealt with as necessary and to the full extent of the law.

Moral high ground is not the issue here, at least it's not what I'm discussing. What I'm discussing is the realities of how people feel about it and perhaps why that is the case. Violent behavior and hate is by no means justified or advocated, but the fact of the matter is that people are gonna have their opinions and there is little that can be done about that other than shunning those that act violently and discriminatory towards their fellow man.

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2011, 10:32:21 AM »
Explain what you mean by "wussification".
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Homophobia
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2011, 11:03:37 AM »
Explain what you mean by "wussification".

Where to begin.............

Starting with boys, the rambunciousness that was always expected is now more than ever looked at as promblematic. More and more boys are being druged with meds like methylphenidate, (aka ritalin), to tone down that which in many cases is natural for boys.

Jumping to manhood, ever notice how non athletic, non celebrity men are depicted commercially? Men are typically depicted as bumbling, studipd, can't get rights who are totally lost without some female guidance. Fathers cannot handle the home or the kids, so when mom's away, all hell breaks loose because the man is incapable. All men are good for is grunting, watching a game, and occasionally may be rewarded with a sexual treat if they are good widdle boys.