Author Topic: Incest  (Read 1597 times)

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Offline violatedsmurf80

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Incest
« on: September 23, 2011, 07:06:12 PM »
I haven’t addressed many of the Christians on this site and I thought I would ask them this. 
Since the Bible doesn't say that God created other females except Eve, Cain marred his niece and Seth married someone else in his direct family tree. The bible also talks about how we shouldn’t have incest, per se Leviticus 18:6-7, Leviticus 20:11-23, and Deut. 27:22, but in these verses Genesis 19:30-36, 1 Corinthians 7:36-38, and II Kings 13:1-2 they had incest. This is among the few that I could think of. Please do not use the excuse that most scholars use which is “God suspended the laws of incest in the early days of man in order to ensure that man spread on the earth”.
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Incest
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2011, 07:33:22 PM »
An easy reason why the bible doesn't make much sense, especially as a literal interpretation of god's laws or natural laws ... Some guy was doin' their own sisters and nieces way back when ... probably their own mother, too.

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Offline changeling

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Re: Incest
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2011, 05:20:32 AM »
Maybe that was the real reason that Cain killed Able.
He thought that it was his turn with his mom,  Eve.
The level of dumb they have to sell, is only made remotely possible by the level of flocking their sheep are willing to do in the name of rewards for no thought. quote: Kin Hell

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Offline Chronos

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Re: Incest
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2011, 07:40:42 AM »
Maybe that was the real reason that Cain killed Able.

A further complication in the goal to spread seed: Kill half of it early on in the process.

Not only is the original premise illogical, but so are the tactics that soon followed.

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Incest
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2011, 10:32:16 PM »
What about Noah......who did he procreat with after the flood?
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Incest
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2011, 10:40:13 PM »
Goats?
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Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: Incest
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2011, 11:41:34 AM »
What about Noah......who did he procreat with after the flood?

Noah's wife is never named, although for some reason they say that there are only two instances of approved incest in the bible, but the rest was not. I think it had to do a lot to do with the view changing because of the royal line in England. I think that this bible that every one loves so much was more so a political book than anything else.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Incest
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2011, 10:02:59 AM »
Adam & Eve were actually father and daughter (since Eve apparently came from Adam).  And, when they had children, and since they were blood-related, that's how the whole of the world became retarded.

;)

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

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Offline Avatar Of Belial

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Re: Incest
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2011, 01:11:08 PM »
Adam & Eve were actually father and daughter (since Eve apparently came from Adam).  And, when they had children, and since they were blood-related, that's how the whole of the world became retarded.

Well, wait... wouldn't "God" be the father? And since Eve came from Adam, wouldn't that make him the mother?

...

...

Adam and Eve were lesbians!
   It all makes sense now.  &)
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Incest
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2011, 08:02:45 PM »
Well, wait... wouldn't "God" be the father? And since Eve came from Adam, wouldn't that make him the mother?

That's the biggest reason for Christians to support transgendered people -- they are only representatives of their ancestors.

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Offline Omega

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Re: Incest
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2011, 12:19:59 PM »
we need to look into context here .
bible has nothing against incest or anything else if it is used fro procreation.

I dont remember exact quotes but there is story when one woman pretended to be prostitute to get pregnant
also god killed Onan because he refused to impregnate his wife.

so entire bible is constructed in a way to promote procreation.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Incest
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2011, 02:26:03 PM »
The woman in both stories was Tamar.  Her husband, Er, son of Judah, was wicked and was killed by yhwh before they had children.  As in ass-backward islamic nations today, a woman only had value in the context of men, and a woman without a man to support her could not survive.  So it was the custom for a brother-in-law to impregnate a sonless widow.  Onan, Er's brother, kept "spilling his seed on the ground", so yhwh killed him too.[1]  Judah still had one son, but told Tamar to wait because he was afraid that son would come to the same fate.

Tamar, not having a son, was not sufficiently protected socially, so she disguised herself as a prostitute and snagged Judah.  She kept his staff and seal as a deposit and got pregnant.  The staff and seal saved her later when her pregnancy became manifest and others accused her of adultery.  It made the point to Judah that he had wronged her by not getting her knocked up by his last son in the first place.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+38&version=NIV

The story is not so much about promoting procreation as it is a very primitive story of women's rights and justice.  It is actually one example of a strong, assertive woman in the bible.  Take that with a grain of salt though.  There is a lot to complain about in the story from a woman's perspective.

 1. interesting that yhwh was hands-on enough to kill the wicked, but could not see clear to help out Tamar with an immaculate conception.  Then again, yhwh always was kind of a douche...
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Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: Incest
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2011, 02:42:41 PM »
we need to look into context here .
bible has nothing against incest or anything else if it is used fro procreation.

I dont remember exact quotes but there is story when one woman pretended to be prostitute to get pregnant
also god killed Onan because he refused to impregnate his wife.

so entire bible is constructed in a way to promote procreation.

 which makes no sense because because King David caused a woman to cheat on her husband then King David sent him to the front line but he kill Onan because he refused to impregnate his wife. What a wonderful GoD.  :o
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Offline Omega

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Re: Incest
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2011, 03:37:57 PM »
But still the main idea is that if you do something to get pregnant  or impregnate someone then any means are good.
you can also see that rape is crime unless you marry your victim and of course make her pregnant later or end as Onan.

if you do exact same act for fun it is crime

Offline changeling

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Re: Incest
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2011, 03:57:39 PM »
Yep, even Lots daughters making whoopee with their drunk dad is
somehow supposed to be an inspiring story.
The level of dumb they have to sell, is only made remotely possible by the level of flocking their sheep are willing to do in the name of rewards for no thought. quote: Kin Hell

"Faith is the enemy of evidence, for when we know the truth, no faith is required." Graybeard

Offline screwtape

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Re: Incest
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2011, 07:08:21 AM »
But still the main idea is that if you do something to get pregnant  or impregnate someone then any means are good.

No.  That's not the main idea in the story of Tamar.  As I already explained, that was a story that promoted a very specific social custom from that time and place.  It is not a story that just promotes reproduction.


Yep, even Lots daughters making whoopee with their drunk dad is somehow supposed to be an inspiring story.

not necessarily.  When undertaking the nearly impossible task of trying to understand what the bible "really" means, you have to keep in mind what it was used for in it's day.  It was the hebrews' national myth, the history they made up about themselves. 

They were not one people who were lead out of slavery from Egypt.  That never happened.  They were diverse tribes across Canaan.  They were two nations[1] whose peoples had to merge when Israel was destroyed.  The pentateuch[2] was a way to assimilate all these people by assimilating their tribal stories and myths.  This is why the bible is inconsistent, incoherent and contradictory.  Sometimes a story was written by the tribe it was about.  Others, it was written by another tribe who had more political power.  The story of Lot humping his daughters was likely written by a tribe that was not descended from Lot and was meant to be derogatory toward them.

 1. Israel in the north and Judah in the south
 2. the first 5 books of the OT
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 07:18:10 AM by screwtape »
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Offline Nam

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Re: Incest
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2011, 09:05:12 AM »
Don't forget the two daughters who got their father drunk just so they could fuck him.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline screwtape

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Re: Incest
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2011, 09:48:06 AM »
Don't forget the two daughters who got their father drunk just so they could fuck him.

-Nam

That was Lot.  The story we have been talking about for the last couple posts.  Keep up.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Incest
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2011, 09:48:48 AM »
^My apologies. I'm doing 5 things at once, and I have little time to do it in.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Graybeard

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Re: Incest
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2011, 11:26:30 AM »
Le:18 & 20: You shall not uncover the nakedness (i.e. have sexual intercourse with or purposely see them naked) of thy father,
mother,
father's wife,
sister,
the daughter of thy father,
daughter of thy mother (whether she be born at home, or born abroad)
son's daughter,
daughter's daughter,
father's sister,
mother's sister,
father's brother or his wife,
daughter in law,
brother's wife (whilst he is alive), 
a woman and her daughter, together or with her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter,
your wife’s sister (whilst your wife is alive and if your wife does not agree),
any woman having a period.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline changeling

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Re: Incest
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2011, 12:09:24 PM »
  The story of Lot humping his daughters was likely written by a tribe that was not descended from Lot and was meant to be derogatory toward them.

The entire story is screwed up from beginning to end.
First, Lot lives with his two daughters and their husbands.
But Lot was going to give his two married but virgin daughters
to the crowd to do with as they wanted. Man, they must have been
ugly to still be virgins, plus the mob didn't want them when offered.

Now Lot flees with his wife and daughters, but leave their husbands
back in Sodom. what's up with that?

They then go to the town of Zoar which was saved from destruction
so that Lot and his family would have someplace to go.
So everyone knew that the entire world had not been destroyed.
Yet when they went to a cave in the mountains, his daughters thought
that there were no men left so they had to get pregnant with their dad.

This one story must have been written by three different people, none of whom
even bothered to read what the other's had written.
The level of dumb they have to sell, is only made remotely possible by the level of flocking their sheep are willing to do in the name of rewards for no thought. quote: Kin Hell

"Faith is the enemy of evidence, for when we know the truth, no faith is required." Graybeard

Offline Omega

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Re: Incest
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2011, 01:38:36 PM »
Yet when they went to a cave in the mountains, his daughters thought
that there were no men left so they had to get pregnant with their dad.

This one story must have been written by three different people, none of whom
even bothered to read what the other's had written.

If  I remember it correctly lot daughters did that to preserve lots family bloodline at all cost.
It is not that they enjoyed that act but it is their sacrifice.


there also can be another reason behind that story  to present Moabites and Ammonites who were decedents of lots family as some inbreed lower race.

Offline Ivellios

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Re: Incest
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2011, 01:56:37 PM »
I remember reading this and this is how I remember it:

Lot and his daughters were living in a cave and they wanted to meet some local guys, but Lot forbid them to have anything to do with any local man. (Saving them for Isaac, or his plan all along?) So that's when they took turns to get him drunk and themselves impregnated. He clearly knew who the father was since he didn't complain[1] or ask them who the father(s) was/were.

Lot was a Godly and righteous man after all.
 1. punish them for "sneaking out"

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Incest
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2011, 02:05:38 PM »
Yet when they went to a cave in the mountains, his daughters thought
that there were no men left so they had to get pregnant with their dad.

This one story must have been written by three different people, none of whom
even bothered to read what the other's had written.

If  I remember it correctly lot daughters did that to preserve lots family bloodline at all cost.
It is not that they enjoyed that act but it is their sacrifice.


there also can be another reason behind that story  to present Moabites and Ammonites who were decedents of lots family as some inbreed lower race.

Another thing to note was that the individuals that participated in incestous relations were not congradulated or applauded for doing so. It appears that they, some of them, simply got away with the deed.

--------
To address the OP, I'm not sure if I qualify as a Christian anymore, but I will share my take/opinion on the matter based on how I understand the scriptural texts.

First off, we should bear in mind that Lev. 18 tells the reader the following (I won’t address the text of Deut. Because the book is but a restating of much of what was written in Leviticus and thus, redundant):
Quote
Then Jehovah spoke to Moses and said, 2 'Speak to the children of IsraEl, and tell them [this]: I am Jehovah your God. 3 So, you must not do the things that were done in Egypt where you [used to] live, or follow the ways of the [people in] the land of CanaAn where I am taking you… don't do these [things] and don't follow their rules! 4 You must obey and follow My decisions and keep My rules, for I am Jehovah your God. 5 So, follow all My rules and all My decisions! Follow them in such a way [that you learn to] live by them; for I am Jehovah your God!.............
26 'You must keep all My Laws and all My rules. And neither the native peoples nor the aliens who come to live among you may do any of these disgusting things. 27 Because, these are the disgusting things that the people who lived there before you did, and it polluted the land. 28 So, don't offend the land by polluting it, as did the people who I am driving away. 29 Any person who does any of these disgusting things must be destroyed from among your people.
Lev. 20 speaks about the punishment for not abiding by said regs. Notice that the text is only addressed to THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL and those that would come to live in the land of promise with them.

Secondly, prior to the establishment of this law, readers are not told that such regs existed. That means that the case of Cain, Seth, Abram and Sarah, as well as the incident involving Lot and his lil freaky daughters occurred prior to the establishment of these regs and therefore it is difficult for one to make the case that these individuals violated a law that had yet to be established.

To the OP, when you mention “the laws of incest”, what do you specifically mean? Are you suggesting that those laws were applicable to those other than the Israelites and those that cohabited with them in the ancient land of promise? If so; why? 

Offline screwtape

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Re: Incest
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2011, 03:48:48 PM »
Man, they must have been
ugly to still be virgins, plus the mob didn't want them when offered.

Now Lot flees with his wife and daughters, but leave their husbands
back in Sodom. what's up with that?

I don't remember them being married, but maybe the husbands were not into women?  They were Sodomites, afterall...

This one story must have been written by three different people, none of whom even bothered to read what the other's had written.

very possible. In the Documentary HypothesisWiki, the pentateuch is believed to have been written and edited by at least 4 sources - the J[1], the E[2], the P[3] and the D[4]

For a great, in depth read on the topic, I recommend Who Wrote the Bible, by Richard Elliot Friedman. You can find it as a free pdf around the net.


there also can be another reason behind that story  to present Moabites and Ammonites who were decedents of lots family as some inbreed lower race.

exactly what I was talking about.
 1. for Jahwist, a source from Judah where they called god "yhwh"
 2. for Elohist, a source from Israel where they called god "Elohim"
 3. Priestly writer, who wrote the stuff the priests would be most concerned with
 4. for Deuteronomist, the guy who primarily wrote deuteronomy
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Offline changeling

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Re: Incest
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2011, 04:45:31 AM »
I don't remember them being married, but maybe the husbands were not into women?  They were Sodomites, afterall...


According to the angels, Lot not only had sons in law to his daughters, he also had sons.
None of whom fled with him. Then his wife had to be destroyed so that there would be an excuse
to screw his daughters.
That was a well thought out plot.

I think you are right. It sounds like it was written to make Lot and his family look like fools.
The level of dumb they have to sell, is only made remotely possible by the level of flocking their sheep are willing to do in the name of rewards for no thought. quote: Kin Hell

"Faith is the enemy of evidence, for when we know the truth, no faith is required." Graybeard