Is atheism the default position?

[Aaron123]

Let's see what we can glean from god-evil so far.

God-evil:

-Admits his mistakes and takes responsibilities for them.

-Will not order someone to kill his son as a test of character.

-Will not commit genocide by flooding.  Apparently, will not commit genocide as a first or last resort.

-Will not create a place of eternal torment.

...

Now why the fuck would I want to worship "good god"?  Thus far, God-evil seems like such a sweetheart.

[Alzael]

@ Alzeal God created Satan not evil. Satan created evil by rebelling agasinst God. It's like you raised a child to be good but because of peer pressure your child ends up drinking. are you to blame because of peer pressure! NO!

Still does not actually address the argument. Also your analogy is flawed.

If I raised a child to be good, he would not have started drinking in the first place because of peer pressure. That's what it means to raise a child up right. It means that you have raised them and taught them to make the right choices. So clearly this theoretical child was not raised right.

Your analogy also fails pitifully because I am not a god. I cannot reshape reality with my very will, god can. God could have made Satan incapable of evil. God could have stopped him at anytime. God could have prevented him from spreading evil. God could have made humans incapable of giving in to evil. And, being an all-knowing being, god knew before he even created Satan that he would turn evil. As well as knowing that it would spread to his other creations.

God created Satan, knowing full well ahead of time that he was going to be a force for evil in the world, and created him anyways.

So yes, god is entirely responsible for evil, and you still have not made a single rational argument that shows otherwise. So far all you've done is shove your fingers up your nose and go "nu-uh" like a petulant child. But keep trying, it's highly amusing to watch you flail about if nothing else.

[Astreja]

smoking out Satan thus proved God made a mistake which is why God didn't kill Satan in the first place. get it!

So your alleged god is more worried about making a mistake than about alleviating the suffering of billions of thinking, feeling beings?

And you actually worship this god?

Dear, sweet uncle Loki... Why?

[Alzael]

smoking out Satan thus proved God made a mistake which is why God didn't kill Satan in the first place. get it!

So your alleged god is more worried about making a mistake than about alleviating the suffering of billions of thinking, feeling beings?

And you actually worship this god?

Dear, sweet uncle Loki... Why?

Actually not even. His god isn't worried about making a mistake. His god is worried about admitting that it made a mistake. Even though apparently Lance already knows that it made a mistake and is telling everyone who will listen.

How's that for a fucked up theology?

[Lance]

you people are so mind-neutered you can't actually think outside the "box."

@ Asreja God is perfect he cannot and will not make a mistake. Satan made a mistake by rebelling against God and God will instead of wiping satan off instantly will do the ardous work of proving him wrong through us. And Satan will learn to repent in the end and God is God.

@ Alzeal how in the world would you know that the child you raised soo right won't be corrupted by peer pressure and influences. You are out of this world dude

[Lance]

Again, God didn't create EVIl. Satan did!

[Aaron123]

Lance, I'd still like you to answer my questions. 

What would "bad god" do in reaction to Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge?

"Good god" ordered a man to kill his son as a test of character.  Would "bad god" do such a thing?  Yes or no.  If yes, then how is it different?  If no, then why?

"Good god" ordered the slaughter of everyone already living in the promised land to make room for his chosen ones.  What would "bad god" have done instead?

"Good god" once killed a baby sired by King David.  Would "bad god" have done this?  Yes or no.  If yes, then how is it different?  If no, then why?

[Astreja]

you people are so mind-neutered you can't actually think outside the "box."

Lance, unless you happen to be telepathic you are simply not in a position to determine how or what we think.  Furthermore, a good many of us came from Christian backgrounds and once believed as you did.  Please give this serious consideration.

@ Asreja God is perfect he cannot and will not make a mistake.

On the contrary:  Read Genesis 6:6...

The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

Sounds like a mistake to Me.

Satan made a mistake by rebelling against God and God will instead of wiping satan off instantly will do the ardous work of proving him wrong through us.

That's sick and immoral -- Allowing your worst enemy to run rampant across a populated planet?  Your god is a monster.

[jynnan tonnix]

you people are so mind-neutered you can't actually think outside the "box."

@ Asreja God is perfect he cannot and will not make a mistake. Satan made a mistake by rebelling against God and God will instead of wiping satan off instantly will do the ardous work of proving him wrong through us. And Satan will learn to repent in the end and God is God.

I don't know what your thinking is on hell, because we haven't yet covered that as far as I have seen (although I believe someone did ask you that on another thread, so I may have missed it).

But on the assumption that you do believe the doctrine wherein every human ever created is deserving of hell and only by repentance and belief in God can they be saved, how does this work in Satan's case? What happens when Satan learns to repent? If repentance and belief are cornerstones of salvation, will he be damned anyway? How is that consistent with the rest of the story?

[Alzael]

@ Alzeal how in the world would you know that the child you raised soo right won't be corrupted by peer pressure and influences. You are out of this world dude

Because if she was, then clearly I didn't raise her right. If I had raised her right, she would make the right choices. That's what it means to raise a child right. You do graps the basic concept of what certain words and terms mean, right?

Again, God didn't create EVIl. Satan did!

You can keep saying it over and over again all that you want. But saying it a million times still doesn't address the points that I made once. I just finished showing you that yes he did. Do you have a reasoned argument to go against it or not? Simply asserting something over and over again does not refute my points. It does make you look severely lacking in intelligence however.

So the point remains, god is clearly responsible for all of the evil in the world, correct? Because you seem unable to make a case otherwise.

[Alzael]

you people are so mind-neutered you can't actually think outside the "box."

We think outside of the box all the time. It's just that we don't think in your particular box, and that's what's driving you nuts. Because we're a constant reminder of just how small and poorly taped together your little box is.

[Lance]

my box is not taped it's sealed with words of truth and you're ever non-ending pointless arguments is pointless without truth. again as I stated before God did not create evil Satan did. You're trying to link evil with through Satan because God created Satan. Are you telling me that if a person commits murder, we ought to through his parents in Jail? I think you're too stupid to answer. LOL!

[Astreja]

my box is not taped it's sealed with words of truth...

You have not yet demonstrated that you possess the truth.  You are merely asserting this, without supporting evidence.

again as I stated before God did not create evil Satan did.

Even if that were the case, your god has allegedly chosen to wait and let Satan rampage the length and breadth of the earth, causing death and destruction.

Are you telling me that if a person commits murder, we ought to through his parents in Jail?

Bad analogy.  It's more like a parent knowing that their child is a murderer and hindering the police's efforts to arrest him... Which is a crime (Accessory after the fact) in most jurisdictions that I am aware of.

[Alzael]

my box is not taped it's sealed with words of truth and you're ever non-ending pointless arguments is pointless without truth. again as I stated before God did not create evil Satan did. You're trying to link evil with through Satan because God created Satan. Are you telling me that if a person commits murder, we ought to through his parents in Jail? I think you're too stupid to answer. LOL!

But I have answered. I've been waiting on your answer, remember? And here we go with the Ad Hominem attacks. Always the refuge of every theist when they're cornered and have nothing.

Again, your analogy is pitifully flawed.

If a parent knows before they have their child that he will commit murder, but have the child anyways. If the parents have the power to prevent the murder at will, at anytime, but don't. If the parents can literally wave their hands and make their child incapable of committing murder. If the parents know that their childs spree of murder is going to cause other murders, but do nothing to stop it, even thought they could do so at anytime.

How exactly are they not more guilty of murder than their child who committed the murder? This is the point that you keep hiding away from. You keep trying to assert over and over again that Satan was the one who created evil. However it doesn't work because you still have not explained away gods part in all of this. He knew it would happen. He created the one who caused it. He did not stop it, though he could have. He did not bother to make Satan incapable of it. He could get rid of it at any point. He could have stopped it from spreading, and everything else I pointed out. What you have still failed to answer is," How does this not make everything gods fault?" You can't blame Satan for evil because god created him knowing he was going to do it. He only did as his creator intended, which must have been gods intention because he did nothing to stop it from happening.

Like I said. I answered several times. I'm waiting for you to catch up to me. Apparently I'm going to be waiting a long time.

my box is not taped it's sealed with words of truth and you're ever non-ending pointless arguments is pointless without truth.

If you have truth then where is your evidence to support what you say? If you don't have evidence, then it's a lie to say that you have truth. So then this should be easy for you. Just show us the evidence you have and we can put this whole thing to rest.

[Lance]

going back to my original post, God didn't stop evil because like I said it was Satan who created it so technically Satan is the source of all evil therefore in order to expunge evil, Satan would be the answer and that is how the story begins with Adama and Eve. God knows everythign.

[Aaron123]

Lance, once again, I'd still like you to answer my questions.  Don't ignore me.

What would "bad god" do in reaction to Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge?

"Good god" ordered a man to kill his son as a test of character.  Would "bad god" do such a thing?  Yes or no.  If yes, then how is it different?  If no, then why?

"Good god" ordered the slaughter of everyone already living in the promised land to make room for his chosen ones.  What would "bad god" have done instead?

"Good god" once killed a baby sired by King David.  Would "bad god" have done this?  Yes or no.  If yes, then how is it different?  If no, then why?

[Lance]

@ Aaron First of all, a bad god won't have to detemination to create adam and eve because he would have killed Satan in the first place thus rendering useless the purpose of creating adam and eve. in a way, a bad god would be to lazy to get things right on behalf of those who got it wrong initially.

a bad god won't ordered a man to test his faith because he doesn't give a fuck what man thinks!

bad god won't kill baby because he likes adultery. and good God didn't kill baby he cut his life short, maybe baby is in heaven with him but the point is to get David learn his mistakes.

anymore?

[Alzael]

going back to my original post, God didn't stop evil because like I said it was Satan who created it so technically Satan is the source of all evil therefore in order to expunge evil, Satan would be the answer and that is how the story begins with Adama and Eve. God knows everythign.

This is nonsensical however. What you are saying is that god didn't stop Satan from creating evil. But god created all of this to do away with evil. So it still brings up the initial flaws that were pointed out before. God could have stopped all of this long before. Could have prevented all of this. Could in fact stop it instantly, with no need for this Adam and Eve, create humanity thing. If god wanted to expunge evil and redeem Satan as you claim, he could do it at anytime he wanted. Instead he doesn't and has created this whole round about way of doing things, for no reason that you have yet bothered to explain.

This is why you are an utter failure at this. Because even if we accept your constant claims that Satan is the source of evil, it still makes god the one who is mostly at fault.

He created Satan knowing that Satan would in turn create evil (as you yourself said, he knows everything). He did nothing to stop it, even though he could have at anytime. He does nothing to stop it, even though he can. Does nothing to fix Satan. Does nothing to prevent it from hurting humans. It still all lies at gods feet, ultimately, because he is the omnipotent being and nothing can happen that he does not allow to happen.

As I said, you can blame Satan all that you want, but you are still demonstrably and logically wrong. And you cannot manage make one single argument that shows otherwise, just mindless reassertions of the same illogical rhetoric over and over again. Are you ever going to actually address those points? I thought you were going to answer all of our questions here. If so then why do you run and hide whenever anyone asks anything tough?

On another note, you said that god didn't just fix Satan outright because he didn't want to admit that he made a mistake. Yet you have just admitted that god knows everything. So clearly god did not make a mistake when he made Satan and he turned evil. So if god did not make a mistake this can only lead to the logical conclusion that he made Satan with the intention of having him turn evil.

Wow, you can't even keep your own theology consistent and coherent. How were you going to answer other peoples questions again?

[jynnan tonnix]

Oooooooooooooh....so with bad god in charge, there would not be countless souls suffering an eternity of torture in hell. Gotcha.

[Lance]

for the love of God Alzeal you gotta read my posts before u posit any nonsense.

AGAIN! God did not create evil he created Satan and Satan rebelled thus evil was born and instead of God expunging evil and satan he sought Satan's redemption in order for him to Repent thus bringing back what he originally created - a perfect Satan!

[Alzael]

for the love of God Alzeal you gotta read my posts before u posit any nonsense.

AGAIN! God did not create evil he created Satan and Satan rebelled thus evil was born and instead of God expunging evil and satan he sought Satan's redemption in order for him to Repent thus bringing back what he originally created - a perfect Satan!

I read your posts. As stupid as they were. Too bad you don't read mine, you might actually get around to responding to the issues that are raised. You're still wrong. You still haven't made any valid argument, and you'll be wrong until you actually address the post and manage to say something intelligent that actually shows how the blame can be laid on Satan, as opposed to the god who created him knowing full well what he would do, etc.

And while we're at it, here's yet another flower to add to your ever-increasing fail-bonnet. No, god did not originally create a perfect Satan. If Satan had been perfect he could not have commited evil. The fact that he committed evil means that he was imperfect.

You also fail to respond to the obvious questions that were asked again of why god came up with this whole round about plan instead of just fixing the whole thing in an instant like he could do at anytime. Unless, of course, your god is functionally retarded. Which would not only explain a lot about the world, but also about your inability to even make an effective defense.

It's ok though. It isn't like I'm expecting much out of you, by this point.

[Aaron123]

Wow, you finally got around to answering my questions!  Too bad they're all such terrible answers.

@ Aaron First of all, a bad god won't have to detemination to create adam and eve because he would have killed Satan in the first place thus rendering useless the purpose of creating adam and eve.

There's nothing evil about not creating something.

You didn't answer the actual question.  The question was:

What would "bad god" do in reaction to Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge?

I did not ask about an act of creation, I asked about a reaction to something.  I still insist that you answer this one.

in a way, a bad god would be to lazy to get things right on behalf of those who got it wrong initially.

So wait, good god doesn't bother to fix his mistakes because his fragile ego couldn't take it, bad god is too lazy to fix his mistakes.  So far, I like bad god better.  Laziness isn't good, but there's something about the ego excuse that's just plain dickish.

a bad god won't ordered a man to test his faith because he doesn't give a fuck what man thinks!

Again; you fail to explain why this is bad.  There is nothing inherently bad about not giving "a fuck" about what someone thinks.  I do not give a fuck what 99% of everyone on this planet thinks about anything.  Does that makes me a bad person?  No, of course not, that's a silly idea. 

Beside which, apathy comes across as A Good Thing in this case.  There is nothing bad about not ordering someone to kill his child, even if the reason is that you don't care about that person.

bad god won't kill baby because he likes adultery.

Once again, bad god comes off as the better person.  He might have a strange hard-on for adultery, but at least he won't kill anyone over it.

and good God didn't kill baby he cut his life short,

Ah, is that what they call "killing" nowadays?   

maybe baby is in heaven with him but the point is to get David learn his mistakes.

God can't get someone to learn something without killing cutting short someone else's life.  What a pathetic excuse of a god.

anymore?

Actually, yes.  You forgot to answer one question.  "Good god" ordered the slaughter of everyone already living in the promised land to make room for his chosen ones.  What would "bad god" have done instead?

So now you need to answer that question, and give a proper answer to the Adam and Eve one.

[Lance]

@ Alzeal of course Satan is imperfect because only God is perfect but after all His grand master plan - Satan would be perfected! get it!

[albeto]

 

Again, God didn't create EVIl. Satan did!

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
- Isaiah 45:7

[Lance]

albeto my sweet lady, we've already discussed that last week. that's from teh KJV and it meant "calamity."

[Alzael]

@ Alzeal of course Satan is imperfect because only God is perfect but after all His grand master plan - Satan would be perfected! get it!

Not what you said. You said that god created him to be perfect originally. So which is it?

Also god can't be perfect, if his creations are imperfect. So if god is perfect, Satan and we humans must be perfect. Also a perfect god couldn't have made a mistake. So again we get to god intentionally creating Satan to be evil. So you basically fail in every way and every direction.

Also none of this still does anything to take down my original argument about god being responsible for evil. So you still fail. But at least you amused me a little bit. So you should be proud of that, at least.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
- Isaiah 45:7

No fair using the bible against him. He's never even read it. Besides he's going off of his own made up whack-a-doo theology anyways.

[One Above All]

albeto my sweet lady, we've already discussed that last week. that's from teh KJV and it meant "calamity."

And we already covered that (which you clearly ignored) - your translation is wrong. Either that or A&E ate from the tree of good and calamity, which doesn't make any sense. And a god that creates calamity is still evil, regardless, because intentional calamity is evil. There's no getting around that.

[albeto]

albeto my sweet lady, we've already discussed that last week. that's from teh KJV and it meant "calamity."

A day late and a dollar short.   Story of my life.

[Azdgari]

albeto my sweet lady, we've already discussed that last week. that's from teh KJV and it meant "calamity."

Others went over that and showed that you were wrong.

Honest response:  Admitting you were wrong.
Dishonest response:  The one you are likely to make.