I will not prove God exists

[velkyn]

Silly Hatter, sincerity is only true if you agree with Fiz totally and don't question why his claims fail 

Well, then you heard it here first. Whatever prayer you're sincere about is the prayer God will answer. The outward manifestations of prayer are worlds less important than the inward sincerity. Let me be clear. You should pray to god without first accepting Jesus as Savior. Faith is the result of sincere prayer, not a prerequisite.

so funny to see you repeat “sincere” over and over again if it were a mantra and it would make the mean ol’ atheists go away.  You didn’t use that word until we showed you your claims failed.  And then you desperately need some new excuse on why your god didn’t answer like you promised. Three weeks is nothing.  Fiz, I prayed for months, years, sincerely and your claims still failed.

I don't mean this to frustrate you, but it might. You really don't have to take my word for it. I just want the information available for anyone here who does want to know whether there is a god. There are, unfortunately, a lot of muddle-headed theists out there confusing the issue by adding additional requirements and claiming to have proof of the existence of God.

No, I don’t think you “just want the information available”.  You want external validation for your particular religious delusion.  However, your claims fail and you can’t seem to realize that which is just getting funnier and funnier the more you do acrobatics to excuse your nonsense.  *You* are the muddle headed theist “out there” claiming to be “right” and adding additional requirements and claiming to have proof of the existence of your god. 

[screwtape]

Fiz,

most of what you responded to was either irrelevant or did not get to the core of the points I was making. So, I will not waste my time or yours and just address what I see as the important stuff.  If there is something you were hanging on the edge of your seat for me to resond to, but I do not, please to not hesitate to ask.

As with the pursuit of any knowledge by any means, folks are allowed to disagree. Some of us think Joseph Smith saw God, others don't. Disagreement over religion doesn't imply the Holy Spirit is unreliable any more than disagreement among biologists implies that biology is invalid.

That's crap, fiz.  Biologists can break their ties through continued research and in the end the evidence will tell all and sundry who was right and who was wrong.  Not so you and the Laffertys.  You keep glossing over that very important point.  You have no way to settle the argument when two people looking at their peeping stones come to opposite conclusions.  It just ends up like a GROSS meeting[1].

Let me be clear. The Holy Ghost speaks truth which can be verified. He will predict events, help you make generalization which you later recognize to be true and lead you places that directly answer your prayers.

You say that as if it were a fact.  But it is not.  It is a claim.  If it could be verified it would be statistically distinguishable from random guessing.  Unless you have data that shows that, you are talking out your ass.

Let's talk about a concrete example. One evening before bed, I had the thought, "I wonder how Aaron is. I should call him." (Aaron is a friend of mine.) At the same time, I felt the feelings I've come to recognize as the Holy Ghost. In this case, I didn't call him and learned the next day that he had lost his job.

That's not concrete.  That is oatmeal.  I can hardly believe and adult just gave this as a concrete example.

But, you might remember that feeling. Especially if you were seeking to know whether God exists. After several such events, you might start to notice the pattern. Your confidence in recognizing that "voice" would grow. It would probably take dozens of such events to come to the conclusion that someone is guiding your life through those feelings.

You are saying the holy spirit is like your spider sense?  Or The Force?  That is just...I don't know what to... Are you putting me on?  Is this as joke? It has to be.  It is too blatantly stupid and nonsensical for someone to seriously say this. 

But, once you learn to recognize the Holy Spirit, you can absolutely count on the things he tells you. The first steps are humility, sincerity and curiosity. Could there be something greater than you? If there were, would you follow him? Are you ready to put forth some effort to find out whether god exists?

That is the most moronic[2] thing I've heard.


You keep making the same claims, yet you do not even try to validte your claims.  The two questions you have not answered are "how do you know?" and "why should I believe you?"

You completely dodged the point about the Laffertys.  You completely dodged the point about appealing to secular morality.  You may want to sack up and try some intellectual honesty. 

1.	Calvin and Hobbes Get Rid Of Slimy girlS club.  Calvin & Hobbes usually just ended up insulting and beating the hell out of each other.  Like this
2.	remember, you cannot spell moroni without moron.

[John 3 16]

fiz, let's not waste our time here.
you know Holy spirit can not be explained with our words,
you know God's mystery can not be described with our language.
I think ones that EXPERIENCED 'God's grace' will only know.
We should let them wander and ask questions like "Why should I believe?, why won't god heal amputees?, is there an evidence?,....."

Our Lord sent His disciples to towns and places in (Luke 10), and He said
"Whatever town you enter and they do not receive you, go out into the streets and say, ‘The dust of your town that clings to our feet, even that we shake off against you.’ Yet know this the kingdom of God is at hand. I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom on that day than for that town." (Luke 10:10-12)

It's time to move on to next town.

[HAL]

you know Holy spirit can not be explained with our words,
you know God's mystery can not be described with our language.
I think ones that EXPERIENCED 'God's grace' will only know.
We should let them wander and ask questions like "Why should I believe?, why won't god heal amputees?, is there an evidence?,....."

you know Mohammed's spirit can not be explained with our words,
you know Allah's mystery can not be described with our language.
I think ones that EXPERIENCED 'Allah's grace' will only know.
We should let them wander and ask questions like "Why should I believe?, why won't Allah heal amputees?, is there an evidence?,....."

[John 3 16]

Ha Ha Ha.
It is funny.
At least it sounds better than "there is no god, because I don't see him"

[12 Monkeys]

There is no God because I dont see him or ANY proof he exists. Your God is a failure.

[John 3 16]

There is no God because I dont see him or ANY proof he exists. Your God is a failure.

sounds like a personal opinion.
why should I believe you

[HAL]

At least it sounds better than "there is no god, because I don't see him"

You don't see Him?

You don't see Zeus?

What's wrong with you?

[John 3 16]

hi ! my name is WWGHA. I live in 13th century
what! the urff is sphere? no way.
I think  the urrf is flat, because there is no scientific evidence.
do you have a picture of the urrf? show me then.
why should I believe you. It's logically impossible. you put a monkey on a ball, how can he balance? plus what's under the ball?

talking about a monkey, he is my great great great grandfather.

and the town I live in, was infact, created by this huge 'Bang' long time ago, yes longer than my great great grandfather 'monkey'.
yep, huge bang it is.

Let me tell you again, the urff is FLAT!

[velkyn]

fiz, let's not waste our time here. you know Holy spirit can not be explained with our words,
you know God's mystery can not be described with our language.I think ones that EXPERIENCED 'God's grace' will only know.

Funny how your god decided to do exactly this in the bible supposedly.  Was your god too ignorant to know that it couldn’t be done?  That’s what you are arguing, my two very different Christians who are sure that each other are damned for not agreeing with the other's claims. 

We should let them wander and ask questions like "Why should I believe?, why won't god heal amputees?, is there an evidence?,....."

Sure, why don’t you since you have failed to answer those questions yourselves *after* you claimed you knew. 

It’s all so cute to see you run away just like your savior supposedly did from his own hometown.  He couldn’t do miracles there and you his supposed disciples can’t do the promised miracles either.  You can’t even answer simple questions without contradicting each other.  Your god can’t make itself coherent at all.  What kind of a god is that?

And I love it, you’ve ended up with Pascal’s Wager in your sig, one of the most pitiful arguments for your god ever.  So, John, what if you are wrong and it isn’t the afterlife you expected or the god you thought was the real one?  Can you show me that you know yours is the only one? Of course not since you haven’t done that at all and evidently can’t since I’ve given you many chances. 

Expectedly, you’ve ended up in personal insults and lies; and again, no evidence for your god or baseless claims at all. That’s sadly all you have left, all of your claims have crashed and burned.  Indeed, your behavior makes it even more amusing considering the claims you’ve made, that Christianity supposedly makes such a difference. It doesn’t and you are the example that underlines it.  You show your ignorance of evolutionary theory, of science in general and not surprisingly, you still use the same science that supports those anytime it makes you comfortable.  Lovely example of hypocrisy. 

I must give you a round of applause.   

[12 Monkeys]

There is no God because I dont see him or ANY proof he exists. Your God is a failure.

sounds like a personal opinion.
why should I believe you

Why is the Satan still free? God cares less for humans? God is too weak to finish Satan off? Other than the 2000 year old book what have you got that science has either disproven as Godly or is working on a theory that will again expose your God as a fraud?

 What reason does God have for allowing Satan to roam free? why has Jesus not returned as promised 2000 years ago? Why can't God save starving people ? He allowed Jesus to perfom the miracle of feeding thousands,wouldnt that take away the free will of the people? your God is a failure,you know it just admit it to yourself.

[HAL]

Why is the Satan still free? God cares less for humans? God is too weak to finish Satan off? Other than the 2000 year old book what have you got that science has either disproven as Godly or is working on a theory that will again expose your God as a fraud?

 What reason does God have for allowing Satan to roam free? why has Jesus not returned as promised 2000 years ago? Why can't God save starving people ? He allowed Jesus to perfom the miracle of feeding thousands,wouldnt that take away the free will of the people? your God is a failure,you know it just admit it to yourself.

Insolent human.

How dare you question the will and planning of the LORD.

His design is beyond your pitiful ability to comprehend.

[12 Monkeys]

Well .....answers please?

[John 3 16]

I can provide you all the answers, however it is all based on the bible.
so if you are going to say "is there an evidence" I am not even gonna start.

[jdawg70]

I can provide you all the answers, however it is all based on the bible.
so if you are going to say "is there an evidence" I am not even gonna start.

John, I owe you an apology.

Here's the thing - I wrote the bible.  I have a time machine and went back to 212AD and penned the whole thing.  It was intended as an interesting sociological exercise to see how a text would evolve over time through linguistic translation - I didn't mean for any of it to be taken as any kind of truth.  Incidentally the integrity of the original work has been pretty well preserved given the circumstances.

Sorry.

[albeto]

Well, then you heard it here first. Whatever prayer you're sincere about is the prayer God will answer. The outward manifestations of prayer are worlds less important than the inward sincerity. Let me be clear. You should pray to god without first accepting Jesus as Savior. Faith is the result of sincere prayer, not a prerequisite.

Fiz, I know you mean well and sincerely believe this is a helpful, hopeful message.  But hear what you're really saying.  You're saying that those people whose prayers were not answered didn't *really* pray sincerely.  You're saying people like my son, who at age 6 first wished to be dead, who prayed to a god his innocent, trusting mind sincerely believed existed, wasn't *really* being sincere.  You're saying my friend who watched his 16 year old niece die of leukemia didn't *really* pray sincerely.  Her mother and father were somehow holding back?  My LDS friend, who would identify the "right" God, whose prayers since childhood for a mother who wasn't mentally ill, wasn't sincere?  Srsly?  You're telling us that even innocent children, who have no reason NOT to believe with complete and perfect sincerity, somehow aren't *really* sincere.  I wonder if you have any idea just how very painful that can be to hear?  Can you understand the message you're giving is one of flippant arrogance?  That you believe your prayers are more honest, more genuine, more worthy of God's attention?  Do you mean to do this?  Do you have any idea just how ugly that makes your message?  Your religion?  Your beliefs?  Do you see how very demeaning and dismissive and cruel your religion is? 

It's hateful. 

And it shows your god for what it is - uncaring and incapable of genuine compassion. 

I will never "just pray" any more.   I've wasted too much of my life doing just that.  I hope my children remember nothing of their childhood religion and live with their eyes wide open, live to offer true compassion to those who suffer, and never, ever dismiss someone's pain as being somehow their fault. 

[John 3 16]

John, I owe you an apology.

Here's the thing - I wrote the bible.  I have a time machine and went back to 212AD and penned the whole thing.  It was intended as an interesting sociological exercise to see how a text would evolve over time through linguistic translation - I didn't mean for any of it to be taken as any kind of truth.  Incidentally the integrity of the original work has been pretty well preserved given the circumstances.

Sorry.

that's OK, whatever you say man.
buta.. is this some kind of anal-ogy?
or are you telling me you've missed your pill.

[jdawg70]

John, I owe you an apology.

Here's the thing - I wrote the bible.  I have a time machine and went back to 212AD and penned the whole thing.  It was intended as an interesting sociological exercise to see how a text would evolve over time through linguistic translation - I didn't mean for any of it to be taken as any kind of truth.  Incidentally the integrity of the original work has been pretty well preserved given the circumstances.

Sorry.

that's OK, whatever you say man.
buta.. is this some kind of anal-ogy?
or are you telling me you've missed your pill.

Don't believe me?  Why not?

[JeffPT]

hi ! my name is WWGHA. I live in 13th century
what! the urff is sphere? no way.
I think  the urrf is flat, because there is no scientific evidence.
do you have a picture of the urrf? show me then.
why should I believe you. It's logically impossible. you put a monkey on a ball, how can he balance? plus what's under the ball?

talking about a monkey, he is my great great great grandfather.

and the town I live in, was infact, created by this huge 'Bang' long time ago, yes longer than my great great grandfather 'monkey'.
yep, huge bang it is.

Let me tell you again, the urff is FLAT!

You should have just left when I said you didn't belong here.   With every word you bleed out more and more of your personal dignity. 

[John 3 16]

Don't believe me?  Why not?

sell your house and give it to the poor.
give up you son for an enemy, send your spirit to acknowledge your work, so I can see the truth.

then maybe I won't ask you "why won't you heal amputees"

[jdawg70]

Don't believe me?  Why not?

sell your house and give it to the poor.
give up you son for an enemy, send your spirit to acknowledge your work, so I can see the truth.

then maybe I won't ask you "why won't you heal amputees"

Wait...you want some EVIDENCE that what I said was true?

[John 3 16]

Wait...you want some EVIDENCE that what I said was true?

thanks but no thanks.

real experience don't need such thing.

you love your kids and your kids love you, do you need any evidence on that?

[jdawg70]

Wait...you want some EVIDENCE that what I said was true?

thanks but no thanks.

real experience don't need such thing.

you love your kids and your kids love you, do you need any evidence on that?

I'd have a substantially lower threshold for accepting their claim that they love me (a very low threshold indeed as they are my spawn and I'd have some sentimental attachment to them, and they've hung around me enough where I'd be able to have some past experience to base that claim).  But if, say, David Koresh told me he loved me I'd need a little more evidence than that.  Of if I told my kids that I loved them and then just abandoned them for the next 30 years, I'd expect them to at least question whether or not I actually loved them.

But let's dodge the emotional portion of this whole thing (yes, the David Koresh thing was intended to incite some manner of emotional response in my favor, just as your analogy of a child's love was intended to incite some manner of emotional response in your favor).  Once again, why don't you believe my claim that I wrote the bible?  I mean, I did.  Isn't that enough?

[Emily]

For the record I believe jdawg wrote it. I might not have seem him do it, but he publicly says it, and that's good enough for me. I'm going to worship him and create a religion after him called dawgystyle. Who wants to join my religion I created after him?

[Emily]

I can provide you all the answers, however it is all based on the bible.

You know, the bible does have a lot of answers; however answers aren't always right. I want to see the official master copy of the answer sheet. You can give us your answers but it doesn't mean your answer is right. So far the bible has been circling 'C' on multiple choice, and well, I at least learned that circling c is the last ditch effort: when in doubt, circle C. That's what I learned in school. And it helped. But C isn't always the correct answer. It could be D, or B or A. Biblically speaking the answers found in the bible could also be choice D, B, or A, yet you circled C and are happy with that choice because of how you interpreted that answer to be. You could be wrong, but when you get your test back  do you really care enough to review your wrong answers and change them?

so if you are going to say "is there an evidence" I am not even gonna start.

Then what's the point of talking to you?

[Add Homonym]

1)Have a good life, because life is short and there is nothing after that.
2)If there is something after that, I am sorry.
you lose both cases

You lose too, if you have picked the wrong interpretation of Christianity, or the wrong religion. Muslims use the same argument back at you.

I don't admire your certainty that you are right about anything you choose to utter, and most other people on the planet are wrong.

[12 Monkeys]

Don't believe me?  Why not?

sell your house and give it to the poor.
give up you son for an enemy, send your spirit to acknowledge your work, so I can see the truth.

then maybe I won't ask you "why won't you heal amputees"

BTW have you done any of the above? worked in a soup kitchen,sheltered  a homless person?

[kcrady]

fiz, let's not waste our time here.
you know Holy spirit can not be explained with our words,
you know God's mystery can not be described with our language.
I think ones that EXPERIENCED 'God's grace' will only know.
We should let them wander and ask questions like "Why should I believe?, why won't god heal amputees?, is there an evidence?,....."

Our Lord sent His disciples to towns and places in (Luke 10), and He said
"Whatever town you enter and they do not receive you, go out into the streets and say, ‘The dust of your town that clings to our feet, even that we shake off against you.’ Yet know this the kingdom of God is at hand. I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom on that day than for that town." (Luke 10:10-12)

It's time to move on to next town.

John, are you a Mormon?  I'm guessing probably not because, as I understand it, the Mormon scheme of "salvation" differs somewhat from the "believe in Jesus, be 'Born Again,' and you're done" model usually favored by the branch of evangelical Christianity that likes to use the verse John 3:16 as an icon.

Fiz is a Mormon.  So, if my guess above, that you are not a Mormon is correct, then we have, here in this thread, two distinct and mutually incompatible sets of religious claims that we are called upon to believe in without evidence.  So, if you do not agree with Fiz on Mormonism (and vice versa, wrt his opinions of evangelical Protestantism), why should we believe you, and not Fiz?  Fiz, why should we believe you, and not John? 

[Anfauglir]

1)Have a good life, because life is short and there is nothing after that.
2)If there is something after that, I am sorry.
you lose both cases

You lose too, if you have picked the wrong interpretation of Christianity, or the wrong religion. Muslims use the same argument back at you.

Not only other religions.  When we die, and the REAL god - the one who values rational thought and questioning - sends John to hell and offers me salvation, I guess I will "win".  Except, of course, that I would still refuse salvation from a monster god who sends ANYONE to eternal torture.

What I like about John's statements is it reveals so clearly the truth about his religion.  Dress it up how me might, we can see how he still comes back to the (albeit veiled) threats about what will happen if we don't choose HIS god.  Despite the constant talk of love and salvation, ultimately we always come back to the "or else you will suffer".