Author Topic: When does life deserve to be protected?  (Read 11308 times)

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Offline PingTheServer

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2008, 09:17:22 PM »
So it's really in-vetro fertilization that pro-lifers should have a problem with?

It's whatever their church and political pundits tell them the problem is.

Logically, they should be even more outraged at fertility since it destroys FAR more embryos.  They should also be outraged at every single woman that has had sex after the egg has passed its prime stage...that gets fertilized and flushed anyway.  Zero logic.  100% politics.

Offline JTW

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2008, 09:18:42 PM »
So it's really in-vetro fertilization that pro-lifers should have a problem with?
Many do, including me.

Me too, but I'm all for stem cell research. Quite a conundrum I've created for myself eh?

Oh no wait, they can use other stem cells from any other source. Dang.

Offline JTW

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2008, 09:27:47 PM »
So it's really in-vetro fertilization that pro-lifers should have a problem with?

It's whatever their church and political pundits tell them the problem is.

Perhaps, but I think those views are researched in the first place.

Quote
Logically, they should be even more outraged at fertility since it destroys FAR more embryos. 

Yeah because clearly pregnant women who miscarry mostly rejoice and jump for joy when it happens.  ::)

Quote
They should also be outraged at every single woman that has had sex after the egg has passed its prime stage...that gets fertilized and flushed anyway.  Zero logic.  100% politics.

It's still a miscarriage.


Offline PingTheServer

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2008, 09:33:10 PM »

Logically, they should be even more outraged at fertility since it destroys FAR more embryos. 

Yeah because clearly pregnant women who miscarry mostly rejoice and jump for joy when it happens.  ::)


I'm not talking about the ones put in women.  I'm talking about all the ones that they harvest that never get used.

But ya...the ones you mentioned too.  There's no funeral for them is there?  No insurance money?  If you logically take their reasons for outrage, they should also be outraged that we dont have funerals for embryos.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 09:35:38 PM by PingTheServer »

Offline JTW

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2008, 09:35:32 PM »

Logically, they should be even more outraged at fertility since it destroys FAR more embryos. 

Yeah because clearly pregnant women who miscarry mostly rejoice and jump for joy when it happens.  ::)


I'm not talking about the ones put in women.  I'm talking about all the ones that they harvest that never get used.

But ya...the ones you mentioned too.  There's no funeral for them is there?  No insurance money?

Well why should there be? They're not people according to law.

Offline PingTheServer

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2008, 09:36:53 PM »

Logically, they should be even more outraged at fertility since it destroys FAR more embryos. 

Yeah because clearly pregnant women who miscarry mostly rejoice and jump for joy when it happens.  ::)


I'm not talking about the ones put in women.  I'm talking about all the ones that they harvest that never get used.

But ya...the ones you mentioned too.  There's no funeral for them is there?  No insurance money?

Well why should there be? They're not people according to law.

So whats you're problem with my statements if you agree?

Offline Freak

Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2008, 11:50:51 PM »
@Mooby

If we conclude that the fetus is a person worthy of the right to not be aborted, does that then give us the right to force the mother to bring it to term? Better yet, how the heck would you force a woman to bring a fetus to term? You and I both know it's next to impossible to enforce, because it's her body. There are any number of ways that she could harm/kill the fetus, which are perfectly legal. Woops! I accidentally fell on my stomach! Oh and look the fetus died.
Mooby your fatal problem here is your complete lack of consideration that the fetus is a parasite on the mother, and not an independant person. It does not become an independant person until it is born. We don't force a mother to give a dieing child her left kidney, and we don't force a mother to allow a fetus to parasite off of her. Once you figure out how to beam the baby out of her and into an incubator, then you can reasonably pursue the angle that all fetus' deserve a chance at life. Until then, you are on very shaky ground indeed.
When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bike. Then I realised, the Lord doesn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

Online Azdgari

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2008, 12:55:45 AM »
There was a good post of Davedave's about this a while back, talking to JTW.  In part, it reads:

I want to know if you insist on making yourself part of the Canadian Taliban, searching through the bathroom trash cans of women for their tampons, routinely testing hormone levels in their urine, attempting rescuscitation on the tiny little fertilized eggs, sending women outside the city limits during their periods, burn women at the stake as witches if you find a fertilized egg that didn't implant.  What is it that you intend to do?  Would you like to establish a government agency to keep track of the menstrual cycles of every female in Canada?  Is there an upper limit on your bats**t craziness or is it really right back to the Dark Ages with you?

Now, I know Mooby doesn't believe in the Dark Ages, but the point stands.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline JTW

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2008, 09:37:29 AM »
That was his inane response to me having a problem not with abortion or women at all, but with promiscuity causing pregnancy - in which the obvious conclusion was abortion.

Good job guys. Bravao.

Online Azdgari

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2008, 09:41:53 AM »
Hardly an inane response.  What do you intend to do about the deaths of fertilized eggs, JTW?  You never answered his valid question.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline JTW

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2008, 09:43:18 AM »
What caused the deaths?

Online Azdgari

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2008, 09:45:35 AM »
The women did, apparently.  It's their bodoes that physically caused the deaths of the fertilized eggs.

Regardless of this, though, what are you going to do about all those deaths?
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Davedave

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2008, 09:56:01 AM »
Let's go ahead and get Mooby's response while we're here.  I'd like to know what solutions he is proposing for the matter of pregnant women who have abortions and for the women who don't want their children.

And Mooby, can you give some sort of statement on the value and importance of quality of life to you?  Abortion is such a one-dimensional topic; it tends to diminish other important issues like pre-natal care, social support for young mothers and their children, the foster care system, and education.  It's easy to be heroic and "save" the life of the fetus when all you have to do is act high and mighty and shit on the "morality" of the mother.  How much money are you prepared to put in the place of your mouth to really give that child a chance to have a decent life?

Oh, and feel free to elaborate on the matter of why you think life begins at conception and how you arrived at the conclusion that your points are so objectively better than anyone else's that yours should be enshrined into law.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 09:58:57 AM by Davedave »

Offline velkyn

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2008, 12:49:45 PM »
good post DD.

It seems to me that JTW takes refuge in the "law" when he doesn't want to give his honest opinion.  A egg that was fertillized and miscarried could have miscarried because of something the woman did.  No different than an abortion, so how would you stop those women?

And btw, JTW, it has been shown that the best stem cells are still from fetuses.  One can manipulate other cells into something similar but they are not the same. 
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Offline JTW

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2008, 01:51:31 PM »
Did the woman cause her own miscarriage purposely?

Offline Freak

Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2008, 01:53:11 PM »
Maybe she just likes to drink a lot of alcohol.
When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bike. Then I realised, the Lord doesn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

Offline JTW

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2008, 01:58:12 PM »
Should she be held accountable?

Offline Freak

Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2008, 02:12:52 PM »
Should she be held accountable?

You are the one with the ridiculous idea of forcing women to allow parasites to damage their bodies and personal lives against their will, so you tell us if you think they should also be thrown in jail for drinking.
When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bike. Then I realised, the Lord doesn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

Offline velkyn

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2008, 02:33:10 PM »
Should she be held accountable?

is she accountable for an abortion?  Per you, yes.  What if she dared to go horseback riding and the fertilized egg dislodged?  She chose to go.  Should she be forbidden?  If so, how do you proposed to stop women from doing these types of things?

EDIT:  I suspect this will degenerate into what has become a mental image of several people in a barnyard, trying to catch one chicken that is madly running to and fro. 

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Offline JTW

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2008, 04:26:04 PM »
Should she be held accountable?

You are the one with the ridiculous idea of forcing women to allow parasites to damage their bodies and personal lives against their will, so you tell us if you think they should also be thrown in jail for drinking.

When did I say that?

Offline JTW

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2008, 04:26:58 PM »
Should she be held accountable?

is she accountable for an abortion?  Per you, yes.  What if she dared to go horseback riding and the fertilized egg dislodged?  She chose to go.  Should she be forbidden?  If so, how do you proposed to stop women from doing these types of things?

EDIT:  I suspect this will degenerate into what has become a mental image of several people in a barnyard, trying to catch one chicken that is madly running to and fro. 


If she self induces an abortion purposely she should be held to that.

Online Azdgari

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2008, 05:36:19 PM »
Should she be held accountable?
You are the one with the ridiculous idea of forcing women to allow parasites to damage their bodies and personal lives against their will, so you tell us if you think they should also be thrown in jail for drinking.
When did I say that?

So, you're in favor of keeping abortion legal then?  If not, then why challenge Freak's assumption that you're pro-life?
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Davedave

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2008, 05:46:50 PM »
If she self induces an abortion purposely she should be held to that.

JTW again reveals his staggering ignorance of even the most fundamental principles of human development.

JTW, let's say that a woman is able to will a baby to abort with 25% success.  How would you suggest we proceed with this information?

Offline Goodkat

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2008, 05:56:14 PM »
Should she be held accountable?

is she accountable for an abortion?  Per you, yes.  What if she dared to go horseback riding and the fertilized egg dislodged?  She chose to go.  Should she be forbidden?  If so, how do you proposed to stop women from doing these types of things?

EDIT:  I suspect this will degenerate into what has become a mental image of several people in a barnyard, trying to catch one chicken that is madly running to and fro. 


If she self induces an abortion purposely she should be held to that.
How do you know if she did it on purpose? She could do all sorts of thing to abort the fetus, the lie about it.

Offline JTW

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2008, 06:19:11 PM »
Should she be held accountable?
You are the one with the ridiculous idea of forcing women to allow parasites to damage their bodies and personal lives against their will, so you tell us if you think they should also be thrown in jail for drinking.
When did I say that?

So, you're in favor of keeping abortion legal then?  If not, then why challenge Freak's assumption that you're pro-life?

Freak is implying that I would override the woman's choice to abort if her life was in danger. I never said such a thing.

Online Azdgari

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2008, 07:07:09 PM »
Quote
Freak is implying that I would override the woman's choice to abort if her life was in danger. I never said such a thing.

Interestingly, neither did Freak.  But hey, don't let what he actually said get in the way of arguing with him.  Straw is fun to play with.
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Offline JTW

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2008, 07:36:04 PM »
Should she be held accountable?

You are the one with the ridiculous idea of forcing women to allow parasites to damage their bodies and personal lives against their will, so you tell us if you think they should also be thrown in jail for drinking.

Re-read this please Az.

Online Azdgari

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2008, 07:55:33 PM »
Hmm, I took "personal lives" to mean "personal lives" in the social sense, rather than just "lives".  You do accept the rest of his charge, though?  Here, I'll adjust it for him:

Quote
You are the one with the ridiculous idea of forcing women to allow parasites to damage their bodies against their will, so you tell us if you think they should also be thrown in jail for drinking.

Will you answer it now?
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Offline JTW

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2008, 08:05:14 PM »
What do you want me to answer? I never implied that.