Author Topic: When does life deserve to be protected?  (Read 10397 times)

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Offline urs

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #87 on: October 23, 2008, 02:37:05 PM »
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I'm not sure if it matters when life begins. There's such a thing as putting a person out of their misery;

 :o 

It doesn't matter when life begins?  By that logic, a mother can go ahead and kill her 3 day old baby if she thinks the baby will have a "miserable" life.  In the United States, you are not allowed to murder another human being.  No Mother has the right to kill their BORN child.  Therfore, the most important quesiton IS:

"When does life Begin"



But I followed that with: what decisions will lead to the least amount of suffering? A child that has already been born will most likely have attachments, to the father, siblings, grandparents, and/or other caregivers. Killing that child will cause signifigant suffering for those people, in addition to the possible suffering of the baby. For lack of a better term (and I wish this one wasn't so coarse), "getting it over with" before those attachments can be developed very far, if at all, is honestly doing everyone a favor.

Trust me, I'm not crazy about abortion. It makes me feel a little squirmy - I think it makes most people feel that way. I certainly don't think it should be encouraged. But women who feel like they have no other option are going to choose it until we as a society provide them with better options. At this point, we have to consider it a necessary evil. Nobody likes it or promotes it. But for many, it's the best they can do. Once education and contraception become commonplace, accessible to all, and encouraged, the "need" for abortion will drop considerably.

If you want to put a stop to abortion, you don't ask "When does life begin?" You ask "How do we prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place?" Not only is the second question considerably more relevant, it also has solutions that are workable and that a majority of people can use and agree on. That's called a "win-win" scenario. Having to determine when life deserves protection then becomes a moot point, because a situation has been created where the lives that are created do not need protection, because they are wanted.

This is about getting to the root of the problem and dealing with it, not arguing over semantics and ideology. When abortion becomes obsolete, it will not matter "when life begins".

Offline Freak

Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #88 on: October 23, 2008, 02:54:41 PM »
What, exactly, is a 'unique human organism'?
Obviously you think that a freshly fertilized egg is this. So what about an egg meets this definition? The egg is almost identical to every other egg the mother has, except that the DNA combined with the sperm is different. Maybe it's the DNA that is unique? But then identical twins would not fit the criteria as being unique. Maybe it's that it is a unique object in space and time? But then so are all the other eggs, and they apparently aren't human. Maybe it's the potential of being a human... but then every single sperm has potential, so that can't be it either.
Are you sure you want to stick with this definition?
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Offline IwasWrong

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #89 on: October 23, 2008, 03:09:34 PM »
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When abortion becomes obsolete, it will not matter "when life begins".

This whole topic was started by me as a question to nonreligious people regarding stem cell research.

I agree with most of what you are saying.  But even if abortion was obsolete, the stem cell question is still highly dependant on whether or not you think stem cell research kills a human being.

Rational people would not kill a "normal" human being even if their "mother" wanted them to.

So if a fertilized egg = human being then I vote NO on Proposal 2 November 4th, 2008.

But if a fertilized egg does NOT = a human being, then I vote YES on Proposal 2.
"And this is one big problem on these forums. Proof is needed for every statement.
My proof is my faith. "  -GodsDisciple

Offline Freak

Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #90 on: October 23, 2008, 03:13:22 PM »
However, if that person was going to die anyways, then doing research on them is perfectly acceptable (if they consent). Further, organs are harvested from dead people all the time. The point here is that if these fertilized eggs are going to die anyways, why not use them for research?

When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bike. Then I realised, the Lord doesn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

Offline Goodkat

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #91 on: October 23, 2008, 03:13:40 PM »
Quote
When abortion becomes obsolete, it will not matter "when life begins".

This whole topic was started by me as a question to nonreligious people regarding stem cell research.

I agree with most of what you are saying.  But even if abortion was obsolete, the stem cell question is still highly dependant on whether or not you think stem cell research kills a human being.

Rational people would not kill a "normal" human being even if their "mother" wanted them to.

So if a fertilized egg = human being then I vote NO on Proposal 2 November 4th, 2008.

But if a fertilized egg does NOT = a human being, then I vote YES on Proposal 2.
If you ask me, as long as the Baby is attached to the mother it is part of her, and thus not an individual human being.

Offline JTW

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #92 on: October 23, 2008, 05:08:49 PM »
I'm with Mooby. Qualifying for human being status occurs at conception.

I don't think a *vegetable is any less of a human being because they're a vegetable. They're still human. They are just disabled. A zygote/fetus is the same.

*vegetable as in human vegetable (for all those who like to get smart, I think I'm going to start doing this to clarify so people can't semantically pick my post apart any longer)

Offline Azdgari

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #93 on: October 23, 2008, 05:16:33 PM »
So you believe that a human body kept biologically alive without any living brain is a person?  The law disagrees with you here, too, JTW.
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Offline Davedave

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #94 on: October 23, 2008, 05:18:06 PM »
Does a single living cell of my body separated from myself have its own soul?  Does it have my soul?  Is it human?  Should it have rights?

Offline JTW

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #95 on: October 23, 2008, 05:31:02 PM »
Az I will answer, Dave can go jump in a lake, we've been down that road before.


Did it have a functioning brain at one point?

Offline Davedave

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #96 on: October 23, 2008, 05:39:01 PM »
You don't need to pretend you could debate me, JTW.  My point stands.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #97 on: October 23, 2008, 05:42:35 PM »
Az I will answer, Dave can go jump in a lake, we've been down that road before.
As I recall, you admitted that we have no way of knowing how souls work.  But of course, you still want the rest of us to be governed by laws that are based on how souls work.

Did it have a functioning brain at one point?

Let's say 'yes'.
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Offline JTW

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #98 on: October 23, 2008, 05:46:02 PM »
Az I will answer, Dave can go jump in a lake, we've been down that road before.
As I recall, you admitted that we have no way of knowing how souls work.  But of course, you still want the rest of us to be governed by laws that are based on how souls work.

Did it have a functioning brain at one point?

Let's say 'yes'.

If yes then it had a chance to be human and possess a soul.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #99 on: October 23, 2008, 06:03:50 PM »
Did it have a functioning brain at one point?
Let's say 'yes'.
If yes then it had a chance to be human and possess a soul.[/quote]

Wonderful.  You can file that away in your baseless-soul-claim-box, then, and answer the question I actually posed, which was:

Quote
So you believe that a human body kept biologically alive without any living brain is a person?
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Offline JTW

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #100 on: October 23, 2008, 06:14:31 PM »
Does it have the potential to become a living brain again?

Offline Azdgari

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #101 on: October 23, 2008, 06:36:36 PM »
I'm not asking about the future, JTW.  I'm asking about the present.  The future does not yet exist, while the present does.  To ask about potential is to dodge the question, which was:

Quote
So you believe that a human body kept biologically alive without any living brain is a person?

To be clear, your original contention was:

Quote
I don't think a *vegetable is any less of a human being because they're a vegetable.

If you meant to add "as long as that vegetable might revive someday" then why didn't you?  By the way, even a completely brain-dead vegetable is still a "unique human organism".  If you disagree with Mooby's parameter, then please state so.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 06:39:45 PM by Azdgari »
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Offline JTW

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #102 on: October 23, 2008, 06:38:30 PM »
So the future doesn't exist for a zygote?

Offline Azdgari

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #103 on: October 23, 2008, 06:40:28 PM »
I am taking the position here that no set future exists at all.  Please respond to my post.
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Offline JTW

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #104 on: October 23, 2008, 06:42:33 PM »
If no set future exists then I can't argue for the rights of an unborn. Debate over.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #105 on: October 23, 2008, 06:49:47 PM »
Interesting.  Apparently, then, there is nothing about qualities of a zygote in the present that is worth granting rights to.
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Offline Davedave

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #106 on: October 23, 2008, 06:52:10 PM »
Interesting, because of course, it is in the present that this non-entity demands consideration.

Offline JTW

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #107 on: October 23, 2008, 06:53:54 PM »
Uh, no. If left to its own devices a non functioning brain won't become "functional".

Offline Azdgari

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #108 on: October 23, 2008, 07:10:11 PM »
If left to its own devices, a zygote will not develop into a fetus.  What's your point?
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Offline Freak

Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #109 on: October 23, 2008, 08:22:21 PM »
Mooby:
What, exactly, is a 'unique human organism'?
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Offline Sota

Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #110 on: October 23, 2008, 09:22:06 PM »
Hey all, sorry to divert your attention away from the mini-debates going on, but I have some interesting stuff.

Freak, I showed one of my friends your first post in this thread.  She's extremely pro-life.  And it annoys the crap outta me.  Her response was this:


"^_^ Abortions one of my favorite things to debate about.

For one thing, with me at least, I don't agree with the whole fertilized egg thing. It's fertilized, that means that eventually, it's going to grow and get bigger. It's going to grow and form into a human. So size doesn't matter- it's just forming, and it will look and feel more human-like. Of coarse it's small at first, but alas, people don't consider it human because of how small and how "unnoticeable it is". (I'm sorry, but if you were just starting to form, of coarse you're not going to be big and look already human and whatnot.)

Second thing, I remember talking to you about this. I knew some girls- not too much older than myself who used abortion as a way out and blamed it on "I was raped" and "I had a miscarriage!" but it was an excuse to keep fucking random guys. Not having abortions, I feel that that could be a good way to teach some girls of the consequences of that shit. Being whores, not using protections.. you know.. stuff like that. If they have sex with a million guys, gets pregnant by Lord-Knows-Who, and is suffering knowing there is no abortions and whatnot, HOPEFULLY that will teach them that acting without thinking is costly.
That, and seeing that I already said once the egg is fertilized, it's technically a growing human inside of you. If small because it's starting out. So once you have an abortion, technically, you are killing a human.

Third, the democratic system. This is one of the flaws I find in the system. Maybe the only flaw? Idk. but I don't understand how most democrats are against capitol punishment, but they are for abortions. So they're going to let serial killing child rapists live, but they'll let a little growing baby die. I don't understand that at all.

Fourth, what if you were aborted?

I hope I don't sound like a bitch, Andrew. :)
Everytime abortion is brought up, I have to give my 2 cents in. ;)"

BTW, my name is Andrew.  Sorry if I diverted anything.

Offline Red McWilliams

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #111 on: October 23, 2008, 09:33:05 PM »
The point here is that if these fertilized eggs are going to die anyways, why not use them for research?

That's what I'd like to know, too.  I asked this question back on page one, but the OP didn't address it.

The fertilized eggs are going in the trash.  They have no "potential" to become humans.  Where's the harm in using them to "potentially" save millions of already born people?
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Offline Red McWilliams

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #112 on: October 23, 2008, 09:35:02 PM »
Does it have the potential to become a living brain again?

If potentiality confers rights, you should be able to vote on Nov. 4.  After all, you're a potential American citizen.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #113 on: October 23, 2008, 09:38:28 PM »
I'll respond to her arguments, in the order she listed them.  She's clearly not thought them through very well:

#1 - "It's fertilized, that means that eventually, it's going to grow and get bigger."  As I just said to JTW above, a fertilized egg wil not necessarily grow and get bigger, forming a baby later on.  Not without the mother's body actively helping it.  In itself it's not destined to become anything significant at all.  A fertilized egg on the sidewalk will just die.  The question then becomes, why must the mother's body be forced to continue nurturing developing that egg into a baby?

#2 - She's taking the birth-as-punishment-for-promiscuity angle.  It's morally bankrupt and inconsistent, as I demonstrated to the user Freezykow from posts 582-584 of this thread.

#3 - There is no contradiction, here, since the fertilized egg is not a person, and an adult - even a terrible criminal - is.

#4 - Inconsistent again.  What she is saying here - he reasoning - is that if, for a given action, the outcome of that action would have prevented you from being born, that action is wrong.  By her reasoning, the decision of your parents not to have children would be equivalent, morally, to abortion.  Who seriously applies that reasoning in any other context?
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Offline Sota

Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #114 on: October 23, 2008, 09:41:46 PM »
The main reason she's pro-life is because she thinks the little fetuses (feti?) are little people, and have feelings.  She allows too much emotion into the equation, and not enough thought.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: When does life deserve to be protected?
« Reply #115 on: October 23, 2008, 09:49:39 PM »
Ask her how many babies are in this picture, maybe?


If she's religious, ask how many souls are present.  That should get her thinking, at least.
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