Author Topic: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?  (Read 5678 times)

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Online jaimehlers

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2011, 03:35:58 PM »
What good is a morality system built on what God presumably approves of, if the only way you can find out for sure is to die?

I think it makes more sense to have a morality system that stands on the principles of how we should treat each other.  The problem with basing it on directives from God is that it then depends totally on what a person believes God wants us to do.  Whereas, if we base it on the simplicity of things like the Golden Rule, it's almost impossible to misunderstand and very easy to actually follow through on.

Offline One Above All

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2011, 03:36:15 PM »
says who? if its you saying its not right, then what if i eat you. now no one says its not right so its ok now, right?

To quote myself on MSN: If it is your intention to cause harm, you will suffer greatly.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2011, 03:38:48 PM »
So what you are saying, is that you have no morality?  You have just stated that were it not for coercion - were it not for threats of punishment - you would not care about acting morally.  From the perspective of this atheist, that's frightening.

Are you sure that that's really why you behave morally?

sounds about right actually. i am a very logical thinker.

Being a logical thinker does not entail being personally amoral.

if there is no "force" to punish me for doing "bad" things that would otherwise make my life better, then why not do it?

Because of a subjective, personal belief in its wrongness.

Is that not what we do daily to cows? The going idea of "bad" (unless youre a PETA fan or Buddist) is that it is ok to kill and eat the flesh of cows. But if there is no "God" and honestly nothing to really distinguish you from other animals since you argue we are here from evolotion? in that respect, fish = cow = person. Eat, kill, whatever. doesnt matter. Might get hit with some animal cruety laws but otherwise thats about it right?

tell me how im wrong? why not eat human flesh since there is no god?

Because I relate to other humans (and even to some animals), I do not wish to see them killed.  I value them positively.

I find it difficult to believe that you hold no values yourself.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline jdcpe17

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2011, 03:38:53 PM »
tell me how im wrong? why not eat human flesh since there is no god?
The bible spends quite a while describing how and when you should eat human flesh:

DEU  28:53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:
 54So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave:
 55So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.
 56The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter,
 57And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.


So why don't you Christians eat human flesh?

wow thats some crazy trippy stuff... What Happens If You Don’t Obey God ... nice find. just make sure you obey god and you wont go around eatting people, like the bible says. again good find. this is my exact question. if you dont believe in god, what is holding you back from doing bad, such as eating poeple? maybe that is too "gross" for you, what about lieing? what about stealing? what about voting for soemthing bad, you didnt actually do the deed yourself? on and on.... whats holding you back??

I see it as my job to let you know that I may need psychological help.

Offline jdcpe17

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2011, 03:40:18 PM »
Society makes rules to live by.  civilizations have done this for years.  Each culture is different and so are rules of acceptance.

true. that is why some cultures do actually eat people. and it is accepted (within that culture).

but what if you dont fear society?
I see it as my job to let you know that I may need psychological help.

Offline One Above All

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2011, 03:41:52 PM »
what about lieing? what about stealing? what about voting for soemthing bad, you didnt actually do the deed yourself? on and on.... whats holding you back??

I don't lie (regardless of the consequences) or steal, and I can't vote (underage). I don't do any of these things (apart from voting) because it's not right. If you want a logical reason:
These things do not advance our species.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline jdcpe17

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2011, 03:42:06 PM »
So what you are saying, is that you have no morality?  You have just stated that were it not for coercion - were it not for threats of punishment - you would not care about acting morally.  From the perspective of this atheist, that's frightening.

Are you sure that that's really why you behave morally?

sounds about right actually. i am a very logical thinker.

Being a logical thinker does not entail being personally amoral.

if there is no "force" to punish me for doing "bad" things that would otherwise make my life better, then why not do it?

Because of a subjective, personal belief in its wrongness.

Is that not what we do daily to cows? The going idea of "bad" (unless youre a PETA fan or Buddist) is that it is ok to kill and eat the flesh of cows. But if there is no "God" and honestly nothing to really distinguish you from other animals since you argue we are here from evolotion? in that respect, fish = cow = person. Eat, kill, whatever. doesnt matter. Might get hit with some animal cruety laws but otherwise thats about it right?

tell me how im wrong? why not eat human flesh since there is no god?

Because I relate to other humans (and even to some animals), I do not wish to see them killed.  I value them positively.

I find it difficult to believe that you hold no values yourself.

my logical thinking leads me as follows:

1) assuming no god
2) i want to live as powerful, prosperous, and satisfied as possible
3) i do not fear god beceuase there is no god, and i do not fear society so i can do anything i want.
4) who do i eat? (hehe)
I see it as my job to let you know that I may need psychological help.

Offline screwtape

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2011, 03:44:21 PM »
With no God... I dont have to care if i decide to break into someones house and shoot them, sell drugs, rob banks, anything. It doesnt matter. The world is my oyster and I can do anything my little cold heart desires.
...
Whatcha got?

Are you deliberatly trying to be an asshole?

What I find absolutely grotesqe is that
  • You want to do those things
  • the only thing holding you back is godbelief
  • you would characterize us in such a bigoted manner
  • a xian can do all of the things you said and then be forgiven.  How is that justice?



but what if you dont fear society?

Then you are a sociopath and even god belief will not regulate you.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2011, 03:46:18 PM »
but what if you dont fear society?

I have two phobias, and society is not one of them. I don't give a crap about the established rules, laws or anything else[1]. If I think I am doing something good, I will do it simply because it is right, regardless of the established laws. If I want to do something for myself that doesn't harm others, I will also do it, just because I can.

If something I want to do can cause harm to others, I will not do it, unless it conflicts with something else. In that case, I will decide which is more important for me (EG: I won't lie to make someone feel better).
 1. Note: This is not the case with every atheist, this is my individual case
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline jdcpe17

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2011, 03:47:43 PM »
what about lieing? what about stealing? what about voting for soemthing bad, you didnt actually do the deed yourself? on and on.... whats holding you back??

I don't lie (regardless of the consequences) or steal, and I can't vote (underage). I don't do any of these things (apart from voting) because it's not right. If you want a logical reason:
These things do not advance our species.

how do you define what is "not right" to you?

what if you had a son that was dieing from heart disease. you had no insurance because you just got laid off, so the hospital wouldnt help him. would you go to the hospital and hold a gun to the doctor's son's head and tell him ill give you your son back whole if you give me my son with a working heart. would that be right? maybe not.

we can get into gray areas all day.



I see it as my job to let you know that I may need psychological help.

Offline Bagheera

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2011, 03:49:55 PM »
With no God, i have no worries about "karma" or the afterlife. I dont have to care if i decide to break into someones house and shoot them, sell drugs, rob banks, anything. It doesnt matter. The world is my oyster and I can do anything my little cold heart desires.

Unfortunately to this effect, I have this constant nagging voice. It tells me God is real. It tells me to remember the things ive seen, the things Ive read, the things ive done.

So i take up the pro-god stance and I employ you to convince me otherwise. I WANT you to convince me otherwise. I really do.

Whatcha got?

Listen carefully.

If there is no god, then you still have feelings. Of guilt, shame, desire, disgust, a feeling of right and wrong. You still have to make decisions about what you value, except now you cannot simply just say to yourself, "Well, God exists, so therefore those feelings I have must be the right way to behave." You have to take a stand, and part of taking that stand depends on examining why you feel that way. If you realize that god does not exist, your central feelings about what is right or wrong wont change, except in relation to god. Your emotional responses dont require believe in god to work, any more than gravity requires belief in god to work. If a theist and an atheist throw an atheist and a theist off a cliff, gravity will still do its dirty work, both the theist and the atheist will feel that gut-wrenching falling sensation and a splat, and the murdering theist and atheist, having grown up in similar societies, will feel all the feelings one has over killing another human being; shock, anguish, debilitating guilt, fear of being caught, et cetera. And in order to deal with the guilt, they may both rationalize to themselves why they shouldn't feel bad; the people they killed were scum, they had to do it, no one will miss them, et cetera.

Big difference: the atheist does not have the luxury of believing that the person they killed might very well be in paradise, so they really did them a favor. The atheist also doesn't have the luxury of believing that god gave the killing the big thumbs up, and that they'll be forgiven and spend eternity in paradise just for being really, really sorry about the murder.

Here is final thought . As a theist, you are subject to the same influences on your morality that atheists are; other people, your own feelings, your circumstances. The only difference is that after all these things are brought into play, you then either rubber-stamp it with an imaginary god's stamp of approval ("I believe this is right, so that must be god telling me that I am right") or you validate it with other people's interpretation of what an imaginary god's stamp of approval ("This book written by people says that what I feel is wrong/right, so I will do/not do it"). 

Offline One Above All

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2011, 03:51:34 PM »
how do you define what is "not right" to you?

I don't know how, I just know what's right and wrong. I am still trying to find out exactly how I think.

what if you had a son that was dieing from heart disease. you had no insurance because you just got laid off, so the hospital wouldnt help him. would you go to the hospital and hold a gun to the doctor's son's head and tell him ill give you your son back whole if you give me my son with a working heart. would that be right? maybe not.

we can get into gray areas all day.

I would never save someone's life by compromising my personal values.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline Nick

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2011, 03:52:24 PM »
Hey, if you need the concept of a Sky Daddy to keep you in check then by all means go for it.  I guess some people need that.

Problem is when you start imposing your God on others.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 03:56:29 PM by Nick »
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Azdgari

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2011, 03:56:18 PM »
my logical thinking leads me as follows:

1) assuming no god
2) i want to live as powerful, prosperous, and satisfied as possible
3) i do not fear god beceuase there is no god, and i do not fear society so i can do anything i want.
4) who do i eat? (hehe)

I didn't say that you necessarily weren't being logical.  I was just pointing out that being logical does not, in and of itself, entail the reasoning you have given.

The key is your item #2 above.  These are stated as a summary of your desires.  They are not an accurate summary of everyone's desires.  Most of us have quite a long list of desires, with some conflicting with each other and not all being of equal priority.

These desires can be thought of as "values".  Most people value personal comfort/pleasure, yes - but they also value other things.  They value the well-being of their families.  They value societal harmony.  They value the spread of their own values.  And a thousand other values that could be described.

Together, these values weave their way into something called personal morality:  A sense of what is right, and what is wrong.  It affects our behaviour, gives us the motivations upon which we can employ logic in the first place.

A simple desire for self-gratification is an inadequate source material of values from which to weave one's morality.  If one's desires are so basic and bleak, then threat of punishment may really be all that prevents abhorrent behaviour.

This is not true of me, nor is it true of pretty much everyone I've interacted with.  And I doubt this is really true of you.  Why?  Because of the fact that we're even having this discussion.  Think about it:  If you didn't personally feel that, for example, killing people for food was wrong - then you wouldn't have used it as an example of wrong behaviour.  Clearly, you do consider it to be wrong.  Otherwise, why bring it up?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 03:58:25 PM by Azdgari »
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Offline Bagheera

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2011, 03:56:48 PM »
my logical thinking leads me as follows:

1) assuming no god
2) i want to live as powerful, prosperous, and satisfied as possible
3) i do not fear god beceuase there is no god, and i do not fear society so i can do anything i want.
4) who do i eat? (hehe)

Your logical thinking is flawed.

Society is full of people who do what they want because they have no empathy. I think we call ed them psychopaths. But eventually, if you are caught, and you are likely to be caught if you live in  a society, then you will be punished. In the meantime, you live with the fear of being caught, and the guilt of knowing that you did something that your built-in empathy thinks is wrong. And when you are caught, you are either shunned, losing your freedom and  put in a place where people will likely do bad things to you while you're there, or (if it was bad bu not illegal) ostracized and hated by your peers, which for social animals like humans is a harsh form of punishment.

plus eating human flesh can be dangerous. Only as a last resort.

Offline Historicity

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2011, 03:57:06 PM »
Honestly that is what my body desires. With no God, i have no worries about "karma" or the afterlife. I dont have to care if i decide to break into someones house and shoot them, sell drugs, rob banks, anything. It doesnt matter. The world is my oyster and I can do anything my little cold heart desires.

Unfortunately to this effect, I have this constant nagging voice. It tells me God is real. It tells me to remember the things ive seen, the things Ive read, the things ive done.
There's a 97% chance you are just wising off and don't mean that.  I'll pretend for the moment that the 3% chance you're telling the truth is in effect.

That is, 3% of the population are psychopaths.  2/3 of those become sociopaths.  The others get a hold of themselves and see they are headed towards a downward spiral of mastubatory drugs and destruction.  Those psychopaths adopt an artificial code of ethics.  Often they realize that most people have an inhibition to killing and would not do it when it was logically necessary.  So a lot of them become career military.  All psychopaths realize that the average person is a helpless sheep in front of them.  Then some realize that they can become a wolf -- or a sheep dog.

Some take up a belief in an imaginary policeman looking over their shoulder.  Sorry, I can

I'm taking these thoughts from Lt. Col. Dave Grossman (ret), a former Army Ranger, in his book, On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society.

See:

On Killing by Grossman.
On Combat, The Psychology and Physiology of Deadly Conflict in War and in Peace by Grossman and Christiansen.
Warrior Mindset by Asken, Christiansen & Grossman.


Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2011, 04:10:25 PM »
...Whatcha got?

What must it feel like to those people to whom God has spoken to directly? Do they actualy hear a physical voice that emanates from outside their own bodies so that if others were near them they too could hear the voice of God? Or does God speak directly into their minds, like a metaphysical whisper? Or is it that they just see signs and presume that it is speaking metaphorically too them?

The reason I ask is, what is the difference in the personalities between the people who hear God vs. those who don't? Was God speaking to David Berkowitz the same way he spoke to Moses? Or does he use different methods for different people?

What if God's language is really just our intuition? We ALL have our intuitions...some people trust theirs and listen to it. Others, not so much...they second guess themselves. So if we doubt ourselves we doubt God. If we trust God we trust ourselves or visa versa.

So lets look at Abraham, his intuition told him that he should sacrifice his son but he second guessed himself at the last minute. How much different would the world be today if people like David Berkowitz could show as much doubt as Abraham did. 

Do you trust your intuition jd?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 04:13:46 PM by jaybwell32 »
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Offline jdcpe17

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2011, 04:11:11 PM »
Honestly that is what my body desires. With no God, i have no worries about "karma" or the afterlife. I dont have to care if i decide to break into someones house and shoot them, sell drugs, rob banks, anything. It doesnt matter. The world is my oyster and I can do anything my little cold heart desires.

Unfortunately to this effect, I have this constant nagging voice. It tells me God is real. It tells me to remember the things ive seen, the things Ive read, the things ive done.
There's a 97% chance you are just wising off and don't mean that.  I'll pretend for the moment that the 3% chance you're telling the truth is in effect.

That is, 3% of the population are psychopaths.  2/3 of those become sociopaths.  The others get a hold of themselves and see they are headed towards a downward spiral of mastubatory drugs and destruction.  Those psychopaths adopt an artificial code of ethics.  Often they realize that most people have an inhibition to killing and would not do it when it was logically necessary.  So a lot of them become career military.  All psychopaths realize that the average person is a helpless sheep in front of them.  Then some realize that they can become a wolf -- or a sheep dog.

Some take up a belief in an imaginary policeman looking over their shoulder.  Sorry, I can

I'm taking these thoughts from Lt. Col. Dave Grossman (ret), a former Army Ranger, in his book, On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society.

See:

On Killing by Grossman.
On Combat, The Psychology and Physiology of Deadly Conflict in War and in Peace by Grossman and Christiansen.
Warrior Mindset by Asken, Christiansen & Grossman.

yea i know all about how tough military is. my parents were BOTH in the marines, and that is how they met. my dad told me many stories. one where the marienes were on a firing range. one was goofing around and fell on some rocks. he broke his arm and stood up and showed everyone. my dad said at least 7 other mariens upon seeing that passed out.

i know that it is a human reflex that some have, upon seeing such a bloody sight will pass out, but it shows me no matter who you are, you can be hurt, youre not as tough as your reputation makes you out to be, and since youre not god im not scared of you.

I see it as my job to let you know that I may need psychological help.

Offline jdcpe17

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2011, 04:14:31 PM »
...Whatcha got?

What must it feel like to those people to whom God has spoken to directly? Do they actual hear a physical voice that emanated from outside their own bodies so the if others were near them they too could hear the voice of God? Or does God speak directly into their minds, like a metaphysical whisper?Or is it that they just see signs and presume that it is speaking metaphorically too them?

The reason I ask is, what is the difference in the personalities between the people who hear God vs. those who don't? Was God speaking to David Berkowitz the same way he spoke to Moses? Or does he use different methods for different people?

What if God language is really our intuition? We ALL have our intuitions...some people trust theirs and listen to it. Others, not so much...they don't trust themselves. So if we doubt ourselves we doubt God. If we trust God we trust ourselves. So lets look at Abraham, his intuition told him that he should sacrifice his son but he second guessed himself at the last minute. How much different would the world be today if people like David Berkowitz could show as much doubt as Abraham did.

i dont know. i felt a "metaphysical whisper" with no actual sound. the implantation of an external thought or command with which i had no sensory perception of and realized it as such.

that is such a climactic event where abraham doesnt kill his son. if in fact he were second guessing himself, then what he did was nothing special. the special point was that he was actually going to do it per Gods command, and then didnt per Gods command.
I see it as my job to let you know that I may need psychological help.

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2011, 04:18:40 PM »
jdcpe,

A normally functionning human being has more empathy and not the extremely fragile boundary between the potential egotistical, morally bankrupt anti-social behaviours you described in the OP, and socially acceptable behaviour.

I don't see my job as to convince you a magic sky man exists to keep you in check. I see it as my job to let you know that you may need psychological help. 

There it is.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline jdcpe17

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2011, 04:31:17 PM »
jdcpe,

A normally functionning human being has more empathy and not the extremely fragile boundary between the potential egotistical, morally bankrupt anti-social behaviours you described in the OP, and socially acceptable behaviour.

I don't see my job as to convince you a magic sky man exists to keep you in check. I see it as my job to let you know that you may need psychological help. 

There it is.

hehe
I see it as my job to let you know that I may need psychological help.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #50 on: July 08, 2011, 04:31:28 PM »
i dont know. i felt a "metaphysical whisper" with no actual sound. the implantation of an external thought or command with which i had no sensory perception of and realized it as such.

that is such a climactic event where abraham doesnt kill his son. if in fact he were second guessing himself, then what he did was nothing special. the special point was that he was actually going to do it per Gods command, and then didnt per Gods command.

Right, but then it would seem that God chooses different delivery methods for his commands.
For David Berkowitz God spoke to him through the neighbors dog. For you it was a metaphysical whisper. I thought God spoke to me through coincidences and sometimes de ja vu to let me know that I was on the right path. But I like the intuition theory because then at least we can assume that God does speak to each of us personally, it's just a matter of if we choose to listen or act on it.

i.e. if you are suddenly inspired to commit violent crimes and the thought seems to have come to you from "nowhere" then that is God speaking to you. The Son of Sam was strong enough in his faith to follows Gods commands...Why aren't you? 
I show affection for my pets by holding them against me and whispering, "I love you" repeatedly as they struggle to break free.

Offline Don_Quixote

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #51 on: July 08, 2011, 04:39:02 PM »
I don't want to believe. I want to KNOW.

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2011, 04:45:16 PM »
To be honest to myself, my arguements for God tend to be somewhat self satisfying. In effect I am using you to try to argue that to myself that there is no God. Honestly that is what my body desires. With no God, i have no worries about "karma" or the afterlife. I dont have to care if i decide to break into someones house and shoot them, sell drugs, rob banks, anything. It doesnt matter. The world is my oyster and I can do anything my little cold heart desires.

Unfortunately to this effect, I have this constant nagging voice. It tells me God is real. It tells me to remember the things ive seen, the things Ive read, the things ive done.

So i take up the pro-god stance and I employ you to convince me otherwise. I WANT you to convince me otherwise. I really do.

Whatcha got?

You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2011, 05:01:46 PM »
To be honest to myself, my arguements for God tend to be somewhat self satisfying. In effect I am using you to try to argue that to myself that there is no God. Honestly that is what my body desires. With no God, i have no worries about "karma" or the afterlife. I dont have to care if i decide to break into someones house and shoot them, sell drugs, rob banks, anything. It doesnt matter. The world is my oyster and I can do anything my little cold heart desires.

Unfortunately to this effect, I have this constant nagging voice. It tells me God is real. It tells me to remember the things ive seen, the things Ive read, the things ive done.

So i take up the pro-god stance and I employ you to convince me otherwise. I WANT you to convince me otherwise. I really do.

Whatcha got?

I am "pro-God" as well, but I fail to understand why you or anyone else feels that doings things that harm, hurt, and alienate other people would be okay if God wouldn't hold you accountablee for such actions.
As a person who is "pro-God," wouldn't it be better to be motivated by a love for our fellow man as opposed to being motivated by fear of judgment?

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #54 on: July 08, 2011, 05:07:43 PM »
wow thats some crazy trippy stuff... What Happens If You Don’t Obey God ... nice find.
You seem to have misunderstood - this is God telling His people to be cannibals in certain circumstances.

Quote
If you dont believe in god, what is holding you back from doing bad, such as eating poeple? maybe that is too "gross" for you,
There have been many cases of justified cannibalism, I cannot say that, given the circumstances, I would not do it.

There is the famous story of the Andean 'plane crash - one Christian ignored Deuteronomy and refused to eat the dead passengers - he died, the rest ate and survived. (True story)

Quote
what about lieing? what about stealing? what about voting for something bad, you didnt actually do the deed yourself? on and on.... whats holding you back??
A general sense that we all have a responsibility towards all other members of our species. We are on earth to make more humans, and we should prevent other humans from suffering wherever possible.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline JeffPT

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #55 on: July 08, 2011, 10:04:36 PM »
To be honest to myself, my arguements for God tend to be somewhat self satisfying. In effect I am using you to try to argue that to myself that there is no God. Honestly that is what my body desires. With no God, i have no worries about "karma" or the afterlife. I dont have to care if i decide to break into someones house and shoot them, sell drugs, rob banks, anything. It doesnt matter. The world is my oyster and I can do anything my little cold heart desires.

Unfortunately to this effect, I have this constant nagging voice. It tells me God is real. It tells me to remember the things ive seen, the things Ive read, the things ive done.

So i take up the pro-god stance and I employ you to convince me otherwise. I WANT you to convince me otherwise. I really do.

Whatcha got?

I'll bite.  I know there's been a lot of replies and follow up posts from you J, but I'd like to say some stuff that I wish to hear your opinion on.

The reasons that we don't do bad things are many, but for starters, its because we get little gratification from it.  It is a known fact that being kind to others simply feels better than hurting them.  It is also a known fact that most people try to avoid things that make them feel bad, is it not?  You don't see many people running around kicking brick walls with bare feet and that's because the consequences don't feel very good. We don't like killing people because it feels bad.  We don't like stealing because it feels bad.  While kicking a wall is physical pain, emotional pain is also something we, as humans, feel, and it deters us from doing things that make us feel bad.  Also, being self aware has allowed us the ability to recognize the things that make us feel bad, so we can extrapolate that to others and assume that what makes US feel bad, will also make others feel bad.  Empathy is an evolved emotion that everyone has (though to varying degrees). 

Another reason is the idea of reciprocation.  When you are bad to someone, it generally makes them want to be bad to you.  This is something we, as self-aware, sentient beings understand very well.  When you kick someone, they are bound to kick you back, and that's something we try to avoid.  If you show your fellow humans some love and respect, they generally return it in kind.

The entire argument, however, is not about whether or not God exists.  This argument that you have taken up is an argument for whether or not it's better to believe in God or to not believe in God.  That argument has nothing to do with whether or not God is real.  I have no problem with you trying to argue this, but I just want to make sure this is what you're going for.  As long as you understand this, then please also understand that some of us value the truth, regardless of the consequences; maybe you don't, I don't know.  The situation then comes down to whether or not you personally choose to live in the real world and accept the consequences of there being no God, or live in a fantasy world where God is wonderful and great and loves everybody, yet at the same time punishes the shit out of you if you cross him. 

As an atheist, I understand that at any time, I could go out and murder, rape, pillage and kill indiscriminately and in the end, I would suffer no punishment from God.  If I had no conscience, and felt no empathy, and wanted to feel emotional pain, I could do any of that.  So could anyone.  Some people actually do that but we usually put them in psychiactric wards, because it's not conducive to peaceful societies.  The only punishment you have to fear in reality is how it makes you feel, and what society decides to do with you if they catch you.  That's the truth.  We don't try to hide from it.  We accept it.  That's the grown up thing to do.

For you, however, it's a little different.  God is your eternal watchful father, always hovering over you with his naughty and nice list, because you aren't grown up enough to be trusted to do the right thing.  The scary thing is that it sounds to me like the only thing keeping you from doing some of the worst things in the world is your belief that God will punish you if you don't.  Let me ask you though.  When a 7 year old finds out that Santa isn't real for the first time, do they instantly become raving lunatics around Christmas time or do they find a way to be good kids anyway?  It's the same thing.  People don't need to believe in fictional characters that will punish them for being naughty, in order to be nice.  (BTW, I try to tell this stuff to my wife, but she just likes the surprise on my kids faces when they see all the presents that Santa managed to stuff down a 10 inch wide chimney.  I wish she'd understand that the kids would still be just as happy to see the presents if they knew we bought them, but... oh well.)     

As a point of curiosity, I would like to raise a question about the way it makes you feel to always be held back by your God's hand of justice?  If you truly wish, as you say, to rape, kill, maim, and slaughter people because you want to, then why would you choose to worship the God you worship in the first place?  Does it make you feel bad to know that the God you claim to worship values being good and nice to people, while at the same time, you value none of that?  Is it difficult to go through life knowing you will never have the satisfaction of raping, killing and destruction that you are so eager to do, simply because your "goodie-two-shoes" God is blocking you at every turn?  This is a very strange twist, I must admit.  Most theists that come here feel that their God agrees with their own moral positions, but you are certainly a different sort.  The very God you worship has the opposite of your own morality.  Don't despair though, J.  You ARE IN LUCK.  You see, the God of the Old Testament is really the one you should be looking at.  He doesn't value any of that good guy crap.  He values what you value.  He loves to kill.  Dashes babies against rocks and all that.  He's right up your alley! 

You said that the world is your oyster, and you can do anything your heart desires.  That is absolutely true (arguments for free will vs determinism should be held in check here).  If your heart desires the things you say it desires, then that makes you vastly different from the rest of us.  None of us want to do bad things to other people.  That's the simple fact of it.  We don't want to.  It doesn't feel good.  Just like barefoot brickwall kicking.  You don't do it because it doesn't feel good.  You understand feelings in every other way, don't you?  Why is this one so confusing for you? 

As a final note, if the only thing that keeps you from killing other people is your belief in God, then in my opinion you're inherently a pretty bad guy.  If you stop believing in God, you should be thrown in jail for the rest of your life as a means of preventing mass murder.  Keep believing J.  It's good for you.  God is not so good for sane people, because sane people don't have the desires to hurt and kill like you do. Belief in God for those people is completely unnecessary to living a moral life.  But for you, regardless of whether or not God is real, I would recommend believing in God because it seems you'd be psychopathic without it. 

As a person who is "pro-God," wouldn't it be better to be motivated by a love for our fellow man as opposed to being motivated by fear of judgment?

You mean... like the atheists do? 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline jdcpe17

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2011, 06:08:21 AM »
it comes down to this.

no i am not rushing out to do bad things. i can only say it has to do with me being raised a certain way so i dont desire to. however that is not a logical thing.

think computers. this is what i am getting at. logic. if the predeterming basis for all computer commands is to

1) survive - then it would choose to eat people on the andean accident
2) have religious morals per the bible - starved on the plane
3) make the world less conjested and polluted - kill itself and offer fresh meat to others

these are logical pathways. i guess i am somewhat like spock on star trek. think logical, remove emotion. emtion is not logical. you tell me i might "feel" bad if i eat someone, fine, but maybe it was a logical thing to do given that i want to survive and i dont think there is any moral reason to abstain.

graybeard, that OT reference is a graphic warning to those who do not believe in god. it is part of a long list of things that people may do who chose to ignore the bible. you are reading it wrong. the OT specifically contains a great amount on even things to not eat - "unclean" things you should not eat and any dead person is "unclean".

this isnt about if it is better to believe in god or not, my OP question was, why dont you believe and still chose to basically follow most of the bible commandments? i guess i got off track since i mentioned eating your fellow man and that hit a trigger for many of you.

it seems to me, in this world, you would have a great deal more to gain if you didnt believe, because you would have no logical reason (besides oh our little voices inside might be grumpy and we dont want to upset them do we??) to not do bad things for your personal gain.

you have all basically attached your selves to the idea that you "value the human experience". many argue this is what raises us above all other animals. but perhaps animals have feelings too, they just dont know how to speak human to tell us as such. actually there have been many studies that show this to be true.

social animals all have fights to determine the leader of the packs. these are often very violent and can lead to death. humans are no different are we? or do you just want to say we are? ive yet to hear a convincing reason, logical, that would tell me otherwise. the only thing i know of is religion. i know of no reference where an animal besides humans that give sacrificial offerings to their gods. i know of no reference where an animal has been shown to abstain from doing something that would have otherwise kept it alive due to its moral convictions. i know of MANY instances where herbervorus animals become cannibals due to food shortages.

the animals are just following a logical path for survival of the fitest. this is logical. emotion is not. give me something else.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 06:19:48 AM by jdcpe17 »
I see it as my job to let you know that I may need psychological help.

Offline One Above All

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Re: so... just because wwgha then you wont believe?
« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2011, 06:12:57 AM »
emtion is not logical.

Emotion is more logical than you think.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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