An Alternate Approach to th WWGHA Question

[Alzael]

To the Jews (God's original followers) Jesus is a FALSE prophet try again

 "....the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars"(Revelation 3:9)

We have gone over this already, 'Jews rejecting Messiah' it is to fullfill the prephecies.

"The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone" (Psalm 118:22)

besides,
"But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isaiah 53:5-7)

 "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” (Genesis 3:15)

then, who is HE?

Possibly a nutcase. Or a radical rabbi who thought it would give his views credit if he claimed divinity. Or possibly he was just a rabbi and the people who followed after him saw him as a convenient tool to attach divinity onto to further their own agendas. Or he was just some figure in a fairytales told to little Christians to make them feel special. Perhaps he was created as a figure meant to unite a group of people that was divided and facing persecution. Maybe he was an extra-dimensional being from the 7th dimension named Mxtyplixtla.

Or more than likely he never existed except in Paul's fevered delusions.

All of these are equally as possible as anything that you say.

That's exactly what satan would want people to believe.

No, actually, I can tell you what satan would want people to believe.
"If I see a miracle, I will believe" "Why won't god heal amputees?"

"If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
"If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written ‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone"(Matthew 4:3,6)

who said that?

Talk for yourself for once, just like a big boy. I'm sure you can manage it.

As for who said that. You don't actually know who said it do you. You just claim to know who said it. Unles of course you can show the evidence of who said it. So the point still stands. This could be just what Satan wants you to think.

[jdawg70]

That's exactly what satan would want people to believe.

No, actually, I can tell you what satan would want people to believe.
"If I see a miracle, I will believe" "Why won't god heal amputees?"

"If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
"If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written ‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone"(Matthew 4:3,6)

who said that?

One of the authors of a very old work of fiction?

[John 3 16]

In your own words John...in your own words.  Scripture examples are OK as long as you explain them in your own words, and in more detail.

Jetson

sorry. I will do better next time.

[Emily]

sorry. I will do better next time.

I doubt you will. You've been warned about using scripture many times.

[Alzael]

sorry. I will do better next time.

I doubt you will. You've been warned about using scripture many times.

Yes, but he has to say that he will. It helps him to justify his behaviour when he says that he's 'trying'.

[12 Monkeys]

To the Jews (God's original followers) Jesus is a FALSE prophet try again

 "....the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars"(Revelation 3:9)

We have gone over this already, 'Jews rejecting Messiah' it is to fullfill the prephecies.

"The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone" (Psalm 118:22)

besides,
"But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isaiah 53:5-7)

 "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” (Genesis 3:15)

then, who is HE?

So the Jews are all Satan's minions? if not why are there still Jews?

[Aaron123]

God is love. if there is no love, it certainly is no God's work or experience.
"This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother" (1 John 3:10)

If Ono's experience is acting against building up the church, it is satan's work.
"So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church." (1 Corinthians 14:12)

If Ono's experience contradicts God's word, it is satan's work.
Ex) there was a lady in our church, she had a vision on Jesus one night, apparently, Jesus told her the secret "Christ came not in flesh, but in spirit"
"This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God" (1 John 4:2)

Manipulating God's word against its original meaning.
God said  "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” (Genesis 2:17)
But satan said “Did God really say, you must not eat from any tree in the garden?”(Genesis 3:1)

John, by now you should know that atheists are not convinced that the bible is "the divine word of god".

Why do you still continue to use the bible as your main argument?

[John 3 16]

Or more than likely he never existed except in Paul's fevered delusions.

I was quoting verses from Genesis and Isaiah to show you how Messiah was prophesied in OT.
It was truly my mistake not to explain about those verses.
I definitely, feel it is necessary to explain each verse to avoid unnecessary confusion.
FYI Isaiah was written about 700+ years before Paul's time, and Genesis, thousands years before.

As for who said that. You don't actually know who said it do you. You just claim to know who said it.

"the devil came and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become loaves of bread."

Missed that part in RED sorry.

[jdawg70]

Or more than likely he never existed except in Paul's fevered delusions.

I was quoting verses from Genesis and Isaiah to show you how Messiah was prophesied in OT.
It was truly my mistake not to explain about those verses.
I definitely, feel it is necessary to explain each verse to avoid unnecessary confusion.
FYI Isaiah was written about 700+ years before Paul's time, and Genesis, thousands years before.

J.K. Rowling conceptualized the prophecy of Harry Potter sometime in like the 4th book or something, and lo-and-behold it came true in like the 7th book.  Does that lend credence to the factual nature of the story of Harry Potter?

I mean...I can read an old prophecy from, say, 3000 years ago and then write a story about events that fulfill that prophecy. If I were to try to convince you of the *reality* of that fulfillment, I'd expect you to want more than the story I wrote.

As for who said that. You don't actually know who said it do you. You just claim to know who said it.

"the devil came and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become loaves of bread."

Missed that part in RED sorry.

Who said what aside, do you think that these events actually transpired?  If so, why?

[Alzael]

Or more than likely he never existed except in Paul's fevered delusions.

I was quoting verses from Genesis and Isaiah to show you how Messiah was prophesied in OT.
It was truly my mistake not to explain about those verses.
I definitely, feel it is necessary to explain each verse to avoid unnecessary confusion.
FYI Isaiah was written about 700+ years before Paul's time, and Genesis, thousands years before.

Which has no bearing on whether or not he existed. Which was what was said in what you quoted from me. You asked who Jesus was. I provided some of the most likely possible answers. Since the prophecies don't prove anything, quoting them wasn't really of much use.

"the devil came and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become loaves of bread."

Missed that part in RED sorry.

Again, not really relevant. You still don't know who said it. You know who the text says said it, but that doesn't really mean anything. For all you know it was the devil saying that to make you think something that wasn't true.

You see what happens when you rely solely on faith? 

[John 3 16]

Alzael.
As you notice, I am not here to convince you to believe in God anymore.
Jetson told me to explain those verses, so I apologized and explained, you told me to answer your question, so I did it.

Talk for yourself for once, just like a big boy. I'm sure you can manage it.

I tried to be very nice and actually, explained those verses like I would do at sunday school. and you say that doesn't mean anything?
What were you expecting? were you expecting me to bring someone who lived in Israel 2000 years ago and have him testify "yep it was the devil"?
then you would probably say "I don't believe him, show me his I.D. to prove he is from Israel who lived 2000 years ago.

This is very disrespectful, I know you don't believe the bible, then why can't you just say "I don't believe it" then I didn't have to waste my precious time and explain those verses which elementary kids would already knew.

you are an atheist, you don't have to actually act like you KNOW the bible to be an atheist.
If someone here asks me about Islam Koran, I would simply say "I don't know"
when you tell someone to"talk for your self" why don't you be little more honest.

[12 Monkeys]

why don't you know the Koran,Orthodox Judaism,Hinduism,Buddhism,mormonism or any oither 'ism' don't you want to make an informed descision?

[John 3 16]

why don't you know the Koran,Orthodox Judaism,Hinduism,Buddhism,mormonism or any oither 'ism' don't you want to make an informed descision?

thanks but no thanks,  voyeurism doesn't get anybody informed.

Or does it?

[Emily]

why don't you know the Koran,Orthodox Judaism,Hinduism,Buddhism,mormonism or any oither 'ism' don't you want to make an informed descision?

There is no need to risk barking up the wrong tree..........................

I guess. 

[jdawg70]

why don't you know the Koran,Orthodox Judaism,Hinduism,Buddhism,mormonism or any oither 'ism' don't you want to make an informed descision?

thanks but no thanks,  voyeurism doesn't get anybody informed.

Or does it?

Getting information is generally the way one goes about getting informed.

[Astreja]

This is very disrespectful, I know you don't believe the bible, then why can't you just say "I don't believe it" then I didn't have to waste my precious time and explain those verses which elementary kids would already knew.

John, you're missing the point of our arguments.  We are asserting that quoting from a book is insufficient evidence for the stories in that book.  A Gospel writer concocted a story about Jesus being tempted by the devil, but that is not enough to prove that either "Jesus" or "the devil" actually existed, or that the alleged event actually happened.

If the Bible was a book of ordinary people doing ordinary things, it would be considerably more credible.  It is precisely the emphasis on the supernatural -- Talking Snake™; magic boat full of animals; virgin birth; people rising from the dead -- that makes it a highly questionable and probably mythological source.  The more an assertion deviates from Real Life As We Know It, the more carefully it has to be checked.

[Anfauglir]

" Bible verses. "
" More Bible verses. "
" And yet more Bible verses. "

" For variety....more Bible verses. "
" And....well, you get the idea. "

John, I'll ask you again.

Satan is both a trickster, and (presumably) extremely powerful and intelligent.  The Bible was physically set down by man.  The Bible contains numerous apparent contradictions, requiring particular interpretation on which no Christian can agree - an example being whether one is saved through works, or faith, or both, or grace, or perm any combination thereof.  One cannot therefore read the Bible and be SURE of what the god portrayed in it is, or wants.

So the question is.....how can you be sure that what you read in the Bible is not (partially, mostly, or entirely) the work of Satan, designed to trick and confuse the reader?  And that any apparent visitations by "Jesus" that appear to confirm the Bible are not in fact visitations of a dishuised Satan, in his continuing effort to trick you into following his created Bible and taking you further from what your god really wants?

Quoting the Bible is useless as an answer to that question, when any verse you quote could have already been twisted by Satan for his own ends.  It is just one of the reasons why using the Bible to verify the Bible is pointless and doomed to failure.

You believe the Bible - I get it.  Brought up on it, it has been instilled into you as The Truth, and you have never bothered - or been able? - to think critically about it.  Well, if it brings you happiness and causes no harm to others, fair enough.  But surely you can see that your repeated insistence on quoting verse after verse is doing nothing more than making you look foolish?

I am an atheist.  I don't believe the Bible.  Because there is nothing  - nothing - relating to the existence of the god depicted within it that has ever been backed up with evidence, no more than the Norse sagas have evidence for Thor, or the Book of the Dead has evidence for Osiris.  Each and every one of the religious texts I have examined - and there are many - makes no claim about their deaity that can be lifted above all the other claims to say that "yes...THIS one has evidence".

I don't know quite what you are still here for John - unless perhaps you hope that by continued exposure to our arguments you will find the courage to question what you have been spoon-fed your whole life?

[pianodwarf]

As you notice, I am not here to convince you to believe in God anymore.

I know you don't believe the bible, then why can't you just say "I don't believe it" then I didn't have to waste my precious time and explain those verses which elementary kids would already knew.

when you tell someone to"talk for your self" why don't you be little more honest.

John, by quoting scripture after scripture after scripture, you are preaching, or, at the very least, you are advertising your opinions.  Have you read the forum rules, especially this one?

Discussion threads are for discussion of the topic at hand, not simply advertising one's opinions. As such, forum members are expected to back up assertions they make, and not engage in stonewalling, shifting goalposts, changing the subject, or employing similar tactics to avoid addressing points raised against their arguments.

I would strongly recommend that you read that, more than once if necessary, and modify your posting habits accordingly.  The moderators have taken notice of your behavior and are starting to talk about how to handle the problem -- and yes, it is a problem.  Frankly, I'm astonished beyond belief that you haven't been sent to the Emergency Room yet.

[Add Homonym]

wouldn't you be able to differentiate between dream and reality, especially if you experience it quite often?
And information that I have is no extra ordinary than others who met the Christ in spirit.

There was a guy in the religious forum who reckoned he was demonically possessed. The demon seemed to be supplying delusions that were consistent with schizophrenia, but he wasn't convinced. I have to wonder why all these delusions seem to convince the affected of the existence of their dominant cultural bias. If you were a Hindu, you'd be convinced that some Hindu God was talking to you. I notice you dodged under my question of what you would say to anyone else who has a different delusion to you.

Right. So you are saying that Intel i5 processors naturally evolved?

No. Intel i5 processors were made with something microchips, plastic, bunch of other stuff but never were created.
For me to say when something is created means it is made with nothing.

Oh, right. So you are using the everything-I-say-is-correct technique of answering questions. By your apparent definition, nothing can create except the creator, and you of course, know all about the creator, because you have defined your delusion to be from the creator.

[Alzael]

Alzael.
As you notice, I am not here to convince you to believe in God anymore.
Jetson told me to explain those verses, so I apologized and explained, you told me to answer your question, so I did it.

And I pointed out the flaw in what you said. Are you unfamiliar with how discussion and debate works? Try responding to that instead of whining about your inability to defend your own position.

I tried to be very nice and actually, explained those verses like I would do at sunday school. and you say that doesn't mean anything?
What were you expecting? were you expecting me to bring someone who lived in Israel 2000 years ago and have him testify "yep it was the devil"?
then you would probably say "I don't believe him, show me his I.D. to prove he is from Israel who lived 2000 years ago.

You're missing the point, even though you just mentioned it yourself. You have no means to prove any of this. So there is no possible reason for anyone who is at all rational to believe them.

If you actually had someone from Isreal at that time, it would be a start.

You see, John reason and evidence are the ways in which we humans are able to differentiate between fantasy and reality. Since what you say is clearly irrational and there is no evidence to support it, it is indistinguishable from delusion.

Since the bible is the only source that talks about it, you need something else in order to prove that it's true. You need evidence separate from it. Repeating what the book says is meaningless, because it's the book that is making the claim.

This has been repeated to you over and over again by everyone here. The fact that you keep ignoring it and go right on blithely doing the same thing over and over again is exactly why I take you so lightly and treat you in such a laughing matter. Because your behaviour and your ability to grasp even simple concepts when repeated multiple times is absolutely laughable.

This is very disrespectful, I know you don't believe the bible, then why can't you just say "I don't believe it" then I didn't have to waste my precious time and explain those verses which elementary kids would already knew.

Because this a discussion forum. Really? You still don't get this? What you fail to understand is that reciting the bible is not a discussion. We know it, we've read it (most of us). I've read the bible, I've read the Koran, I've read the holy books of many other religions. I don't need to be explained what your words mean.

Have you noticed that everytime you quote the bible you get mocked or scolded for preaching? That's because the questions that are being asked is how you prove these things, and your position and understanding regarding them. If we wanted mindless bible quotes, we could reread the thing ourselves. You've been disrespectful throughout this whole thing. Both in your attitude and in how you've ignored the rules even when pointed out to you again and again. So, as I mentioned before, don't bother trying to take a holier-than-thou attitude.

you are an atheist, you don't have to actually act like you KNOW the bible to be an atheist.
If someone here asks me about Islam Koran, I would simply say "I don't know"
when you tell someone to"talk for your self" why don't you be little more honest.

I don't have to, but I do. You see I actually had the curiosity to read such things. Which is why I know how full of it they are. The questions are directed towards you and your knowledge.

When I ask, how do you know that isn't Satan telling you that. You're supposed to actually think about it. Not just regurgitate an answer from scripture, because scripture has no basis on which you can "know" anything. Knowledge requires evidence. Since you have no proof of scripture, how do you know that it isn't Satan (if anyone) speaking to you?

Before you start downvoting others you should take care that you aren'y sounding like a hypocrite. At what point was I dishonest? I answered your questions and responded to your points and gave you valid answers, which is far more than you've done for anyone else here.

So please stop whining and grow a pair. Don't downvote people unless you can actually justify it.

[caveat_imperator]

Talk for yourself for once, just like a big boy. I'm sure you can manage it.

I tried to be very nice and actually, explained those verses like I would do at sunday school.

I wonder if the kids at sunday school found the explanation as utterly unconvincing as I did.

[velkyn]

Velkyn,
another case of misinterpretation of the Bible.

Oh gee, and I’m supposed to accept that you have the only “right” version of how to interpret the bible.   It’s so funny to watch all of you Christians, all so certain that you and you alone know what your god “really” meant.  Again, I’m still waiting to see which of you can actually do the miracles that your savior promised that true disciples of his could do.  Where are they, John? Why do you fail to produce anything?  Could it be that you aren’t the OneTrueChristiantm you claim to be since God hasn’t seen fit to bestow anything on you? Or is it that your god doesn’t exist? 

It’s so funny to see you try to claim that you are teaching us anything about how to “correctly” interpret the bible and trying to claim that it’s because I told you that ignorance can be fixed by education.  Indeed it can, but you provide no education at all. No evidence of your claims, nothing.  Just like every other theist, you only provide your baseless opinions formed on presuppositions.  You evidently have no idea what education actually is.  You then try to claim that we don’t have any evidence either, which is just a rather pathetic lie considering that one can just look at the posts here.  It’s hilarious when you want to claim that facts are the same as personal opinions. I suspect that in any other part of your life, you hold to facts as we do, it’s only when facts demonstrate that your myths are nonsense that you try to claim that your personal opinion is just as valid as a fact is.  That make you quite a hypocrite, John.  But that’s not surprising at all.

I do love how you desperately try to redefine “works” as prophecies.  Funny how your bible doesn’t support this at all, but says repeatedly that works are indeed miracles. 

also nice to see that you intentionally attempt to edit my words. Let me take care of that. “Miracles were to cause faith. In Exodus, God says that he is showing off so others will know him.”  So your reply makes little sense and is yet one more example of a Christian attempting to be deceitful.  Indeed, if I were a Christian, I would wonder about your claims of following Jesus considering your actions.

then why Israelites made an idol "golden calf" and worshipped it? did they not see the red sea separate?

Seems that maybe they didn’t and it’s just a poorly written story.  Perfectly easy answer and no god needed.

Why did Jews and pharisees crucified Jesus, did they not see enough of His miracles?

Same here, perhaps they didn’t see any miracles, might that explain the events just as well? 

That is why when you say "if I see an amputee heals, I will believe" won't work

No, that’s is the excuse you’ve invented.  I believed and there were no miracles either.  You see, John, that you’ve created your own religion where *you* require faith before seeing miracles which is not what your bible shows happens.  You realize that your god doesn’t do miracles so you have to self-edit what you ask your god for and why you have to create an excuse for it why unbelievers don’t see miracles.  Any pagan who claism that their magic spells work, any two-bit charlatan who claims to be psychic uses the *exact* same excuses. You have reduced your god to some shyster who insists that they only reason they fail in their psychic spoon bending is that there is an unbeliever in the area.   

It’s funny to see you trying to claim that only Satan would ask for evidence.  Funny how Thomas did and JC gave it to him.  Was Thomas Satan?  Why would JC give evidence if he only wanted faith, John?  Again, your bible shows you to be wrong in your claims about it and your god.  It’s also highly amusing to see you try to claim that JC fulfilled prophecy and then ignore the ones that he didn’t fulfill.  It’s as if you and so many Christians don’t think we’ve ever read the bible and can see that your nonsense has no support.  That assumption is wrong but does provide many LOLs.

Wow, a U2 song.   More whiny homilies. John, you show no one anything but your vain attempts to claim that you are the OneTrueChristian and I just laugh at the bevy of Christians who all claim the same thing and all who disagree with each other on what the “Truth” is.  You confirm again and again that atheism is correct and you also confirm what my father just said this weekend when we were eating dinner out and some people in the community invited him and my mom to come back to attending church. “I’d go to church but I don’t want to be associated with Christians.” 

because God doesn't need science, He created the whole universe with His words, not with science. I think science can explain things but can never CREATE anything.

Yawn, just replace God with any other deity and we’ve got the same thing from every other theist.  So, John, please do proceed in showing that your god is the one that did anything, anything at all. 

And to finish up, I’m here to correct the lies that theists, including Christians tell.  I have no tolerance for someone who tries to spread such nonsense and who are so bad at doing it, depending on ignorance and fear to increase their herd so they get all the external validation they desperately desire.  I am here to point out just how hypocritical you are in your attempts to attack science so ineptly and your acceptance of that same science when it benefits you.