Author Topic: Do Good and Evil Exist?  (Read 3739 times)

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Offline Whateverman

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2011, 06:22:59 PM »
I can see that other people are trying to answer each question asked in the OP, so I'll do the same (as a follow-up to my last post)

Is evil absolute or is it subjective?
Neither.  It would be better to say that evil is relative...

Do absolutes exist?
Humans are fundamentally incapable of recognizing absolutes; someone can tell me "<X> is true everywhere in the universe", but I can neither confirm nor deny it.  Thus, it is impractical (and very likely inaccurate) to claim <X> is absolute.  I would rather see asserted that "<X> appears to be true everywhere we've looked"


[If it is absolute what is the absolute standard for morality and where did that standard come from?
I believer we can not know whether we have access to an absolute morality; see above.

Do you believe morals are a result of culture and society?
Morals are the product of many things, culture and society being only a few of the sources.

If they are a result of culture and society do you have the right to call other societies and cultures wrong or evil for the morals that they hold that you don't?
World wars happen because, in part, one society rejects the morality the other.  I can call 1941 Japan's morality "wrong" or "evil", but i recognize that they would disagree.  I do not know of any easy way of deciding which one of us would be correct.

Can you call things wrong or evil from history that you don't agree with if those societies and cultures agreed with them?
Good question.  I like to think that since contemporary morality is informed by history, and since technology ensures the lessons of the past will be heard by more people than would have heard it in the past, morality "evolves".  In short, society learns from its mistakes.  Yes, I think it's possible to say "<X> was wrong" because I have the luxury of seeing what resulted from <X>.

Do you believe morality is decided by the majority of people?
Consensus helps establish morality, but so does society and culture.  In other words, the majority can be wrong.
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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2011, 06:24:04 PM »
Is evil absolute or is it subjective?
Neither.  It would be better to say that evil is relative...

Doesn't subjective mean relative?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2011, 06:26:00 PM »
Jeff, you don't like my definition of evil, noooo!
So the act of a woman you love leaving you with a breaken heart isn't evil? I'd beg to differ. Something doesn't have to be morally wrong to be evil you know.

Whatever you say, dude.  &)  It just sounds stupid to say a woman leaving someone is evil. 
 
You used the term 'absolute evil', what do you mean by that?

I was referring to the definition you gave of it here...

"I believe evil is absolute and can best be understood as anything that directly brings about an unfavorable consequence that causes pain"
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2011, 06:35:25 PM »
So torturing babies isn't really wrong but you just don't like it.

Are you being intentionally irritating here?  Do you not see this is the stuff that makes all of us atheists angry sometimes?  Either you are just being obtuse, or you are intentionally being stupid. 

Torturing babies is WRONG TO ME.  That's all there is.  To take it any further is unnecessary.  Morality is an opinion.  That's it.  Nothing more.  Maybe you should search some of this site to see how many times this tactic you are using has been pranced around before.  It's boring.  It's old.  You really, really WANT to be able to say torturing babies is objectively wrong, but that doesn't mean you can.  You don't like the implications, so you keep going around citing new examples as if it's going to make us go... "oh wow, gee, that really IS objective."  But it's just NOT!

Are you going to answer my question?  Is it morally wrong to torture a baby if it will save 10 million lives?

If your right about that though torturing and killing people because they thought they were witches wasn't wrong or evil either.

Again... with... this.  Will you please read what we're saying to you?  It's like talking to a wall. 

BURNING WITCHES IS BAD TO ME BECAUSE I THINK IT'S BAD. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Whateverman

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2011, 06:37:45 PM »
Doesn't subjective mean relative?
It can, but "relative" better describes something accepted as true by consensus
For example, if "rape is bad" was merely subjective, a majority of people who felt otherwise would have no standing to disagree.  Instead, "rape is bad" is taken as true relative to the society that agrees it's bad.

If it were purely subjective, you and I could disagree with no hope of resolving it.

edit: red text added for clarification
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 06:39:45 PM by Whateverman »
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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2011, 06:41:29 PM »
Doesn't subjective mean relative?
It can, but "relative" better describes something accepted as true by consensus
For example, if "rape is bad" was merely subjective, a majority of people who felt otherwise would have no standing to disagree.  Instead, "rape is bad" is taken as true relative to the society that agrees it's bad.

If it were purely subjective, you and I could disagree with no hope of resolving it.

edit: red text added for clarification

I see.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline Co.Inkadink

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2011, 09:45:17 PM »
So torturing babies isn't really wrong but you just don't like it.

Are you being intentionally irritating here?  Do you not see this is the stuff that makes all of us atheists angry sometimes?  Either you are just being obtuse, or you are intentionally being stupid. 

Torturing babies is WRONG TO ME.  That's all there is.  To take it any further is unnecessary.  Morality is an opinion. That's it.  Nothing more.  Maybe you should search some of this site to see how many times this tactic you are using has been pranced around before.  It's boring.  It's old.  You really, really WANT to be able to say torturing babies is objectively wrong, but that doesn't mean you can.  You don't like the implications, so you keep going around citing new examples as if it's going to make us go... "oh wow, gee, that really IS objective."  But it's just NOT!
I can see why it makes you angry but no I'm not trying to make you angry. I just think your worldview doesn't explain reality very well. If there are no absolutes Everything is just an opinion. So if you think I'm being obtuse or stupid is just your opinion and it has no meaning really.
Who really cares what is WRONG TO YOU? Who are you anyway? If it's not objectively wrong then it's not WRONG period. So all of your complaining about God and injustice in the world is just words on the internet. This is what I don't understand about Atheism how they claim the moral high ground while claiming morals don't exist, and I mean Transcendent objective morals.

BTW saying things are NOT objective is an ABSOLUTE claim and would have to be objectively true because truth has to be objective and absolute to be truth.

So torturing babies isn't really wrong but you just don't like it.

Are you going to answer my question?  Is it morally wrong to torture a baby if it will save 10 million lives?

If your right about that though torturing and killing people because they thought they were witches wasn't wrong or evil either.

Again... with... this.  Will you please read what we're saying to you?  It's like talking to a wall. 

BURNING WITCHES IS BAD TO ME BECAUSE I THINK IT'S BAD.
I'll answer your question. Torturing babies is always wrong every time in every situation but to save 10 million lives you might have to do something wrong, you might have to make a choice for the greater good, the greater good would be the 10 million lives saved "if such a ridiculous scenario could ever happen". But the torture of the baby would still be wrong.

And if burning witches is bad only because YOU think it's bad all it takes is someone who thinks it's good or a majority of people and it magically becomes good according to your philosophy.

I don't think your view of reality lines up with true reality that is how the world works. If it works for you great but you have nothing to complain about when you see so called evil or injustice in the world.
Stuff just happens and it's meaningless.

If Richard Dawkins is right Good Evil are meaningless and so are things like Love, Kindness, Integrity any virtue is no virtue at all, just an opinion. No matter how much it helps a society it's just words.

Offline Bagheera

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2011, 10:03:32 PM »
My position:

Morality is subjective and relative. Morality can only be judged from the point of view of the person / society observing.

Every judgment of what is right or wrong is a verdict rendered from the point of view of that person or society. 

That means that yes, your judgment of what is right and wrong is a product of your environment, culture, and your biology. And if, as you surmised, the Nazis's had won WWII and had managed to (for example) embark on a program of re-education worldwide, there is a good chance you'd be arguing about how lucky we were to have the Jewish problem taken care of. Maybe.
So what Hitler did wasn't really evil or wrong it's just our perception of it. Once again I find that inconsistent with what I see in reality.

It is, in fact, consistent with what you see in reality. It is simply not consistent with how we (yes, I include myself in that category) would like reality to be.

Imagine this: some time in the future, someone will point to [name the belief we now hold to be good] and say, with the benefit of hindsight and their own culturally supported understanding of their time, that [name the belief we now hold to be good] was an evil that they were able to eliminate.

Count on it. There are some societal mores that we can consider to be almost constants, rooted deeply in economic, biological and evolutionary factors. Our genetic lineage is to be protected, and is more valuable than the non-related; Familiarity is safer than strangeness; harming without need is disturbing.  Call these your three near-universal moral constants, and see how intertwined they are with our ideas about what is moral.

But even though most of our morality can be derived from these reflexive attitudes, we are capable of making conscious decisions, and we also call our resistance to that impulse "morality". Perhaps it is our ability to separate our emotional responses from our rational ones that make us capable of morality.

I personally feel that if there is in fact anything I'd call a moral absolute, it is this:

Extinction of your species is bad.

It's simple, to the point, and is probably flexible enough for you to deal with moral issues that don't directly involve extinction.

Offline jetson

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2011, 10:28:09 PM »
No matter how much it helps a society it's just words.

Nihilist.

Offline Co.Inkadink

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2011, 10:31:40 PM »
No matter how much it helps a society it's just words.

Nihilist.
Yes, I suppose deep down Richard Dawkins is a Nihilist and anyone who doesn't believe in objective meaning.

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2011, 10:33:56 PM »
I can see why it makes you angry but no I'm not trying to make you angry.
You mean, you understand that you were being intellectually dishonest, and that that made him angry?  I don't know if such awareness of your own dishonest tactics reflects well or poorly on you.

I just think your worldview doesn't explain reality very well.
Since you don't explain your meaning[1] in the paragraph containing this quote - what part of reality is poorly explained by his worldview?

If there are no absolutes Everything is just an opinion. So if you think I'm being obtuse or stupid is just your opinion and it has no meaning really.
The position you address in this quote has been put forth by nobody in the thread, least of all JeffPT.  He did not claim that there are no absolutes.  He did not claim that everything is just an opinion.  His position is that a certain kind of thing is opinion-based and non-absolute.

And guess what?  The quality of someone being "stupid or obtuse" doesn't fall into the category of things he thinks are subjective.  Yet you're pretending it does.  That is dishonest.

Why are you being dishonest?  It's something you should at least attempt to answer quietly to yourself, even if you won't address it in-thread.

Who really cares what is WRONG TO YOU? Who are you anyway?

He is the person you were addressing.  If you did not care what was wrong to him, and instead cared about what was wrong to someone else, then surely you should have asked that someone else, no?  Wrong to him.  Wrong to me.  Wrong to you.  Wrong to your god, if it existed.  What else could there be?  Can you explain what "wrong" means without being "wrong to <conscious agent>"?  It's not a lightweight question, Co.  I've yet to hear a coherent definition from anyone, including those taking your position.

If it's not objectively wrong then it's not WRONG period.
Except to him, in his mind.  From his perspective, then, it is wrong.  Period.

So all of your complaining about God and injustice in the world is just words on the internet. This is what I don't understand about Atheism how they claim the moral high ground while claiming morals don't exist, and I mean Transcendent objective morals.
The objectivity (or lack thereof) of morality is utterly off-topic from the existence (or lack thereof) of god(s).  A god would necessarily be another source of subjective morality.

BTW saying things are NOT objective is an ABSOLUTE claim and would have to be objectively true because truth has to be objective and absolute to be truth.
He never claimed that no claims are absolutely true or false.  Again, you are micharacterizing his position.  This is dishonest.  Is dishonesty wrong to you, or not wrong to you?

And if burning witches is bad only because YOU think it's bad all it takes is someone who thinks it's good or a majority of people and it magically becomes good according to your philosophy.
This is also not something that JeffPT has said.  You are lying about his position.  I suppose nobody can stop you from lying on here, but can you give a good reason why anyone would want to talk to someone who consistently lies about what his or her discussion partners are saying?

Do you think that it helps foster a productive discussion when you lie, or not?

If Richard Dawkins is right Good Evil are meaningless and so are things like Love, Kindness, Integrity any virtue is no virtue at all, just an opinion. No matter how much it helps a society it's just words.
Except to people.  I guess you don't care about people, then?
 1. Perhaps you thought you did.  But you didn't.
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Offline jetson

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2011, 10:39:33 PM »
No matter how much it helps a society it's just words.

Nihilist.
Yes, I suppose deep down Richard Dawkins is a Nihilist and anyone who doesn't believe in objective meaning.

I'm just making fun of your superior intellect.  It takes a lot of effort to be obtuse, and to ignore what others are actually saying.


Offline Bagheera

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2011, 10:41:39 PM »
Who really cares what is WRONG TO YOU? Who are you anyway? If it's not objectively wrong then it's not WRONG period. So all of your complaining about God and injustice in the world is just words on the internet. This is what I don't understand about Atheism how they claim the moral high ground while claiming morals don't exist, and I mean Transcendent objective morals.

I'm going to make a claim on behalf of all atheists, though I haven't been elected their spokesmen.

Even though we don't believe that there are any transcendent, spiritual, supernatural or holy sources for morality, and in fact most will argue that morality is relative, we still believe some things to be right, wrong, evil or good, and will try to defend those things that we believe to be right or good and avoid or attack that which we feel to be evil or morally wrong.  Just because it's not absolute, doesn't mean its not worth fighting for to us.

I believe in fairness, and doing no harm to others without cause, as a beginning foundation by which we can build laws. But beyond that, we are on our own. We can define our own morality, and we do. . . even if that morality is "Here is some stuff I believe God wants, anything other than that is immoral."

Personally, I will claim the moral higher ground solely because I will not torture my neighbor for no reason, while a theist will torture a neighbor because God tells him.

I don't think your view of reality lines up with true reality that is how the world works. If it works for you great but you have nothing to complain about when you see so called evil or injustice in the world.

I can call it what I want, and if i call it evil or unjust, then it's up to you to decide if your transcendent moral authority agrees. I'm willing to bet, for the most part, they do. On the other hand, if you see so called evil and injustice in the world, you have nothing to complain about because the transcendent moral authority wants it that way.

Stuff just happens and it's meaningless.

Ultimately, yes. In the meantime, between awareness and death, it's up to you to decide what meaning it has to you.

If Richard Dawkins is right Good Evil are meaningless and so are things like Love, Kindness, Integrity any virtue is no virtue at all, just an opinion. No matter how much it helps a society it's just words.

Ultimately, yes. But to those people in your society, it means something. it has an effect on them, and as a result, also on you.

As a theist, what do you care about the people in your society? Love, kindness, integrity, any virtue at all is meaningless. No matter how much it helps or harms a society, your only guideline for morality is how closely you hew to your transcendent moral authority.

Atheists care about society, people, themselves, a lot of things So do theists. Theists, ultimately, should care only what their god wants. However, they also seem to care about society.

Doesn't that make them immoral?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 10:43:48 PM by Bagheera »

Offline Co.Inkadink

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2011, 10:45:02 PM »
I can see why it makes you angry but no I'm not trying to make you angry.
You mean, you understand that you were being intellectually dishonest, and that that made him angry?  I don't know if such awareness of your own dishonest tactics reflects well or poorly on you.
No I mean I can understand how having such a screwed up view of reality that you don't believe good and evil exist and knowing deep in your heart that they really do and having to justify that without absolutes or transcendence would make someone angry.

 

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2011, 10:46:21 PM »
So you don't understand that you were being intellectually dishonest?

Or you do understand that, and don't understand how it would make someone angry?

I would appreciate it if you didn't ignore the pertinent points I made in my post.
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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2011, 10:55:58 PM »
As an exercise in coming to understand this topic, Co.Inkadink:  How is a good god objectively distinguishable from an evil one?
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Offline Co.Inkadink

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2011, 10:58:38 PM »
If there are no absolutes Everything is just an opinion. So if you think I'm being obtuse or stupid is just your opinion and it has no meaning really.
The position you address in this quote has been put forth by nobody in the thread, least of all JeffPT.  He did not claim that there are no absolutes.  He did not claim that everything is just an opinion.  His position is that a certain kind of thing is opinion-based and non-absolute.

Yes the position I addressed that "If there are no absolutes Everything is just an opinion" has been put forth by someone in this thread. ME.
Also the other things that you say I'm lying about are my positions as well. Is it a lie to state what I think logically follows from a statement?

I think I see where this is going. Instead of addressing the issues it's going to be character assassination time. Everything I say is going to be a lie or intellectually dishonest. My favorite OBTUSE, I've seen Shawshank Redemption many times too, I wonder why Atheists use that word so much I guess it's easier to insult than argue a point.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 11:06:59 PM by Co.Inkadink »

Offline Co.Inkadink

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2011, 11:06:24 PM »
So you don't understand that you were being intellectually dishonest?

Or you do understand that, and don't understand how it would make someone angry?

I would appreciate it if you didn't ignore the pertinent points I made in my post.
No I wasn't being intellectually dishonest.

I haven't ignored anything. I have to process some of the things you and others have said, I may think about it awhile and get back to you later. There are other people on here saying the same thing as you though "Why are you ignoring my posts?"What will probably happen though is you and others will come up with 50 other questions and dissect what I've said over and over again before I have time to think about it. I'm going to take my time though. I'm about to log off for a while because I have a life.

I hope to continue this discussion and others later.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2011, 11:22:10 PM »
I can see why it makes you angry but no I'm not trying to make you angry. I just think your worldview doesn't explain reality very well. If there are no absolutes Everything is just an opinion. So if you think I'm being obtuse or stupid is just your opinion and it has no meaning really.

Really?  You really don't think it explains reality well?  Alright, let's examine some facts for a minute. 

1.  Everyone has a different take on morality.   If it came from evolved processes and is based on our culture and experiences, then what would it look like?  Wouldn't it look like people in similar cultures and who go through similar experiences would have similar world views, yet different people who experience different things would have different views.  Doesn't that EXACTLY explain how reality works? 

2.  If morality came from some form of god, wouldn't it all be exactly the same?   

3.  Isn't it true that extenuating circumstances can arise in just about ANY moral situation which would necessitate the flexibility of morality? 

4.  Which God do we follow?  Lots of religions can claim their God is the ultimate responsible party for morality.  What if it's not your God?  What would you do? 

Who really cares what is WRONG TO YOU?

I do.  We've been over this.  Like 50 times already. 
Who are you anyway?

Is this a trick question?  I'm not falling for no banana in the tailpipe. 

If it's not objectively wrong then it's not WRONG period.

After everything I've said, this is what you have to say?     

So all of your complaining about God and injustice in the world is just words on the internet. This is what I don't understand about Atheism how they claim the moral high ground while claiming morals don't exist, and I mean Transcendent objective morals.

All of my complaining about God and injustice IS just words on the internet.  It's my opinion.  Just like "torturing babies is wrong" is my opinion.  But at least I can be flexible.  Transcendent objective morals do not explain how this world works, at all.   And guess what?  The people who wrote the bible, the Koran, the Torah and all the other religious books put THEIR opinions on morality in those books too. 

Morals do exist.  They are a specific set of opinions that we use to help navigate our lives (different from opinions such as "blue is a nice color", only in that we don't use that opinion to run our lives). 
 
We can claim the moral high ground because quite often atheistic morality is a lot better than Christian morality.  I don't have to believe homosexuals are bad.  I don't have to think women are inferior.  I don't have to think that it's good to chop off a piece of a baby boy's penis at birth.  Color me happy.   

Don't believe me?  Check this website and see what humanists think vs. what Christians and Muslims have.

 http://considerhumanism.org/ads.php

BTW saying things are NOT objective is an ABSOLUTE claim and would have to be objectively true because truth has to be objective and absolute to be truth.

It's what I think Co.Inkadink.  BTW, I like your name.

I'm not trying to tell you I'm absolutely correct.  I'm trying to tell you that this is how life works, and you keep rejecting it because you don't like the implications.  Sorry. 

I'll answer your question.

YAY finally! 

Torturing babies is always wrong every time in every situation but to save 10 million lives you might have to do something wrong, you might have to make a choice for the greater good, the greater good would be the 10 million lives saved "if such a ridiculous scenario could ever happen". But the torture of the baby would still be wrong.

Not so fast there hoss.  Would God then deem it morally RIGHT to torture and kill the baby in order to save 10 million lives?  Or would God deem it morally RIGHT to let the 10 million people die?  Let me put it to you another way... If that situation arose, and you decided to torture the baby, would God punish you for it?  On the other hand, if that situation arose, and you decided NOT to torture the baby, would God punish you for it?  Are you going to get punished for it either way? 

Furthermore, if that situation arose, and you tortured the baby, would God punish you more or less if you then went on and tortured the baby for the fun of it?  The only way you could say that torturing babies is OBJECTIVELY wrong is to say that God would punish you equally for torturing the baby for fun, or for torturing the baby to save 10 million lives.  Otherwise it's NOT objective.  His law would have to be considered subjective as extenuating circumstances would call for changes to the punishment. 

To me, torturing the baby for fun, versus torturing the baby to save 10 million lives is not the same level of wrong.  I think I speak for a shit load of people when I say that.  But for it to be objectively wrong, the punishment would have to be the same. 

And if burning witches is bad only because YOU think it's bad all it takes is someone who thinks it's good or a majority of people and it magically becomes good according to your philosophy.

You just described EXACTLY what happened to people accused of witchcraft for hundreds of years.  Even though there were probably many people who (like me) thought witchcraft was foolishness, it DID  become "good" for multitudes of people because their CULTURE AND EXPERIENCES (including their RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCES) told them it was good.  You said before that my stance didn't fit with reality.  Yes it does.  You know it does.  You just don't like it one bit.   Sorry. :) 

I don't think your view of reality lines up with true reality that is how the world works.

Then tell me how.  Because all you have done is assert this and complain about the consequences of it.  You've said crap like "If it's not objectively wrong, then it's not wrong period!" as if that is some sort of evidence.  That's not evidence, it's just your belief.  And it fails to take into account the notion that what is wrong to me, is wrong to me.  I'm sorry, but I haven't seen a single word defending the idea that my view isn't based on reality.  Can you tell me where it logically falls apart for you?  Seriously, can you point to any flaws in it?  Not reasons why you don't like it, but how it doesn't fit with what we see human beings doing every day?  Show me an instance of how my view fails to explain how things actually work here on planet earth.   

People form opinions on moral issues.  When a group of them get together and have widespread agreement about some of them, then they make laws.  This is how things work.  You don't need to presuppose a Deity to understand that this is how things work.  Take, for example, speeding.  Is speeding OBJECTIVELY wrong?  Is God up there with a radar gun?  When people go really fast, they get hurt more often.  At some point, people (each as individuals first, but then there is widespread agreement) got together and decided  that it is wrong to go really fast because it puts peoples lives in danger.  Now, some people may have disagreed, and then voiced said disagreement, but the majority of people believed speeding was wrong, so they enacted a law against speeding. 

How does this fail to describe reality?  Does there have to be an absolute moral law giver to understand how this works in reality?  No, there doesn't.     

If it works for you great but you have nothing to complain about when you see so called evil or injustice in the world.

How dare you say that? When I see day in and day out "theistic morality" causing people to use say condoms are worse than AIDS, and to condemn homosexuals, and to deny women's rights, and to spread lies about evolution, and to kill abortion doctors, and ram planes into buildings, and call for jihad's against other people's way of life... I could go on for days.  You have no idea how bad religion is to this world do you?  Not a freaking clue. Most of the wars around the world are based in some part on conflicts between groups that all think they each have the better invisible sky man, and a LOT of those have to do with believing that their morality was better than the other guys.  But you don't get that do you.  You're so caught up in thinking that God is real and he wants this and that, that you keep yourself blind to the fact that theistic morality is quite possibly the worst thing that ever happened to civilization. 

Your objective stance just means you think you're morality is the same as some supernatural dictator, and that means you get to claim that it's better than everyone elses.  But what you don't realize is that just makes you a dick to the rest of us.  I know my morality is my opinion.  I don't try to say mine is better.  Not only do you try to say yours is better, you try to say yours is the only one that's right!  Do you disagree with any of your God's moral views?  No? What a shocker!  Neither does a Muslim or a Hindu or any other practicer of religion in the world.  All of you think your morality comes from God so that gives you some sort of rights over everyone else.  I'm sorry, you should have lived 400 years ago, because there are a lot of people in modern times that aren't going to let you bring us back into that shit hole of a time period where religion controlled everything.  Your line of thinking is what spawned the dark ages.  "God is right and we have to do what God says, but interestingly enough, God wants exactly what I want," so saith the priest.  No thanks.  It took a long time to come out of that, and we aren't going to be pushed around by the bull shit anymore.       
 
If Richard Dawkins is right Good Evil are meaningless and so are things like Love, Kindness, Integrity any virtue is no virtue at all, just an opinion. No matter how much it helps a society it's just words.

Label it how you will.  Love, kindness, integrity and virtue are meaningful to me because evolution, culture and experiences taught me that they are worth valuing.  It's the same thing for you, even though you won't admit it.  I don't need a supernatural source to point to to say "I think blue is a nice color" or to say "I think torturing babies is wrong".  It's the same thing.  Opinions.  Blue isn't an objectively better color, is it?  Do you think God needs to weigh in on what color is objectively best?  If there is a God, and you asked him what color was the best, and he said blue, would that make blue the only color that anyone should ever choose as the best color?  Would it then be wrong to say green is the best color?

Can you form the opinion that blue is a nice color without God backing you up on it?   

But look at your argument.  You aren't arguing for truth over false here.  You are basically saying you don't like the consequences.  Since when do the consequences of the truth give a shit about what you think?  Your entire line of thought here is just wishful thinking.  You WANT there to be a place or a being to point to and say "see, look, you're doing it wrong", but that doesn't mean it's there. 

Yes the position I addressed that "If there are no absolutes Everything is just an opinion" has been put forth by someone in this thread. ME.

I think it was Truth OT who said that the closest we can get to absolutes are mathematical.  I think that's probably true. 
 
My favorite OBTUSE, I've seen Shawshank Redemption may times too, I wonder why Atheists use that word so much I guess it's easier to insult than argue a point.

ob·tuse
? ?
–adjective
1. not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.

I asked you if you were being obtuse (not quick to pick up on what I was saying.. over and over and over again) or just being intentionally stupid.  When someone says something over and over again, and the other person doesn't pick up on it, is that not a good word to use?  You gave a moral scenario, asked us what we thought about it, I basically responded that I think X was wrong because I think it's wrong and then you went on to another example and we did it again, and again.  I was just calling you out on it. It honestly felt like you were just dicking around.  It seems to be such an easy concept.   
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline jetson

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2011, 11:23:06 PM »
We're not going to log off for awhile because we don't have lives.  After all, we're "Atheists".

Fucking arrogance, it never ends...

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2011, 11:40:36 PM »
This thread makes me feel sad, therefore it isn't real.

You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2011, 11:52:58 PM »
InkaDink lets go back to WW2,Why if Germany,Italy,Japan and any of the axis lost the war,why did they get to keep their borders? England and America had NO problem taking over Canada and USA. Slaughtering men women and children,no different than the Germans against the Jews. Yet the Germans and all other axis got to keep their territories.

  You see Evil is ALL about perspective. When the British and Americans were taking over the countries of USA and Canada,they were ruthless and savage. They were NO different than the Nazis killing the Jews,the perspective of why they were doing it was not the same.  They were colonizing and domesticating the heathens,the result was the same. 80% of the Indigenous population gone in less than a few generations.

 How do you see Nazis as evil and heathen killers as different? the result was the same but the perception of what they were doing was not.

lets make it simple God loving men killing heathen indians acceptable and GOOD,God loving men killing Jews bad and EVIL,same thing just the perspective of the how and why are changed.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 12:02:29 AM by 12 Monkeys »
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2011, 11:57:21 PM »
God created everything,hence he created evil,right?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #52 on: July 07, 2011, 12:10:27 AM »
C'mon shrinkydink

 God and his followers always find a way to justify the EVIL they do,they claim it is for the GOOD of said God. How do you justify the EVIl God and his followers have commited?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline thunderridge

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #53 on: July 07, 2011, 12:26:45 AM »
Co.inkadink
Quote
If the majority of people decide torturing little babies is good it becomes good?


I have seen Ray Comfort with this argument.  Obviously a majority of people would never see this as good.  Why do you feel you need an imaginary god for your moral convictions? 

Offline Co.Inkadink

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2011, 12:50:02 AM »
    Torturing babies is always wrong every time in every situation but to save 10 million lives you might have to do something wrong, you might have to make a choice for the greater good, the greater good would be the 10 million lives saved "if such a ridiculous scenario could ever happen". But the torture of the baby would still be wrong.


Quote
Not so fast there hoss.  Would God then deem it morally RIGHT to torture and kill the baby in order to save 10 million lives?  Or would God deem it morally RIGHT to let the 10 million people die?  Let me put it to you another way... If that situation arose, and you decided to torture the baby, would God punish you for it?  On the other hand, if that situation arose, and you decided NOT to torture the baby, would God punish you for it?  Are you going to get punished for it either way?
Torturing babies for any reason is wrong at all times to all people. It's absolutely wrong. If the stupid situation straw man argument ever happened that to save 10 million people I'd have to torture a baby God wouldn't punish me, because Jesus Christ has already taken my punishment, but to be honest I don't think I'd be able to torture a baby even with 10 million lives on the line, because I have 3 kids and the second I saw the baby in pain I'd have to stop. I don't think God would ever allow a situation where this would have to happen because he knows I couldn't bear it.

Quote
Furthermore, if that situation arose, and you tortured the baby, would God punish you more or less if you then went on and tortured the baby for the fun of it?  The only way you could say that torturing babies is OBJECTIVELY wrong is to say that God would punish you equally for torturing the baby for fun, or for torturing the baby to save 10 million lives.  Otherwise it's NOT objective.  His law would have to be considered subjective as extenuating circumstances would call for changes to the punishment.
God already punished Christ for my sin.
Quote
To me, torturing the baby for fun, versus torturing the baby to save 10 million lives is not the same level of wrong.  I think I speak for a @#%^ load of people when I say that.  But for it to be objectively wrong, the punishment would have to be the same.
In that we agree the punishment for sin is the same and if something is wrong it's wrong. There are degrees and motives which God considers on some things such as Killing vs Murder and there are motives of greater good vs lesser good and examples of this in the bible but the consequences here on earth are sometimes the same.

Offline Co.Inkadink

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2011, 12:54:41 AM »
Co.inkadink
Quote
If the majority of people decide torturing little babies is good it becomes good?


I have seen Ray Comfort with this argument.  Obviously a majority of people would never see this as good.  Why do you feel you need an imaginary god for your moral convictions?
Why? because torturing little babies is absolutely wrong? Of course the majority of people would never agree to that. My morals are inborn, the law of God is written on my heart, as it is in yours. 

Offline Co.Inkadink

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #56 on: July 07, 2011, 12:57:02 AM »
We're not going to log off for awhile because we don't have lives.  After all, we're "Atheists".

#$%^ arrogance, it never ends...
Wow! Holy Persecution complex!

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Re: Do Good and Evil Exist?
« Reply #57 on: July 07, 2011, 01:18:00 AM »
If GOD gave all these moral laws then why didn't GOD give us laws about cars? Why wasn't speeding made illegal till after my grandfather damned near killed several people driving like a bat out of hell?
Why didn't GOD regulate the securities and exchange commission to get rid of hedge fund managers ahead of time?
Why didn't GOD deal with net neutrality issues?
GOD seems to have flown the coup and ran off to some distant universe because you god lovers fucked this world up to much he got sick of dealing with your utter bullshit reasoning or lack of..
Morality is NOT absolute and never was or war would always be illegal; and we would never engage in it being killing is strictly prohibited in the 10 commandments. It never did read thou shall not kill except when you think someone else slighted your dickheadedness king..

Morals are always and have always been a work in progress constantly changing to suit our needs or desires. Sometimes they change so fast from year to year people lose track of them.
I tortured my kids horribly when I would coax them into the basement then run upstairs to shut off the light just to hear them scream.. I tortured them as babies when we played little piggies and i yanked their little toes off going wee wee wee.. I tortured them even worse by tickling them till they occasionally peed on themselves..
SOME people might think I was a HORRIBLE father, but my kids now grown think I was a great dad and you know why? Even though I was a drunkard and drug addict they were the ONLY kids on the block who even had a dad who gave a fuck if they lived or died..
I was the ONLY dad I knew at the time who bothered putting 8 or 9 junk bicycles together so I could take the kids in the neighborhood bike riding along the river then stop at MDonalds to feed them all along the way AND carried tire patch kits and a first aid kit for them all if they got hurt.. Yes, I was a HORRIBLE dad and I cussed a lot and got drunk in front of my kids and even let them fight to be the ONE who got to bring me my beer. I slept late on weekends and they sometimes got locked out of the house when I wouldn't wake up and I let them play on dumpsters with a sandwich in their hands.. (I actually had childrens services called on me for the last two by the neighborhood childless goody one shoe.)
Now, should kids have their hands placed on hot stoves to teach them lessons or be beaten for lying? NO.. I KNOW parents who did and do those exact things.. I had a neighbor who stuck lit matches in his sons eye.. my brother and I beat the living shit out of the turd..
Evil and good are learned and shared experiences. They're not shit handed down out of the sky from some fucking fairy..
Get your head out of your ass. God didn't want it there. Or DID he?
Imagine gaining favor with "Darwin's"...kind of like praying, huh?

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