Author Topic: Can you name Jesus' mother?  (Read 4742 times)

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Offline Graybeard

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Can you name Jesus' mother?
« on: July 03, 2011, 03:43:17 PM »
OK, here's your question: You have 20 seconds to answer. No looking things up on the internet or in the Bible!

What was the name of Jesus' mother?

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Hands up anyone who said, "Mary".

If you did, explain this:

John:19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

At best there were 3 people there,
(i) his mother
(ii) his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and
(iii) Mary Magdalene

Q: Would His mother have a sister called Mary if His mother were called Mary?
A: No.

So 'Mary' would seem to be the wrong answer.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Nick

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2011, 04:11:24 PM »
Not really.  On Bob Newhart there were 3 brothers.  One was named Larry and his brother was also Larry. 

I think George Foruman also named several of his kids George.
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Offline mram

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2011, 04:25:35 PM »
Answer: Mommy or as you Brits would say, Mummy!  ;D
Imagine gaining favor with "Darwin's"...kind of like praying, huh?

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Offline plethora

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2011, 03:24:27 AM »
In a work of fiction anything goes ... so why can't Mary have a sister named Mary just to confuse the fuck out of the reader?  :P
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Offline changeling

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2011, 06:21:29 AM »
So there were three women at the cross, Mary, Mary and Mary.
What an imagination these authors had.
The level of dumb they have to sell, is only made remotely possible by the level of flocking their sheep are willing to do in the name of rewards for no thought. quote: Kin Hell

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2011, 04:29:24 AM »
Mary, Mungo, and Midge.

If you are writing a work of fiction, you DON'T give character the same (or similar) names unless the intention is deliberately to confuse the reader.  If you are setting down the facts, sometimes there WILL be confusion caused by reality.  Maybe Mary DID have a sister called Mary....stranger things than that have happened.

However, there could be 4 people there anyways:
(1) his mother, and (2) his mother’s sister, (3) Mary the wife of Cleophas, and (4) Mary Magdalene

As in "there was me and my brother, Sally, and Tracy".  Not the best grammar, but quite possible.  I would mean 3 Mary's out of 4 people, but again, quite possible.  They didn't have many names back then.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline plethora

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2011, 04:40:41 AM »
^^^ If god put dinosaur fossils in the ground that appear to be older than 6000 years (i.e. before creation) just to confuse us and test our faith ... why not have 3 characters with the same name in the same part of the story?  &)
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Online One Above All

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2011, 04:45:47 AM »
^^^ If god put dinosaur fossils in the ground that appear to be older than 6000 years (i.e. before creation) just to confuse us and test our faith ... why not have 3 characters with the same name in the same part of the story?  &)

Exactly. We all know even god likes pranks.
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Offline Ivellios

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2011, 07:05:52 AM »
Myriam, Yosef and Yahoshua.

When I was a Christian, I found a verse stating one of the requirements of salvation[1] is speaking the name of the LORD. So God also hates mutes[2]. Next I did some searching[3] because I really wanted to go to Heaven.

So I found that in Hebrew, among other things, there is no 'J' to begin with. I always found it funny how 'Ichythus' was supposed to mean 'Jesus Christ is Lord.' Hey, guys, that's an I, not a J! 'Jesus' came from Greek, with the God of the Greeks in his name, Zeus, Iesous. So if he ever existed what would his name have been?

So I found the 'real' names of his mother, adoptive father and his own and a little nic name he may have had: Yeshua. Still unable to heal the sick and stuff, I came to the realization, that maybe just maybe, it was all a fraud, a lie.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2011, 08:16:33 AM »
^^^ indeed, where is the little fellow supposedly named Emmanuel in the NT? 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2011, 08:22:01 AM »
^^^ indeed, where is the little fellow supposedly named Emmanuel in the NT?

I've occasionally wondered about that.  I'm sure the apologists have responses, but I haven't bothered to do any searches so far because I'm sure that whatever they do say, it's probably completely inadequate.
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Offline Jontom10

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2011, 05:48:49 PM »
Yeah George Foreman had four kids. 3 Boys and a girl. George, George, George and Georgette

Maybe he got hit in the head or something.
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Offline Ivellios

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2011, 03:28:03 PM »
^^^ indeed, where is the little fellow supposedly named Emmanuel in the NT?

I've occasionally wondered about that.  I'm sure the apologists have responses, but I haven't bothered to do any searches so far because I'm sure that whatever they do say, it's probably completely inadequate.

There isn't. They want to pretend the Prophecy in Isiah 7[1] has something to do with Jesus, because it has 'virgin' and child in it. They'll even go so far as saying it's a "Double Prophecy" but.. I thought the whole point was that Jesus was the Only not born with a human father? Sounds like YHWH is taking lessons from Zeus. :P
 1. answered in Isiah 8.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2011, 08:42:31 AM »
this would be a good one for Kardula. 
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Offline Historicity

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2011, 09:24:32 AM »
The "proof" that some experts claim that the Illiad was not the work of one man is that Homer has a character crippled in a Trojan attack by having his collar bone broken with a heaved rock.  Then at the funeral games for Patroclus (3 to 4 weeks later) he gets second place in an archery competition.

The counter is simply that occasionally a fiction author loses track of a character.

As for the Marys, one could have been named after the other left home.  Given that girls were married off at the age of 15 the other Mary could be much younger.

Anyway it wasn't the Mary who was selected as a temple virgin.

Say, there's a Bible question for you:  How was Mary (who would become the mother of Jesus) chosen as a temple virgin?

And given that she was a temple version, how did she become engaged to old Joseph?
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« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 09:35:28 AM by Historicity »

Offline Historicity

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2011, 09:49:37 AM »
Quote
THE BOOK OF MARY
CHAPTER IV.
 AND when three years were expired, and the time of her weaning complete, they brought the Virgin to the temple of the Lord with offerings.  And there were about the temple, according to the fifteen Psalms of degrees, fifteen stairs to ascend.  For the temple being built in a mountain, the altar of burnt-offering, which was without, could not be come near but by stairs;  The parents of the blessed Virgin and infant Mary put her upon one of these stairs;  But while they were putting off their clothes, in which they hadtravelled, and according to custom putting on some that were more neat and clean,  In the mean time the Virgin of the Lord in such a manner went up all the stairs one after another, without the help of any to lead her or lift her, that any one would have judged from hence, that she was of perfect age.

The answer is actually 2 part.  I've left out the visitation by the angel who told Anna and Joachim to dedicate her, but the 2nd part is that the toddler Mary just eagerly walked up into the temple.

Quote
THE BOOK OF MARY
CHAPTER VI.
 AMONG the rest there was a man named Joseph of the house and family of David, and aperson very far advanced in years, who kept back his rod, when every one besides presented his.  So that when nothing appeared agreeable to the heavenly voice, the high-priest judged it proper to consult God again.  Who answered that he to whom the Virgin was to be betrothed was the only person of those who were brought together, who had not brought his rod.
 Joseph therefore was betrayed.
  For, when he did bring his rod, and a dove coming from Heaven pitched upon the top of it, every one plainly saw, that the Virgin was to be betrothed to him.

So the Holy Spirit dove made an early appearance before Jesus was born and played matchmaker to his parents.

What?????  YOUR Bible doesn't have the Book of Mary?

It was a very popular book among early Christians until the Church rejected it.  The fact that there is no temple hewn into a mountain in Israel should not have bothered them.  There are also no high hills, much less cliffs near the site of the supposed Nazareth from which to execute Jesus as a false prophet.

Does anyone reject Shakespeare over quibbles such as when he gave a seacoast for Czechoslovakia or had a character sail between 2 inland Italian cities?


Offline kardula

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2011, 06:44:23 PM »
Kevin Furgeson aka Kimbo Slice has 6 kids, 2 of his sons are named kevin with the third named kevlar...also one of the daughter's name is kevina. parents do odd stuff when naming their kids.

As mentioned before, George Foreman has 5 sons all of which are named George.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 06:48:32 PM by kardula »

Offline jedweber

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2011, 12:23:21 PM »
However, there could be 4 people there anyways:
(1) his mother, and (2) his mother’s sister, (3) Mary the wife of Cleophas, and (4) Mary Magdalene

That's how some explain it. Others say that this Mary was actually the sister-in-law or cousin of Jesus' mom. But the Gospel of Philip supports the notion that there were just three people there, including two sisters named Mary:

Quote

"There were three who always walked with the Lord: Mary, his mother, and her sister, and Magdalene, the one who was called his companion. His sister and his mother and his companion were each a Mary."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_of_Clopas

Of course, Philip seems to contradict himself in the same verse, describing Mary 2 first as Mary 1's sister, then as Jesus' sister, which would open a whole different can of worms...

Meanwhile, who the hell is this "Cleophas" (or ClopasWiki)? The Catholic Encyclopedia suggests that he may be the same person as Alphaeus, the father of James the apostle. But Luke tells us that a "Cleopas" was one of the disciples who saw Jesus on the Road to Emmaus (24:18).

Maybe there were a lot of people with similar names running around in Jesus' circle, but I think it's more likely these writers couldn't keep their characters straight. As they passed on garbled accounts, they took references to the same people and turned them into new ones, multiplying the cast of characters into a confusing mess, and giving us a Virgin Mary who hangs out with her own sister Mary!

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2011, 12:23:16 PM »
From Strong's Greek and Hebrtew Dictionaries:

Meanwhile, who the hell is this "Cleophas" (or ClopasWiki)? The Catholic Encyclopedia suggests that he may be the same person as Alphaeus, the father of James the apostle. But Luke tells us that a "Cleopas" was one of the disciples who saw Jesus on the Road to Emmaus (24:18).

G2810 Cleopas, Kleopas, kleh-op'-as, Probably contracted from ??????????? Kleopatros (compounded from G2811 and G3962); Cleopas, a Christian: - Cleopas.

(G2811 kleos, kleh'-os, From a shorter form of G2564; renown (as if being called): - glory.

(G3962 pate?r, pat-ayr', Apparently a primary word; a “father” (literally or figuratively, near or more remote): - father, parent.)


G2832 Cleophas, Klo?pas, klo-pas', Of Chaldee origin (corresponding to G256); Clopas, an Israelite: - Clopas.

G256 Alphaeus
Alphaios, al-fah'-yos, Of Hebrew origin (compare [H2501]); Alpheus, an Israelite: - Alpheus.

H2501, cheleph, kheh'-lef, The same as H2500; change; Cheleph, a place in Palestine: - Heleph.

Cleopas, Cleophas and Alphaeus must all be different characters.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline jedweber

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2011, 12:44:54 PM »
Cleopas, Cleophas and Alphaeus must all be different characters.

But all it would take is one author changing as little as one letter, and *poof* - we have a new character, who then makes it into future accounts...

By the time anybody noticed the confusion, say, by having multiple gospels in front of them to read side-by-side, it would be far too late to sort out these fleeting references to obscure figures...

Offline GodisRealDuh

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2012, 03:53:13 AM »
So what if there were 3 Mary's? If there were 3, then there were 3! :P

Offline ungod

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2012, 04:16:33 AM »
So what if there were 3 Mary's? If there were 3, then there were 3! :P

How could a guy who has existed FOREVER, outside o f space/time) have a MOTHER? Why would he even need a mother? DUH! Could some THEOLOGUE explain to us how a god who has ALWAYS existed, retroactively creates his own mother? DUH! DOH! ROTFLMAO
 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2012, 09:43:40 AM »
Does anyone reject Shakespeare over quibbles such as when he gave a seacoast for Czechoslovakia or had a character sail between 2 inland Italian cities?

But we know that Shakespeare's works were fiction, nobody claims otherwise.
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2012, 09:47:16 AM »
So what if there were 3 Mary's? If there were 3, then there were 3! :P

How could a guy who has existed FOREVER, outside o f space/time) have a MOTHER? Why would he even need a mother? DUH! Could some THEOLOGUE explain to us how a god who has ALWAYS existed, retroactively creates his own mother? DUH! DOH! ROTFLMAO
 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Jesus and God are one, but not one. Like steam and ice are water but not water.
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Offline jetson

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2012, 10:01:15 AM »
Yeah, the idea that the most powerful entity created all, is outside of all, knows all, and loves all, would need to manifest itself in the form of a human being on the planet earth, only to be brutally killed by those it created, in order to prove that we are all sinners, and to forgive the rest of us for all eternity, provided we believe he is real and worship him....

Jesus Christ on a stick...I can't keep going.  The stupid hurts too much.

Offline TruthTalker

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2012, 02:47:42 AM »
Jesus' Mother's name was Mary. From the way it was written there were apparently 4 people there not 3, although I cannot rule out the possibility of Mary's sister having the same name, as people do name their children the same names however bizarre that is.  There have even been whole families with the same first name.

The four people listed were:
1. Jesus' mother, Mary.
2. Mary's sister.
3. Mary the wife of Cleophas.
4. Mary Magdalene.

Offline plethora

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2012, 05:37:11 AM »
^^ Welcome.

Yeah, I can see how this can be interpreted as 4 people where Mary's sister is simply not named...

... but then, what can be expected from a literary work of fiction that a group of barbaric middle eastern men wrote millennia ago?
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Offline Historicity

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2012, 08:30:22 AM »
However, there could be 4 people there anyways:
(1) his mother, and (2) his mother’s sister, (3) Mary the wife of Cleophas, and (4) Mary Magdalene

Right.  Punctuation, including spaces between words, did not exist then.  It was an invention of Aristophanes of Byzantium, born 257 CE.  He became chief of the Library of Alexandria in 307 CE.

BECAUSETHEROMANSHADNOSPACESBETWEENWORDSTHEYHADTOREADAMESSAGEALOUDANDHEARTHESOUNDO
FTHEREOWNVOICESPEAKINGTHATISALSOWHYJULIUSCAESARWASNOTABLEASONEOFTHEFEWWHOCOULDREADS
ILENTLYASWEDONOWADAYSAIDEDBYPUNCTUATION

Offline jedweber

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Re: Can you name Jesus' mother?
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2012, 12:20:18 PM »
This other Mary, who may or may not be Jesus' aunt, has her own wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_of_Clopas

And she's one of "the Three Marys':  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Marys

Reading these, we learn that church fathers and bible scholars were just as confused as we are over who all these women are!

Reading there, we learn that Salome was also known as Mary, and Mark's gospel says a "Mary, mother of James" was there, rather than "Mary of Clopas." So some Christians think this is the same person. And that this Clopas may be the same person as "Cleophas" who meets the risen Jesus on the road to Emmaus. (Also some think he might be Joseph's brother, making Mary into Mary's sister-in-law!)

So there were either a lot of Marys in this gospel crowd, and you couldn't turn around without tripping over one, OR there's lots of character multiplication going on here (the same people were referred to by different names, and later taken to be different people.)  It would be like reading various accounts of Arthurian legends, and deciding that Morgana, Morgaine, and Morgan le Fay were three different people...