Author Topic: A question  (Read 18822 times)

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Offline Micah643

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Re: A question
« Reply #203 on: October 30, 2008, 05:42:04 PM »
I never said that sin affects ocean phenomena.  I have said that sin affected oceans. 

Offline Azdgari

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Re: A question
« Reply #204 on: October 30, 2008, 05:46:17 PM »
So it doesn't anymore?  And fyi, things that happen to the ocean are "ocean phenomena".  The tsunami was an ocean phenomenon.  Stop dodging.
I always say what I mean. But sometimes I'm a sarcastic prick whose tone can't be properly communicated via text.

Offline Micah643

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Re: A question
« Reply #205 on: October 30, 2008, 05:58:16 PM »
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So it doesn't anymore?  And fyi, things that happen to the ocean are "ocean phenomena".  The tsunami was an ocean phenomenon.  Stop dodging.
I understand "ocean phenomena."  What I am saying is that original sin is what caused turmoil in the world.  I am not saying that turmoil comes about now because you or I sin.  The world is in chaos, and that is why stuff happens.  I am not dodging.

Peace - Micah

Offline L6

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Re: A question
« Reply #206 on: October 30, 2008, 06:26:08 PM »
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Your smug a priori moral superiority is repulsive.
I am sorry you are repulsed by something you failed to even ask me about.
Your smug a priori moral superiority is repulsive.
God's existence is contingent upon the illusion that morality is dictated by religious authority.

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: A question
« Reply #207 on: October 30, 2008, 07:09:04 PM »
What caused the tsunami? What causes plate tectonics? .... on and on until we get "because magic man in the sky did it."

No matter the amount of flowery rationalization, and eloquent elaboration, it always devolves to the four year old's sunday school lesson, completely insulated from critical inquiry, and utterly ridiculous.


 

You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline TboneDano

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Re: A question
« Reply #208 on: October 30, 2008, 09:54:56 PM »

The point I made in my rebuttal to you, however, still stands...that if anyone is going to attempt to refute and disprove Christ, and the Church's teaching on prayer, you need to take it in its totality, and the simplistic arguments strewn around this website do no such thing.

Agree to disagree then.  The church's teachings on prayer are different than the bible's teachings on prayer because the bible's teachings are rediculous.  The current church teachings on prayer are nowhere in the bible.  They have to be extrapolated from twisting the verses I provided.

Here you are just patently wrong.  The Church's teaching on prayer is a direct reflection of Christ's own promises, His own prayers, and His answer to His followers question as to how to pray. 

But this debate is devolving into silliness.  The fact remains:  when Christians see imbecilic videos that purport to prove to them why their belief in God is superstitious by comparing Christ's words on prayer to lucky horseshoes, they scratch their heads and move on to something with some more intellectual traction.    That video is one of the most banal arguments I've ever seen against Christianity and atheists should be embarrassed when they employ such intellectual absurdities to defend their claim that there is no God.

I think some atheists are baffled that Christians would still believe in God when confronted by a video like this.  It seems every video that is linked from the authors of this website begin with the arrogant statement that if you are a Christian, "prepare to have your mind changed."  Really?  From a YouTube clip that doesn't have anything to do with Christian teaching on prayer?  It's just plain silly.

Offline Airyaman

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Re: A question
« Reply #209 on: October 31, 2008, 06:12:46 AM »
Azdgari:
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Who do you think caused the tsunami, according to your theology?

Man doubted the word of God and went against how He said creation should operate.  Man's sin in doing this caused the corruption of all creation.  Tsunamis occur because man sinned.

Do you think Katrina was sent in judgment of New Orleans?
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Offline Airyaman

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Re: A question
« Reply #210 on: October 31, 2008, 06:16:01 AM »
The Bible teaches that the world was once in harmony, but sin sent it into turmoil.
 

Chapter and verse?
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Offline Airyaman

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Re: A question
« Reply #211 on: October 31, 2008, 06:19:19 AM »
I think some atheists are baffled that Christians would still believe in God when confronted by a video like this.

Not really. We realize that religious brainwashing will take more than one video to remove. The video is simply meant to make you stop and think about why you believe the way you do.
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Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: A question
« Reply #212 on: October 31, 2008, 06:50:51 AM »
I really don't get how badly steeped in magical thinking one has to be in order to believe that someone eating the wrong fruit can somehow magically cause every tsunami, volcano, earthquake and other natural disaster in existence. And cause some kind of ancestral curse to fall upon all humanity. I'm sorry, but as far as I am concerned, the only word to describe that kind of thinking is unbelievably brain-dead.

And Tbone, as for your continued argumentation ad nauseam, I don't think there's any further use in prolonging it. You have made your point, you've been told why people disagree with you, we're clearly at an impasse, and this is just going around in circles. Simply repeating your assertions over and over again isn't going to convince anyone of them.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 06:53:24 AM by Deus ex Machina »

Offline Shakaib

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Re: A question
« Reply #213 on: October 31, 2008, 07:57:46 AM »
The Bible teaches that the world was once in harmony, but sin sent it into turmoil.
 

Chapter and verse?

Well, it sounds like it's in Genesis somewhere. You know, when they talk about Adam and Eve sinning.

Offline velkyn

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Re: A question
« Reply #214 on: October 31, 2008, 11:07:29 AM »
L6:
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If you were truly sorry for homeless children in third world countries, you'd be doing more than praying about it. You'd be doing something measurable. Your smug a priori moral superiority is repulsive.
Well, I don't have a way to get to a third world country presently, but I do feed the homeless that live around me.  I also give money to my church, and they go on various missions throughout the world during the year.  My Sunday School teacher goes to Peru each summer with the Church to set up medical treatment facilities, which is where most of our budget money (AKA my tithe) goes.

For being a full-time student, I would say I am making the most of my actions and my limited money.  I see measurable results with both my time and my money.  I am sorry you are repulsed by something you failed to even ask me about.

Peace - Micah

oh, the churches going on "missions".  They just have to send themselves somewhere to natter on about things people already know about so they can claim to be "sacrificing" something for their god.  My former church just had to go on a mission.  To Australia.  You know, Australia that has been colonized for hundreds of years and knows Christianity already?  But no, they just had to go.  Just like idiots who go to other Christian countries, to convert Catholics for their team.  If you would give to an organization that doesn't have to support fancy buildings for their God and oh, uses the money for actually helping, I might think you were really doing something.   

I have always found it rather silly that Christians go "set up medical treatment facilities" when supposedly just their touch should heal people. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline Micah643

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Re: A question
« Reply #215 on: October 31, 2008, 11:17:15 AM »
oh, the churches going on "missions".  They just have to send themselves somewhere to natter on about things people already know about so they can claim to be "sacrificing" something for their god.  My former church just had to go on a mission.  To Australia.  You know, Australia that has been colonized for hundreds of years and knows Christianity already?  But no, they just had to go.  Just like idiots who go to other Christian countries, to convert Catholics for their team.  If you would give to an organization that doesn't have to support fancy buildings for their God and oh, uses the money for actually helping, I might think you were really doing something.
Well, thanks to missions there aren't many place that don't know the Gospel.  Though, there is still much work to be done in places that have already heard the message of Christ.  Maybe that is why some countries are starting to send missionaries to America!! 
The church building is vital for a community of believers to gather and worship collectively.  The money used to support the buildings is helping. It gives a place for fellowship, but also many vital ministries that take place in the church

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I have always found it rather silly that Christians go "set up medical treatment facilities" when supposedly just their touch should heal people.
I would say that that is their touch healing people, in one way.

Peace - Micah

Offline velkyn

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Re: A question
« Reply #216 on: October 31, 2008, 12:37:21 PM »
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oh, the churches going on "missions".  They just have to send themselves somewhere to natter on about things people already know about so they can claim to be "sacrificing" something for their god.  My former church just had to go on a mission.  To Australia.  You know, Australia that has been colonized for hundreds of years and knows Christianity already?  But no, they just had to go.  Just like idiots who go to other Christian countries, to convert Catholics for their team.  If you would give to an organization that doesn't have to support fancy buildings for their God and oh, uses the money for actually helping, I might think you were really doing something.
Quote
Well, thanks to missions there aren't many place that don't know the Gospel.  Though, there is still much work to be done in places that have already heard the message of Christ.  Maybe that is why some countries are starting to send missionaries to America!! 
The church building is vital for a community of believers to gather and worship collectively.  The money used to support the buildings is helping. It gives a place for fellowship, but also many vital ministries that take place in the church
What "work" has to be done by "missions", Micah, that couldn't be done by groups not proseltyzing?  Why do people have to be taught "what" and "how" to believe if your God is so self-evident?  Why do believers have to "gather" and "worship collectively"?  Why not in a house like the Amish often do?  Why are Christians so desperate to get people on their own team?  It seems the best evidence that you are sure the other "Christians" are wrong.  I would very much like you to show me how they are wrong.
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I have always found it rather silly that Christians go "set up medical treatment facilities" when supposedly just their touch should heal people.
Quote
I would say that that is their touch healing people, in one way.
No, Micah, healing illness and injury like your bible claims.  Not what you make up.  Where are the Christians who can:
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12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
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15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

Are there no real Christians in existence? 
« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 03:36:31 PM by velkyn »
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline L6

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Re: A question
« Reply #217 on: October 31, 2008, 02:47:59 PM »
Well, thanks to missions there aren't many place that don't know the Gospel. 
And your true motives are revealed. Who cares about providing food and shelter when there's "good news" to spread?
God's existence is contingent upon the illusion that morality is dictated by religious authority.

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: A question
« Reply #218 on: October 31, 2008, 03:37:08 PM »
I really don't get how badly steeped in magical thinking one has to be in order to believe that someone eating the wrong fruit can somehow magically cause every tsunami, volcano, earthquake and other natural disaster in existence. And cause some kind of ancestral curse to fall upon all humanity. I'm sorry, but as far as I am concerned, the only word to describe that kind of thinking is unbelievably brain-dead.


I know. The study of natural phenomena reveals mechanisms consistent with what one would expect from a planet that is the product of stellar evolution*. The molten nickel/iron core, continental plate behaviour, oceanographic phenomena...etc. But, the word from the halls of christian academia, stunningly, asserts that the observed phenomena has, as it's root cause, the same force that's invovled when young Tommy touches his noodle when thinking of the new cheerleader.

*Ironically, the same process yields a bipedal primate capable of such delusion.

Unreal.

« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 08:34:08 PM by Ambassador Pony »
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline L6

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Re: A question
« Reply #219 on: October 31, 2008, 06:25:12 PM »
The fact remains:  when Christians see imbecilic videos that purport to prove to them why their belief in God is superstitious by comparing Christ's words on prayer to lucky horseshoes, they scratch their heads and move on to something with some more intellectual traction. 
TBone, I agree with this, and as an atheist who came from a moderate Christian background, this was indeed my reaction when I first watched that video as an atheist.

However, that does not negate cases like the following:
http://www.cbn.com/700club/guests/bios/cindy_jacobs102008.aspx

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we need to P.U.S.H. (pray until something happens) to avert financial judgment.

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“We are going to intercede at the site of the statue of the bull on Wall Street to ask God to begin a shift from the bull and bear markets to what we feel will be the 'Lion’s Market,' or God’s control over the economic systems,”

How are these people not treating prayer as a lucky horseshoe? Regardless of what the bible says or what moderate Christians say, there are plenty of people like this, and what we don't see are the moderate Christians trying to tell them they're wrong.
God's existence is contingent upon the illusion that morality is dictated by religious authority.