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Offline PostalGirl

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Interesting [#2564]
« on: June 12, 2011, 10:41:55 PM »
In your site,you pose very interesting facts on how we should beleive in the inexistence of God...My names are [Name].am a Catholic from Kenya.and am not writin to u so that u change ur stand in wat u bliv...u can use my post to add to ur facts too.u ask for a miracle, u fail to realize that u are the miracle...life is a miracle...ur nerves,cells,air,water,all the laws of nature are miracles...and no,God wont move skyscrappers so that you will beleive Him.u beleive in Him by faith...u wont get a miracle if u wont beleive 1st.tho ur already livin amidst miracles...faith comes when its actually impossible to beleive...i once experienced a miracle on myself...even today it is impossible to beleive wat happened but it did and now i have a testimony...one day my friend,you will come to ur maker...not only did u shun Him,but ur preachin to others to do the same...better u don believe then and leave it alone...now here's my theory to u..if i told u u had won a million dollars,would u rather u came to claim the prize and then find it were a lie after all or would u rather not went and it were really true that u had actually won...i promise u somethin greater than a million dollars,life.and it isnt costin u anythin to beleive it.but the cost of not beleivin it will be great...but like it is written in Deut 19,choose life.its not God we favor by comin to Him,its ourselves we do. 
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Online Aaron123

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Re: Interesting [#2564]
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2011, 11:02:38 PM »
Gaah.  I know there's an argument somewhere in this, but I can't make sense of this shit.
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Offline Jezebel

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Re: Interesting [#2564]
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2011, 11:02:55 PM »
Quote from: PostalGirl on June 12, 2011, 10:41:55 PM
and am not writin to u so that u change ur stand in wat u bliv..

Do people even think about what they're writing? What do these people think they're gaining by making this token statement-- "I'm not preaching" or "I'm not here to tell you you're wrong" and then go on to do exactly that? Do they think we all read it and sigh with relief-- "Oh finally," we say, "someone to tell us about god who ISN'T going to make us feel even MORE guilty about being atheists... All my life I've just been waiting for that one person who can talk to me person to person without all that horrible preaching and now that person is here and I can start believing... Boy, if they're so tolerant of us and aren't telling us to change maybe there really IS something to all this religion stuff.... " --is that what they really think is going to happen? Really?
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Offline LadyLucy

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Re: Interesting [#2564]
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2011, 11:44:45 PM »
I guess the fact that this guy is even trying to make his case, or let alone using a computer [no offense] which he is not very good at using, is even more of a "miracle".

The way we were all born is not a miracle. It is not difficult to understand how we are all born. Unless you want to make it difficult to make it more mystical, of course. To each their own, although, to be quite honest, I'd rather you be more logical about "everything" being a "miracle".
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Offline wright

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Re: Interesting [#2564]
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2011, 11:58:01 PM »
Quote from: PostalGirl on June 12, 2011, 10:41:55 PM
...u wont get a miracle if u wont beleive 1st.

Really. Have you read the bible? John 20: 25-29. The disciple Thomas refuses to believe that Jesus has risen and the other disciples have seen him. Jesus then appears and lets Thomas touch his wounds: only then does the latter believe.

I've been a regular on this forum for more than a year now, and it still amazes me that so many Christian posters are so ignorant of what their holy book actually says.
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Offline grant

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Re: Interesting [#2564]
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2011, 01:40:25 AM »
Quote from: PostalGirl on June 12, 2011, 10:41:55 PM
..now here's my theory to u..if i told u u had won a million dollars,would u rather u came to claim the prize and then find it were a lie after all or would u rather not went and it were really true that u had actually won..

Hey you said you were from Kenya, not Nigeria!
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Offline Nick

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Re: Interesting [#2564]
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2011, 06:20:37 AM »
Seems to me Africa is a good example of the nonexistence of God.  All you need to do is look at the pic that is posted here sometimes of the African kid about to be eaten by the vulture.  Would a just and loving God allow that?
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Offline plethora

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Re: Interesting [#2564]
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2011, 06:55:42 AM »
Quote from: PostalGirl on June 12, 2011, 10:41:55 PM
u ask for a miracle, u fail to realize that u are the miracle...life is a miracle...ur nerves,cells,air,water,all the laws of nature are miracles...

These things are complex and fascinating... but they are not miraculous. AbiogenesisWiki explains the origin of life on earth and EvolutionWiki explains its increased complexity and diversity as a result of natural processes over millions of years.

These are scientifically proven facts that don't require a god in their explanation.

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faith comes when its actually impossible to beleive

Faith is belief in something without evidence. So faith comes with belief. What you have said makes no sense.

Quote
...i once experienced a miracle on myself...even today it is impossible to beleive wat happened but it did and now i have a testimony

The same claims are made by Muslims and Hindus... why don't you believe them too?

Quote
...one day my friend,you will come to ur maker...not only did u shun Him,but ur preachin to others to do the same

Let me guess ... this is the part where I am threatened with the eternal torturous punishment of hell.

What kind of a god would threat his creation? A cruel and sadistic one. Luckily, he is only imaginary.

Quote
now here's my theory to u..if i told u u had won a million dollars,would u rather u came to claim the prize and then find it were a lie after all or would u rather not went and it were really true that u had actually won...i promise u somethin greater than a million dollars,life.and it isnt costin u anythin to beleive it.but the cost of not beleivin it will be great...but like it is written in Deut 19,choose life.its not God we favor by comin to Him,its ourselves we do.

The argument you are trying to use here has a name. It's called Pascal's WagerWiki and it has been thoroughly refuted. In fact, it's considered one of the worst arguments for the existence of god.

You'll find some criticisms in that wikipedia link but I prefer this link which explains it in detail:
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Pascal%27s_wager#Counter-arguments

I would never worship a god that threatens me with hell for not believing in his existence when there is no evidence for it. That is sick and twisted.
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Online pianodwarf

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Re: Interesting [#2564]
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2011, 08:13:05 AM »
Quote from: PostalGirl on June 12, 2011, 10:41:55 PM
My names are [Name].am a Catholic

I see that some of the others are already giving you some "help", so I'll just stick with this thing here.  I'm going to ask you the same thing that I ask everyone who openly admits to being Catholic -- or, rather, I'm going to let Greta Christina ask the question for me: Why are you still Catholic?
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Offline Historicity

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Re: Interesting [#2564]
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2011, 09:24:37 AM »
Actually, thru the IM abbrs this poster has the kernel of an original thought.

It is a problem with motivation of salesmen called "Fear of Success".

I worked in a couple sales organizations and one of them was in retail direct sales so motivation was an ongoing problem requiring lots of lectures and, on the part of the administrators, lots of study.

One of the problems the president of the company would grouse about was "Fear of Success".  He saw people pull back from winning.  He saw lottery winners spend themselves back to the same level they were before they won.  Success would change their lives, lifestyles, friendships and human associations.  It would be so discomforting that the fortunate person has to make themselves back into the old familiar unfortunate person.

So the poster is accusing us of that. 

Well, I thought the president of that company was partly wrong then but when he was on a roll I knew better than to contradict him.  But yes, I've seen that phenomenon in some people including myself.

Of course, the meaning of the specific "Why Won't God Heal Amputees?" is the larger question that the Old and New Testaments promise extensive, nearly unlimited results from prayer.  This reasonably follows that you are tapping into the power of an omnimax god.

My view is that 2000 years ago we were promised that if someone had even a tiny amount of real faith they could relocate geographic objects -- move a mountain far away.  So far no one has been able to do that -- including Jesus himself.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Interesting [#2564]
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2011, 10:33:26 AM »
Quote from: PostalGirl on June 12, 2011, 10:41:55 PM
In your site,you pose very interesting facts on how we should beleive in the inexistence of God...My names are [Name].am a Catholic from Kenya.and am not writin to u so that u change ur stand in wat u bliv...u can use my post to add to ur facts too.u ask for a miracle, u fail to realize that u are the miracle...life is a miracle...ur nerves,cells,air,water,all the laws of nature are miracles
and all theists, no matter what god they worship, claim the same thing.  Will the real creator god stand up?

the rest of this post reads like one of those scams where they promise yuo all sorts of money if you'd just trust them..... :)  Evidently no suprise this came from an African.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Interesting [#2564]
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2011, 09:29:55 AM »
Quote from: PostalGirl on June 12, 2011, 10:41:55 PM
In your site,you pose very interesting facts on how we should beleive in the inexistence of God...My names are [Name].am a Catholic from Kenya.and am not writin to u so that u change ur stand in wat u bliv...u can use my post to add to ur facts too.u ask for a miracle, u fail to realize that u are the miracle...life is a miracle...ur nerves,cells,air,water,all the laws of nature are miracles...and no,God wont move skyscrappers so that you will beleive Him.u beleive in Him by faith...u wont get a miracle if u wont beleive 1st.tho ur already livin amidst miracles...faith comes when its actually impossible to beleive...i once experienced a miracle on myself...even today it is impossible to beleive wat happened but it did and now i have a testimony...one day my friend,you will come to ur maker...not only did u shun Him,but ur preachin to others to do the same...better u don believe then and leave it alone...now here's my theory to u..if i told u u had won a million dollars,would u rather u came to claim the prize and then find it were a lie after all or would u rather not went and it were really true that u had actually won...i promise u somethin greater than a million dollars,life.and it isnt costin u anythin to beleive it.but the cost of not beleivin it will be great...but like it is written in Deut 19,choose life.its not God we favor by comin to Him,its ourselves we do.

"am not writin to u so that u change ur stand in wat u bliv"

Why do you lie?

"u fail to realize that u are the miracle...life is a miracle"

Why are you ignorant of the fact life does not meet the definition of a miracle, something that transend physical laws?

"i once experienced a miracle on myself...even today it is impossible to beleive wat happened but it did"

Why do you lie....twice...in the sentence?

"if i told u u had won a million dollars,would u rather u came to claim the prize and then find it were a lie after all or would u rather not went and it were really true that u had actually won"

See my sig. Spanish Prisoner Scam also applies, now oft called the Nigerian Scam. I get a lot nowadays saying it is the British Lottery commision. If I spent all my money and time believing these scams, I'd be dead broke and old.





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Most theist/atheist arguments tend to boil down to this: Theists quote scriptures as if they were facts and atheists cite facts as if they were facts.

Offline MadBunny

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Re: Interesting [#2564]
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2011, 02:35:50 AM »
Quote from: PostalGirl on June 12, 2011, 10:41:55 PM
...u wont get a miracle if u wont beleive 1st.tho ur already livin amidst miracles...faith comes when its actually impossible to beleive...i once experienced a miracle on myself...even today it is impossible to beleive wat happened but it did and now i have a testimony...

Thank you for writing.  I am always impressed when people whos first language is not English take up the challenge of communicating in a sophisticated way  using a language they have difficulty with.

Others have replied to your letter, but I'd like to ask you to notice something interesting about science.
You don't have to believe in it for it to work.  You might as a silly example not believe in electricity, or electrons,  and instead think  your computer is powered by electric eels or something.

Science works whether you believe in it or not.  Miracles that only work once you've convinced yourself that they work on the other hand.. not so much.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Interesting [#2564]
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2011, 02:19:52 PM »
@OP: If I may translate your post, it seems you say
Quote
You ask for miracles, life is a miracle, nerves, cells, air, water, all the laws of nature are miracles. You won’t get a miracle if you don’t believe [in God]

I present Pascal’s Wager by way of a lottery story.

Deut 19, choose life. It is not God we favor by comin to Him, it’s ourselves.

 
nerves, cells, air, water, all the laws of nature, are just that, laws of nature, and as such are not miracles.

My experience and the experiences of mosteveryone else is that even by believing, miracles still don’t occur. How many die of starvation, illness, etc? How many times does God interfere with a miracle – never.

Pascal’s wager is illogical.

I have chosen life… I am alive… however, I am aware that one day I will die and no amount of choosing will alter that.

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Offline Historicity

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Re: Interesting [#2564]
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2011, 08:21:32 PM »
Well, I'd agree that there are miracles but in the original definition, not in the English.

Miror, mirari, miratus  =  To look at, to wonder at.
Miraculum  =  Something to be wondered at, a real sight to see.

I have a sense of wonder at things.  This is followed often by frustration and resignation that I will never know.  I have to suspend judgement.   But it is also often followed by the explanation that clicks into place and produces the pleasure of that "Aha!" moment.

All the functions of Nature are miracles.  That's what motivates boys and girls to become scientists.  That means they must violate St. Paul's commandment not to study the details of nature and find the truth in tiny details of cause and effect.
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Online Add Homonym

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Re: Interesting [#2564]
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2011, 01:23:25 AM »
Quote from: Historicity on June 20, 2011, 08:21:32 PM
That means they must violate St. Paul's commandment not to study the details of nature and find the truth in tiny details of cause and effect.

Oh, where is that?
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Interesting [#2564]
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2011, 04:29:31 PM »
Quote from: Add Homonym on June 21, 2011, 01:23:25 AM
Quote from: Historicity on June 20, 2011, 08:21:32 PM
That means they must violate St. Paul's commandment not to study the details of nature and find the truth in tiny details of cause and effect.

Oh, where is that?
I think he means,
1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1 Timothy 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.


More interesting is the piece I bolded (emboldened?); cause and effect is much what Christians claim when defending creation.
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Offline Odin

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Re: Interesting [#2564]
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2011, 06:04:04 PM »
Quote from: Aaron123 on June 12, 2011, 11:02:38 PM
Gaah.  I know there's an argument somewhere in this, but I can't make sense of this shit.

Cm n, rn, y knw y cn lrn t rd ths knd f lngg f th Jws cld hv n lphbt wtht vwls. 

 dn, Kng f th Gds

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Offline Timtheskeptic

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Re: Interesting [#2564]
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2011, 12:49:35 PM »
a miracle. We're the miracle? No we're not. We're flawed creatures that have many problems. We're not a miracle. There's not interesting about us except for our capability to create what we have created today.
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