Author Topic: 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer [#2561]  (Read 1674 times)

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Offline PostalGirl

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I watched the video 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer,
and I must say that some of the statements are not true. I am not in college; I am
still in high school, but I am one of the deepest thinkers at my school and a Christian.
    Now, the video above is based on very sound reasoning, but many of the statements
against Christianity are false. I should know. I'll just take this question by question:
   
    Question 1 - Why won't God heal amputees.
            It's true that many people say that God may have a special plan for amputees, but
            also because of the severity of the disability, many people lose faith right away. Obviously,
            this also prevents them from praying. Over time those still praying may dwindle till none are left.
            This is unfortunate because I believe that if people did actively pray for amputees, they may heal better,
            or, if God wills it, heal them completely. But as said above, many people lose faith to easily.

    Question 2 - Why are there so many starving people in our world?
            The excuse of, "'God wants these children to suffer and die for some divine, mysterious reason.'"
            is way out there. I am sure some people think that but not most. Read into hat your asking on both sides of
            view. "'For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and
            earthquakes in various places.' - Mathew 24:7"

    Question 3 - Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people in the Bible?
            This is two fold. One, in God's eyes they were not innocent, and Jesus had not come as a sacrifice yet.
            Also, remember, much of this was ingrained in the culture back then. So God wasn't the only one to demand the                 death penalty.

    Question 4 - Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense?
            The answer is very simple. Think about a computer program. The programmer can do anything they want.
            They can change things to do actions that would be impossible beforehand. Look at our universe the same way.
            God is the programmer. Our universe is the program. Does it not make sense that God would be able to do                         anything? I mean even things that contradict laws of science. (aka - "anti-scientific nonsense")

    Question 5 - Why is God such a huge proponent of slavery in the Bible?
            You only look at these verses on the surface. Consider the time at which this was written. These verses are lessons             ,and if you look a bit deeper, they are insight to life during the Bible times.

    Question 6 - Why do bad things happen to good people?
            Read the book of Job. Tell me what you think.

    Question 7 - Why didn't any of Jesus' miracles in the Bible leave behind any evidence?
            See Question 4.

    Question 8 - How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you?
            Because when Jesus returns, it will be to take His church.

    Question 9 - Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood?
            It is called a metaphor.

    Question 10 - Why do Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-Christians?
            This one's a doosey. My parents are divorced. My father is a active Christian. My mother is a less active Christian.
            What I believe is that religious differences can push people away from each other. This is a very reasonable
            statement. Also about the verse, the reason that God does not interfere with divorce is because of free will.
            God gave us free will and promised not to make us do anything.

    I hope you find my personal answers to these questions enlightening. Also I must ask if you may remove this video.
I do realize that you probably won't remove it, but I must at least ask. You may or may not want them but I am also sending my prayers.



    Sincerely,                                               
A Teen Christian       

Offline Aaron123

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Re: 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer [#2561]
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2011, 01:26:20 AM »
I watched the video 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer,
and I must say that some of the statements are not true. I am not in college; I am
still in high school, but I am one of the deepest thinkers at my school and a Christian.
    Now, the video above is based on very sound reasoning, but many of the statements
against Christianity are false. I should know. I'll just take this question by question:
   
    Question 1 - Why won't God heal amputees.
            It's true that many people say that God may have a special plan for amputees, but
            also because of the severity of the disability, many people lose faith right away. Obviously,
            this also prevents them from praying. Over time those still praying may dwindle till none are left.
            This is unfortunate because I believe that if people did actively pray for amputees, they may heal better,
            or, if God wills it, heal them completely. But as said above, many people lose faith to easily.

Why does god "requires" begging prayers before he does anything?

Quote
    Question 2 - Why are there so many starving people in our world?
            The excuse of, "'God wants these children to suffer and die for some divine, mysterious reason.'"
            is way out there. I am sure some people think that but not most. Read into hat your asking on both sides of
            view. "'For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and
            earthquakes in various places.' - Mathew 24:7"

This does nothing to answer the question.


   
Quote
Question 3 - Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people in the Bible?
            This is two fold. One, in God's eyes they were not innocent, and Jesus had not come as a sacrifice yet.
            Also, remember, much of this was ingrained in the culture back then. So God wasn't the only one to demand the                 death penalty.

Doesn't really answer the question.  Why is god so bloodthirsty?


   
Quote
Question 4 - Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense?
            The answer is very simple. Think about a computer program. The programmer can do anything they want.
            They can change things to do actions that would be impossible beforehand. Look at our universe the same way.
            God is the programmer. Our universe is the program. Does it not make sense that God would be able to do                         anything? I mean even things that contradict laws of science. (aka - "anti-scientific nonsense")

Invoking magic.


 
Quote
   Question 5 - Why is God such a huge proponent of slavery in the Bible?
            You only look at these verses on the surface. Consider the time at which this was written. These verses are lessons             ,and if you look a bit deeper, they are insight to life during the Bible times.

Doesn't answer the question.  Why does god condone slavery?


Quote
    Question 6 - Why do bad things happen to good people?
            Read the book of Job. Tell me what you think.

God likes to gamble people's lives with the devil.  Is that the answer you were thinking of?


   
Quote
Question 7 - Why didn't any of Jesus' miracles in the Bible leave behind any evidence?
            See Question 4.

Non-answer.


Quote
    Question 8 - How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you?
            Because when Jesus returns, it will be to take His church.
   

This means nothing.


Quote
Question 9 - Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood?
            It is called a metaphor.

So what is it a metaphor for?  Why do some sects of christianity insists that the bread and wine used during communion actually becomes the flesh and blood of Jesus?  Why even use the idea of others eating and drinking your flesh and blood?


 
Quote
  Question 10 - Why do Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-Christians?
            This one's a doosey. My parents are divorced. My father is a active Christian. My mother is a less active Christian.
            What I believe is that religious differences can push people away from each other. This is a very reasonable
            statement. Also about the verse, the reason that God does not interfere with divorce is because of free will.
            God gave us free will and promised not to make us do anything.

Again; this doesn't really answer the question.  What's the difference between this and a god that doesn't exist?
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Online pianodwarf

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Re: 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer [#2561]
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2011, 04:27:31 AM »
I watched the video 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer, and I must say that some of the statements are not true.

Questions are not statements.  Questions are questions and cannot be true or false.  "Do you understand?"

Quote
Question 1 - Why won't God heal amputees.
It's true that many people say that God may have a special plan for amputees, but also because of the severity of the disability, many people lose faith right away. Obviously, this also prevents them from praying. Over time those still praying may dwindle till none are left.  This is unfortunate because I believe that if people did actively pray for amputees, they may heal better, or, if God wills it, heal them completely. But as said above, many people lose faith to easily.

Are you saying that out of all the people who have prayed for amputees over the millennia, not a single one has had sufficient faith to heal one?

Quote
Question 2 - Why are there so many starving people in our world?
The excuse of, "'God wants these children to suffer and die for some divine, mysterious reason.'" is way out there. I am sure some people think that but not most. Read into hat your asking on both sides of view. "'For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places.' - Mathew 24:7"

Does not answer the question.

Quote
Question 3 - Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people in the Bible?
This is two fold. One, in God's eyes they were not innocent

Please look me straight in the eye and tell me you think that it is just to give someone the death penalty for working on the Sabbath (whichever day that is).

Quote
and Jesus had not come as a sacrifice yet.

Why was a sacrifice even required?  An omnipotent being shouldn't "need" to do anything.

Quote
Also, remember, much of this was ingrained in the culture back then. So God wasn't the only one to demand the death penalty.

Why didn't Yahweh override the unjust elements of the culture?

Quote
Question 4 - Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense?
The answer is very simple. Think about a computer program. The programmer can do anything they want.  They can change things to do actions that would be impossible beforehand. Look at our universe the same way.  God is the programmer. Our universe is the program. Does it not make sense that God would be able to do anything? I mean even things that contradict laws of science. (aka - "anti-scientific nonsense")

The bible says that bats are birds, that rabbits chew the cud, that insects have four legs, that the value of pi is three, and that water did not refract light before a global flood (which never happened).  This is the anti-scientific nonsense we are referring to.  Why is it in the bible?

Quote
Question 5 - Why is God such a huge proponent of slavery in the Bible?
You only look at these verses on the surface. Consider the time at which this was written. These verses are lessons, and if you look a bit deeper, they are insight to life during the Bible times.

Does not answer the question.

Quote
Question 6 - Why do bad things happen to good people?
Read the book of Job. Tell me what you think.

I think it means that Yahweh is world-class asshole.

Quote
Question 7 - Why didn't any of Jesus' miracles in the Bible leave behind any evidence?
See Question 4.

Does not answer the question.

Quote
Question 8 - How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you?
Because when Jesus returns, it will be to take His church.

Does not answer the question.

Quote
Question 9 - Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood?
It is called a metaphor.

Okay, metaphorically, why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood?  (And by the way, it is not a metaphor for Catholics.)

Quote
Question 10 - Why do Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-Christians?
This one's a doosey. My parents are divorced. My father is a active Christian. My mother is a less active Christian. What I believe is that religious differences can push people away from each other. This is a very reasonable statement.

That's certainly true.

Quote
Also about the verse, the reason that God does not interfere with divorce is because of free will.  God gave us free will and promised not to make us do anything.

Yahweh interferes with free will in the bible all the time.  How many times did he "harden Pharaoh's heart" during the plagues, for example?

Quote
I hope you find my personal answers to these questions enlightening.

Not really, but thank you for writing.

Quote
Also I must ask if you may remove this video.

You may ask, as others have before you.  And you will receive the same answer they did.  And anyway, why the hell should we remove it?  Can you give me one good reason?

Quote
You may or may not want them but I am also sending my prayers.

No, I don't want them, not in this case.  There are times when people say that they'll pray for me, and I appreciate what they're saying because they really do mean well and are concerned for me in some way.  This is not one such case... I don't know whether you realize it or not, but when a Christian challenges a skeptic's views and then ends his opinion by saying, "I'm praying for you" or "God bless", it doesn't make you sound like a caring, sensitive person.  It makes you sound like an arrogant, pompous ass.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline plethora

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Re: 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer [#2561]
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2011, 04:36:06 AM »
    Question 1 - Why won't God heal amputees.
            It's true that many people say that God may have a special plan for amputees, but
            also because of the severity of the disability, many people lose faith right away. Obviously,
            this also prevents them from praying. Over time those still praying may dwindle till none are left.
            This is unfortunate because I believe that if people did actively pray for amputees, they may heal better,
            or, if God wills it, heal them completely. But as said above, many people lose faith to easily.

Let's imagine you are in a bad situation ... let's say you were bench pressing and I was your spotter. There's no one else around. You cave under the weight and the bar is pressing on your chest. You're stuck and in a bit of pain. Only I, your spotter, can help you. I have the capability to help you.

... but before I help you, I tell you that you have to ask me nicely. You ask me nicely, but I say... "hmm... not good enough. I need you to beg". You start begging and I say "nope, not good enough... convince me that you mean it or I won't help you". You keep begging for help and eventually I just walk away, blaming you for not being sincere enough when you were asking for help.

What is you opinion of me in that scenario? I would expect you to think I'm a total dickwad who stands idly by as another person is in danger or suffering. Well that's exactly what your god is doing if he exists.

How dare you blame the victim? You don't think there has ever been a christian amputee who prayed (i.e. begged) for their limb back with all their heart and sincerity?

Here's a simple answer to why god doesn't heal amputees: He Does Not Exist.

Quote
    Question 2 - Why are there so many starving people in our world?
            The excuse of, "'God wants these children to suffer and die for some divine, mysterious reason.'"
            is way out there. I am sure some people think that but not most. Read into hat your asking on both sides of
            view. "'For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and
            earthquakes in various places.' - Mathew 24:7"

Again... christians claim god is omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient. So if he exists, he can heal the suffering of an innocent 3 year old african child who has suffered malnutrition and disease during their short life until their untimely death before ever even reaching puberty. He clearly choses not to. That makes him a dickwad. Luckily he doesn't actually exist.

Quote
    Question 3 - Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people in the Bible?
            This is two fold. One, in God's eyes they were not innocent, and Jesus had not come as a sacrifice yet.
            Also, remember, much of this was ingrained in the culture back then. So God wasn't the only one to demand the                 death penalty.

I have to agree with you on one thing... god's level of morality is on par with the people of the time these ancient books were written.

Do you know why? Because they made it up... that's why. Primitive, barbaric men from primitive middle eastern tribes wrote the books and god's immoral character is a projection of their own.

God is a fictional character, get over it.

Quote
    Question 4 - Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense?
            The answer is very simple. Think about a computer program. The programmer can do anything they want.
            They can change things to do actions that would be impossible beforehand. Look at our universe the same way.
            God is the programmer. Our universe is the program. Does it not make sense that God would be able to do                         anything? I mean even things that contradict laws of science. (aka - "anti-scientific nonsense")

Sure, fictional characters can do that. After all, the above description also applies to Neo, the chosen one, from the Matrix films.

Quote
    Question 5 - Why is God such a huge proponent of slavery in the Bible?
            You only look at these verses on the surface. Consider the time at which this was written. These verses are lessons             ,and if you look a bit deeper, they are insight to life during the Bible times.

See counter response #3. The authors project themselves onto their fictional character. The authors lived in a morally inferior time. The fictional character therefore is just as morally bankrupt.

Quote
    Question 6 - Why do bad things happen to good people?
            Read the book of Job. Tell me what you think.

Would you agree to a father gambling his son's life with a criminal? Handing his son over to the criminal and letting him do horrible things to him, just to prove that his son still loves him despite all that? That is sick as fuck.

Quote
    Question 7 - Why didn't any of Jesus' miracles in the Bible leave behind any evidence?
            See Question 4.

Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill?

Quote
    Question 8 - How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you?
            Because when Jesus returns, it will be to take His church.

Baseless claim. Prove it. (hint: "the bible says so" is not proof).

Also, this is an admission that you believe in something you have never seen for yourself.

Quote
    Question 9 - Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood?
            It is called a metaphor.

My 8 year-old daughter loved her grandmother very much. Her grandma died a couple of years ago of a neurological illness. She remembers her fondly.

Let's imagine I told my daughter that every time she wanted to feel close to her deceased grandmother, she should pour some cranberry juice in a cup and take a cracker out of the cupboard. She should pretend that the cranberry juice is her grandmother's blood and the cracker is her body and then eat/drink them. That way her grandmother will be 'inside' of her.

Do you think that would be healthy?

If you do, you are one sick fella.

Quote
    Question 10 - Why do Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-Christians?
            This one's a doosey. My parents are divorced. My father is a active Christian. My mother is a less active Christian.
            What I believe is that religious differences can push people away from each other. This is a very reasonable
            statement. Also about the verse, the reason that God does not interfere with divorce is because of free will.
            God gave us free will and promised not to make us do anything.

Thanks for acknowledging that religion deepens divides between groups rather than unite them.

The point of this question is that marriages made before your god are no more sacred or stable than any other union between two people.

Quote
    I hope you find my personal answers to these questions enlightening.

Not at all.

Quote
Also I must ask if you may remove this video.
I do realize that you probably won't remove it, but I must at least ask.

Why? You're afraid the video might actually make people think?

Quote
You may or may not want them but I am also sending my prayers.

So your god ignores amputees prayers but actually listens to yours. Arrogance upon arrogance. As if reciting magic spells actually did anything.  &)
« Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 04:44:00 AM by plethora »
The truth doesn't give a shit about our feelings.

Offline grant

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Re: 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer [#2561]
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2011, 06:16:05 AM »
Well, A Teen Christian, I hope your self recognition as a deep thinker encourages you to think a bit deeper yet.

Try to put yourself in the place of some of the people you so blithely write off. Amputees, slaves, women, children, lets just kill all the first born males, perfectly reasonable?

If you lost an arm in a car crash, you yourself would become a non-believer? You, nor even those close to you would even bother praying? If you believe that, you're no christian now.

Please take the time to read the responses to your shallow, conceited answers. Take a step back and try to see the source of your answers, see just how ingrained they are in relation to your upbringing, influenced by family, friends, society. Those answers are not those of a deep, independent thinker at all.
What if the hokey pokey is what its all about?

Offline Hatter23

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Re: 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer [#2561]
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2011, 07:31:39 AM »
I watched the video 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer,
and I must say that some of the statements are not true. I am not in college; I am
still in high school, but I am one of the deepest thinkers at my school and a Christian.
    Now, the video above is based on very sound reasoning, but many of the statements
against Christianity are false. I should know. I'll just take this question by question:
   

And I will show the fallacies in your responces, answer by answer.


    Question 1 - Why won't God heal amputees.
            It's true that many people say that God may have a special plan for amputees, but
            also because of the severity of the disability, many people lose faith right away. Obviously,
            this also prevents them from praying. Over time those still praying may dwindle till none are left.
            This is unfortunate because I believe that if people did actively pray for amputees, they may heal better,
            or, if God wills it, heal them completely. But as said above, many people lose faith to easily.

Begging the Question, No true Scottsman



    Question 2 - Why are there so many starving people in our world?
            The excuse of, "'God wants these children to suffer and die for some divine, mysterious reason.'"
            is way out there. I am sure some people think that but not most. Read into hat your asking on both sides of
            view. "'For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and
            earthquakes in various places.' - Mathew 24:7"

Begging the question, Appeal to Authority


    Question 3 - Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people in the Bible?
            This is two fold. One, in God's eyes they were not innocent, and Jesus had not come as a sacrifice yet.
            Also, remember, much of this was ingrained in the culture back then. So God wasn't the only one to demand the                 death penalty.

Appeal to Authority, Ignoring the Counterevidence(like some were less than a day old)



    Question 4 - Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense?
            The answer is very simple. Think about a computer program. The programmer can do anything they want.
            They can change things to do actions that would be impossible beforehand. Look at our universe the same way.
            God is the programmer. Our universe is the program. Does it not make sense that God would be able to do                         anything? I mean even things that contradict laws of science. (aka - "anti-scientific nonsense")


Ignoring the counterevidence(Bats are Birds, Pi is three, the cure for Lepers)


    Question 5 - Why is God such a huge proponent of slavery in the Bible?
            You only look at these verses on the surface. Consider the time at which this was written. These verses are lessons             ,and if you look a bit deeper, they are insight to life during the Bible times.

Non sequitur


    Question 6 - Why do bad things happen to good people?
            Read the book of Job. Tell me what you think.

Non Sequitur, Begging the Question


    Question 7 - Why didn't any of Jesus' miracles in the Bible leave behind any evidence?
            See Question 4.

Begging the question, Appeal to ignorance



    Question 8 - How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you?
            Because when Jesus returns, it will be to take His church.

Begging the question


    Question 9 - Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood?
            It is called a metaphor.

Begging the question

    Question 10 - Why do Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-Christians?
            This one's a doosey. My parents are divorced. My father is a active Christian. My mother is a less active Christian.
            What I believe is that religious differences can push people away from each other. This is a very reasonable
            statement. Also about the verse, the reason that God does not interfere with divorce is because of free will.
            God gave us free will and promised not to make us do anything.


Non Sequitur




    I hope you find my personal answers to these questions enlightening. Also I must ask if you may remove this video.
I do realize that you probably won't remove it, but I must at least ask. You may or may not want them but I am also sending my prayers.

   Sincerely,                                               
A Teen Christian     

First of all, no your aswers were actually not enlightening, they were bog standand  low level apologist stuff, mainly relying on begging the question, or circular logic is you prefer. And I can't fathom why so many of you have the fantastic arrogance to ask for the video to be taken down. You seem afraid of actually thinking deeply about them. And it is arrogance, I've never written any preacher to take down any sermon or scripture, except when it was on public property, or placed on private property without the owners concent. I haven't because regardless of the fact that these are mythology, I understand it is their belief and hope that people will eventually grow up any realize it cannot stand up to logic.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline velkyn

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Re: 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer [#2561]
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2011, 08:02:55 AM »
Question 2 - Why are there so many starving people in our world?
            The excuse of, "'God wants these children to suffer and die for some divine, mysterious reason.'" is way out there. I am sure some people think that but not most. Read into hat your asking on both sides of  view. "'For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places.' - Mathew 24:7"
  Yes, about that.... How's the rapture going for you?
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Question 4 - Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense? The answer is very simple. Think about a computer program. The programmer can do anything they want. They can change things to do actions that would be impossible beforehand. Look at our universe the same way.  God is the programmer. Our universe is the program. Does it not make sense that God would be able to do anything? I mean even things that contradict laws of science. (aka - "anti-scientific nonsense")
  Funny how this god can't seem to do that anymore.  Did he lose his mojo?  Or did he never exist and the stories are just myths? 
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Question 6 - Why do bad things happen to good people? Read the book of Job. Tell me what you think.
  That your god is a sadistic asshole.  What decent human being would accept a "new" family from the being that was the cause of their deaths over a bet with another being? 

oh and you are "sending your prayers".  Send them to who? God?  Funny how God never answers prayers from Christians like you.  I'm sure cowards like you would love to see the videos removed and pray and pray to get that done but golly, it never happens.  I've had many Christians claime that they are praying for me to accept their god.  Also never happens.  Why is this, OP?  Why can't your god do anything and you have to rely on coincidence and parlor tricks to support your faith?
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Hatter23

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Re: 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer [#2561]
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2011, 09:26:41 AM »

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Also I must ask if you may remove this video.

You may ask, as others have before you.  And you will receive the same answer they did.  And anyway, why the hell should we remove it?  Can you give me one good reason?

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You may or may not want them but I am also sending my prayers.

No, I don't want them, not in this case.  There are times when people say that they'll pray for me, and I appreciate what they're saying because they really do mean well and are concerned for me in some way.  This is not one such case... I don't know whether you realize it or not, but when a Christian challenges a skeptic's views and then ends his opinion by saying, "I'm praying for you" or "God bless", it doesn't make you sound like a caring, sensitive person.  It makes you sound like an arrogant, pompous ass.

The arrogance within the tone of false humility gets on my nerves. The "I'll pray for you" is bad enough, but after a few decaded, I suppose I'm used to it, but the asking for the videos to be taken down...is just beyond irritating, it is a demonstration of how big of pompous blowhards Christians can be. Even the big bogeyman of "Political Correctness" never seems to ask for something like "The Drudge Report" to be shut down(other than in the minds of conservative peabrains)

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer [#2561]
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2011, 09:31:14 AM »
As touching as your naïve view on life is, it is also a sign that you are not using your brain to its full extent. This is a pity, as your writing shows you are quite intelligent.

Let’s look at the problems your answers create:
Question 1 - Why won't God heal amputees.
Over time those still praying may dwindle till none are left.
Find an amputee – pray for him/her to be made whole – never give up. See if God answers your prayer. Do you think some guy with one leg will wake up with 2 legs?

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Question 2 - Why are there so many starving people in our world?
"'For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and
earthquakes in various places.' - Mathew 24:7"
Before and after Christ there has never been a day when this was not happening. It is rather like saying, “I will do that when it stops raining over the entire earth.” It isn’t going to happen.

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Question 3 - Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people in the Bible?
Also, remember, much of this was ingrained in the culture back then. So God wasn't the only one to demand the death penalty.
So why should we try to adopt a 5000 year old culture? Isn’t ours better than God’s?

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Question 4 - Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense?
God is the programmer. Our universe is the program. Does it not make sense that God would be able to do anything? I mean even things that contradict laws of science. (aka - "anti-scientific nonsense")
I think you have missed the point here. God knows everything, yet states pi=3, that bats are birds, that leprosy can be cured easily by a priest. God must have known these were wrong, mustn’t he?

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Question 5 - Why is God such a huge proponent of slavery in the Bible?
You only look at these verses on the surface. Consider the time at which this was written. These verses are lessons, and if you look a bit deeper, they are insight to life during the Bible times.
Yes, they are but do you believe that they are God’s Words? If they are God’s words, they must be true, right? So we should have slaves. OK? If God writes lies, what parts of the Bible can we believe? I think that the bible was written by men who never spoke to God at all and never had God speak to them. What do you think?

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Question 6 - Why do bad things happen to good people?
Read the book of Job. Tell me what you think.
The book of Job has been discussed many times. God allows Satan to take control of Jobs life for a bet. Why didn’t God just say, “Clear off Satan, you must think I’m mad if you think I will let you torture one of my people to win a bet. I know everything and therefore know the answer.”

 
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Question 7 - Why didn't any of Jesus' miracles in the Bible leave behind any evidence?
See Question 4.
That’s no answer at all. You must realise that the Priests and the Romans could write and did, yet no one mentions Jesus or the alleged miracles. Nobody, nobody at all.

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Question 8 - How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you?
Because when Jesus returns, it will be to take His church.
That is not an answer.

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Question 9 - Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood?
It is called a metaphor.
At least you’re not catholic. There may be some hope for you yet.

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Question 10 - Why do Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-Christians?
What I believe is that religious differences can push people away from each other. God gave us free will.
So atheists use their free will better than Christians? I think you are right.

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I am also sending my prayers.
Please do not do that, if there is a God, He knows better than you. Whatever his plan for us atheists, is, according to Him, just and right. If you ask Him to do something else, you are saying His Plan is wrong, and he will smite you.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Historicity

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Re: 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer [#2561]
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2011, 04:23:32 PM »
I've been trying to figure out how amputees who pray "heal better".  A much nicer stump?  Less problem with phantom pain?
« Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 04:41:39 PM by Historicity »

Offline Historicity

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Re: 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer [#2561]
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2011, 05:04:48 PM »
The Bible does not allege that pi = 3.

If you read the original passage and take the reference to the diameter of the Molten Sea as being the inside diameter it not only works out but is a mathematical tour de force by the engineer.  BTW, the engineer was a pagan from Tyre, a city that was as cosmopolitan as New York.  The entire work of the Temple was done by pagans including the pagan architect.  Just reread the passages and note all the graven images that packed it like the bull statues that held up the Molten Sea.  Sheeesh!  Solomon didn't even go so far as checking the blueprints.

But much more telling is Mark, chapter 7:
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Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem. And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not.  And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, "Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?"

He answered and said unto them, ... [Jesus obfuscates and evades in a pointless sermon loaded with ad hominem, which I have snipped.]
7:14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand: "There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man."
People miss this zinger.  The context makes it clear: there is no metaphorical meaning possible.  Jesus rejected the germ theory of disease.  He also noted that the Jews had no claim that it was a prophecy.  They had done it from experience and observation.

You can see the effect of his teaching in the sanitation practices of the Middle Ages.


Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer [#2561]
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2011, 11:27:42 PM »
Question 3 - Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people in the Bible?
This is two fold. One, in God's eyes they were not innocent, and Jesus had not come as a sacrifice yet. Also,   remember, much of this was ingrained in the culture back then. So God wasn't the only one to demand the death penalty.

Think about it. Who wrote the bible? And why is it consistent with human culture at the time? Could it be the whole thing is a human invention, and that's why "this was ingrained"?

A religion that meets the needs of the powerful and the clerics is not coincidental. If you're gonna try controlling the masses, fear is a nice tool to use. Look how the good reverend Camping just scared the living crap out of many thousands of followers. He got what he wanted out of the deal. I don't know what it was, but he got it.

The reason you god did all this stuff thousands of years ago is because that's when guys could get away with making up crap like this. These days fiction sells better at Barnes and Nobel so nobody (or at least not many) are busy making more god stuff up. And those that are at it today don't get many followers because they can only appeal to one small subsection of idiots at a time. Baby talk isn't for large groups.

Sorry you're still sold on all of this stuff. I don't feel like voluntarily knocking 50 points of my IQ, so I think I'll stay an atheist.



Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer [#2561]
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2011, 04:56:06 AM »
People miss this zinger.  The context makes it clear: there is no metaphorical meaning possible.  Jesus rejected the germ theory of disease.  He also noted that the Jews

I didn't miss that zinger. It's an interesting one. The Jews sort of start off with food laws that may be related to health, but mostly it's about obsessively washing your hands after you wake up, have sex, or just about anything else. It's only a late theory that the Jews forbade pork because of health reasons. However, various sects were into vegetarianism, which Paul didn't like. "Jesus" gets sick of it all and says that you don't need to wash your hands anymore, and it doesn't matter what foods you eat. This is expressly against Jewish law, which is supposed to still hold, according to Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. I can never understand this conflict in Christianity. The bottom line is that the Jewish food laws were not really about disease (as we know it), but they believed that if you ate the wrong foods, you would have a shorter lifespan because you sinned.

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    Question 6 - Why do bad things happen to good people?
            Read the book of Job. Tell me what you think.

The book of Job was written for a non-Christian context, and details (to the point of tedium) that the people of the time believed that God would punish you or reward you IN THIS LIFE, if you feared him. If you fear God, he will make you the richest man in the land. Job was a 'perfect' man, yet God slew his children for the hell of it. Then, for an unspecified reason, Job gives up, and God stops punishing him. But, the point of the moral play seems to be that if you survive this ordeal-by-God, he will reward you AGAIN, by making you the richest man in the land, and give you twice the riches that you had before, and let you live to 200.

Job was rich because he was good. You can tell good people because they are always rich. Bill Gates, George Soros, Donald Trump, Warren Buffet, are all 'perfect' people, who have survived their ordeal-by-God, and will live to 200 years of age, like Job.

The book of Job does not answer why good poor people exist, and why God apparently goes around torturing people of modest means. It also doesn't address the issue of whether you will be rewarded in the afterlife, because when Job was written, there was no afterlife concept. The book of Job is one instance of one rich and 'perfect' man being tortured for decades, to prove a point to Satan. The book of Job is meant to instill the idea that you will be poor and dead, if you don't follow the Jewish law of God, NOT to prove to modern day Christians that God goes around torturing random good, poor people to test their faith.

The book of Job is anathema to Christian context. It is from a different religion. If you can't see that, then look again, with your eyes open.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Historicity

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Re: 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer [#2561]
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2011, 10:27:10 PM »
I didn't miss that zinger. It's an interesting one. The Jews sort of start off with food laws that may be related to health,
They had made observations about contamination by feces.  Yes, they had observed disease effects.

The Seminoles told their children not to eat food that had been dropped on the ground.  That was for the ghosts.  If you ate the ghosts' food you would get sick from the ghosts attacking you.

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It's only a late theory that the Jews forbade pork because of health reasons.
Moses stated that pork was held to be an abomination in other lands.  Pork was forbidden to Egyptians.

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However, various sects were into vegetarianism,
Yes, Josephus Flavius praised one that only ate figs and water.
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"Jesus" gets sick of it all and says that you don't need to wash your hands anymore, and it doesn't matter what foods you eat.
That is NOT supported in the text.  On the contrary, Jesus said that filth couldn't kill you if you were pure of heart.

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The bottom line is that the Jewish food laws were not really about disease (as we know it), but they believed that if you ate the wrong foods, you would have a shorter lifespan because you sinned.
Bottom line: That is a non-sequitur.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer [#2561]
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2011, 12:10:14 AM »
I think you are correct in saying that Jesus espoused eating any crap, and that it would not "defile" you. This shows a clear ignorance of pathogenic transmission by Christians, but is not relevant to their thought.

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Jesus said that filth couldn't kill you if you were pure of heart.

He says, point blank, that nothing going into your mouth defiles you, whether you are pure of heart or not. But what does "defile" mean?

Matt 15:11
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
<snip>
These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

The clue is in the second instance: you are defiled by saying bad things. You can't catch disease by saying bad things.

The Jews equated sin with disease. It was axiomatic to them that if you sinned, you got sick; rather than if you ate "unhealthy" foods you got sick.

Matt 9
[2] And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
[3] And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.
[4] And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
[5] For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

How else could their God reward them for being good, or punish them for being bad? There was no afterlife. Deut 28 sets it out.

Romans knew about germs around 36BC (Marcus Terentius Varro). Hindus knew possibly much earlier (atharva veda), but it is difficult to date Hindu texts.

As you noted

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The Seminoles told their children not to eat food that had been dropped on the ground.  That was for the ghosts.  If you ate the ghosts' food you would get sick from the ghosts attacking you.

These incorrect attributions would lead people to take the wrong precautions against microbes. It's difficult to get to the bottom of why Jews thought pork was so bad. Many theories abound. People are stating quite categorically, that you cannot bleed a pig, because the anatomy of its neck is different. This is the Muslim explanation. Yet, I can't verify that their jugular vein is different. Both Christians and Muslims pretend that pigs are full of disease, so it's a rational law, and the wisdom of God, but we eats pigs today. The common explanation is that God told us not to eat pork. It was possibly "re-discovered", (assuming it was known in the first place) in the 10th century, but I cannot find the cite.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer [#2561]
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2011, 02:51:39 AM »
Tacitus believed that the Jews did not eat pork because they believed pigs could get leprosy.

They avoid eating pork in memory of their tribulations, as they themselves were once infected with the disease to which this creature is subject.

Armadillos get leprosy, but not pigs.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Nam

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Re: 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer [#2561]
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2011, 10:44:37 AM »
I love the answers this person gives.  They don't actually answer anything; they just give their opinion, and if they can't give their opinion they tell us to go look up the answer.

How idiotic.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline Grogs

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Re: 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer [#2561]
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2011, 03:20:59 PM »
The Bible does not allege that pi = 3.

If you read the original passage and take the reference to the diameter of the Molten Sea as being the inside diameter it not only works out but is a mathematical tour de force by the engineer. 

I went and read the passage (1 Kings 7:22 or thereabouts if you're interested) and I don't think the math supports what you're saying. It says that the diameter is 10 cubits (~15 feet) and that it measures 30 cubits (~45 feet) around. It also says that the thickness was a hand's span, which is 3" according to the footnote. So if the inner diameter is 15 feet, this would make the outer diameter 15.5 feet, which yields an outer circumference of 48.7 feet = 32.5 cubits - even worse than 10 cubits * PI = 31.4 cubits we would expect. The only way you can make the math work out is to assume that the dimensions represent an outer diameter and an inner circumference, in which case 14.5 * PI = 45.6 feet = 30.4 cubits. That would be a bizarre way to make a measurement though since it's so much easier to measure an inner circumference (run the rope around and pull it tight) than an inner one where you have to actually tape/glue/hold the rope at every point along the circumference to get an accurate measurement.

Personally, I've always ascribed the reason for the 10 cubit diameter and 30 cubit circumference to rounding. The priests writing the description were probably more interested in describing how big their bowls were[1] than making actual blueprints. So when they sent Jethpah up there with his measuring line and he told them the diameter was somewhere between 9 and 10 cubits, they naturally wrote 10 because it was a more impressive number. Perfectly reasonable if one assumes that the book was written by fairly primitive people with a tenuous grasp of math and geometry.
 1. And we've got the biggest bowls of them all!

Offline Graybeard

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Re: 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer [#2561]
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2011, 08:02:43 PM »
A cubit is the length of the forearm from elbow to wrist
A hands breadth is the width of the palm alone or ~one third of a cubit
If the external diameter were 10 Cubits,
The internal diameter would be 9.6667 cubits
The external circumference was 30 cubits.

Pi = c/d or 30/9.6667 = 3.10343
Yet pi is ~3.14159
3.14159 – 3.10343 = 0.03815 or an error of 1.2%
Taking pi as 3 gives a error of 4.5%

Josiah, in whose reign all this took place, lived 647-609 BC and came to the throne in 639BC. Archimedes, the father of pi, flourished 287 BC - 212 BC, i.e. 400 years later.

The main point here is that an omniscient god’s knowledge is always limited to the state of knowledge of the man writing it down, which gives the impression that there is no God dictating the Bible, which God said He did.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Grogs

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Re: 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer [#2561]
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2011, 10:36:28 AM »
Josiah, in whose reign all this took place, lived 647-609 BC and came to the throne in 639BC. Archimedes, the father of pi, flourished 287 BC - 212 BC, i.e. 400 years later.

The main point here is that an omniscient god’s knowledge is always limited to the state of knowledge of the man writing it down, which gives the impression that there is no God dictating the Bible, which God said He did.

Exactly. It's not that fairly primitive priests of the early iron age wrote down that Pi is ~3. We completely expect that. But think what an opportunity this would be for some higher power to show that there was something dictating the verses. Maybe something like, "The diameter was 10 cubits, so the resulting circumference was 31.415926535 ..." followed by about 1000 extra digits. Can you imagine the excitement of theologians over the centuries as better and better calculations slowly revealed 1 or 2 or 10 more digits of Pi and each new calculation matched the old testament. According to the Wikipedia page on Pi, the first one to compute it to over 1000 digits was John von Neumann using the ENIAC computer in 1949, so we would know that who or whatever dictated the 1000 digits of Pi knew at least as much about mathematics as mid-20th Century humans.

Offline Historicity

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Re: 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer [#2561]
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2011, 09:43:14 AM »
The main point here is that an omniscient god’s knowledge is always limited to the state of knowledge of the man writing it down, which gives the impression that there is no God dictating the Bible, which God said He did.
That was my intended point but was not clear.

My posts may seem long but you don't know that when I write them they seem to me to be too long and I go back and excise and simplify material.

BTW, an engineering student communicated the term "an engineering approximation" meaning 3 digit accuracy.  A lot of design is done that way on the assumption that the skilled workmen will do the necessary fudging as the engineer Robert Heinlein described in The Door Into Summer, "bash to fit, sand to finish, paint to cover".

I am always amused and amazed when a Bible believer can be provoked into making this a doctrinal point.  Kent Hovind, for instance, in discussing this said that "obviously" the Jews needed to know the volume.  I dunno, I've never needed to know the volume of something to fill it with water.  I just keep adding water until there's enough.  He concluded, "You can trust the Bible on all matters."

Let's switch to another Bible science topic.  Where is the human body is the mind/soul located?

Hint:  It isn't in the brain.

There is an Egyptian text (which I should have bookmarked) where one of their doctors was amazed that a man with a broken skull had behavior malfunctions and that when he removed the bone splinter from the brain the problem went away.  It was against the medical theory of the times that the brain did thinking.

The Bible, reflecting the known science of the area, puts mental function in the torso.  The heart, speen, kidneys and bowels are all implicated.  The brain is mentioned once but it is considered a graphics processor for dreaming.

And as I pointed out to ServantOfGod, starvation is a very bad piece of medical advice.  Fasting makes you dizzy and irrational and is widely used in shamanism to promote hallucination.   ServantOfGod adequately quoted the Bible to show that fasting is doctrinal.

« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 09:48:29 AM by Historicity »

Offline Historicity

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Re: 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer [#2561]
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2011, 09:54:08 AM »
BTW, Joseph Needham in his book on Chinese science overemphasized some of their discoveries.

Chinese mathematics never developed a method for deriving pi.

Chinese engineers needed a really good measurement for pi so they had an engineering solution.  Some of them built a really huge compass and drew a really big circle and measured it very carefully.  IIRC, they got 5 digit accuracy.


Offline catlady

Re: 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer [#2561]
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2011, 03:18:59 PM »
please join the forum for more detailed discussion!
Devout believers are safeguarded in a high degree against the risks of certain neurotic illnesses; their acceptance of the universal neurosis spares them the task of constructing a personal one.
-Sigmund Freud