Author Topic: A thought about Noah's Ark.....  (Read 3268 times)

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Offline Noman Peopled

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2011, 05:43:28 AM »
Taking it allegorically is a big improvement, it would mean God didn't actually have to use mass death and destruction just to make a point.
Is it, though?

As far as interpreting the story goes, god still sees fit to issue a blanket death penalty for quite literally every living thing on Earth excepting a bunch of animals and one family. The reasons given are very vague if meant to be literal or not, and nowhere does it even go into the possibility of redemption. In this it's very much like the Caananites' genocidal wars it describes elsewhere.
It works as a story of course. Imperial stormtroopers are bad so the Jedi can gut them with impunity. The problem arises not when the text is taken literally but when read as a guide to life. The literalists have to add justifications for a million little things that "could still have happened" (TM) in addition to a mere interpretation, but the message of the text is independent of its contents' factuality. It's largely the message that's worrisome.

For the same reason, the problem of reconciling the Noah story with the concept of free will (and the resulting possibility of redemption) doesn't vanish if the texts in question are metaphorical or allegorical.
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Offline Persephone

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2011, 06:18:18 AM »
Taking it allegorically is a big improvement, it would mean God didn't actually have to use mass death and destruction just to make a point.

I think it's worse than if it were real.

If it's taken literally, God is a real piece of work, but hey! at least it's history, right?

If it's taken allegorically, then the story's writers thought this angle on God was so worthy of admiration that a fake story was written to illustrate these character points. What kind of people would admire this kind of evil so much they would write a story about it?
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2011, 06:37:11 AM »
If its allegorical, then what should we make of the rainbow?

The rainbow is the sign (in the literal version) that god smote the wicked but won't do it again....at least until he changes his mind in Revelation and all the wicked get smitten (see below).

But in an allegory?  We get something happening in reality that promises that something that never happened....will never happen again.  What?

So then I suppose you could look on the (literal) rainbow for the (allegorical) story as saying "god really wanted to kill off all the wicked....but decided not to because there were a handful of good people still around, and left the rainbow as symbol of that promise".  Which is all well and good, but doesn't really make any sense. 

Unless those rainbows continue forever and there IS no second coming or judgement day, then all they are is the equivalent of someone pointing gun at you on a daily basis, pulling the tirigger...and saying "chamber was empty today, see you tomorrow, hyuk hyuk hyuk".  And so not only do we STILL have the questions of free will I initially raised, but also we have to accept god as a homicidal maniac held in check only by whatever whim drives him today. 

Not terribly comforting, I have to say - and again, not a creature that is in any way benevolent.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Noman Peopled

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2011, 07:20:04 AM »
Well, kinda. The story just uses a real-world phenomenon. It's just be a rhetoric figure emphasizing god's resolve to never flood the Earth (again).
We basically get a real-world phenomenon that's used to reinforce the idea that something that happened in the context of the story will never happen (again) within or outside the context of the story, depending on interpretation. An allegorical story can use a real-world reference to use in an otherwise purely fictitious story.
(For example, déjà-vus are glitches in a computer system within the context of the Matrix. It doesn't mean real-life déjà-vus are signs of the presence of Agents.)

Of course you're right that even aliteralist believers can hit a hitch here. They need the story to say that the flood will never happen outside the story as opposed to within its context. That part at least needs to be literal or else it's just another story. To be fair, this one story doesn't seem to be integral enough for cafeteria christians to take the whole rainbow bit seriously. But there are others that are integral and need to be true, like resurrection, redemption, and the garden of Eden thing. They can still be allegories or metaphors but they need to at least represent something real quite accurately. Personally, I'd say that this goes for Noah's flood as well (from a literary standpoint) but then again I don't think the story needs to represent anything real.
It's no like aliteralists can do without jumping through hoops ... They still need to justify somehow why the bible is not just a bunch of books they really like.
"Deferinate" itself appears to be a new word... though I'm perfectly carmotic with it.
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Offline jedweber

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2011, 01:22:22 PM »
Quote from: Noman Peopled link=topic=18877.msg418700#msg418700date=1305715408
As far as interpreting the story goes, god still sees fit to issue a blanket death penalty for quite literally every living thing on Earth excepting a bunch of animals and one family.


I didn't say the story becomes heartwarming and delightful if it's allegorical  :) Just less heinous and arguably more consistent with the Christian claim that God is benevolent.

Remember, a Christian begins with the pre-supposition that humans owe everything to God, as our all-powerful Creator. God is under no obligation to permit our continued existence, that we're allowed to exist at all is an act of love and benevolence. So God's actions can't be equated to human-on-human acts of murder or execution. 

Quote
...the problem of reconciling the Noah story with the concept of free will (and the resulting possibility of redemption) doesn't vanish if the texts in question are metaphorical or allegorical.


I don't know. Believers pre-suppose God wants humans to behave themselves well. In the confines of this story, it's assumed that people were behaving "wickedly", of their own free will, and that they had refused to be redeemed. Of course, if the story were taken literally, one could ask how children and babies could be judged the same way as adults. (I suppose the believer could say that babies' fate is the tragic consequence of man's wickedness, which harms those around them as well as themselves. Also, babies aren't truly "innocent" to a Christian who believes in original sin.)  In any case, it's not as much of a problem if the story is taken allegorically, since no actual babies would have been harmed in the making of the tale.

Metaphorically, humanity has "redeemed" itself through the goodness of Noah's family, and God allows the human race as a whole to continue. The metaphorical fate of the others is a warning that those who reject God and choose wickedness will not be "saved."








Offline velkyn

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2011, 01:41:58 PM »
problem is that there is no offer or opportunity for redemption in the Noah story and thus no free will needed to reject something that didn't happen.  God vanishes for "x" amount of time.  God comes back, decides that since everyone doesn't believe in him (whichI find different than doing anything anti-benevolent), he'll murder them.  then after the flood, Noah, gets drunk, is evidently cuckholded by his son and then curses the son of the the perpetrator.  Yep, a great family this is to redeem humanity.  8)
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Offline mram

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2011, 02:26:17 PM »
Well... my great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great100 grandfather Noah it turns out had demon seed in him too so once again god fucked up.. He started out with Adam and he and his old lady turned out to be rotters so god decided to kill all their kids except one family and THAT family turned ultimately into rotters too... C'mon god! Goddammit! Go back and pick a better family!  &)
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Offline jedweber

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2011, 04:14:46 PM »
problem is that there is no offer or opportunity for redemption in the Noah story and thus no free will needed to reject something that didn't happen.  God vanishes for "x" amount of time.  God comes back, decides that since everyone doesn't believe in him (whichI find different than doing anything anti-benevolent), he'll murder them.  then after the flood, Noah, gets drunk, is evidently cuckholded by his son and then curses the son of the the perpetrator.  Yep, a great family this is to redeem humanity.  8)

Wait, the son cuckolded him? Is that what that bizarre story is supposed to mean? According to the text he just saw Noah naked (after he passed out drunk) and didn't cover him up. The punishment DOES seem strangely harsh (not to mention misdirected) just for inadvertently catching a glimpse of Dad's willy...I figured it had something to do with not respecting or taking care of your parents... 

(And according to some Christians, and 19th century Mormons, it's the story of how we got black people!) 

Anyway, I was reading the story again, and there are other weird details, starting with something about human women fornicating with angels and giving birth to giants (Genesis 6). But it does clearly state that man was full of wickedness and continuous evil in his heart. So the Christian would say that those people exercised their free will in being wicked, and did nothing to be redeemed.
 

Offline jedweber

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2011, 04:21:23 PM »
I think it's worse than if it were real.
If it's taken literally, God is a real piece of work, but hey! at least it's history, right?

If it's taken allegorically, then the story's writers thought this angle on God was so worthy of admiration that a fake story was written to illustrate these character points. What kind of people would admire this kind of evil so much they would write a story about it?

I guess my point was that either way, BS and spin is required to reconcile these actions with a loving and benevolent God.  And to me, the fundie spin is much more repugnant than the non-fundie.

Faced with a story like the Flood (or, even more to the point, genocides of the Canaanites and others) the non-literalist Christian might say "Well, we don't think these things actually happened...of course God doesn't really want to drown babies and slaughter women and children...they're stories that ancient authors wrote to teach a lesson.....they seem barbaric to us because they were written by primitive people with a different value system...they reflect the time and place and limitations of the authors...it's morality as these primitive people imperfectly understood it, not as God intended for an ideal..." etc.

The literalists say "Well, those people really deserved it, they were thoroughly evil...God is right to eradicate evil...the children are contaminated by the evil of their parents...killing them was an act of mercy because the Isrealites couldn't take care of them..." etc.

In other words, the non-literalists spin by running away from the killing and genocides, realizing they are fundamentally incompatible with a benevolent God. The literalists double down and embrace the killing and genocides, and try to make it seem benevolent by spinning us on how depraved and evil people are, and how these actions were deserved. I think one of these approaches results in a much more warped and twisted worldview than the other.

Offline mram

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2011, 04:28:15 PM »
Old Bill Cosby once upon a time did a comedy routine about Noah and the ark... Kind of funny if any of you youngsters care to look it up and listen to it..  Every time I think of the story of the ark I think of Bill Cosby for some reason.. Maybe it's because I heard it when I was a little kid..  :D
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2011, 05:24:59 PM »
I can’t get excited about the OT folk tales. They are just stories, each country and culture has them. http://www.chlive.org/pbeck/eastlibrary/MYTHOLOGY.htm#EUROPEAN%20MYTHOLOGY That some people take them seriously, yet agree that folk tales from The Arabian Nights, Tajikistan, France, Scandinavia, etc., are just interesting stories, is quite amazing. They have many themes in common – the victory of good over evil, the trickster, the wise man, the great hero, the escape from poverty, the hope for the future, a lesson in behaviour, etc.

I suppose I should wonder what people thought about them at the time. Obviously talking donkeys, cats in boots, etc., were not believed, stories of the trickster were more than likely exaggerations and treated as such – the teller did not believe them, but told them as if he did and, in the absence of snopes.com, urban myths appeared. Stories of the superhero (SampsonWiki, Fionn mac CumhaillWiki, King ArthurWiki, HerculesWiki, etc) were just the Marvel Comics of their day. Having had success with one character, the story teller would invent more and more adventures staring the hero. Here we have the origins of the Jesus Myth.

Beyond the superman who could lift oxen and defeat lions, were the stories of the gods to enable the physically inexplicable to be explained. I have little doubt that there was a large and devastating flood at some time in the Middle East and that no one near the event would have survived to tell what exactly had exactly happened to cause it. So, it was obvious, the story would have to be that some god did it. http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Fi-Go/Floods.html

To draw a conclusion about the character of Yahweh from one of the many stories of inundation is to know the colour of the invisible unicorn. The story is ridiculous and so is its main character, but its just a folk tale.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Persephone

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2011, 05:39:04 PM »
To draw a conclusion about the character of Yahweh from one of the many stories of inundation is to know the colour of the invisible unicorn. The story is ridiculous and so is its main character, but its just a folk tale.

Telling us about a real god? Of course not.

It does, however, tell us a lot about the god they are worshiping[1], which is real to them. This in turn tells us a lot about the character of the people doing the worshiping.
 1. as a character in literature
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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2011, 07:15:14 PM »
But children should be brainwashed or they won't believe they have to buy a lot of crap toward the end of December for people who will never really appreciate it.. :o

Dude, you're killin' me. Months from now, people are going to be wondering why atheists refer to the religious indoctrination of children as "car-washingTM of Mram Enterprises".
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2011, 07:50:54 PM »
It does, however, tell us a lot about the god they are worshiping[1], which is real to them. This in turn tells us a lot about the character of the people doing the worshiping.
 1. as a character in literature
Interesting. Do you think that these people would destroy the world? Or think that anyone destroying the world and all animal life, for whatever reason, was a good idea?

Or do you think that they compartmentalise their ‘religion’ and are otherwise normal? i.e. don't apply these folk tales in real life.

“Yes God did that and it was entirely justified because He is good, but I would never do, or approve of, something like that even in the worst circumstances.”

Does it speak to all of them or just some?

So what does it tell us?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Persephone

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2011, 09:06:10 PM »
It does, however, tell us a lot about the god they are worshiping[1], which is real to them. This in turn tells us a lot about the character of the people doing the worshiping.
 1. as a character in literature
Interesting. Do you think that these people would destroy the world? Or think that anyone destroying the world and all animal life, for whatever reason, was a good idea?
I think it's a matter of how deep the disconnect is between their dedication to believing, and their trust in their own common sense.

Quote
Or do you think that they compartmentalise their ‘religion’ and are otherwise normal? i.e. don't apply these folk tales in real life.
Same thing again. I have known people who were otherwise very reasonable, very financially and socially successful people who truly believe in the god of the OT and take Noah's Ark quite literally. I have some of these people in my life right now!

If I were to ask any of them point blank over coffee, "Why do you think God thought this was okay? Would you do the same in a similar situation?" I am sure I could receive one of several different reactions. Off the top of my head I can imagine (1) belligerent denial (of the moral problem), or "God is God and what he did was acceptable because he works in mysterious ways"; (2) weak denial of the moral problem, or "God is God and what he did was acceptable because he works in mysterious ways" - but you can see the doubt on their faces; (3) confusion, or "I don't know why he did that. He just did."

As for whether or not they would do it if they were in God's place, I am sure the same variety could show up. I can easily imagine a believer saying that if God decided it was a good idea, then it must have been acceptable and therefore he would have done similarly. I suspect, though, that more often we'd see people dissociating on this issue because their common sense would be kicking in, but they wouldn't want to listen to it because that would require them to lose faith. And 'keeping faith' is something these people are deeply invested in and don't walk away from easily.

This would make an interesting experiment with the people in my life of whom I'm thinking. I'm very curious how they would react, but if I were a betting woman I'd feel pretty confident in my guess since I know them fairly well. I am sitting here imagining each of the reactions of about 10 different people I know who fit this description...  ;D

Quote
Does it speak to all of them or just some?
I should think that variety in human nature leads to variety in human reaction. But if they truly believe in the God of Noah's Ark--and they are firmly entrenched within and committed to the Life of Faith at all Costs mindset--that disconnect from their own common sense re: morality would be a huge issue.

I suspect that the more they've denied their "conscience" the right to be heard--in favor of Faith in God at All Cost--the greater the likelihood that they will insist that what God did was just and right and truly believe their own voice.

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Offline grant

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2011, 05:52:49 AM »
I can’t get excited about the OT folk tales. They are just stories, each country and culture has them. That some people take them seriously, yet agree that folk tales from The Arabian Nights, Tajikistan, France, Scandinavia, etc., are just interesting stories, is quite amazing. The story is ridiculous and so is its main character.

Editing mine but couldn't agree more. Ridiculous.
What if the hokey pokey is what its all about?

Offline gonegolfing

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2011, 07:41:34 AM »

Persephone:

Quote
I should think that variety in human nature leads to variety in human reaction. But if they truly believe in the God of Noah's Ark--and they are firmly entrenched within and committed to the Life of Faith at all Costs mindset--that disconnect from their own common sense re: morality would be a huge issue.

I suspect that the more they've denied their "conscience" the right to be heard--in favor of Faith in God at All Cost--the greater the likelihood that they will insist that what God did was just and right and truly believe their own voice.


This was a gigantic issue for me while a theist. The obvious and willful disconnect on my part was hard to cope with. The amount of mental gymnastics and contortions needed to keep this disconnect intact is astonishing, but emotions and desires coupled with faith are very powerful and they won the battle for many years.

The unneccessary and senseless pressure caused by such a harmful disconnect however became to great and finally my mind gave ;) Just as a tectonic plate finally gives after buckling under for so long. Thank goodness !

+1 Good Points  :D
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Offline velkyn

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2011, 09:00:29 AM »
To draw a conclusion about the character of Yahweh from one of the many stories of inundation is to know the colour of the invisible unicorn. The story is ridiculous and so is its main character, but its just a folk tale.
do you mean that one can't know the character of this particular god from the stories about it? 
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Offline String1248

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2011, 09:31:11 AM »
To draw a conclusion about the character of Yahweh from one of the many stories of inundation is to know the colour of the invisible unicorn. The story is ridiculous and so is its main character, but its just a folk tale.
According to geologist Robert Schoch, “Noah is but one tale in a worldwide collection of at least 500 flood tales, which are the most widespread of all ancient myths and therefore can be considered among the oldest” Schoch went on to observe: "Narratives of a massive inundation are found all over the world.... Stories of a great deluge are found on every inhabited continent and among a great many different language and culture groups”

Ancient civilizations such as (China, Babylonia, Wales, Russia, India, America, Hawaii, Scandinavia, Sumatra, Peru, and Polynesia) all have their own versions of a giant flood."

If cultures descended directly from the flood’s survivors, stories of this traumatic event ought to be both abundant and universal, having been passed down from generation to generation. Indeed, flood traditions are both abundant and universal. Many of these traditions are remarkably consistent, considering the relative isolation of the cultures, the length of time that has elapsed since the flood, and the human tendency to embellish, exaggerate, and distort stories over time. The Babylonian and biblical accounts of the flood appear to represent different retellings of an essentially identical flood tradition.

About 95% describe a global cataclysmic deluge, 88% tell of a favored family of humans saved from drowning to reestablish the human race after the deluge, 66% say the family was forewarned of the coming cataclysm, 66% blame the wickedness of man for the deluge, and 70% record a boat as being the means by which the chosen family (and animals) survived the flood. More than one third of these traditions mention birds being sent out from the boat.

Offline Noman Peopled

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2011, 09:41:38 AM »
According to geologist Robert Schoch, “Noah is but one tale in a worldwide collection of at least 500 flood tales, which are the most widespread of all ancient myths and therefore can be considered among the oldest”
I wonder why a geologist feels the need to delve into mythological similarities no athropologist would find surprising in the least.
"Deferinate" itself appears to be a new word... though I'm perfectly carmotic with it.
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Offline Dante

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2011, 09:48:21 AM »

Ancient civilizations such as (China, Babylonia, Wales, Russia, India, America, Hawaii, Scandinavia, Sumatra, Peru, and Polynesia) all have their own versions of a giant flood."

And right now, people along the Mississippi delta, as well as those in eastern Japan, have great flood stories to tell their children as well. Weird, huh?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline velkyn

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #50 on: May 19, 2011, 09:56:11 AM »
Wait, the son cuckolded him? Is that what that bizarre story is supposed to mean? According to the text he just saw Noah naked (after he passed out drunk) and didn't cover him up. The punishment DOES seem strangely harsh (not to mention misdirected) just for inadvertently catching a glimpse of Dad's willy...I figured it had something to do with not respecting or taking care of your parents... 
You can see the cuckhold theory here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ham_(son_of_Noah)#Curse_of_Canaan  I've also seen, when googling around, that some Christians think that Ham got some sexual thrill seeing his father naked  :o   It's also weird in that Noah didn't curse Ham, but only his son.

Quote
(And according to some Christians, and 19th century Mormons, it's the story of how we got black people!) 
Anyway, I was reading the story again, and there are other weird details, starting with something about human women fornicating with angels and giving birth to giants (Genesis 6). But it does clearly state that man was full of wickedness and continuous evil in his heart. So the Christian would say that those people exercised their free will in being wicked, and did nothing to be redeemed.
yep, they would.  However, the problem with this is that there is nothing to support free will in the bible.   :)  And that curse of Canaan not Ham would seem ot underline this.
According to geologist Robert Schoch, “Noah is but one tale in a worldwide collection of at least 500 flood tales, which are the most widespread of all ancient myths and therefore can be considered among the oldest” Schoch went on to observe: "Narratives of a massive inundation are found all over the world.... Stories of a great deluge are found on every inhabited continent and among a great many different language and culture groups” Ancient civilizations such as (China, Babylonia, Wales, Russia, India, America, Hawaii, Scandinavia, Sumatra, Peru, and Polynesia) all have their own versions of a giant flood."
Nice regurgitation of nonsense there, String.  funny how not all civilizations, like, oh, the Egyptians, mention a flood story.  It's sad that  Mr. Schoch, being a geologist, can't show one bit of evidence for this worldwide flood in the geological record.  I'm a geologist so I know exactly what one would look for in that record and darn, it's not there at all. 


Quote
If cultures descended directly from the flood’s survivors, stories of this traumatic event ought to be both abundant and universal, having been passed down from generation to generation. Indeed, flood traditions are both abundant and universal. Many of these traditions are remarkably consistent, considering the relative isolation of the cultures, the length of time that has elapsed since the flood, and the human tendency to embellish, exaggerate, and distort stories over time. The Babylonian and biblical accounts of the flood appear to represent different retellings of an essentially identical flood tradition.
Which it wasn't, see my examples above.  So more lies about this being "universal".  And you know why else flood stories could be wide spread, String?  Because civilizations have grown up around water sources which, suprise! often flood causes great destruction.  Very easy to add that to a myth.  And not so suprisingly, the Babylonian flood myth is older than the Jewish one and do you remember when the Israelites were taken to Babylon?  Yep, that's right the babylonian captivity would have exposed them to something that they didnt' have before but coopted into their own myths.   

Quote
About 95% describe a global cataclysmic deluge, 88% tell of a favored family of humans saved from drowning to reestablish the human race after the deluge, 66% say the family was forewarned of the coming cataclysm, 66% blame the wickedness of man for the deluge, and 70% record a boat as being the means by which the chosen family (and animals) survived the flood. More than one third of these traditions mention birds being sent out from the boat. [/size]
  Golly a myth that realized that you had to have a male and female to repopulate the earth?  Shocking!  Please do tell us how Noah got koalas, giant sloths, moas, etc, onto that boat.  Where was the food?  Even if you pureed the animals they still won't fit.  It's also amusing that belivers can't even agree on where this boat came to rest at. You'd think people could remember such details, but they can't even agree on where JC was buried and raised, supposedly the most important event in Christianity, so I guess how could you blame them? 

I do wonder, why don't you believe about the story of Deucalion and Phyrra who didn't even need a boat, just staying at the top of a mountain and then throwing stones behind them to create mankind and animals again.  It's just as valid as your myth, considering that they have no evidence to support them.  Or any one of these: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html
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Offline relativetruth

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2011, 10:07:33 AM »
Why did God not just create a horrible virus to only infect all those evil humans so that they all died lingering deaths comtemplating their evilness. The 'good' would have learnt the lesson by witnessing 'God's wrath' about what happens when you stray.

Why should the rest of the animal world need to suffer? After all they have no souls and do not know the difference between good and evil.

He could easily have created all 'good' life organisms with the appropriate DNA to resist this vicious virus.
He then does not need to invoke magic afterwards to relocate the species.
God(s) exist and are imaginary

Online Add Homonym

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2011, 11:01:09 AM »
Why did God not just create a horrible virus to only infect all those evil humans so.....

Why didn't he just create another planet, and tell Noah how to make a space ship?
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline relativetruth

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #53 on: May 19, 2011, 11:19:06 AM »
Why did God not just create a horrible virus to only infect all those evil humans so.....

Why didn't he just create another planet, and tell Noah how to make a space ship?

Why tell him how to make a space ship?
Why not just magically transport him and his family there?
The animals can be re-created anyway why should Noah have to preserve the species?
God(s) exist and are imaginary

Offline Persephone

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #54 on: May 19, 2011, 11:27:46 AM »
Why tell him how to make a space ship?
Why not just magically transport him and his family there?
The animals can be re-created anyway why should Noah have to preserve the species?

Oh, me likee. Think of all the fun God could have had with naming the story.

*Noah's Borg Cube 'o Fun

*Noah, Ripley, and Nostromo: A Love Story

*Captain Noah James T. Kirk and the U.S.S. Enterprise: Starring  Spock, Bones, and Scotty as his sons

*Noah and the Death Star: Bringing Destruction to a Location Near You
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 11:30:23 AM by Persephone »
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Leonard: Well, Einstein had a busy sex life.
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Offline Noman Peopled

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #55 on: May 19, 2011, 11:53:20 AM »
You forgot "Noahstromo".


I'm sorry, that was terrible.
"Deferinate" itself appears to be a new word... though I'm perfectly carmotic with it.
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Offline Persephone

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #56 on: May 19, 2011, 12:00:24 PM »
You forgot "Noahstromo".


I'm sorry, that was terrible.

Hot damn you're good.

Noahstromo. Hee hee.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 12:03:48 PM by Persephone »
Sheldon: Ever since you started having regular intercourse your mind has lost its edge. You should reflect on that.
Leonard: Well, Einstein had a busy sex life.
Sheldon: Yes, but he never unified gravity with the other forces. If he hadn't been such a hounddog we'd all have time machines.

Offline jedweber

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #57 on: May 19, 2011, 12:52:55 PM »
According to geologist Robert Schoch, “Noah is but one tale in a worldwide collection of at least 500 flood tales, which are the most widespread of all ancient myths and therefore can be considered among the oldest” Schoch went on to observe: "Narratives of a massive inundation are found all over the world.... Stories of a great deluge are found on every inhabited continent and among a great many different language and culture groups”


It's not controversial to note that there are many flood myths around the world. Does this Robert Schoch go on to claim that they are evidence for the historicity of a single global flood, in particular the flood of Noah? Or is that part your addition?

Robert Schoch's wikipedia entry doesn't mention flood claims, but it does list some other rather odd ideas he's associated with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Schoch

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If cultures descended directly from the flood’s survivors, stories of this traumatic event ought to be both abundant and universal, having been passed down from generation to generation. Indeed, flood traditions are both abundant and universal.

Since traumatic floods occur with relative frequency throughout most parts of the world, it's safe to say that we are all descended from "flood survivors," and we would expect to find memories of such events common to most cultures. The unsupported leap you make is in suggesting that a single worldwide flood of the kind described in the Bible was responsible.

If we look at the work on comparative mythology done by people like Joseph Campbell and others, we learn that there are MANY "mythological archetypes" which turn up repeatedly in cultures around the world, often with remarkable similarities. These include beliefs in solar deities, lunar deities, "trickster gods" and "mother goddesses," among others.  But I've yet to hear a Christian suggest that the widespread nature of these beliefs is evidence for their historicity!