Author Topic: A thought about Noah's Ark.....  (Read 3507 times)

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Offline Anfauglir

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A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« on: May 16, 2011, 08:11:43 AM »
Depending on how you read it, between Yahweh deciding to flood the world, and actually doing it, there were between 7 days and 100 years.  Probably lots more than 7: that was the time Noah had to load the ark itself, so construction would've begun a while before that.  A few months to a year, let's say, between Yahweh deciding "kill everything" and actually doing it.  Let's call it the time between P-day (when he made the plan) and D-Day (when he started the rains).

Here's the point: it presumes that Yahweh knew on P-Day that everyone who would be alive on P-Day (except Noah et al) would be evil and deserved to die.  It's that, I think, that gives the most issues with free will....and god's benevolence.

On free will.....once P-day had passed, nobody could make any other choice than to be bad, without cauding god to explode in a paradox.  There is even, perhaps, an argument to say that once god made his mind up, he CAUSED everyone to head towards evil from that point onwards.  The omniscience vs. free will argument comes up a lot, but its this period that hihglights it most strongly, I think.  Equally, once god decided they would be saved.....did Noah and crew have the free will to be able to sin?

On benevolence......But if we assume that men COULD still make a free choice....then does that not call god's benevolence into question?  If it were still possible for a sinner to be redeemed, then does not P-day make him evil himself?  In the gap between P-day and D-day, a man with free will could have turned to good (perhaps swayed by Noah's example).  But it was clear on P-Day that god had decided to save only Noah and his family - so everyone else, from that day on, was stuffed.  No matter how good they bacame in those few weeks and months, they were already doomed.

So to me, that period of time, above any other part of the Bible, highlights how horrific Yahweh actually is - he either damns people be setting the future, or damns people by not caring about their actions.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Persephone

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2011, 08:19:56 AM »
I couldn't agree more. It not only illustrates the most horrific human-god interaction in the bible, it is the point where the minds of children are hijacked.

Every Christian child is told the story of Noah's Ark. They are told, at the very least, that evil filled the world excepting one man and his family. God spared them, and brought destruction upon the rest in order to start anew.

Every. single. child. who is even the slightest bit inquisitive (and that's nearly all of them, excluding the most mentally disabled) has to come to grips with the notion that "God of the Bible is a loving God" is something they must accept, alongside the idea that he was capable of killing every person and every animal on earth except for a select few.

That is the biggest mind game there is in all of Christianity, right there. Children are being taken into Room 101Wiki and are tortured with their worst fears until they agree that 2 + 2 = 5.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2011, 08:20:03 AM »

On benevolence......But if we assume that men COULD still make a free choice....then does that not call god's benevolence into question?  If it were still possible for a sinner to be redeemed, then does not P-day make him evil himself?  In the gap between P-day and D-day, a man with free will could have turned to good (perhaps swayed by Noah's example).  But it was clear on P-Day that god had decided to save only Noah and his family - so everyone else, from that day on, was stuffed.  No matter how good they bacame in those few weeks and months, they were already doomed.


You're forgetting that the Christian concept of benevolence is a little different. By Christian standards he could still be benevolent because he may have had a good reason to still drown everyone. It could have had the future ramifications of making the earth a paradise eventually through an unknownd series of events.

"Mysterious Ways", your one-size-fits-all cop-out.
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Offline William

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2011, 08:34:04 AM »
I think the delay between God's decision on "P-day" to drown them all and the big wet on "D-day" must have been because God had accidentally misplaced the genetic code  :police:

Why else did He need Noah to bring breeders on board the ark for the human species and all other species which would otherwise become extinct in the flood?  :?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 08:44:09 AM by William »
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Offline velkyn

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2011, 09:12:37 AM »
^^^^^ another very good point.  Why need animals if God can just create more? 

There is nothing benevolent or loving about this god.  Not one instance in the bible is based on just wanting the best for those you care for.  It is all about obediance no matter what, based on a carrot/stick approach. 
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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2011, 09:15:16 AM »
Noah built up karma points for building an Ark. People who watched lost karma points for laughing at him.

I don't think any humans survived the flood. I think we evolved from apes that came out of the ark.

To keep the flood story alive, Christians have had to accept accelerated evolution as the animals radiated from the ark, and made their way back to Australia.

It's the only theory supported by the fossil record.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2011, 10:44:10 AM »
I think the delay between God's decision on "P-day" to drown them all and the big wet on "D-day" must have been because God had accidentally misplaced the genetic code  :police:

Why else did He need Noah to bring breeders on board the ark for the human species and all other species which would otherwise become extinct in the flood?  :?
NO SHIT he created the universe but cant remember how to recreate animals or humans? Is God retarded?
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Offline jedweber

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2011, 11:29:30 AM »
You know, if I had seen this thread when I was still a Christian, my reaction would have been "It's a freakin' STORY, guys!"  When you analyze it so literally, you're as bad as the fundies.

The idea that OT stories can be taken allegorically or metaphorically is not just some modern liberal fringe notion, it goes back at least as far as St. Augustine, and is the preferred (or at least a permitted) view by all the mainstream Christian churches (like the RCC), apart from the literalist fundies.

Granted, they're not always too clear on where history ends and allegory/metaphor/inspirational myth begins, but that's another issue...

Also, the moral of the story seems pretty repugnant any way you slice it, but Christians are good at spinning it into a tale of mercy and redemption rather than death and destruction...(I guess they're just "glass half full" kind of people...lol  ;D)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 11:32:37 AM by jedweber »

Offline velkyn

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2011, 11:42:33 AM »
You know, if I had seen this thread when I was still a Christian, my reaction would have been "It's a freakin' STORY, guys!"  When you analyze it so literally, you're as bad as the fundies.
  Yup, I would have likely too.  But then if someone said "It's a freakin' story, guys!" to the nonsense of the crucifiction, I would have gotten all upset.  But but, that part *has* to be true!!!!!! &)
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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2011, 12:22:57 PM »
The very concept of divine prophecy does violence to the concept of free will. According to the stories in the bible, the god could tell you that you're going to eat pizza next Tuesday and you will find that nothing you do, no amount of free will, will allow you to alter the fulfillment of that prophecy.

It also means that you're absolutely invulnerable until the fulfillment of the prophecy. You can't die until you eat pizza on Tuesday.

That's basically what happened with Jesus's prophecy that what-his-name would deny him three times. If only the guy realized he was invulnerable until his third denial, he might have been able to save the Jesus character! What an idiot!
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Offline mram

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2011, 12:41:23 PM »
It's kind of funny to me that a bunch of atheists would sit and debate the benevolence or not of a guy we don;'t even believe in..Did the imaginary god do this? No wait! He did that! He did it because.....he doesn't exist! I'm guilty of it too..
That's kind of like asking if I went outside and washed the car I don't have.. Well.. I have the cleanest spot of air in the whole world! And why did I was the car I don't have? The answer is obvious... I did it to kill anyone who doesn't believe I washed it!  If you don't believe I washed the car I don't have you'll die in the flood from the water I never used and might get a slight case of soap poisoning too..  &)

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Offline gonegolfing

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2011, 12:41:53 PM »
Quote
So to me, that period of time, above any other part of the Bible, highlights how horrific Yahweh actually is - he either damns people be setting the future, or damns people by not caring about their actions.


This is one of the worst, disgusting, and most laughable allegories in the babble.

Based on the story as presented, it would have been 1,656 years from Adam to the flood. We can somewhat safely speculate that hundreds of millions and perhaps even over a billion people would have existed on the planet at that time.

Not ONE other person was a believer ? Not ONE !?!? ...8 people that's it !?!? ..Gimmie a break !!

Jebus Cripes! at least 6 out of 10 people you meet today are some type of god idiot, and the jugheads that wrote this expect people to believe that only 8 were good enough to make it then !?
An utter joke if meant to be true  :D

And this isn't even to mention that it's virtually impossible to get a coherent moral meaning out of the allegory.

An utterly ugly failure as an allegorical teaching story. 

 
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Offline Persephone

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2011, 12:51:36 PM »
It's kind of funny to me that a bunch of atheists would sit and debate the benevolence or not of a guy we don;'t even believe in..Did the imaginary god do this? No wait! He did that! He did it because.....he doesn't exist! I'm guilty of it too..
That's kind of like asking if I went outside and washed the car I don't have.. Well.. I have the cleanest spot of air in the whole world! And why did I was the car I don't have? The answer is obvious... I did it to kill anyone who doesn't believe I washed it!  If you don't believe I washed the car I don't have you'll die in the flood from the water I never used and might get a slight case of soap poisoning too..  &)
;D

I didn't discuss it from that angle, though. I discussed this story as one of the first, most powerful tools used by believers to unhinge the minds of children.
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Offline mram

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2011, 01:06:05 PM »
It's kind of funny to me that a bunch of atheists would sit and debate the benevolence or not of a guy we don;'t even believe in..Did the imaginary god do this? No wait! He did that! He did it because.....he doesn't exist! I'm guilty of it too..
That's kind of like asking if I went outside and washed the car I don't have.. Well.. I have the cleanest spot of air in the whole world! And why did I was the car I don't have? The answer is obvious... I did it to kill anyone who doesn't believe I washed it!  If you don't believe I washed the car I don't have you'll die in the flood from the water I never used and might get a slight case of soap poisoning too..  &)
;D

I didn't discuss it from that angle, though. I discussed this story as one of the first, most powerful tools used by believers to unhinge the minds of children.
But children should be brainwashed or they won't believe they have to buy a lot of crap toward the end of December for people who will never really appreciate it.. :o
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2011, 08:09:20 PM »
An utterly ugly failure as an allegorical teaching story. 

It teaches us that some people can believe any shit. God just stuck it there for a laugh.
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Offline jedweber

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2011, 12:18:22 PM »
You know, if I had seen this thread when I was still a Christian, my reaction would have been "It's a freakin' STORY, guys!"  When you analyze it so literally, you're as bad as the fundies.
  Yup, I would have likely too.  But then if someone said "It's a freakin' story, guys!" to the nonsense of the crucifiction, I would have gotten all upset.  But but, that part *has* to be true!!!!!! &)

Well, Jesus' death and resurrection is non-negotiable. It has to be historically true because God's salvation plan depends on it. But nobody's salvation depends on the historicity of Noah, so nothing's really lost if it's taken as an allegorical myth.

Taking it allegorically is a big improvement, it would mean God didn't actually have to use mass death and destruction just to make a point.

I have no idea why fundies so desperately want this story to be literally true, since it's so unflattering to God. Not only does it contradict the notion that he is benevolent, it's at odds with him being all-knowing, since he basically changes his mind at the end and regrets what he did!  The details of the story (which Christians gloss over when they make it into a kid-friendly tale about saving animals and inventing the rainbow) make God a capricious and cruel bastard...

Offline velkyn

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2011, 12:28:29 PM »
I have no idea why fundies so desperately want this story to be literally true, since it's so unflattering to God. Not only does it contradict the notion that he is benevolent, it's at odds with him being all-knowing, since he basically changes his mind at the end and regrets what he did!  The details of the story (which Christians gloss over when they make it into a kid-friendly tale about saving animals and inventing the rainbow) make God a capricious and cruel bastard...

I think it's because many Christians don't want God to be benevolent at all.  They want the revenge on others who dare to tell them they are wrong, and god is the tool for that. They react like 3 year olds when they find out they aren't special.  They want a capricious god that is beholden to them as long as they suck up to it.  Who was it here that mentioned the whole "oriental despot" thing? 
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Offline Persephone

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2011, 12:32:42 PM »
I think it's because many Christians don't want God to be benevolent at all.  They want the revenge on others who dare to tell them they are wrong, and god is the tool for that. They react like 3 year olds when they find out they aren't special.  They want a capricious god that is beholden to them as long as they suck up to it.  Who was it here that mentioned the whole "oriental despot" thing?
You are so right. They'll say their god is loving, but really want they want is to be able to pat themselves on the back because they got things right and we didn't.

It's as immature as that boy in 5th grade whose self-regard was so low that he regularly resorted to putting everyone else down in order to make himself look good. Isn't it amazing how many millions of people never grow up beyond that?
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Offline mram

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2011, 01:01:23 PM »
I think it's because many Christians don't want God to be benevolent at all.  They want the revenge on others who dare to tell them they are wrong, and god is the tool for that. They react like 3 year olds when they find out they aren't special.  They want a capricious god that is beholden to them as long as they suck up to it.  Who was it here that mentioned the whole "oriental despot" thing?
You are so right. They'll say their god is loving, but really want they want is to be able to pat themselves on the back because they got things right and we didn't.

It's as immature as that boy in 5th grade whose self-regard was so low that he regularly resorted to putting everyone else down in order to make himself look good. Isn't it amazing how many millions of people never grow up beyond that?
You got that right.. go to any general ax me site such as yahoo answers, answerbag or any of them then drill into the religion section where atheists post and you'll find hundreds, if not thousands of posts that go something like: You fucking atheists are going to burn in hell and I'll be laughing at your sorry asses for ever!
They're expecting maybe some sort of atheist burning in hell viewing portal where they can gleefully watch us burning in torment? Nothing says a benevolent god like an eternal burning in hell viewing portal for the TrueChristiansTM  &)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 01:04:03 PM by mram »
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Offline Ambivalent

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2011, 01:02:45 PM »

That is the biggest mind game there is in all of Christianity, right there. Children are being taken into Room 101Wiki and are tortured with their worst fears until they agree that 2 + 2 = 5.

It's funny you mention that. I remember *exactly* when I began to doubt in the Biblical God. I was 9 years old, in 3rd grade, in a publicly founded Catholic elementary school. My teacher decided now was the time (in religion class), to teach us the story of Noah's ark. She showed up this cheap movie and we read short kid Bible stories of it. We then add to make an artsy scene from the story.

I recall speaking with my Dad about it.

"But how good a loving God kill everyone and everything?! What if he says we're evil and does it to us?!" See, the concept of murder greatly disturbed me as a child. It still does to this day.

But my Dad managed to relax me with this simple sentence;

"God did flood everything, but he made a promise to Noah to never ever do it again. It won't happen again. And He wouldn't break his promise. He loves us too much."

While I did relax, I still remember how unsettling I felt. And from what I recall, everyone took the Noah story literally - including my parents! It was like the Jesus story, it was one of the few 'true' ones. That's what I learned to believe.

And my parents aren't even religiously-crazy people. They're *almost* entirely normal aside from their 'pick-and-choose' Bible thing.  :-\ I remember trying to figure out where the signs of the great flood happened. I was told by someone it was the 'Grand Canyon'. xD

Offline mram

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2011, 01:09:28 PM »

That is the biggest mind game there is in all of Christianity, right there. Children are being taken into Room 101Wiki and are tortured with their worst fears until they agree that 2 + 2 = 5.

It's funny you mention that. I remember *exactly* when I began to doubt in the Biblical God. I was 9 years old, in 3rd grade, in a publicly founded Catholic elementary school. My teacher decided now was the time (in religion class), to teach us the story of Noah's ark. She showed up this cheap movie and we read short kid Bible stories of it. We then add to make an artsy scene from the story.

I recall speaking with my Dad about it.

"But how good a loving God kill everyone and everything?! What if he says we're evil and does it to us?!" See, the concept of murder greatly disturbed me as a child. It still does to this day.

But my Dad managed to relax me with this simple sentence;

"God did flood everything, but he made a promise to Noah to never ever do it again. It won't happen again. And He wouldn't break his promise. He loves us too much."

While I did relax, I still remember how unsettling I felt. And from what I recall, everyone took the Noah story literally - including my parents! It was like the Jesus story, it was one of the few 'true' ones. That's what I learned to believe.

And my parents aren't even religiously-crazy people. They're *almost* entirely normal aside from their 'pick-and-choose' Bible thing.  :-\ I remember trying to figure out where the signs of the great flood happened. I was told by someone it was the 'Grand Canyon'. xD
So nice of daddy to reassure you.. Did he mention that instead of drowning us this time he plans to BURN us instead? Many of us FOREVER!  :o  Better get some fire insurance..  &)
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Offline jedweber

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2011, 03:27:48 PM »
...my Dad managed to relax me with this simple sentence;

"God did flood everything, but he made a promise to Noah to never ever do it again. It won't happen again. And He wouldn't break his promise. He loves us too much."

Except that God left that big fat loophole in - he wouldn't destroy us BY FLOOD. Big whoop. Even as a kid I saw through that one right away - I remember wondering just how he would kill us the next time!

I also remember feeling more sorry for all the animals that died than the people. My children's picture book version of the story made it clear that it was their own fault - there was a picture of them maliciously jeering and mocking Noah and his family. I think the book even fudged the story and had Noah trying to warn them, and feeling bad when they wouldn't listen...

The story is so twisted that they had to stack the deck to justify God's behavior. The other humans had to be shown as so evil that they really deserved to be exterminated, and we're not supposed to wonder about the children and babies...

Offline mram

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2011, 03:58:24 PM »
It's only twisted because we're not True BelieversTM If we were then it would all be made perfectly clear why it's a load of shit..  &)
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2011, 04:01:42 PM »
Agree. Noah story is stupid and evil. A twofer.

What did the people and animals eat when they got off the ark? There are no plants left and lots of the animals are herbivores....You can't kill any of the animals 'cause you only have two of each.... You can't wait for food to be planted and grow, even if you have seeds..... Everyone's gotta get busy mating and replenish the earth but what do they eat?

And did all the sea creatures "drown", too?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2011, 06:32:49 PM »
Quote
"God did flood everything, but he made a promise to Noah to never ever do it again. It won't happen again. And He wouldn't break his promise. He loves us too much."


What kind of moral reasoning is that? That would suggest that it's okay if I murder someone as long as I promise never to do it again.

Wait, does this mean we all get one free murder?

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Offline mram

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2011, 07:52:20 PM »
Quote
"God did flood everything, but he made a promise to Noah to never ever do it again. It won't happen again. And He wouldn't break his promise. He loves us too much."


What kind of moral reasoning is that? That would suggest that it's okay if I murder someone as long as I promise never to do it again.

Wait, does this mean we all get one free murder?
You get a few hundred free murders depending in the last census..  :D In Gods case he got a few million freebies, but he promises to never do it again...with a flood.. Oh wait.. people are still dying in floods.. Lying bastard.. >:(
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 07:54:30 PM by mram »
Imagine gaining favor with "Darwin's"...kind of like praying, huh?

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Offline catlady

Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2011, 02:56:24 AM »
In Sunday School, when I was about 3 years old, Noah was portrayed as a kind old gentleman of god, a holy person with saintly qualities. The emphasis on the story were the animals--the cute fuzzy kitties and puppies, cute little turtles, frogs, and every manner of interesting animal to children-even lizards, snakes (!) and dinosaurs to keep the little boys interested in hearing the story.

Nothing was said about evil people--but just that "bad people drowned". We had the felt cutouts and the flannel board to further illustrate the story, with a different kid picking their favorite 2 animals to put in the ark. Then, there were the songs, too, and stupid rhymes to memorize this myth and indoctrinate us. However, it was all viewed as "cute" when all the little kids acted out the story in front of the church's congregation. I believe  Noah's ark is used as the "hook" to get children involved with xtian biblegod. Noah's ark is merely a "cute story from history". Ha Ha Ha Ha! Talk about brainwashing!
Devout believers are safeguarded in a high degree against the risks of certain neurotic illnesses; their acceptance of the universal neurosis spares them the task of constructing a personal one.
-Sigmund Freud

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2011, 04:24:37 AM »
Based on the story as presented, it would have been 1,656 years from Adam to the flood. We can somewhat safely speculate that hundreds of millions and perhaps even over a billion people would have existed on the planet at that time.

Not ONE other person was a believer ? Not ONE !?!? ...8 people that's it !?!? ..Gimmie a break !!

Good point.  Especially since Adam - a man who walked and talked with god himself - was alive for over 900 of those years.  Who could probably lead people to the closed gates of Eden and say "I used to live there".  People lived pretty close, of course, in the land of Nod just to the East.  Probably a nice day trip to peer through the gates at the pretty flowers.

The person I feel sorriest for is Methuselah...poor old Methuselah who lived right up to the flood.  Methuselah who would have watched Noah and his sons banging and hammering, and wondering "where's MY bedroom on this Ark?".

Interestingly, depending on how long construction actually took on the boat, certainly Methuselah and possibly his son Lamech (who died 5 years before the Flood) would have been alive on P-day.  So what does that mean?  Taking it as its written, Methuselah and Lamech were part of the problem - so evil they deserved to be drowned with all the other humans.  Which rather says something about the "wonderful" lineage of Adam, given that at least one generation was too evil to live.

I suppose you could argue that god "knew" Methuselah was due to die in the next few years, and held off the rains until he did.  But what sense is there in that?  Just means that evil rules the earth a bit longer, and increased the chance of Noah dropping from a heart-attack - he was 600 when he built the boat, after all.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Persephone

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Re: A thought about Noah's Ark.....
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2011, 05:19:19 AM »
I believe  Noah's ark is used as the "hook" to get children involved with xtian biblegod.

That's pretty much been my point this entire thread.
Sheldon: Ever since you started having regular intercourse your mind has lost its edge. You should reflect on that.
Leonard: Well, Einstein had a busy sex life.
Sheldon: Yes, but he never unified gravity with the other forces. If he hadn't been such a hounddog we'd all have time machines.