Freewill. Not an excuse.

[ungod]

god loves children. all children will be in heaven because ther is a point in all peoples lives where they are innocent of the atrocities of life. at a certain point (some where in the teens) they have they ability and proof to choose not to believe in god or not and thus choose their fate. i can elaborate at some other time.

Of course God loves all children. Especially those he set the two wild bears on.

And, let's not forget

" Happy shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock!" (Psalm 137:9

 

[grasszilla]

Hello. I came back. I cannot right now but i would like to continue this discussion soon. Give me a couple days if you care to continue. 

[plethora]

grasszilla ... I would like to have your point by point response to my earlier post seeing as I took the time to write it:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,18847.msg449619.html#msg449619

[grasszilla]

Plethora i am not able to quote now so i will come back to it later. I wanted to say in response to someone that god is a god of love but he is also a just god. He cant allow sin and wickedness to go unpunished. Sodom and gomorrah is an example of sin and moral abandonment. So are the rest of the conquests made joshua and also the state of the world directly before the flood. On another note: yes, women and child were killed and there are reasons. I can think of at least one. This isnt the most polished way to say it, but when you have weeds in your yard you remove them and they die. But you also have to remove the roots (children) for it to really be gone for good. God said to purge the evil from among you and also be holy because i am holy, and the people of israel were to live and populate that land so they removed the weeds.

[ungod]

grasszilla ... I would like to have your point by point response to my earlier post seeing as I took the time to write it:

Plethora i am not able to quote now so i will come back to it later.

TRANSLATION: I can't refute any of your points.  So, instead, I'll just offer up this bullcrap sermon -

I wanted to say in response to someone that god is a god of love but he is also a just god. He cant allow sin and wickedness to go unpunished. Sodom and gomorrah is an example of sin and moral abandonment. So are the rest of the conquests made joshua and also the state of the world directly before the flood. On another note: yes, women and child were killed and there are reasons. I can think of at least one. This isnt the most polished way to say it, but when you have weeds in your yard you remove them and they die. But you also have to remove the roots (children) for it to really be gone for good. God said to purge the evil from among you and also be holy because i am holy, and the people of israel were to live and populate that land so they removed the weeds.

[One Above All]

Plethora i am not able to quote now so i will come back to it later.

TRANSLATION: I can't refute any of your points.  So, instead, I'll just offer up this bullcrap sermon -

grasszilla was posting that from his cellphone. There's no reason to doubt his honesty on that point. You're right about the sermon though.

[velkyn]

Plethora i am not able to quote now so i will come back to it later. I wanted to say in response to someone that god is a god of love but he is also a just god. He cant allow sin and wickedness to go unpunished. Sodom and gomorrah is an example of sin and moral abandonment. So are the rest of the conquests made joshua and also the state of the world directly before the flood. On another note: yes, women and child were killed and there are reasons. I can think of at least one. This isnt the most polished way to say it, but when you have weeds in your yard you remove them and they die. But you also have to remove the roots (children) for it to really be gone for good. God said to purge the evil from among you and also be holy because i am holy, and the people of israel were to live and populate that land so they removed the weeds.

We never see that your god is just.  Per your own bible, this god intentionally makes sure that some people will never be able to “accept” him and he damns them for what he has made them unable to do.  Your god killed a man who dared to try to keep his magic box upright.  You god says that it will punish children for the acts of the parents (and why yes, it does contradict this, so much for your eternal truth from your god).  Your god forced his will on a man so he could show off and killed many to also show off, people who had no choice in the matter. If one believes in original sin, this is more evidence that your god is unjust, punishing people for the actions of two, the actions that this god knew they would do and provided all of the means for the act to occur.  Poor god, either intended for the snake to be there and for humanity to fall or was too stupid to realize what would happen.   

In Soddom and Gomorrah, we have a city that is supposedly so very sinful, but oh this god’s man in the city offers his daughters to a supposedly rapacious crowd.  What a good god there to approve of this act!  It’s also nice to see that you think that anyone who doesn’t worship your god should be killed, even the children.  How good of you, grasszilla, since you approve of genocide.  Now, I’m going to guess that you’ll whine that you don’t approve of genocide but you have no choice since that’s what your god wants.  Well, grasszilla, that makes your argument end up as “might equals right”, and shows your religion is really only based on fear and greed.  How disgusting, at least other religions aren’t quite so primitive and pathetic as yours.

[Hatter23]

go on grasszilla, so far the only thing you used to try to refute my point is the sect specific, non-biblical age of accountability...which still boil down to one second before said age or one second after makes all the difference in your mythology approving eternal torture.

[plethora]

Plethora i am not able to quote now so i will come back to it later.

Until such time as you do, I will retain my opinion that you're full of crap.

[ungod]

Plethora i am not able to quote now so i will come back to it later.

TRANSLATION: I can't refute any of your points.  So, instead, I'll just offer up this bullcrap sermon -

grasszilla was posting that from his cellphone. There's no reason to doubt his honesty on that point. You're right about the sermon though.

Time will tell - we'll see if the refutation shows up, or just evasion.

 

[grasszilla]

not gonna answer all of them now but i do wanna answer this one

4) You say human nature is sinful. Well if you believe that god created us and that he is omniscient (and he makes the rules), then he is directly responsible for us being this way. He created us and knew full well in advance that we would break his rules. Why would he punish his creation for doing exactly what he knew it would do?

he knew we could break the rules. GOD knows everything anyone will do or has done, the exception being a and e of course. the way i see it, based on everything that has happened since existence started and everything any thing has been done or has happened is how GOD knows exactly what will happen based on the individual and their thought process. and even if the way i explained it is incorrect, it doesn't mean that he knew they would do that or he would'nt have made them. oh and another thing, without the ability to choose we are baisically robots. i mean, if i asked you what you thought should i wear today, a red toga or a blue one would you be able to tell me?

[plethora]

not gonna answer all of them now but i do wanna answer this one

4) You say human nature is sinful. Well if you believe that god created us and that he is omniscient (and he makes the rules), then he is directly responsible for us being this way. He created us and knew full well in advance that we would break his rules. Why would he punish his creation for doing exactly what he knew it would do?

he knew we could break the rules. GOD knows everything anyone will do or has done, the exception being a and e of course. the way i see it, based on everything that has happened since existence started and everything any thing has been done or has happened is how GOD knows exactly what will happen based on the individual and their thought process. and even if the way i explained it is incorrect, it doesn't mean that he knew they would do that or he would'nt have made them.

So god knows everything except the choices we're going to make. In other words, he's not omniscient. Which puts you ad odds with the vast majority of christians.

You're trying desperately to force the concept of the christian god compatible with free will and the existence of evil. You simply can't have your cake and eat it too.

oh and another thing, without the ability to choose we are baisically robots. i mean, if i asked you what you thought should i wear today, a red toga or a blue one would you be able to tell me?

Of course I'd be able to tell you... I chose the blue toga. There.

The question is, did I have free will when I chose the blue toga? I don't think so, as I am acting according to my brain configuration, desires and preferences which I did not get to chose.

Can you make a choice to prefer X over Y?

I prefer vanilla to chocolate. Can I chose to prefer chocolate over vanilla? Nope... the same way I prefer blue over red (I might advise you against using a toga though ... ).

[Eaten by Bears]

Plethora i am not able to quote now so i will come back to it later. I wanted to say in response to someone that god is a god of love but he is also a just god. He cant allow sin and wickedness to go unpunished. Sodom and gomorrah is an example of sin and moral abandonment. So are the rest of the conquests made joshua and also the state of the world directly before the flood. On another note: yes, women and child were killed and there are reasons. I can think of at least one. This isnt the most polished way to say it, but when you have weeds in your yard you remove them and they die. But you also have to remove the roots (children) for it to really be gone for good. God said to purge the evil from among you and also be holy because i am holy, and the people of israel were to live and populate that land so they removed the weeds.

Awesome way to justify the murder of children there. I hope you're pleased with yourself.

[dloubet]

grasszilla wrote:

the way i see it, based on everything that has happened since existence started and everything any thing has been done or has happened is how GOD knows exactly what will happen based on the individual and their thought process.

Congratulations, you've just described determinism.

[ungod]

oh and another thing, without the ability to choose we are baisically robots.

If only the bad choices were eliminated, but we had plenty of good choices, how does that make us robots?

[rockv12]

Hatter23, your story is flawed in many regards.  The girl is going to heaven.  If you understood Scripture you would understand that God does NOT send little kids to eternal hellfire.  Eternal hellfire is ALSO not Biblical. 

[Azdgari]

Anything is Biblical if you decide to read that meaning into the Bible.  Even the stuff that you believe.

[Hatter23]

Hatter23, your story is flawed in many regards.  The girl is going to heaven.  If you understood Scripture you would understand that God does NOT send little kids to eternal hellfire.  Eternal hellfire is ALSO not Biblical.

Ahh, your decoder ring is different than all those other Christians, you know the vast majority of them. But your OneTrue brand of Christianity is different. And how are we to test that it is correct?

[rockv12]

Hatter23, your story is flawed in many regards.  The girl is going to heaven.  If you understood Scripture you would understand that God does NOT send little kids to eternal hellfire.  Eternal hellfire is ALSO not Biblical.

Ahh, your decoder ring is different than all those other Christians, you know the vast majority of them. But your OneTrue brand of Christianity is different. And how are we to test that it is correct?

How is it different?  Christians who study the Bible know that little kids are below the age of reason and their brains haven't developed enough to understand salvation, etc.  Ask a neurologist or psychologist when a child's brain is developed enough to understand abstract reasoning. 

Eternal hellfire is NOT Scriptural.  The wages of sin is death.  NOT eternal burning in a lake of fire.  Do you want me to really go into it?  Cuz it takes a while.

[Aaron123]

How is it different?  Christians who study the Bible know that little kids are below the age of reason and their brains haven't developed enough to understand salvation, etc.  Ask a neurologist or psychologist when a child's brain is developed enough to understand abstract reasoning. 

So... what is this "age of reason", and where is it mentioned in the bible?

Eternal hellfire is NOT Scriptural.  The wages of sin is death.  NOT eternal burning in a lake of fire.  Do you want me to really go into it?  Cuz it takes a while.

So, millions of christians are wrong, and you're right?  Care to explain then, why they all got it wrong, and how you happen to be right? 

[ungod]

Eternal hellfire is NOT Scriptural.  The wages of sin is death.  NOT eternal burning in a lake of fire.  Do you want me to really go into it?  Cuz it takes a while.

What Bible are you reading?

Matthew 13:42: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Matt 25:41: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Mark 9:43-48: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched."

Luke 16:24: "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

Revelation 20:13-15: "...hell delivered up the dead which were in them...And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Revelation 21:8: "But the fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hel_bibl.htm

Isn't lying a sin?

[ungod]

Christians who study the Bible know that little kids are below the age of reason and their brains haven't developed enough to understand salvation, etc.  Ask a neurologist or psychologist when a child's brain is developed enough to understand abstract reasoning. 

And yet God punishes children with diabetes, leukemia, polio, leprosy, measles, chicken pox, cancer, and all the others in the gamut of childhood diseases. What a kind, loving father! Let's all kneel in thanks and worship!

Here's a prophecy - you'll tell us God works in mysterious ways beyond our understanding, and it's all for the ultimate good!

[Hatter23]

How is it different?  Christians who study the Bible know that little kids are below the age of reason and their brains haven't developed enough to understand salvation, etc.  Ask a neurologist or psychologist when a child's brain is developed enough to understand abstract reasoning. 

Eternal hellfire is NOT Scriptural.  The wages of sin is death.  NOT eternal burning in a lake of fire.  Do you want me to really go into it?  Cuz it takes a while.

Well I was going to bring up all the problems with this post, but my peers seem to have the bases covered, please see the responses, and see if any of them can pierce through your narrow mystical paradigm.

[gonegolfing]

How is it different?  Christians who study the Bible know that little kids are below the age of reason and their brains haven't developed enough to understand salvation, etc.  Ask a neurologist or psychologist when a child's brain is developed enough to understand abstract reasoning. 

Then why teach them it ? Why in the fuck would you teach a child something they cannot understand ! ? Why the sickening lust in religion for the minds of children if those children can't grasp what it is that they're being told ?

Eternal hellfire is NOT Scriptural.  The wages of sin is death.  NOT eternal burning in a lake of fire.  Do you want me to really go into it?   Cuz it takes a while.

No we don't. We're all fully aware of the meek and mild carpenter's threats with hell doctrine so don't waste your time.

Answer my question about the kids though 

[Hatter23]

Anyone who has studied the Bible, really?

How many millions believe in original sin?
How many millions have their children go to confession?
How many hundreds of millions believe in hell as torture?
Where is this magic age mentioned in the Bible(written long before Neurology would be even dreamed of)?
And if there is one, then one second before it versus one second after it determines her eternal fate?

Are you really that conceited and naive?

[rockv12]

How is it different?  Christians who study the Bible know that little kids are below the age of reason and their brains haven't developed enough to understand salvation, etc.  Ask a neurologist or psychologist when a child's brain is developed enough to understand abstract reasoning. 

Then why teach them it ? Why in the fuck would you teach a child something they cannot understand ! ? Why the sickening lust in religion for the minds of children if those children can't grasp what it is that they're being told ?

You teach them what you believe.  You can't start teaching a child language at the age of 12.  Am I seriously having to explain this?

Children can understand things, that's not what I said.  But to make a conscious decision about salvation and becoming a Christian, takes an abstract thought and reasoning.  We CAN'T be the judge of who is saved and who isn't, that's God's job.  Maybe I should have pointed that out more clearly.  But it seems, based on what we perceive, that a little kid doesn't fully grasp the concept to make an individual choice.  That's why it's silly to baptize a 2 year old, because they haven't developed enough to understand what they are doing.  God judges the heart and knows when a person fully understands what they are doing.  Do we know the age of reason?  No.  God does.  But a child dying in a fire at 3 or 4 years old and going to hell does NOT fit the God character that we know, now does it?  But a grown man who has willfully rejected God and knowingly decided to go against God, then when he dies, he does NOT get to go to heaven. 

[rockv12]

Anyone who has studied the Bible, really?

How many millions believe in original sin?
How many millions have their children go to confession?
How many hundreds of millions believe in hell as torture?
Where is this magic age mentioned in the Bible(written long before Neurology would be even dreamed of)?
And if there is one, then one second before it versus one second after it determines her eternal fate?

Are you really that conceited and naive?

Well, you can't expect every person to be 100% correct in their doctrine, can you?  There are many things "Christians" do that I don't believe they should. 

Confession as Catholics do is NOT Biblical.

You can't just say, "Hell is eternal punishment in the lake of fire!" without really studying Scripture.  You can't take people's word for the TRUTH without actually examining if it's true or not.  I don't see Uncle Joe suffering in a lake of fire for eternity as a just punishment for not accepting God.  Does this seem like a think God would do?  No.  It's kinda silly to think of yourself sitting in heaven after a trillion years and still be thinking of Uncle Joe screaming in pain down in hell, doesn't it?  Now where in Scripture does it say that hell is eternal torture of burning flesh?

[Aaron123]

Children can understand things, that's not what I said.  But to make a conscious decision about salvation and becoming a Christian, takes an abstract thought and reasoning.  We CAN'T be the judge of who is saved and who isn't, that's God's job.  Maybe I should have pointed that out more clearly.  But it seems, based on what we perceive, that a little kid doesn't fully grasp the concept to make an individual choice.  That's why it's silly to baptize a 2 year old, because they haven't developed enough to understand what they are doing.  God judges the heart and knows when a person fully understands what they are doing.  Do we know the age of reason?  No.  God does.  But a child dying in a fire at 3 or 4 years old and going to hell does NOT fit the God character that we know, now does it?

So those millions of christians that baptize their babies--they're just wrong?  Likewise, those who claim that "Jesus is the ONLY way into heaven", they're wrong too?  You don't have to follow Jesus to get into heaven, you can also die young (so why protest abortion, then?).

If christians can't get their theology straight among themselves, how do you expect the rest of us to?

But a grown man who has willfully rejected God and knowingly decided to go against God, then when he dies, he does NOT get to go to heaven.

Well, for once, I agree.  But not for the same reasons you're thinking.  Your god doesn't exist, thus, there is no heaven or hell.   When we die, we will almost certainly cease to exist.

[Hatter23]

Well, you can't expect every person to be 100% correct in their doctrine, can you?

No, in fact I expect everyone to be 100% incorrect in their doctrine when they use a mythological book cobbled together by bronze age goat herders that contradicts itself multiple places as their guide to reality

 There are many things "Christians" do that I don't believe they should. 

Confession as Catholics do is NOT Biblical.

You can't just say, "Hell is eternal punishment in the lake of fire!" without really studying Scripture.  You can't take people's word for the TRUTH without actually examining if it's true or not.  I don't see Uncle Joe suffering in a lake of fire for eternity as a just punishment for not accepting God.  Does this seem like a think God would do?  No.  It's kinda silly to think of yourself sitting in heaven after a trillion years and still be thinking of Uncle Joe screaming in pain down in hell, doesn't it?  Now where in Scripture does it say that hell is eternal torture of burning flesh?

But your OneTrue brand of Christianity is different. And how are we to test that it is correct? Heck why limit it to Christianity, what about all those other brands of afterlife insurance, I mean religions out there?