Author Topic: Freewill. Not an excuse.  (Read 13486 times)

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2011, 11:07:29 AM »
Quote
Yes, and despite the insult, the reasoning still stands. If I said "Hey you fucking moron, 2 +2 equals 4"  The insult would in no way render that statement incorrect.

Instead of having a logical conversation you guys start using foul language. How not nice. All I got to say is that I'm not offended by any of that.

Stay cool, we'll talk later. I'll let u cool off a bit.

The insults come and go, Voz (just like in life), but we ARE having a logical conversation, you OTOH, are just sticking to words others have told you without ever questioning them or researching them. That's what "logic" is.

Tell me how Muslims are wrong and you are right.


I only used the profanity as an example of why insults have nothing to do with the validity, or lack of validity of a statement....yet he uses this as an exuse to go off in a huff. I did not even use the profanity against him, only in a theoretical manner.

Not very logical of him.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline DarqueStarr

Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2011, 01:31:43 AM »
Very interesting story there. Let me ask you then... Do u know everything about this girl? Do u know completely 100% what were her feelings and emotions and what she thought and said during the time in the camp? Do u posses all the knowledge of the world, including this girl's relationships with others and her own personal beliefs? It would be wrong to make a total absolute conclusion that God doesn't exist just based on the evidence of what YOU know from outside sources. Unless u knew her personally, then I apologize..

It was an example, a hypothetical situation similar to things that actually occured in the deathcamps. Your questions are irrelavent. Assume everything I said was correct, and apply your theology. If you do so, everything I said stands as accurate.

Were their four year old children killed in the deathcamps? Yes
Did they generally observe Judiasm as instructed to by their parents? Yes
Did they have freewill to not inhale the gas? No
Did they have freewill not to be incinerated? No
According to your mythology, Christianity, Could god have preformed actions to prevent this? Yes
According to your mythology, Christianity, Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? Yes

You attempt to obsfucate those clear facts with bringing up irrelavent points.

According to Jewish and Christian theology, you are both wrong. Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? NO!

At 4 years of age, she has not yet reached the age of accountability.  She does not have the ability to choose, by freewill, right or wrong. This innocent child in your hypothetical situation is not doomed to an eternity of torture but is instead an eternal child of God.

"...my work, which I've done for a long time, was not pursued in order to gain the praise I now enjoy...but chiefly from a craving after knowledge which I notice resides in me more than in most other men..." *Antony van Leeuwenhoek

"I can't prove this is true, but you can't prove it itsn't"  -SW

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #60 on: May 19, 2011, 05:15:53 AM »
Does she get to watch her parents roast in hell forever while she cuddles with angels?
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline jetson

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #61 on: May 19, 2011, 06:25:30 AM »
And here it is folks, Darquestarr is right, and everyone else is wrong!

Never mind how Darquestarr knows this little fact.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #62 on: May 19, 2011, 08:10:11 AM »
Very interesting story there. Let me ask you then... Do u know everything about this girl? Do u know completely 100% what were her feelings and emotions and what she thought and said during the time in the camp? Do u posses all the knowledge of the world, including this girl's relationships with others and her own personal beliefs? It would be wrong to make a total absolute conclusion that God doesn't exist just based on the evidence of what YOU know from outside sources. Unless u knew her personally, then I apologize..

It was an example, a hypothetical situation similar to things that actually occured in the deathcamps. Your questions are irrelavent. Assume everything I said was correct, and apply your theology. If you do so, everything I said stands as accurate.

Were their four year old children killed in the deathcamps? Yes
Did they generally observe Judiasm as instructed to by their parents? Yes
Did they have freewill to not inhale the gas? No
Did they have freewill not to be incinerated? No
According to your mythology, Christianity, Could god have preformed actions to prevent this? Yes
According to your mythology, Christianity, Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? Yes

You attempt to obsfucate those clear facts with bringing up irrelavent points.

According to Jewish and Christian theology, you are both wrong. Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? NO!

At 4 years of age, she has not yet reached the age of accountability.  She does not have the ability to choose, by freewill, right or wrong. This innocent child in your hypothetical situation is not doomed to an eternity of torture but is instead an eternal child of God.

First of all Jewish mythology is not part of this, it is irrelevant. Age of accountability sounds like something limited to your sect of Christianity, which of course you veiw as the "One True" interpretation. Second, so if this happed one second before her "age of accountabilty" all would be ok, but one second later an eternity of hell.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #63 on: May 19, 2011, 09:08:39 AM »
According to Jewish and Christian theology, you are both wrong. Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? NO!

At 4 years of age, she has not yet reached the age of accountability.  She does not have the ability to choose, by freewill, right or wrong. This innocent child in your hypothetical situation is not doomed to an eternity of torture but is instead an eternal child of God.

and one more Christian who wants to ignore their bible's inconvenient parts.  Just hilarious.  ;D There is nothing, absolutely nothing in the bible that says anyone goes to "heaven" without consciously accepting JC.  You don't like that so you ignore it.  And actually, nothing is said about anyone but the 144,000 jewish virgins/eunuchs going to heaven *after* JC returns and everyone else going to the "city of heaven on earth" since they didn't get the grand prize. 

Please do show us where there is anything about the "age of accountablity" mentioned in the bible regarding this or even what this age actually is.  and if God was so concerned about children not being responsible for their actions or their parents actions, why did he kill so many of them in the OT?  We have the nonsensical Flood, the incident where some of the Israelites rebelled and *all* of them, including children, were killed, same with the killing of multitudes of children of enemy tribes. 
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Offline jetson

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #64 on: May 19, 2011, 07:38:09 PM »


Please do show us where there is anything about the "age of accountablity" mentioned in the bible regarding this or even what this age actually is.  and if God was so concerned about children not being responsible for their actions or their parents actions, why did he kill so many of them in the OT?  We have the nonsensical Flood, the incident where some of the Israelites rebelled and *all* of them, including children, were killed, same with the killing of multitudes of children of enemy tribes.

I'm sure it can be proven because someone made it up.  Thus, it must be true.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #65 on: May 20, 2011, 08:41:02 AM »
^^^^ heh :)  I also forgot to mention that lovely "massacre of the innocents" in the NT. Always a good one.
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Offline DarqueStarr

Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #66 on: May 21, 2011, 04:42:34 AM »
 8)
 >:( I just spent the last 2.5 hours writing a dissertation in response to your replies, but God must not have liked it because when I went to preview it before posting, I had to re-sign in and I ended up losing it...so...here's the quick version...

Ambassador Pony - I don't know, what do you think? In my opinion, no, because that would be a form of torture in and of itself ....

Jetson   &) - I didn't say it, you did; and I never stated that it was a fact...

Hatter23 - Jewish THEOLOGY (why is that so hard for you) is relevant because of your second question "Did they generally observe Judeism as instructed to by their parents? " Yes, they did, making Jewish theology relevant ... Actually, I only recently learned about the term "Age of accountability" about a year ago, during of all things a Christian Bible Study ( :o Imagine that!) ... Yes, I do view MY interpretation as the "One True" interpretation for ME!  You accept it? Fine. You don't? Fine. I don't care ... Finally, one second before or one second after? now that's irrelevant; refer back to your original question....   >:( and please don't presume to know me from other Christians, you don't!

Velkyn - same goes for you, don't presume to know me from other Christians, you don't either...I do NOT ignore the bible's inconvenient parts. I am currently studying the most violent book in the Old Testament. Do I like it? No! Do I ignore it? No. But I will accept it and learn from it! ... and you are right in that the Bible states that no one comes to Father but through the Son; but I'm not the one who doesn't like that or who ignores it - that would be you ... and unlike you, I don't presume to know everything therefore the only thing I know about the virgins is that it is in Revelation ... Yes, I could show you where the Bible, OT and NT (as well as religions and cultures)  indirectly refers to an "age of accountability" but the question is why should I?   It's the Bible - you don't accept it or give it any credibility...I answered the question according to my theology and to my satisfaction, so why should i waste my hard work on you? ... sorry I just don't see the point, if you're not going to believe it anyway.  Maybe I will, Maybe I won't...I just don't know.    8)

I do know that it's not going to happen tonight/day...cause I'm going to bed!  Good Night!


Well?....
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 04:57:10 AM by DarqueStarr »
"...my work, which I've done for a long time, was not pursued in order to gain the praise I now enjoy...but chiefly from a craving after knowledge which I notice resides in me more than in most other men..." *Antony van Leeuwenhoek

"I can't prove this is true, but you can't prove it itsn't"  -SW

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #67 on: May 21, 2011, 06:22:08 AM »
Ambassador Pony - I don't know, what do you think? In my opinion, no, because that would be a form of torture in and of itself ....

You're right. Now, think it through to the logical conclusion. How could it in any such circumstance not be torture (while remaining consistent with the relevant Christian dogma)?

edit: sperlin' / addition
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 04:39:50 PM by Ambassador Pony »
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline jetson

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #68 on: May 21, 2011, 08:13:06 AM »

Quote from: DarqueStarr
Jetson    - I didn't say it, you did; and I never stated that it was a fact...

This is what you said (my bold):

Quote from: DarqueStarr
According to Jewish and Christian theology, you are both wrong. Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? NO!

At 4 years of age, she has not yet reached the age of accountability.  She does not have the ability to choose, by freewill, right or wrong. This innocent child in your hypothetical situation is not doomed to an eternity of torture but is instead an eternal child of God.

My reply stands, as you are clearly making unsubstantiated claims.  And nowhere did you state this was just your opinion.  Although, leaving out facts and evidence guarantees it is just opinion...

Offline Bagheera

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #69 on: May 22, 2011, 04:01:37 AM »
Hatter23 - Jewish THEOLOGY (why is that so hard for you) is relevant because of your second question "Did they generally observe Judeism as instructed to by their parents? " Yes, they did, making Jewish theology relevant ... Actually, I only recently learned about the term "Age of accountability" about a year ago, during of all things a Christian Bible Study ( :o Imagine that!) ... Yes, I do view MY interpretation as the "One True" interpretation for ME!  You accept it? Fine. You don't? Fine. I don't care ... Finally, one second before or one second after? now that's irrelevant; refer back to your original question....   >:( and please don't presume to know me from other Christians, you don't!

Interesting. So, according to you, Jewish people are bound by the Christian doctrine even though their disposition is determined by Jewish theology?

I ask only because you pointed out that the child being raised a Jew is relevant, yet also claim that the age of accountability in your Christian doctrine, which is the one true interpretation, is also relevant. So . . . both are right? Jews can go to heaven, even though the only way to heaven is through acceptance of Christ, but you don't have to accept Christ if you're under the AoA?

Could you cite some references to back up all these positions? I am curious to know which passages support theses seemingly contradictory statements.

Offline Grogs

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #70 on: May 22, 2011, 12:08:57 PM »
8)
 >:( I just spent the last 2.5 hours writing a dissertation in response to your replies, but God must not have liked it because when I went to preview it before posting, I had to re-sign in and I ended up losing it...so...here's the quick version...

Mine took me about a year to write, so it could have been worse. :P Seriously though, when I start spending crazy amounts of time on a single post, I'll copy and paste it into Notepad and save it on the desktop from time to time. It's something I've learned to do from bad experiences.


Velkyn - same goes for you, don't presume to know me from other Christians, you don't either...I do NOT ignore the bible's inconvenient parts. I am currently studying the most violent book in the Old Testament. Do I like it? No! Do I ignore it? No. But I will accept it and learn from it!

See, that's the thing, we don't ignore the Bible. When we read books like that (Joshua per chance?) we come to the conclusion that the actions being described are inconsistent with an omnipotent, omnibenevolent being and dismiss them as fables. When believers read those verses, they tend to go in with the presupposition that God is good, so they'll perform any mental gymnastics that are necessary to give him a free pass for any actions that seem wrong.

.Yes, I could show you where the Bible, OT and NT (as well as religions and cultures)  indirectly refers to an "age of accountability" but the question is why should I?   It's the Bible - you don't accept it or give it any credibility...I answered the question according to my theology and to my satisfaction, so why should i waste my hard work on you? ... sorry I just don't see the point, if you're not going to believe it anyway.  Maybe I will, Maybe I won't...I just don't know.    8)

Note that bolded part above. We tend to equate things that have to be "indirectly inferred" with SPAG. Again, start with a presupposition about God - God is just. We know that sending a child to hell just because they're too young to accept Jesus wouldn't be just, so therefore, the Bible clearly  &) shows that children below a certain age get a free pass.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #71 on: May 22, 2011, 03:27:44 PM »
Yes, I could show you where the Bible, OT and NT (as well as religions and cultures)  indirectly refers to an "age of accountability" but the question is why should I?   
It's the "indirectly refers" bit that we see regularly from amateur apologists. This is where the Bible "indirectly refers" to computers, bacteria, nuclear fission, immunology, semi-conductors and a whole host of things of which God should have had knowledge but Bronze Age peasants inspired by Him strangely never mentioned.
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #72 on: May 22, 2011, 09:00:10 PM »
Yes, I could show you where the Bible, OT and NT (as well as religions and cultures)  indirectly refers to an "age of accountability" but the question is why should I?   
It's the "indirectly refers" bit that we see regularly from amateur apologists. This is where the Bible "indirectly refers" to computers, bacteria, nuclear fission, immunology, semi-conductors and a whole host of things of which God should have had knowledge but Bronze Age peasants inspired by Him strangely never mentioned.

Indirectly pretty much mean "Magic Decoder Ring pulling overtime"
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #73 on: May 22, 2011, 09:09:05 PM »


Hatter23 - Jewish THEOLOGY (why is that so hard for you) is relevant because of your second question "Did they generally observe Judeism as instructed to by their parents? " Yes, they did, making Jewish theology relevant ... Actually, I only recently learned about the term "Age of accountability" about a year ago, during of all things a Christian Bible Study ( :o Imagine that!) ... Yes, I do view MY interpretation as the "One True" interpretation for ME!  You accept it? Fine. You don't? Fine. I don't care ... Finally, one second before or one second after? now that's irrelevant; refer back to your original question....   >:( and please don't presume to know me from other Christians, you don't!


So wait a second, you are arguing that age of accountability is something your sect follows...but I know other sects don't. But you are upset that I "presume" to know you???? Hunh??? Can you even parse that line of reasoning?

And the one second before and one second after IS relevant because the point I was making is how ridiculous and vile the doctrine of heaven and hell is. You moved the goalposts. I ajusted my argument for those new goalposts....and now I'm not allowed to?

Do you not expect when you move the goalposts, and unlike most people you actually made them visible, that a person would adjust for them and all you can come up with is..."you can't?" That is complete foolishness that is transparent as glass.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #74 on: May 25, 2011, 10:14:26 AM »
Velkyn - same goes for you, don't presume to know me from other Christians, you don't either...I do NOT ignore the bible's inconvenient parts. I am currently studying the most violent book in the Old Testament. Do I like it? No! Do I ignore it? No. But I will accept it and learn from it! ... and you are right in that the Bible states that no one comes to Father but through the Son; but I'm not the one who doesn't like that or who ignores it - that would be you ... and unlike you, I don't presume to know everything therefore the only thing I know about the virgins is that it is in Revelation ... Yes, I could show you where the Bible, OT and NT (as well as religions and cultures)  indirectly refers to an "age of accountability" but the question is why should I?   It's the Bible - you don't accept it or give it any credibility...I answered the question according to my theology and to my satisfaction, so why should i waste my hard work on you? ... sorry I just don't see the point, if you're not going to believe it anyway.  Maybe I will, Maybe I won't...I just don't know.    8)

So have you given up all you have for JC?  Do you at least attempt to kill homosexuals, those that work on the "sabbath" (which day is the right one, DS?) and those who reject JC as their "prince"?  Do you eat shrimp or a cheeseburger?  I'm going to guess that you will try to claim that God didn't "really" mean any of those or that JC said that those laws don't apply anymore.  Both rather sad little claims since it is more than easy to show how they are wrong.   

And I do love it when Christians make claims and then whine when they are asked to show the evidence.  So nice to see that you indeed were lying about such things and don't have even enough belief to keep you from doing that.  Nice little hypocrite you are, DS.
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Offline Tykster

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #75 on: May 25, 2011, 10:37:12 AM »
Wow, I'm the one who is ignorant? You people see what u want to see and I'm trying to tell you the Truth.
How about I'll give u a link to another discussion and then you'll let me know what you think:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7509431/

It's laughable that you point to this site as a defense of your belief. The apologists in there only affirm that there's no evidence of  Jesus.
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Offline caveat_imperator

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #76 on: May 25, 2011, 01:59:30 PM »
It seems that one group of people is stating that God is real, the other says on the contrary. People in the first group believe in God, have meaning in their lives, know where they came from and know where they are going. The other group doesn't.

Quote
It seems that one group of people is stating that God is real, the other says on the contrary. People in the first group believe in God, think they have meaning in their lives, think they know where they came from and think they know where they are going. The other group don't believe in God, have meaning in their lives, know where they came from and know where they are going.

The edits in italics added to make what was previously written more accurate.
You can't prove a negative of an existence postulate.

Offline Rare96ws6

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #77 on: June 19, 2011, 12:37:34 AM »
Quote

Whoa, whoa, whoa, Vol! You're getting confused again. "Hell" was not mentioned in early translations of the bible. The concept you are attributing to Hell, an actual place in the bible, comes from Dante's Inferno, which (most christians don't know) was a comedy.

Dante was obviously inspired by Norse mythology: In Norse mythology, Hel is a being who presides over a realm of the same name, where she receives a portion of the dead. In this mythology, no one is burning, but they are underground, where they are buried, and Hel watches over them, not torment them.

You can find out much, much more about the fictional hell just by starting in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell

Click on that and see how many other religions have their own version of "hell" and you can read about the goddess Hel in the same link.


Norse mythology comes much later (11 to 18th century) than Bible, which was written 2000 years ago. So this verse has nothing to do with Norse mythology.  In the Old Testament, Hell is more closely translated as Sheol in Hebrew or Hades, which means "place of darkness to which all dead go regardless of the moral choices made in life and where they are "removed from the light of God"".

In New Testament, in which Gospels were originally written in Greek, the word hell is exactly translated as 'Gehenna'. It represents a place of fire and torture for the wicked.

You can research this more online if you want. Use Wiki if you wish.

 Following this line of thinking, the Ugaritic texts of the Canaanites came before the Bible and even mention some of the same gods the Bible does. Yahweh is also mentioned in the texts as a son of the god El. They were written before the Israelites even came into the land of Canana. It seems plausible to think that the Israelites adopted their religious beliefs from the Canaanites or at least adjusted them.
Extrordinary claims require extrordinay evidence - Carl Sagan.

Offline Rare96ws6

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #78 on: June 19, 2011, 12:42:04 AM »
First of all, be respectful to my beliefs and don't call Christianity a mythology. Jesus is a proven historical figure. Titus Flavius Josephus, Justus of Tiberius, and few more of historians write about Jesus. (all lived within 100 yrs from Jesus's death).

Quote
According to your mythology, Christianity, Could god have preformed actions to prevent this? Yes

God could've helped them, but He didn't. We don't know why God let it happen to them. Does that mean you can absolutely ignore all evidence for His existence from people that live today and the past, just by focusing only on these stories?

Yes, they had free will. So do u and me, but right now millions of people die from hunger, war, etc. Just like darkness is an absence of light, evil is the absence of good.

If you see someone drowning and u can help them, but u pass by and ignore it, does that mean u don't exist or u don't love him/her?
Quote
According to your mythology, Christianity, Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? Yes

Who said she was doomed to hell? You're the one who assumes this. You don't know what were her thoughts before she died, maybe she repented and accepted Christ before her death. Just like in prison, they limited her freedom physically, but now mentally or spiritually.

 V, here is a list of historians and writers that lived in close proximity and that lived during the supposed life time of Jesus. All lived with in a 100 year span of him. Not one of them ever mentions him. Do you not find this odd? I know I do, looking at it with an open mind.  The couple you have mentioned above, you should look up. They have all been debunked.

Apollonius             Persius
 Appian                 Petronius
 Arrian                 Phaedrus
 Aulus Gellius          Philo-Judaeus
 Columella              Phlegon
 Damis                  Pliny the Elder
 Dio Chrysostom         Pliny the Younger
 Dion Pruseus           Plutarch
 Epictetus              Pompon Mela
 Favorinus              Ptolemy
 Florus Lucius          Quintilian
 Hermogones             Quintius Curtius
 Josephus               Seneca
 Justus of Tiberius     Silius Italicus
 Juvenal                Statius
 Lucanus                Suetonius
 Lucian                 Tacitus
 Lysias                 Theon of Smyran
 Martial                Valerius Flaccus
 Paterculus             Valerius Maximus
 Pausanias
Extrordinary claims require extrordinay evidence - Carl Sagan.

Offline Rare96ws6

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #79 on: June 19, 2011, 12:43:46 AM »
First of all, be respectful to my beliefs and don't call Christianity a mythology. Jesus is a proven historical figure. Titus Flavius Josephus, Justus of Tiberius, and few more of historians write about Jesus. (all lived within 100 yrs from Jesus's death).
As you say, none saw him alive and the Josephus passage you are thinking of is a forgery added much later by an over-excitable Christian.

Quote
Consider the following list. These are the historians and writers who DID live within Christ's alleged lifetime or within a hundred years of it, after the time:
 Apollonius             Persius
 Appian                 Petronius
 Arrian                 Phaedrus
 Aulus Gellius          Philo-Judaeus
 Columella              Phlegon
 Damis                  Pliny the Elder
 Dio Chrysostom         Pliny the Younger
 Dion Pruseus           Plutarch
 Epictetus              Pompon Mela
 Favorinus              Ptolemy
 Florus Lucius          Quintilian
 Hermogones             Quintius Curtius
 Josephus               Seneca
 Justus of Tiberius     Silius Italicus
 Juvenal                Statius
 Lucanus                Suetonius
 Lucian                 Tacitus
 Lysias                 Theon of Smyran
 Martial                Valerius Flaccus
 Paterculus             Valerius Maximus
 Pausanias
Yet, aside from two FORGED passages in the works of a Jewish writer mentioned above, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers, there isn't ANY mention of Jesus Christ. At all
.
http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/jesus5.htm

Quote
Who said she was doomed to hell? You're the one who assumes this. You don't know what were her thoughts before she died, maybe she repented and accepted Christ before her death.
Hmmm… just like Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot…

 Whoops, I just realized you already posted this list for V to look at. Sorry:(
Extrordinary claims require extrordinay evidence - Carl Sagan.

Offline Rare96ws6

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #80 on: June 19, 2011, 12:54:09 AM »
Very interesting story there. Let me ask you then... Do u know everything about this girl? Do u know completely 100% what were her feelings and emotions and what she thought and said during the time in the camp? Do u posses all the knowledge of the world, including this girl's relationships with others and her own personal beliefs? It would be wrong to make a total absolute conclusion that God doesn't exist just based on the evidence of what YOU know from outside sources. Unless u knew her personally, then I apologize..

It was an example, a hypothetical situation similar to things that actually occured in the deathcamps. Your questions are irrelavent. Assume everything I said was correct, and apply your theology. If you do so, everything I said stands as accurate.

Were their four year old children killed in the deathcamps? Yes
Did they generally observe Judiasm as instructed to by their parents? Yes
Did they have freewill to not inhale the gas? No
Did they have freewill not to be incinerated? No
According to your mythology, Christianity, Could god have preformed actions to prevent this? Yes
According to your mythology, Christianity, Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? Yes

You attempt to obsfucate those clear facts with bringing up irrelavent points.

According to Jewish and Christian theology, you are both wrong. Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? NO!

At 4 years of age, she has not yet reached the age of accountability.  She does not have the ability to choose, by freewill, right or wrong. This innocent child in your hypothetical situation is not doomed to an eternity of torture but is instead an eternal child of God.

 Could you please post verses? I was taught this as a Christian, but no verses were ever referenced. I have yet to read any on my own and I have read through the Bible a few times. If you are referring to other texts, please post them.

thanks 
Extrordinary claims require extrordinay evidence - Carl Sagan.

Offline Emily

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #81 on: June 19, 2011, 02:10:46 AM »
According to Job 14:1 she is.

Job 14:1

Man that is born of a woman is of few days and full of trouble.

So why would god not make someone accountable for their actions when they are only a few days old? If following the bible.

Also considering that in Romans all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god, so therefor their is no age of accountability.

It would be nice to think that there is such an age of accountability in god's eyes, but there isn't. All the passages seem to indicate that the moment you are born you are a sinner, and it doesn't matter if you die before you are able to recognize your sin and shame in god's eyes. It doesn't matter to him how old you are. If you die before being able to fully recognize the errors of your ways, biblically speaking, you're destined to spend eternity with the most vile people ever to walk the planet.

Kind of shows how much of a complete dick god is.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #82 on: June 19, 2011, 07:16:04 AM »
V, here is a list of historians and writers that lived in close proximity and that lived during the supposed life time of Jesus. All lived with in a 100 year span of him. Not one of them ever mentions him. Do you not find this odd? I know I do, looking at it with an open mind.

Apollonius             Persius
 Appian                 Petronius
 Arrian                 Phaedrus
 Aulus Gellius          Philo-Judaeus
 Columella              Phlegon
 Damis                  Pliny the Elder
 Dio Chrysostom         Pliny the Younger
 Dion Pruseus           Plutarch
 Epictetus              Pompon Mela
 Favorinus              Ptolemy
 Florus Lucius          Quintilian
 Hermogones             Quintius Curtius
 Josephus               Seneca
 Justus of Tiberius     Silius Italicus
 Juvenal                Statius
 Lucanus                Suetonius
 Lucian                 Tacitus
 Lysias                 Theon of Smyran
 Martial                Valerius Flaccus
 Paterculus             Valerius Maximus
 Pausanias

Yes, it's very peculiar.  Especially in light of:

Mt 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.   

4:25 And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.

And it wasn't just that people traveled to see Jesus, either.  Jesus wore out more than a little sandal leather himself.

So let me get this straight.  There's a guy working all these fantastic miracles -- keep in mind, scripture says that he did far, far more miracles than what's reported in the bible itself, too -- healing the sick, walking on water, performing exorcisms, feeding thousands of people with a couple of loaves of bread and a few fish, all kinds of other stuff.  He becomes so famous that thousands of people travel hundreds of miles to see him, and he travels hundreds of miles himself, seeing thousands more people who didn't travel.  Upon his death, there's a three-hour long eclipse, and dead people rise from their graves and start walking around...

...and the historians of the period record NONE of this?!

In the immortal words of Batman's sidekick, Robin: "Holy improbability!"
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Offline Rare96ws6

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #83 on: June 19, 2011, 08:38:32 PM »
 Exactly Pianodwarf. I just don't get why so many people don't see this as a problem. With all of the many things Jesus supposedly did, why is that absolutely no record of it? Crazy!
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #84 on: June 20, 2011, 12:37:04 AM »
8)
 >:( I just spent the last 2.5 hours writing a dissertation in response to your replies, but God must not have liked it because when I went to preview it before posting, I had to re-sign in and I ended up losing it...so...here's the quick version...
Suggestion for the future, write it in a notepad scratch file or something.

No comment on the rest because I haven't read it through, but this caught my eye.

Offline Vivisectus

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #85 on: June 20, 2011, 05:09:23 AM »
Very interesting story there. Let me ask you then... Do u know everything about this girl? Do u know completely 100% what were her feelings and emotions and what she thought and said during the time in the camp? Do u posses all the knowledge of the world, including this girl's relationships with others and her own personal beliefs? It would be wrong to make a total absolute conclusion that God doesn't exist just based on the evidence of what YOU know from outside sources. Unless u knew her personally, then I apologize..

It was an example, a hypothetical situation similar to things that actually occured in the deathcamps. Your questions are irrelavent. Assume everything I said was correct, and apply your theology. If you do so, everything I said stands as accurate.

Were their four year old children killed in the deathcamps? Yes
Did they generally observe Judiasm as instructed to by their parents? Yes
Did they have freewill to not inhale the gas? No
Did they have freewill not to be incinerated? No
According to your mythology, Christianity, Could god have preformed actions to prevent this? Yes
According to your mythology, Christianity, Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? Yes

You attempt to obsfucate those clear facts with bringing up irrelavent points.

According to Jewish and Christian theology, you are both wrong. Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? NO!

At 4 years of age, she has not yet reached the age of accountability.  She does not have the ability to choose, by freewill, right or wrong. This innocent child in your hypothetical situation is not doomed to an eternity of torture but is instead an eternal child of God.

That depends on which branch of either you adhere to. Catholicism has only stopped consigning them to purgatory in the past few years, for instance - please note that the little girl was not baptized. Calvinist protestants consider her faith pre-destined anyway - it makes no difference what she did in her life, she would probably go to hell along with the vast majority of people.

Most christians see humanity as essentially sinful, so it is a fair bet that a little girl who was not a christian would go to the lakes of fire.
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Offline Vivisectus

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #86 on: June 20, 2011, 05:12:44 AM »
First of all, be respectful to my beliefs and don't call Christianity a mythology. Jesus is a proven historical figure. Titus Flavius Josephus, Justus of Tiberius, and few more of historians write about Jesus. (all lived within 100 yrs from Jesus's death).

Quote
According to your mythology, Christianity, Could god have preformed actions to prevent this? Yes

God could've helped them, but He didn't. We don't know why God let it happen to them. Does that mean you can absolutely ignore all evidence for His existence from people that live today and the past, just by focusing only on these stories?

Yes, they had free will. So do u and me, but right now millions of people die from hunger, war, etc. Just like darkness is an absence of light, evil is the absence of good.

If you see someone drowning and u can help them, but u pass by and ignore it, does that mean u don't exist or u don't love him/her?
Quote
According to your mythology, Christianity, Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? Yes

Who said she was doomed to hell? You're the one who assumes this. You don't know what were her thoughts before she died, maybe she repented and accepted Christ before her death. Just like in prison, they limited her freedom physically, but now mentally or spiritually.

 V, here is a list of historians and writers that lived in close proximity and that lived during the supposed life time of Jesus. All lived with in a 100 year span of him. Not one of them ever mentions him. Do you not find this odd? I know I do, looking at it with an open mind.  The couple you have mentioned above, you should look up. They have all been debunked.

Apollonius             Persius
 Appian                 Petronius
 Arrian                 Phaedrus
 Aulus Gellius          Philo-Judaeus
 Columella              Phlegon
 Damis                  Pliny the Elder
 Dio Chrysostom         Pliny the Younger
 Dion Pruseus           Plutarch
 Epictetus              Pompon Mela
 Favorinus              Ptolemy
 Florus Lucius          Quintilian
 Hermogones             Quintius Curtius
 Josephus               Seneca
 Justus of Tiberius     Silius Italicus
 Juvenal                Statius
 Lucanus                Suetonius
 Lucian                 Tacitus
 Lysias                 Theon of Smyran
 Martial                Valerius Flaccus
 Paterculus             Valerius Maximus
 Pausanias

This list does not seem to be correct - Josephus does indeed mention Jesus. There is some dispute regarding the authenticity of the passage where he mentions it, but this seems to be mostly from people who do not believe in a historical Jesus.
It is a foine loine between a poirate and a farrrmer. Oi stand astroid that foine loine.