Freewill. Not an excuse.

[Hatter23]

Take a four year old Jewish girl killed in a concentration camp in 1944. She followed what their parents told her to, was rounded up by the government, then killed. She did not have the freewill to not choke on the gas. She did not have the freewill not to be burned and turned into a stinking cloud of death above Auchwitz.  By Christian Mythology she is also doomed to an eternity of torment, though said God could have appeared to her in her dreams. Could have had the Camp Gaurds realize what they were doing and open the gates, fall down, and weep in shame. He could have allowed the Allies to have arrived two year earlier and liberate the camp. None of this happened. That is the Deity you worship Christians. We do not.

It is clear to us, that no action is coming from this Deity because it is fictional.

Appearing before us would no more take away freewill than prisoners, knowing they are in prison, and knowing they are observed by gaurds, still do acts that are forbidden in prison. I've worked in prisons and it was a daily occurance. So knowledge of right and wrong, observation, and consequences does not prevent freewill.

[vozilo]

Very interesting story there. Let me ask you then... Do u know everything about this girl? Do u know completely 100% what were her feelings and emotions and what she thought and said during the time in the camp? Do u posses all the knowledge of the world, including this girl's relationships with others and her own personal beliefs? It would be wrong to make a total absolute conclusion that God doesn't exist just based on the evidence of what YOU know from outside sources. Unless u knew her personally, then I apologize..

[Hatter23]

Very interesting story there. Let me ask you then... Do u know everything about this girl? Do u know completely 100% what were her feelings and emotions and what she thought and said during the time in the camp? Do u posses all the knowledge of the world, including this girl's relationships with others and her own personal beliefs? It would be wrong to make a total absolute conclusion that God doesn't exist just based on the evidence of what YOU know from outside sources. Unless u knew her personally, then I apologize..

It was an example, a hypothetical situation similar to things that actually occured in the deathcamps. Your questions are irrelavent. Assume everything I said was correct, and apply your theology. If you do so, everything I said stands as accurate.

Were their four year old children killed in the deathcamps? Yes
Did they generally observe Judiasm as instructed to by their parents? Yes
Did they have freewill to not inhale the gas? No
Did they have freewill not to be incinerated? No
According to your mythology, Christianity, Could god have preformed actions to prevent this? Yes
According to your mythology, Christianity, Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? Yes

You attempt to obsfucate those clear facts with bringing up irrelavent points.

[velkyn]

Very interesting story there. Let me ask you then... Do u know everything about this girl? Do u know completely 100% what were her feelings and emotions and what she thought and said during the time in the camp? Do u posses all the knowledge of the world, including this girl's relationships with others and her own personal beliefs? It would be wrong to make a total absolute conclusion that God doesn't exist just based on the evidence of what YOU know from outside sources. Unless u knew her personally, then I apologize..

I do love your nonsense, Voz.  You are an excellent example of the classic sycophantic Christian.  You need to make up any excuse you can to excuse your imaginary god, including applauding the harm done to a girl by this being's "will".  You do more for making people realize that there is no god than any atheist does with your attempts to claim that a 4 year old girl deserves to be harmed and damned. 

I'd almost think you were a particularly nasty person intentionally trying to make Christians look bad but I can unfortunately be pretty sure that you are serious since so many of you spew such garbage.  Your self-worth is so fragile that rather than admit that you are wrong about your belief in this nonsense, that you will go out of your way to make such vile claims.   

[vozilo]

First of all, be respectful to my beliefs and don't call Christianity a mythology. Jesus is a proven historical figure. Titus Flavius Josephus, Justus of Tiberius, and few more of historians write about Jesus. (all lived within 100 yrs from Jesus's death).

According to your mythology, Christianity, Could god have preformed actions to prevent this? Yes

God could've helped them, but He didn't. We don't know why God let it happen to them. Does that mean you can absolutely ignore all evidence for His existence from people that live today and the past, just by focusing only on these stories?

Yes, they had free will. So do u and me, but right now millions of people die from hunger, war, etc. Just like darkness is an absence of light, evil is the absence of good.

If you see someone drowning and u can help them, but u pass by and ignore it, does that mean u don't exist or u don't love him/her?

According to your mythology, Christianity, Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? Yes

Who said she was doomed to hell? You're the one who assumes this. You don't know what were her thoughts before she died, maybe she repented and accepted Christ before her death. Just like in prison, they limited her freedom physically, but now mentally or spiritually.

[Persephone]

First of all, be respectful to my beliefs and don't call Christianity a mythology.

Must I be respectful of my neighbor's belief that fairies live in his garden?

I respect your right to believe as you wish. I am under no obligation, however, to respect beliefs that have no basis in reality.

Jesus is a proven historical figure. Titus Flavius Josephus, Justus of Tiberius, and few more of historians write about Jesus. (all lived within 100 yrs from Jesus's death).

Can you please provide links?

I'd really love to read them. Seriously.

[vozilo]

Wow, I'm the one who is ignorant? You people see what u want to see and I'm trying to tell you the Truth.
How about I'll give u a link to another discussion and then you'll let me know what you think:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7509431/

[velkyn]

First of all, be respectful to my beliefs and don't call Christianity a mythology. Jesus is a proven historical figure. Titus Flavius Josephus, Justus of Tiberius, and few more of historians write about Jesus. (all lived within 100 yrs from Jesus's death).

Sorry, until you provide evidence your claims are any more valid than myths, they remain myths.  And such pathetic repetition of lies again.  no, Josephus doesn't write about Jesus (it's a forgery, more lies for Christ), either does Justus, etc.  They speak of Christians but not JC. Again, by your claims, this would mean that any mention of any believes of any religion makes that religion just as true as yours.  Congratulations! 

God could've helped them, but He didn't. We don't know why God let it happen to them. Does that mean you can absolutely ignore all evidence for His existence from people that live today and the past, just by focusing only on these stories?

Again, where is this evidence that you claim exists but can't produce?

Yes, they had free will. So do u and me, but right now millions of people die from hunger, war, etc. Just like darkness is an absence of light, evil is the absence of good.

Funny how God could ignore free will and supposely give the Israelites manna but has to let people starve to death now.   

If you see someone drowning and u can help them, but u pass by and ignore it, does that mean u don't exist or u don't love him/her?

Oh, I do feel sorry for anyone who knows you in real life.  Yes, dear, it does mean that you don't love them or even have the slightest shred of human decency.  But again, you sure do a great job in making horrible claims in your desperation to claim your god exists. 

Who said she was doomed to hell? You're the one who assumes this. You don't know what were her thoughts before she died, maybe she repented and accepted Christ before her death. Just like in prison, they limited her freedom physically, but now mentally or spiritually.

Who?  Oh, Jesus in John 3.  Wow, haven't read your bible have you?  It's always sad to see Christian ignorance in their own holy book.  You do realize that Hatter's example was of a 4 year old girl, right? 

Too bad you aren't a Poe.  I'll have to get Servus' and String's attention to your responses. 

[Dante]

Wow, I'm the one who is ignorant? You people see what u want to see

We want to see evidence. What is your difficulty in understanding that?

and I'm trying to tell you the Truth.

The truth as you believe it, but have no evidence for. Yes, you are ignorant.

[Hatter23]

First of all, be respectful to my beliefs and don't call Christianity a mythology.

Request denied, unless you do NOT call any other belief a mythology. That includes the Greeks, the Roman, The Wiccan, Those that believed their anscestor spirits reside in trees, Those that practice Voodoo. Those the believe the earth is flat, etc. Unless you have never...ever called anything a myth....and I believe you have....then you do not have any room so say that Christianity cannot be called a myth.

 Jesus is a proven historical figure. Titus Flavius Josephus, Justus of Tiberius, and few more of historians write about Jesus. (all lived within 100 yrs from Jesus's death).

Josephus is a forgery, and Justus talks about Christians...not Christ. Not a proven historical figure.

According to your mythology, Christianity, Could god have preformed actions to prevent this? Yes

God could've helped them, but He didn't. We don't know why God let it happen to them. Does that mean you can absolutely ignore all evidence for His existence from people that live today and the past, just by focusing only on these stories?

Yes, they had free will. So do u and me, but right now millions of people die from hunger, war, etc. Just like darkness is an absence of light, evil is the absence of good.

If you see someone drowning and u can help them, but u pass by and ignore it, does that mean u don't exist or u don't love him/her?

WHat is this evidence, so far I do not see it. If I can easily help someone from being incinerated and I don't...I loose all claims on love...or being accounted for as a moral being.

According to your mythology, Christianity, Is she doomed to an eternity of torture? Yes

Who said she was doomed to hell? You're the one who assumes this. You don't know what were her thoughts before she died, maybe she repented and accepted Christ before her death. Just like in prison, they limited her freedom physically, but now mentally or spiritually.

Yeah, because a 4 year old raised in a Jewish household would think that way....are you really that incredibly stupid??????

[vozilo]

Funny how God could ignore free will and supposely give the Israelites manna but has to let people starve to death now.   

You seem to disprove all of the Bible, yet you read it and try to pretend that want to know the truth. Even if I try to explain to u why things are the way they are now you wouldn't accept it because you're ignorant.

Who?  Oh, Jesus in John 3.  Wow, haven't read your bible have you?  It's always sad to see Christian ignorance in their own holy book.  You do realize that Hatter's example was of a 4 year old girl, right? 

Too bad you aren't a Poe.  I'll have to get Servus' and String's attention to your responses.

I am not ignorant of the Bible. I know what John 3:16 says, "..so that whoever believes in Jesus, should not perish, but have eternal life." What I meant to say was who are you to state that she went to hell? Maybe she didn't ! You're only judging her eternal state from outside facts. Do u know what she believed in when she died? I don't think so.

[Hatter23]

Funny how God could ignore free will and supposely give the Israelites manna but has to let people starve to death now.   

You seem to disprove all of the Bible

Good, we are in agreement.

[vozilo]

Yeah, because a 4 year old raised in a Jewish household would think that way....are you really that incredibly stupid??????

Stop attacking my intelligence and debate on the topic. All I am saying is that you don't know her state of mind when she died, she could've changed her beliefs and seen God in all of this, while you only see negative.

You seem so concerned about the girl going to hell. Do you really believe in hell?

[velkyn]

Funny how God could ignore free will and supposely give the Israelites manna but has to let people starve to death now.   

You seem to disprove all of the Bible, yet you read it and try to pretend that want to know the truth. Even if I try to explain to u why things are the way they are now you wouldn't accept it because you're ignorant.

  Please do show how I'm "ignorant".  You are stuck wiht your bible that demonstrates your claims are wrong.  I do enjoy pointing that out.  So, what is it, Voz, is free will stopping God?  If so, and if you believe that yoru god exists and gave manna to the Israelites, explain how that didn't abrogate the Israelites free will to die of starvation in a desert.  I know the truth, Voz.  Your stories are just that, stories told to try to explain the world by ignorant agrarians which fail miserably in the real world where we have science to do that.  Science that you use daily as long as its convenient and attack when it dares to say that your myths are pathetically wrong.

Who?  Oh, Jesus in John 3.  Wow, haven't read your bible have you?  It's always sad to see Christian ignorance in their own holy book.  You do realize that Hatter's example was of a 4 year old girl, right? 

Too bad you aren't a Poe.  I'll have to get Servus' and String's attention to your responses.

I am not ignorant of the Bible. I know what John 3:16 says, "..so that whoever believes in Jesus, should not perish, but have eternal life." What I meant to say was who are you to state that she went to hell? Maybe she didn't ! You're only judging her eternal state from outside facts. Do u know what she believed in when she died? I don't think so.
[/quote]
Evidently you are if you ask where it says people who don't believe in Jesus go to hell.  Hilarious that you can't even bring yourself to show the whole passage

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Please do tell us how a 4 year old Jewish girl could magically convert in a concentration camp. 

EDIT:  I don't believe in hell.  I find the concept vile and essentially stupid for a supposed omnipotent being.  I do find it sickening that such sycophants such as yourself need to get your jollies over such a concept because you seem to be so afraid of being shown wrong that you have to invent the ultimate punishement to make yourselves feel better. 

[Dante]

Yeah, because a 4 year old raised in a Jewish household would think that way....are you really that incredibly stupid??????

Stop attacking my intelligence and debate on the topic. All I am saying is that you don't know her state of mind when she died, she could've changed her beliefs and seen God in all of this, while you only see negative.

And neither do you. But, you believe if she didn't find your god, she would burn in hell for all eternity, correct?

[vozilo]

And neither do you. But, you believe if she didn't find your god, she would burn in hell for all eternity, correct?

Yes I believe what the Bible says. Mind you, I didn't invent the Bible, it has existed for more than 2000 years, written by 40 different authors.

And clearly, you don't believe in the Bible. So why are so concerned about her? She's dead, and so will we be dead at some point or another.

If hell or heaven doesn't exist, then God doesn't exist, and if God doesn't exist than there is no evil or good, it's just a philosophy. It's all about how perceive the world isn't it?

[Hatter23]

Yeah, because a 4 year old raised in a Jewish household would think that way....are you really that incredibly stupid??????

Stop attacking my intelligence and debate on the topic. All I am saying is that you don't know her state of mind when she died, she could've changed her beliefs and seen God in all of this, while you only see negative.

You seem so concerned about the girl going to hell. Do you really believe in hell?

You are correct, I shouldn't have stated it that way

However, please do tell us how a 4 year old Jewish girl could magically convert in a concentration camp. 

[vozilo]

Funny how God could ignore free will and supposely give the Israelites manna but has to let people starve to death now.   

You seem to disprove all of the Bible, yet you read it and try to pretend that want to know the truth. Even if I try to explain to u why things are the way they are now you wouldn't accept it because you're ignorant.

  Please do show how I'm "ignorant".  You are stuck wiht your bible that demonstrates your claims are wrong.  I do enjoy pointing that out.  So, what is it, Voz, is free will stopping God?  If so, and if you believe that yoru god exists and gave manna to the Israelites, explain how that didn't abrogate the Israelites free will to die of starvation in a desert.  I know the truth, Voz.  Your stories are just that, stories told to try to explain the world by ignorant agrarians which fail miserably in the real world where we have science to do that.  Science that you use daily as long as its convenient and attack when it dares to say that your myths are pathetically wrong.

Who?  Oh, Jesus in John 3.  Wow, haven't read your bible have you?  It's always sad to see Christian ignorance in their own holy book.  You do realize that Hatter's example was of a 4 year old girl, right? 

Too bad you aren't a Poe.  I'll have to get Servus' and String's attention to your responses.

I am not ignorant of the Bible. I know what John 3:16 says, "..so that whoever believes in Jesus, should not perish, but have eternal life." What I meant to say was who are you to state that she went to hell? Maybe she didn't ! You're only judging her eternal state from outside facts. Do u know what she believed in when she died? I don't think so.

Evidently you are if you ask where it says people who don't believe in Jesus go to hell.  Hilarious that you can't even bring yourself to show the whole passage

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Please do tell us how a 4 year old Jewish girl could magically convert in a concentration camp. 

EDIT:  I don't believe in hell.  I find the concept vile and essentially stupid for a supposed omnipotent being.  I do find it sickening that such sycophants such as yourself need to get your jollies over such a concept because you seem to be so afraid of being shown wrong that you have to invent the ultimate punishement to make yourselves feel better.
[/quote]

Thank you for posting the whole verse. I just thought that focusing on the point on where it talks about hell would be more relevant, but hey thanks for posting from the BIBLE!

[Hatter23]

And neither do you. But, you believe if she didn't find your god, she would burn in hell for all eternity, correct?

Yes I believe what the Bible says. Mind you, I didn't invent the Bible, it has existed for more than 2000 years, written by 40 different authors.

And clearly, you don't believe in the Bible. So why are so concerned about her? She's dead, and so will we be dead at some point or another.

If hell or heaven doesn't exist, then God doesn't exist, and if God doesn't exist than there is no evil or good, it's just a philosophy. It's all about how perceive the world isn't it?

Because unlike some randomly looney who think Harry Potter is real, Theism is a major force to cause strife, harm, control, and to bind the hands and minds of the populace. If the Abrahamic God/Jesus isn't real, then all of that effort, or of that strife, all of that denial, all of that villany is over something that is fictional.

 

[vozilo]

You are correct, I shouldn't have stated it that way

However, please do tell us how a 4 year old Jewish girl could magically convert in a concentration camp.

Apology accepted. A Jewish girl could've prayed to God and He heard her prayer and taken her to heaven. Simple as that. If she died physically, doesn't mean God didn't hear her. It was His ruling for her to die.

Like I said before, do u know absolutely 100% of this universe? If you did, then I would give you some credibility.

[Hatter23]

You are correct, I shouldn't have stated it that way

However, please do tell us how a 4 year old Jewish girl could magically convert in a concentration camp.

Apology accepted. A Jewish girl could've prayed to God and He heard her prayer and taken her to heaven. Simple as that. If she died physically, doesn't mean God didn't hear her. It was His ruling for her to die.

Like I said before, do u know absolutely 100% of this universe? If you did, then I would give you some credibility.

Appeal to ignorance, it doesn't work because it is a fallacy. Unlike some randomly looney who think Harry Potter is real, Theism is a major force to cause strife, harm, control, and to bind the hands and minds of the populace. If the Abrahamic God/Jesus isn't real, then all of that effort, or of that strife, all of that denial, all of that villany is over something that is fictional.

[velkyn]

Yes I believe what the Bible says. Mind you, I didn't invent the Bible, it has existed for more than 2000 years, written by 40 different authors.

ah, this is classic.  Oh, it's not my fault that I believe in such horrors, I'm just following orders.   

Ooh, I posted from the Bible.  Let me guess, that makes it true   Oh my so let me post the book of the dead too

Homage to you, O ye gods of the Dekans in Anu, and to you, O ye Hememet-spirits in Kher Aha, and to thee, O Unti, who art the most glorious of all the gods who are hidden in Anu, O grant thou unto me a path whereover I may pass in peace, for I am just and true; I have not spoken falsehood wittingly, nor have I done aught with deceit.

what's even more hilarious that you say that

Thank you for posting the whole verse. I just thought that focusing on the point on where it talks about hell would be more relevant, but hey thanks for posting from the BIBLE!

  when what you posted, just John 3:16 doesn't even mention hell at all.  The verses I posted did that.     Nice try though.  Rather amusing to see even more lies. 

[velkyn]

Apology accepted. A Jewish girl could've prayed to God and He heard her prayer and taken her to heaven. Simple as that. If she died physically, doesn't mean God didn't hear her. It was His ruling for her to die.

Like I said before, do u know absolutely 100% of this universe? If you did, then I would give you some credibility.

oh and the bible says explictly that it doesn't work this way. You know, in those verses from John 3 we've been discussing?  Nice try again to make up more nonsense on your own. 

[vozilo]

Because unlike some randomly looney who think Harry Potter is real, Theism is a major force to cause strife, harm, control, and to bind the hands and minds of the populace. If the Abrahamic God/Jesus isn't real, then all of that effort, or of that strife, all of that denial, all of that villany is over something that is fictional.

I am glad that you came to that conclusion. Over all of the world there is a war going on. Not a war over money, not a war of who has more authority, but a war over minds of people.

It seems that one group of people is stating that God is real, the other says on the contrary. People in the first group believe in God, have meaning in their lives, know where they came from and know where they are going. The other group doesn't.

Don't u think that if there was nothing there, this wouldn't exist? After all, no one is going to argue over pink elephant for over 2000 years? Right?

[vozilo]

oh and the bible says explictly that it doesn't work this way. You know, in those verses from John 3 we've been discussing?  Nice try again to make up more nonsense on your own.

The Bible says that, "..WHOEVER believes in Jesus Christ, will have eternal life." What do u understand a person must do to get saved quoting from John 3:16?

[Dante]

It seems that one group of people is stating that God is real, the other says on the contrary. People in the first group believe in God, have meaning in their lives, know where they came from and know where they are going. The other group doesn't.

So you're a moronmuslim?

[Hatter23]

It seems that one group of people is stating that God is real, the other says on the contrary. People in the first group believe in God, have meaning in their lives, know where they came from and know where they are going. The other group doesn't.

So you're a moronmuslim?

Or A Hindu?

[Hatter23]

Because unlike some randomly looney who think Harry Potter is real, Theism is a major force to cause strife, harm, control, and to bind the hands and minds of the populace. If the Abrahamic God/Jesus isn't real, then all of that effort, or of that strife, all of that denial, all of that villany is over something that is fictional.

I am glad that you came to that conclusion. Over all of the world there is a war going on. Not a war over money, not a war of who has more authority, but a war over minds of people.

It seems that one group of people is stating that God is real, the other says on the contrary. People in the first group believe in God, have meaning in their lives, know where they came from and know where they are going. The other group doesn't.

Don't u think that if there was nothing there, this wouldn't exist? After all, no one is going to argue over pink elephant for over 2000 years? Right?

So what about the Wars over various non-Christian deities over the millenia...by your own mindset, they were wars over a pink elephant. You are still relying on appeals to ignorance, false dichotomies, and ignoring the counter-evidence.

[vozilo]

So you're a moronmuslim?

Sorry, I don't feel bad because someone can't type. And I'm not Muslim, I believe in Jesus, Son of God.