Author Topic: God does heal amputees  (Read 23464 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6615
  • Darwins +523/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #435 on: July 08, 2011, 12:42:18 PM »
Following is a list of extra-biblical (outside of the Bible) references of biblical events, places, etc.  The list is not exhaustive but is very representative of what is available.

1.Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?, a Jewish historian) mentions John the Baptist and Herod - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 5, par. 2
AFAIK, usually accepted but does not mention Jesus

Quote
2.Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Jesus - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3.
Is not accepted as being genuine by the majority of serious theologians

Quote
3.Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions James, the brother of Jesus - Antiquities, Book 20, ch. 9.
Jesus was not an uncommon name and this passage has been shown to refer to another Jesus (some temple official, IIRC)

Quote
4.Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Ananias the High Priest who was mentioned in Acts 23:2
Believed to be accurate but does not mention Jesus.

Quote
5.Tacitus (A.D. c.55-A.D. c.117, Roman historian) mentions "Christus" who is Jesus - Annals 15.44
Christus isn't Jesus at all, IIRC, there is a Christus, a slave, mentioned by Paul. This is a common name.

Quote
6.Thallus (Circa AD 52, eclipse of the sun) Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time.  [...]
i.Is this a reference to the eclipse at the crucifixion?
No there wasn't an eclipse at that the time of the crucifixion.

Quote
7.Pliny the Younger mentioned Christ. Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor.  Pliny wrote ten books.  The tenth around AD 112.
Pliny reports only what Christians did - he does not cite any truth and he was writing 70 years after events

Quote
8.The Talmud
A."On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshu#Yeshu_the_sorcerer

Quote
9.Lucian (circa 120-after 180) mentions Jesus. Greek writer and rhetorician.
A."The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time,
Over100 years after the event and describing Christians not adding any proof.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 12:44:18 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline jdcpe17

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 70
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #436 on: July 08, 2011, 12:43:47 PM »
Oh, I get it now, God does heal amputees!  ;D

Well that is nice. I did not know that. I suppose anything is possible though. I heard that God put someones ear back on one though....
I see it as my job to let you know that I may need psychological help.

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #437 on: July 08, 2011, 12:53:27 PM »
Well that is nice. I did not know that. I suppose anything is possible though. I heard that God put someones ear back on one though....
yep, right from the bible.  No one else noticed though.  NO one noticed the supposed earthquake at the cruxifiction, or the sun darkening, or the exodus, or the massive gatherings of thousands of people in an occupied country, or any one raising from the dead, or people being healed.

And, though I forget the exact one, one of those "sources" you claim also says that soem Roman emperor also did miracles.  Was he lying about that?
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Avatar Of Belial

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 499
  • Darwins +30/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm not an Evil person; I just act like one!
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #438 on: July 08, 2011, 12:56:39 PM »
Compliance.
Graybeard already handled what you put up, but I want to touch on the source for first four quickly.

1.-3. You source this as "Antiquities" - I assume you refer to Antiquitates Judaicae (Antiquities of the Jews)?
This is a Jewish source of that time, so it is already guarenteed to share some references with the religion that spawned from its own. Also, all the surviving manuscripts we have come from christian sources, calling them further into question as to thier validity in some cases.

4. The author is cited as Flavius Josephus. Same guy from the first three - is it the same source book? (This would be for my own knowledge, I have not dug into this as much as some of the experts around here.)
"You play make-believe every day of your life, and yet you have no concept of 'imagination'."
I do not have "faith" in science. I have expectations of science. "Faith" in something is an unfounded assertion, whereas reasonable expectations require a precedent.

Offline jdcpe17

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 70
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #439 on: July 08, 2011, 12:57:13 PM »
Over100 years after the event and describing Christians not adding any proof.

around about the time of the bible people were still transitioning from "oral tradition" to written records.

I suppose if you want to exclude all oral tradition that is your choice. However it has been showen to be very accurate and used widely. For example the jewish rabbis during this time had memorized the entire torah (basically the OT).

Most people doing the super detailed and long winded arguements for and against the bible conceed that these are usable proofs of "something" that the bible mentions - conceeding that just because they are 100 yrs old or whatever has little to no bearing on their practicality and usefulness.

I see it as my job to let you know that I may need psychological help.

Offline Avatar Of Belial

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 499
  • Darwins +30/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm not an Evil person; I just act like one!
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #440 on: July 08, 2011, 01:03:05 PM »
I suppose if you want to exclude all oral tradition that is your choice. However it has been showen to be very accurate and used widely.

While I certainly won't doubt they were used widely... accurate?

Isn't part of the memorization process 'making it your own'?
The Telephone game is a good demonstration of why I would hesitate to trust Oral sources, how would you even prove its accuracy without a written version to compare it too?
"You play make-believe every day of your life, and yet you have no concept of 'imagination'."
I do not have "faith" in science. I have expectations of science. "Faith" in something is an unfounded assertion, whereas reasonable expectations require a precedent.

Offline jdcpe17

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 70
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #441 on: July 08, 2011, 01:03:39 PM »
Compliance.
Graybeard already handled what you put up, but I want to touch on the source for first four quickly.

1.-3. You source this as "Antiquities" - I assume you refer to Antiquitates Judaicae (Antiquities of the Jews)?
This is a Jewish source of that time, so it is already guarenteed to share some references with the religion that spawned from its own. Also, all the surviving manuscripts we have come from christian sources, calling them further into question as to thier validity in some cases.

4. The author is cited as Flavius Josephus. Same guy from the first three - is it the same source book? (This would be for my own knowledge, I have not dug into this as much as some of the experts around here.)

yea he is the cited author.

you are very wrong in your assumptions about the jewish community at this time. Saul (Paul) was a very high level and respected Jew at the time just after Jesus died. He was considered to be extraordinarily intelligent, and aggressive. He made it his personal goal to stamp out all christians.

The jews saw christains as a blight in their world. The jewish historians wrote things about Jesus that everyone knew - like that he did miraculous things - but the jews refused to believe that he was God (they are the ones that charged he should die for calling Himself God) so the things they wrote about Him were written in such a way as to be read by other jews to see that Jesus must have been a false prophet - like that Jesus used magic. Magic, according to the OT, is very evil and no one should use magic of any type (good or bad magic whatever). So to say Jesus did his miracles using magic, for example, told all the jews what they already knew - that Jesus did miracles, but also gave an explanation as to how He did it - magic - which is why they crucified him.
I see it as my job to let you know that I may need psychological help.

Offline jdcpe17

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 70
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #442 on: July 08, 2011, 01:07:32 PM »
I suppose if you want to exclude all oral tradition that is your choice. However it has been showen to be very accurate and used widely.

While I certainly won't doubt they were used widely... accurate?

Isn't part of the memorization process 'making it your own'?
The Telephone game is a good demonstration of why I would hesitate to trust Oral sources, how would you even prove its accuracy without a written version to compare it too?

yes but the telephone game is not how oral tradition works.

in oral tradition , groups of people would sit and listen as one or groups of other recounted the history they memorized. if anyone disagreed they would speak up. and everyone had the same story and kept the same story. no changes.
I see it as my job to let you know that I may need psychological help.

Offline jdcpe17

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 70
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #443 on: July 08, 2011, 01:09:11 PM »
Well that is nice. I did not know that. I suppose anything is possible though. I heard that God put someones ear back on one though....
yep, right from the bible.  No one else noticed though.  NO one noticed the supposed earthquake at the cruxifiction, or the sun darkening, or the exodus, or the massive gatherings of thousands of people in an occupied country, or any one raising from the dead, or people being healed.

And, though I forget the exact one, one of those "sources" you claim also says that soem Roman emperor also did miracles.  Was he lying about that?

i have no idea if a roman emporer did miracles. probably a miracle to become an emperor. all this is saying however is that her are non-biblical sources that same similar things as the bible, around about the time of the bible being written. that is all this is saying. external proof of what the bible says.

yes you do run into the problem of should you belive the rat in jail who lied about something else? dunno. examine the motives. what motive did the non-biblical sources have for writing what they wrote? was it to make Jesus and the bible sound better? nope.... and often to make Jesus sound worse.


« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 01:10:52 PM by jdcpe17 »
I see it as my job to let you know that I may need psychological help.

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10942
  • Darwins +284/-37
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #444 on: July 08, 2011, 01:10:37 PM »
yes but the telephone game is not how oral tradition works.

in oral tradition , groups of people would sit and listen as one or groups of other recounted the history they memorized. if anyone disagreed they would speak up. and everyone had the same story and kept the same story. no changes.

Actually no. In oral tradition, everyone would sit and listen as one of the elders would tell a story. And nobody would question the elder. Ever.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12239
  • Darwins +269/-31
  • Gender: Male
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #445 on: July 08, 2011, 01:15:01 PM »
Sure, but ive answered this many times on my briefy appearance on this forum. God will answer your prayers if they are to His Glory. If they are some sort of worldly gain for you, then probably not.

Praying for an amputee's limbs to be restored would both glorify the god who granted the prayer, and not be for personal world gain.  Your "answer" does not adequately address the question.

God could care less about any test you give Him, and the bible even reads about it being wrong to test God at all. That is just how it is. Now, if you choose not to believe in the Bible, thats your choice and nothing i said matters.

So according to you, God chooses to fail a test of his existence because he doesn't care about it.  Okay.

As long as we both agree that there is no god who cares whether or not people believe in its existence, I think we'll get along splendidly.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Avatar Of Belial

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 499
  • Darwins +30/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm not an Evil person; I just act like one!
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #446 on: July 08, 2011, 01:15:46 PM »
you are very wrong in your assumptions about the jewish community at this time.

What assumption? I made no assumption and nothing after this sentance addresses anything I said. Read what I write.

Christianity is a basterdised version of Judaism, so it will have the same base - which means it shares things with Judaism. They have similarities that cannot be removed, so a Jewish text is very likely to speak of things that a shoot-off religion will also speak of. It's very simple logic that requires no assumptions.

yes but the telephone game is not how oral tradition works.

Even if it doesn't happen right away, the evolution of language is going to change something somewhere along the line.
For example, in english, the phrase "The exception that proves the rule" is utter nonsense. Exceptions DISprove rules. But when the phrase came into use, the word "prove" meant "to test". "The exception that tests the rule" makes much more sense.

Language evolution is unavoidable.
Even if you think that is accounted for, you still haven't given a reasonable way to prove that the oral traditions carried forwards were entirely reliable.

Also,
Quote
in oral tradition , groups of people would sit and listen as one or groups of other recounted the history they memorized. if anyone disagreed they would speak up.
Doesn't this in and of itself provide a method for change to creep in? Nevermind how easy it is for a small change to go unnoticed by even large groups.
"You play make-believe every day of your life, and yet you have no concept of 'imagination'."
I do not have "faith" in science. I have expectations of science. "Faith" in something is an unfounded assertion, whereas reasonable expectations require a precedent.

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #447 on: July 08, 2011, 01:22:11 PM »
i have no idea if a roman emporer did miracles. probably a miracle to become an emperor. all this is saying however is that her are non-biblical sources that same similar things as the bible, around about the time of the bible being written. that is all this is saying. external proof of what the bible says.
Nice attempt to dodge.  No, that’s not all this is saying. Tacitus wrote that Vespasian performed miracles.  You know what kind?  He healed people. http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/tac/h04080.htm Do you believe that roman emperors could do miracles just like your supposed “messiah”?  if you do, then what makes JC special in anyway?  Why do you think that this religion is the only right one?

And please do answer this: why did no one notice the cruxifiction, or the sun darkening, or the exodus, or the massive gatherings of thousands of people in an occupied country, or any one raising from the dead, or people being healed?
Quote
yes you do run into the problem of should you belive the rat in jail who lied about something else? dunno. examine the motives. what motive did the non-biblical sources have for writing what they wrote? was it to make Jesus and the bible sound better? nope.... and often to make Jesus sound worse.
Yep, examine those motives, JD.  What are they? In the forgery of Josephus’ work, we certainly see the motive there.  To lie about something in a desperate attempt to give more validity to something that has no evidence to support it.    In that we have no mention of Jesus Christ in those external sources you claimed did, they have no motive.  We do see mentions of Christians.  If this proves your god, then it also proves the existence of ever other god whose followers are mentioned in print. 

Oh and for God being aginast tests?
Quote
“In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—your whole nation—because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not drop their fruit before it is ripe,” says the LORD Almighty. 12 “Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land,” says the LORD Almighty.
Same with Gideon, same with Thomas. all tests
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 01:24:53 PM by velkyn »
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline jdcpe17

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 70
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #448 on: July 08, 2011, 01:31:31 PM »
Sure, but ive answered this many times on my briefy appearance on this forum. God will answer your prayers if they are to His Glory. If they are some sort of worldly gain for you, then probably not.

Praying for an amputee's limbs to be restored would both glorify the god who granted the prayer, and not be for personal world gain.  Your "answer" does not adequately address the question.

God could care less about any test you give Him, and the bible even reads about it being wrong to test God at all. That is just how it is. Now, if you choose not to believe in the Bible, thats your choice and nothing i said matters.

So according to you, God chooses to fail a test of his existence because he doesn't care about it.  Okay.

As long as we both agree that there is no god who cares whether or not people believe in its existence, I think we'll get along splendidly.

i like the word splendidly.....
I see it as my job to let you know that I may need psychological help.

Offline Avatar Of Belial

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 499
  • Darwins +30/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm not an Evil person; I just act like one!
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #449 on: July 08, 2011, 01:41:06 PM »
all this is saying however is that her are non-biblical sources that same similar things as the bible, around about the time of the bible being written. that is all this is saying. external proof of what the bible says.

That is not what you implied when this conversation started.

Quote
God, and by God I mean the judeo-christian God, is not limited.  Nothing is too difficult for Him to do.  He is God Almighty and can do anything.  It is just as easy for Him to heal an amputee as it is to raise someone from the dead.  The bible has testimony of several miracles which were of a greater order than healing a lost limb, so why this particular case is noteworthy to atheists I have no idea.

It is the Bible and its stories themselves which are in need of verification, SoG.  This website's question is one way of verifying them.  And they fail the test, when put to it.

Why would a real god choose to fail such a test, when it could succeed?

Actually the things the bible says happened here on earth in front of other people are written down in many other texts by non-christians. its pretty good verification.

The above implies that the verification you have would verify Christianity as a whole, or at least in large part.
When you say "all this is saying however is that her are non-biblical sources that same similar things as the bible" implies that simply some of the less/non-fanciful stuff that was essentially just talking about contemporary events would be verified. We didn't really have issue with any of that to begin with, so it points to the whole effort being pointless from the start.
"You play make-believe every day of your life, and yet you have no concept of 'imagination'."
I do not have "faith" in science. I have expectations of science. "Faith" in something is an unfounded assertion, whereas reasonable expectations require a precedent.

Offline Historicity

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2350
  • Darwins +80/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • (Rama, avatar of Vishnu)
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #450 on: July 08, 2011, 01:48:15 PM »
yes but the telephone game is not how oral tradition works.

in oral tradition , groups of people would sit and listen as one or groups of other recounted the history they memorized. if anyone disagreed they would speak up. and everyone had the same story and kept the same story. no changes.

Actually no. In oral tradition, everyone would sit and listen as one of the elders would tell a story. And nobody would question the elder. Ever.

Both wrong, I think.

I'm thinking of a 60 Minutes episode of a man who was wrongfully convicted by eyewitness testimony.  One guy at the scene kept "remembering" new details and talked to the other witnesses who started remembering them.  The convicted man was released on new evidence.  60 Minutes interviewed the man who turned the group.  He spoke tensely and quickly.  He dismissed the evidence in a fraction of a second because he knew what he saw.  He is still remembering new details.  He knows these are not false because he knows they are not false.  He felts called on specially to do justice.  He said he wanted to become a policeman and catch a lot more people that way.

Blaziken, your assumption of an elder would not work at first.  Only after there was order and tradition would there be elders who could talk down to people.

But jdpce17's idea is much worse.  Witnesses discussing stories are often persuaded to change and subsequently really have a visual memory of something they never saw.  There have been a number of studies of that.  A dissenter who insists he didn't see it would be cowed or shunned.

I had a discussion with a 9-11 Truther.  I shot down every piece of his bad physics.  He then trumped me.  What about, he asked, the flashes of light seen in sequence in the collapsing tower?  He said it was on a German film.  Like most people I have watched the clips of the towers falling again and again and there were no flashes of light.

I didn't say that.  I bailed on the discussion.  If the guy was so delusional there was no point in talking further.

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6615
  • Darwins +523/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #451 on: July 08, 2011, 03:02:26 PM »
I suppose if you want to exclude all oral tradition that is your choice. However it has been showen to be very accurate and used widely. For example the jewish rabbis during this time had memorized the entire torah (basically the OT).
And I suppose if you want to believe something a gullible iron age peasant with no education was reported as saying, that is your choice.   

Quote
Most people doing the super detailed and long winded arguments for and against the bible conceed that these are usable proofs of "something" that the bible mentions
I have to correct you, except where I have agreed, this is not the case.

Quote
conceding that just because they are 100 yrs old or whatever has little to no bearing on their practicality and usefulness.
Here in England, there is an oral tradition of Robin Hood stories that were later written down by some of the great authors. There are places, businesses and products named after him. The stories have been around for 900 years or so, all oral and written. BUT Robin Hood never existed...
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 03:05:19 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12209
  • Darwins +658/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #452 on: July 08, 2011, 03:32:11 PM »
And, though I forget the exact one, one of those "sources" you claim also says that soem Roman emperor also did miracles.  Was he lying about that?

VespasianWiki  It is funny.  In the wiki it describes his miracles as "propaganda", which I would agree with.  But I would say the same about jesus H.
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #453 on: July 11, 2011, 09:43:46 AM »
Indeed.  I wonder if JD will come back and respond to these posts, since they checked in today.  JD, if you are feeling too overwhelmed, you can request a one on one discussion.  I would like answers to my questions and any attempts you might have to rebut the facts I've shown you. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline jdcpe17

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 70
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #454 on: July 11, 2011, 11:37:45 AM »
Indeed.  I wonder if JD will come back and respond to these posts, since they checked in today.  JD, if you are feeling too overwhelmed, you can request a one on one discussion.  I would like answers to my questions and any attempts you might have to rebut the facts I've shown you.

i continue to take up my daily quest. i am not exactly overwhelmed, more, temporarily disinterested. i responded to a few things, 10 people respond back to me. thats fine. i expect on an anti-god site that there would be far more anti-god people that pro-god people posting. i have a job, family, personal duties, and quite an array of personal hobbies and interests. as my interest in discussing these things waxes and wanes, i read or read and post.

i dont consider it my duty to answer anyones questions and actually my motives for being on this site were partially selfish - seeking answers to my own questions from anyone that might answer. this goal was not achieved unfortunately.

i may return to post again. but likely not in the near future. if you are in despirate need of answers to your questions, you can speculate as to what i may have written (some of your Surtr friends have already made attempts), or your can expand your question to include more selection than just myself, though i am such a great and envied person i can understand if you must absolutly have an answer from only myself. :)

ciao,

17

« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 11:42:56 AM by jdcpe17 »
I see it as my job to let you know that I may need psychological help.

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #455 on: July 11, 2011, 03:39:43 PM »
typical.  I must be a prophetess to have so accurately guessed what one more christian will do.  Indeed, the usual last post of a theist is pretty much interchange able.  "I came on the forum.  I thought I had the one true answer and tried to claim I was the OneTrueChristian.  No one believed me and asked hard questions.  Suddenly, I needed to claim how I wasn't really interested at all and and how important something else was in my life. then I had to claim how I really did have the answers but couldn't bother to reveal them."

Applause, JD.  At least you did admit that you were intentionally being deceptive and selfish. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #456 on: July 12, 2011, 06:32:42 AM »
i dont consider it my duty to answer anyones questions and actually my motives for being on this site were partially selfish - seeking answers to my own questions from anyone that might answer. this goal was not achieved unfortunately.

Did you ever consider that your questions might have been answered if you had been bothered to continue the dialogue?  Or that making it clear that you have no intention of entering into a dialogue perhaps prevented some members from offering answers that might have been of use to you?  Food for thought perhaps.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6510
  • Darwins +849/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #457 on: July 12, 2011, 05:21:03 PM »
Hmmmmm. The arguments made for the validity of the bible are the exact same arguments made for the validity of the Quran. "Oral history is never wrong." "Why would people make this stuff up?" Etc.
 
So are both the bible and the Quran true? Or is is more likely that they are both false? :?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Benny

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 178
  • Darwins +16/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Hugs And Love
    • My YouTube channel
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #458 on: July 13, 2011, 10:21:27 PM »
What I mean about taking care of my family is this..I am here to witness to them.  My mother is an agnostic, my sister an atheist, my brother an atheist and my father is an atheist.  Currently, I have been called to witness to them.  After this, I will go where He calls me next.
Does Jesus have you on speed dial?  No?  Then how do you know that you have been called to witness them?  How will you know where to go next?
My question stands.  I wait patiently for a reply.
I'm here every now and again.
We're gonna rock down to Alexis Avenue, he makes the score go higher!

Offline Karl

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 393
  • Darwins +3/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #459 on: July 14, 2011, 01:15:00 AM »
Language evolution is unavoidable.
Very true, look at what happened to the English language in the US. And that's a relatively short period they had at their disposal. Even local dialects evolved in no time. Some of those are not understood easily by foreigners.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 01:16:49 AM by Karl »

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12209
  • Darwins +658/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #460 on: July 14, 2011, 07:45:12 AM »
Some of those are not understood easily by foreigners.

Some are not easily understood by other Americans.
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Avatar Of Belial

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 499
  • Darwins +30/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm not an Evil person; I just act like one!
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #461 on: July 14, 2011, 11:04:58 AM »
My question stands.  I wait patiently for a reply.

Unfourtunately, SoGgy bailed on us back in May, ten days after he registered his account. You are unlikely to get a response.
"You play make-believe every day of your life, and yet you have no concept of 'imagination'."
I do not have "faith" in science. I have expectations of science. "Faith" in something is an unfounded assertion, whereas reasonable expectations require a precedent.

Offline unshinbop

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #462 on: November 11, 2011, 10:56:01 PM »
God, and by God I mean the judeo-christian God, is not limited. 

That's our first problem, there is a whole class of Christians throughout the Catholic and Protestant denominations that call themselves "open-theist", saying God is limited in certain respects (the opposite of classical theism).  For example, God was "sorry" that he made man (Genesis 6), yet nothing in the context indicates that this language is anything other than literal.  If God knew the future infallibly, then, was he sorry he had made man before he made man?  That's what follows from infallible foreknowledge (being unlimited).   Finally, it doesn't matter if your God is not limited.  What matters is whether you can put your money where your mouth is.  If your God is not limited, what good does that information do us, if we cannot confirm it?  Your God then becomes just another in a long line of those who have claimed ominipotence but predictably failed and continued to fail the acid test.

Quote
Nothing is too difficult for Him to do.  He is God Almighty and can do anything.  It is just as easy for Him to heal an amputee as it is to raise someone from the dead. 


Can God save sinners who are too stubborn to admit that they need him?  You know, like a stubborn child who refuses to get out of the street after mom yells at him...as the car speeds toward him.  True love often VIOLATES the freewill of the loved persons to rescue them from their own stupidity.  If God can save stubborn humans who refuse to accept him by reason of their freewill, he can save everybody and there's no problem.  If human freewill gets in the way of God's salvific purpose, then God cannot do everything.  And here's one you haven't heard before:  If God can do everything, can he make a rock so heavy that he can't lift it?

Quote
The bible has testimony of several miracles which were of a greater order than healing a lost limb, so why this particular case is noteworthy to atheists I have no idea. 


Easy, because healing or not healing an amputated limb is the acid test.   And it is precisely the acid test that religion so predictably and consistently fails.

Quote
If God did heal an amputee, would you know about it? 


Not necessarily.  But if your God can do anything, then he can heal amputees publicly.  If God heals amputees privately, this truth does not benefit either side of this debate.  We can't disprove it, and you can't prove it.   In such a debate, all that counts is whether there is evidence for claims.  If you claim God can heal and amputee, you must show that he has, or explain the lack of evidence for such.  Our claim is simply that we have tested Christian claims and found them lacking.  Christians constantly talk about God's ability to heal, so the natural question, which should lay the matter to rest, is whether God has ever healed an amputee.

Quote
Do you have a list of every amputee in the world and what happens to them?  Why do you think God wouldn't do it?  Do you think He can't do it?


I think out position as atheists is that the failure of your alleged God to pass this acid test is precisely why we say there is no god to speak of, hence, there are no "abilities" of any divine being to debate in the first place.  We could just as well say that ghosts chose not to heal amputees, and then debate whether ghosts have this ability or not.  It would be a waste of time.  Meanwhile, children are raped and politicians become more corrupt by the minute on THIS earth.  I'd say it wouldn't even matter if you won this debate.  God's ability to heal amputees is so unreliable and sporadic, if at all, that we cannot go wrong to simply ignore the entire matter and devote our attention to other things that ARE capable of a solution that will bequeath real benefits to others.

Quote
You're going about this the wrong way, if you want to know anything about God.  You're trying to deconstruct something you don't understand.  It is literally impossible for an unbeliever to understand the bible.
 

You fundamentalists will read the same bible verse, even in the same version, and come up with contradictory interpretations.  Does John 1:13 prove the Calvinist doctrine of total inability?  Is Acts 2 a model for the modern church, or is it mere historical information about a dispensation that no longer applies?  Why would you bother telling us unbelievers that we cannot understand the bible, when the contradictions among bible fundamentalists prove that some of you find it equally impossible to understand the bible?  Why isn't the Holy Spirit opening the eyes of the incorrect fundamentalists, who in many cases have just as much bible education and prayer life and walking the straight and narrow as those who are correct?  When God hears a  Pentacostal and a Baptist pray about the meaning of Acts 2, does he just roll the dice to decide which faithful steward of his word that he will impart the correct interpretation to?

Quote
Personally, I haven't known many atheists who have ever tried.  Most of them seem to memorize a few passgaes they think helps their arguments and that's it.  Personally I think it's fairly ignorant to judge something you don't even understand yourself.

I agree, that's why I have studied the bible for many years and know it better than most of the Christians I have debated.

Quote
If you want to know if Jesus is real or not, put Him to the test.  With a sincere heart, pray to Him like this:

Jesus, if you do exist I want to know about it and I want to know you.  Please reveal yourself to me Jesus;  show me that you're real.

If you you do that Jesus will show you that He is real and that He is Almighty God.  Here is a word for you:

This is no test.  If we do this test, and then report back to you that we got no answer, you will insist that we weren't sincere enough, or didn't pray hard enough, or there was secret sin in our lives, etc,. etc,.  This is no "test", because everytime we get a result that doesn't match the answer YOU got, you automatically assume the test wasn't performed correctly.  Well if I pray to Zeus whether he is real, and all I get for an answer is silence...may I safely conclude that is because there is no real god Zeus to answer me in the first place?

or should I assume that Zeus is all-powerful, and maybe has higher mysterious reasons for not answering me on my schedule?

Quote
Matthew 11:28
Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest
God bless.

That might have made sense back when Jesus was alive, but it ceased any function except as literary inspiration after he died.  Right?  Dead men do not give rest to the living, and religious frauds have been known to dupe large numbers of people for centuries, correct?

And Acts 21 proves that the originanl first-century church was prone to believing false rumors about the apostles, so that the resurrection of Jesus being a mere rumor embellished into full blown doctrine remains on the table of options, correct?

Offline Turbo SS

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 263
  • Darwins +12/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: God does heal amputees
« Reply #463 on: November 15, 2011, 09:54:10 AM »
Indeed.  I wonder if JD will come back and respond to these posts, since they checked in today.  JD, if you are feeling too overwhelmed, you can request a one on one discussion.  I would like answers to my questions and any attempts you might have to rebut the facts I've shown you.

i continue to take up my daily quest. i am not exactly overwhelmed, more, temporarily disinterested. i responded to a few things, 10 people respond back to me. thats fine. i expect on an anti-god site that there would be far more anti-god people that pro-god people posting. i have a job, family, personal duties, and quite an array of personal hobbies and interests. as my interest in discussing these things waxes and wanes, i read or read and post.

i dont consider it my duty to answer anyones questions and actually my motives for being on this site were partially selfish - seeking answers to my own questions from anyone that might answer. this goal was not achieved unfortunately.

i may return to post again. but likely not in the near future. if you are in despirate need of answers to your questions, you can speculate as to what i may have written (some of your Surtr friends have already made attempts), or your can expand your question to include more selection than just myself, though i am such a great and envied person i can understand if you must absolutly have an answer from only myself. :)

ciao,

17

And theres the surrender.  Another christian pwned by the hard questions.