Author Topic: I believe  (Read 7286 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline voodoo child

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1801
  • Darwins +9/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: I believe
« Reply #87 on: December 21, 2010, 08:23:24 AM »
Poppies, mushrooms, cannabis, literally thousands of plants on this planet will get you high, or even kill you. During Jesus time, wine was prepared in led buckets.

More than likely the men who wrote the bible, were unaware and ripped daily on opium tea, opium smoke, and led laced wine .

I wonder what type of hallucinations these great writers of the bible might be experiencing?   :o
The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

Offline Gordon Freeman

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 493
  • Darwins +6/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Car je gol! - Emperor has no clothes!
    • Ateizam
Re: I believe
« Reply #88 on: December 21, 2010, 08:28:35 AM »
Laura, you don't think there are any naturally occurring 'drugs'? There are various types of hallucinogenic fungi (mushrooms) that, eaten in their perfectly natural state, will get you super stoned.

If your god exists he created those didn't he?

No, these got corrupted after the fall.  8) No, no, I am kidding. I just said that because there are believers who claim that. (-:
The bible is like our celebrity world: Beautiful from outside, but rotten from inside.
---me---

When you confront bible and logic, it is not logic that fails.
---me---

Offline Anfauglir

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5965
  • Darwins +371/-4
  • Gender: Male
Re: I believe
« Reply #89 on: December 21, 2010, 08:29:38 AM »
Is God to blame for everthing that has ever gone wrong in the world ask yourselves?

Where does "character" come from - for want of a better word?

An egg is fertilised, and the first stages of what will be a new being begins to grow.  I'm presuming that you will say it has a "soul", put there by god at some stage.   

Does god imbue that soul with a particular character?

If yes....then quite clearly god IS to blame for everything that being does, since it was made to think, to act, to be in a particular way, with a particular character - be it good, jealous, happy, vindictive, whatever.

If not....if that being, that soul, arrives in the world as a completely blank slate (which, incidentally, is contradicted by the Bible), then where does its character come from?  Answer is, it HAS to come from the environment it is raised in, the parents, the friends, the society.  With a truly blank initial soul, that is the only way character could develop.

But if character comes from the people it interacts with, then where did THEIR character come from?  From the people THEY interacted with...and so on, and so on back (if you believe the Bible) to the garden of Eden....where the two completely blank souls were influenced and developed according to the creatures they interacted with.  In other words, by god himself, and the other creatures that god deliberately created and placed there with them.  And so, again, god is to blame, for setting in motion the chain of events that led to the way things are today.

So to answer your question....YES.  If a creator god exists, then it IS responsible for everything that happens in the world - either by setting up a poorly thought-out initial set of circumstances, or (more supported Biblically) by instilling particular traits in the "soul" while still in the womb, and hence by determining before the first breath whether a person is a "good guy" or not.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 08:33:09 AM by Anfauglir »
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline hickdive

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 906
  • Darwins +32/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: I believe
« Reply #90 on: December 21, 2010, 08:49:59 AM »
what i was meaning God made the things in the original non dangerous form man took the things and made them into something else detremental to their health and well being

kind regards laura   

And what about the alcohol in this story?

http://www.ainglkiss.com/stories/water.htm
Stupidity, unlike intelligence, has no limits.

Online Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3762
  • Darwins +241/-6
  • Gender: Male
Re: I believe
« Reply #91 on: December 21, 2010, 08:52:46 AM »
Poppies, mushrooms, cannabis, literally thousands of plants on this planet will get you high, or even kill you. During Jesus time, wine was prepared in led buckets.

More than likely the men who wrote the bible, were unaware and ripped daily on opium tea, opium smoke, and led laced wine .

I wonder what type of hallucinations these great writers of the bible might be experiencing?   :o

From what I've heard, and therefore I am unsure of, that the caves in the area that Revelations was written have edible pychadelic moss.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline pianodwarf

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4331
  • Darwins +206/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • Je bois ton lait frappĂ©
Re: I believe
« Reply #92 on: December 21, 2010, 08:56:24 AM »
From what I've heard, and therefore I am unsure of, that the caves in the area that Revelations was written have edible pychadelic moss.

Yes, that definitely would explain a lot if it's true...
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Operator_020

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 396
  • Darwins +10/-1
  • Gender: Female
Re: I believe
« Reply #93 on: December 21, 2010, 09:04:54 AM »
Hi laura

what i was meaning God made the things in the original non dangerous form man took the things and made them into something else detremental to their health and well being

Maybe this will help give you some perspective:



Alcohol is produced naturally in fruit.  These animals get drunk, and apparently enjoy it, from eating older fruit with high alcohol content.
Former Moderator Account

Offline plethora

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3456
  • Darwins +60/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Metalhead, Family Man, IT Admin & Anti-Theist \m/
Re: I believe
« Reply #94 on: December 21, 2010, 09:15:06 AM »
Awesome post 020 ... that kills the argument about drugs not occurring naturally without human intervention.
The truth doesn't give a shit about our feelings.

Offline Gordon Freeman

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 493
  • Darwins +6/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Car je gol! - Emperor has no clothes!
    • Ateizam
Re: I believe
« Reply #95 on: December 21, 2010, 09:19:04 AM »
Hi laura

what i was meaning God made the things in the original non dangerous form man took the things and made them into something else detremental to their health and well being

Maybe this will help give you some perspective:



Alcohol is produced naturally in fruit.  These animals get drunk, and apparently enjoy it, from eating older fruit with high alcohol content.

Animals are beautiful people! It brings memories!  :D It's been a while. Thank you for this scene, you reminded me of some great moments and also provided a good point.
The bible is like our celebrity world: Beautiful from outside, but rotten from inside.
---me---

When you confront bible and logic, it is not logic that fails.
---me---

Offline laura1

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Darwins +3/-14
  • Gender: Female
  • Laura1
Re: I believe
« Reply #96 on: December 22, 2010, 03:13:56 AM »
Hi friends,


just a suggestion then if there is no god so no god is to blame for the mess in the world who is to blame for the mess the world is in, just an honest question, im not trying to be funny, who can i take my complaints to?


kind regards

laura
Laura1

Offline Gordon Freeman

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 493
  • Darwins +6/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Car je gol! - Emperor has no clothes!
    • Ateizam
Re: I believe
« Reply #97 on: December 22, 2010, 03:38:22 AM »
Hi friends,


just a suggestion then if there is no god so no god is to blame for the mess in the world who is to blame for the mess the world is in, just an honest question, im not trying to be funny, who can i take my complaints to?

Ditto, no god to blame, for he doesn't exist. No conflict for atheists. We use that argument when you claim that your god is good, and by following this logic, we point out that, IF your god exists, he is about to be blamed for such a world.
But if god doesn't exists who to blame, you ask. Why would you blame anyone? Why would you blame anyone for the fact that death exists? Or anything else in the world. No blame necessary. It's just the way it is. No blame unless humans are involved.

Why is there a need to blame or thank anyone? Why the fact that we don't like some things in nature or universe needs to lead to blame of someone? Why should I blame anyone that Sahara is a desert but not a jungle? Why would I blame anyone that it needs to be cold to snow? "I want to have a snow without needing to freeze myself! I blame you... someone!" How pointless is that? It's just the way it is.
The bible is like our celebrity world: Beautiful from outside, but rotten from inside.
---me---

When you confront bible and logic, it is not logic that fails.
---me---

Offline Anfauglir

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5965
  • Darwins +371/-4
  • Gender: Male
Re: I believe
« Reply #98 on: December 22, 2010, 03:54:51 AM »
...if there is no god so no god is to blame for the mess in the world who is to blame for the mess the world is in, just an honest question, im not trying to be funny, who can i take my complaints to?

Sorry, but I'm not going to answer this question yet - you've received a lot of posts (including one of mine) detailing how IF god does exist, the "mess" is clearly his fault, which you've not yet bothered to answer.  I see no reason why I should waste time carefully putting together yet another post that you are just going to ignore.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Agga

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4290
  • Darwins +27/-42
  • The Forum is made of its members.
Re: I believe
« Reply #99 on: December 22, 2010, 06:21:00 AM »
Sorry, Laura. That's not true.

Alcohol (which Jesus himself drank) is naturally occuring, and also man-made. The other drugs I listed are all totally naturally occuring psychoactive drugs, too.

All of those naturally occuring drugs do harm in varying degrees.

I think you should revisit your earlier claim and retract it.


Laura,

Rather than send me an email that dodges the issue, can you please answer this post in the thread. If not, I'm afraid i'll have to report you for stonewalling.


Thanks.
I've left WWGHA now, so do everyone else a favour and don't bother replying to my old posts and necromancing my threads.

Offline laura1

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Darwins +3/-14
  • Gender: Female
  • Laura1
Re: I believe
« Reply #100 on: December 22, 2010, 07:01:40 AM »
hi

Tradition has it that the fruit of the grape was called wine so what jesus drank and made was non alchohlic, but that im sure wont be a good answer to you guys, as for the drugs issue and the drunk animals etc I dont have all the answers, but the one post mentioned if there is no god we dont have to blame anything or anyone for anything, but the posts i received so far were quick to blame god if he does exist for everything thatsgone wrong, now if theres no god noyone needs to be blamed? doesnt make sense, humans get let off the hook then

kind regards laura 
Laura1

Offline Anfauglir

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5965
  • Darwins +371/-4
  • Gender: Male
Re: I believe
« Reply #101 on: December 22, 2010, 07:29:53 AM »
....the posts i received so far were quick to blame god if he does exist for everything thatsgone wrong, now if theres no god noyone needs to be blamed? doesnt make sense, humans get let off the hook then

Still waiting for you to address my post.  You believe in god, I have shown you how everything IS god's fault.  Do you intend to respond to that at all?

Humans let off the hook?  Hardly.  But there are two vital and important differences.

Firstly, "humans" are blessed with neither limitless power, nor the ability to see the future - traits commonly assumed that god has.  While we could therefore say that the state of the world today arises as a result of prvious human actions, we cannot blame humans in the same way we could blame god, because humans do not have the foresight to be able to say (for example) that the man who first said "wow...fermenting these grapes leads to a nice taste and a pleasant buzz" is therefore directly to BLAME for every alcohol related fatality, assault, or other crime.  A god with omniscience, however, would know that creating alcohol would lead to those terrible things - and so CAN be blamed for going ahead and creating it.

Second important difference, which again returns to the power and knowledge of god, but also to its eternal-ness (there's a better word that escapes me at the moment).  Here I am - and here you are - living what we believe are good and useful lives.  Neither one of us is responsible for the billions of tons of pollution in the world, neither of us are responsible for the droughts in Africa, neither of us are responsible for the gang killings in LA.  Yes - we MAY be slightly and partially responsible for a little bit of pollution, a little bit of child labour in the Phillipines....if we do not pay quite enough attention.  And so, no one individual carries any weight of responsibility or blame in the same way that an all-powerful god must.

And equally, like I said, we try to live good and useful lives.  For my part, I'm a full-time Union Rep and a school governor - so my entire working life and a good proportion of my personal time is spend trying to undo messes, or prevent them in the first place.  So before you tar me (and yourself) with responsibility and blame for "the mess the world is in", take a step back and consider just exactly what you are saying.  Individuals can be to blame, in greater or lesser degree, for problems.  But you can not blanket say "humans" are responsible for all messes.

THAT is why "humans" don't get held to the same level of responsibility as an all-powerful and all-knowing deity.

Now....is there any chance you will actually show some honesty and address some of these points?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3762
  • Darwins +241/-6
  • Gender: Male
Re: I believe
« Reply #102 on: December 22, 2010, 08:51:41 AM »
THAT is why "humans" don't get held to the same level of responsibility as an all-powerful and all-knowing deity.

Now....is there any chance you will actually show some honesty and address some of these points?

Exactly, and well said.

That's what gets me when a theist tries to flip the free will argument; Mankind is neither all powerful it cannot change the laws of physics. Nor cannot know the outcome of all its decisions. Furthermore there are problems caused systemicly the only very weathy and powerful individual could change, but are unlikely to do so because those systems help to keep them wealthy and powerful.

This "God" character has no such excuses. In fact, with complete power, no threats to that power, and complete foresight...no reasonable excuses can possibly exist.

 
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Operator_020

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 396
  • Darwins +10/-1
  • Gender: Female
Re: I believe
« Reply #103 on: December 22, 2010, 10:00:11 AM »
Hi laura

Tradition has it that the fruit of the grape was called wine so what jesus drank and made was non alchohlic,

It probably was alcoholic, but probably not as strong as the wine we have today.  In the first century they did not have water treatment plants to ensure their drinking water was clean, so the often avoided drinking water.  Instead, they drank beverages that were slightly alcoholic.  The alcohol killed the dangerous bacteria.  This was a common practice even through the Medieval age.

as for the drugs issue and the drunk animals etc I dont have all the answers,

You do not have to have all the answers, but those facts should make you reconsider your position. They should lead you to think about what you believe and why and perhaps come to some different conclusions. That is not to say you should stop believing in a god.  But your perspective should change a little bit, don't you think?

happy posting
020
Former Moderator Account

Online Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3762
  • Darwins +241/-6
  • Gender: Male
Re: I believe
« Reply #104 on: December 22, 2010, 11:39:49 AM »
Hi laura

Tradition has it that the fruit of the grape was called wine so what jesus drank and made was non alchohlic,

It probably was alcoholic, but probably not as strong as the wine we have today.  In the first century they did not have water treatment plants to ensure their drinking water was clean, so the often avoided drinking water.  Instead, they drank beverages that were slightly alcoholic.  The alcohol killed the dangerous bacteria.  This was a common practice even through the Medieval age.


Actually it was true as late as the 1850s. Beer was touted as a "healthier Beverage" because of the unknown microorganisms that plauged mosty city water supplies, and beer drinkers didn't get as sick as much as those who drank said tainted water.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline sammylama

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 793
  • Darwins +8/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Look at me and my bad self.
Re: I believe
« Reply #105 on: December 22, 2010, 12:13:17 PM »

Tradition has it that the fruit of the grape was called wine so what jesus drank and made was non alchohlic...


Is this what you really meanI heard this from someone that I thought had knowledge on the subject.  He/she made a convincing argument and gave me an answer that took away the cognitive dissonance that I experienced when I thought about the notion of "my lord" drinking alcohol.
You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe.
--  Carl Sagan

Offline sammylama

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 793
  • Darwins +8/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Look at me and my bad self.
Re: I believe
« Reply #106 on: December 22, 2010, 12:29:36 PM »
just a suggestion then if there is no god so no god is to blame for the mess in the world who is to blame for the mess the world is in, just an honest question, im not trying to be funny, who can i take my complaints to?

Whatever perceived "mess" there is in the world could, would and should be placed squarely upon the shoulders of humanity itself.  Obviously. 

Who can you take your complaints to?  How about no one.  How about you keep them to yourself and put the energy toward finding a solution?  A real life, down to earth human solution. 



edit: spelling
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 01:21:00 PM by sammylama »
You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe.
--  Carl Sagan

Offline hickdive

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 906
  • Darwins +32/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: I believe
« Reply #107 on: December 22, 2010, 12:55:25 PM »
hi

Tradition has it that the fruit of the grape was called wine so what jesus drank and made was non alchohlic, but that im sure wont be a good answer to you guys,

You're right, it isn't a good answer. Ancient wine appears to have been perfectly strong enought to make you drunk, for example; Genesis 9:20-21.

Do you have any evidence, beyond mere assertion, that 'wine' refers to anything other than fermented grape juice? For example, we call fermented grape juice 'wine' and unfermented grape juice, well, 'grape juice'. So in the language of the bible 'wine' means either? Except when we read of Noah drinking himself into unconsciousness?

When you buy grape juice, if it hasn't been given UHT, which aisle is it in in the supermarket? Even if you do buy UHT grape juice, what do you have to do to keep it fresh once opened?

Stupidity, unlike intelligence, has no limits.

Offline Agga

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4290
  • Darwins +27/-42
  • The Forum is made of its members.
Re: I believe
« Reply #108 on: December 23, 2010, 11:14:33 AM »
Hi laura1,

Don't forget that you have some dificult errors to correct in your earlier posts.

Being truthful and honest is a virtue.
I've left WWGHA now, so do everyone else a favour and don't bother replying to my old posts and necromancing my threads.

Offline AmyLyn999

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: I believe
« Reply #109 on: December 23, 2010, 12:48:58 PM »
just a suggestion then if there is no god so no god is to blame for the mess in the world who is to blame for the mess the world is in, just an honest question, im not trying to be funny, who can i take my complaints to?
Hi Laura,
Why blame God?  Why blame anyone, for that matter? 

Does blame really accomplish anything?  I don't think it does.  All blame does is put the responsibility for fixing *insert problem* into someone else's hands so you don't have to deal with it yourself. 

Take your complaints to yourself and find solutions so you can help change the "mess" in the world in your own sphere of influence.  No single person can completely change the world, but you can do your part in promoting change.


Also, I think that most religious people(not saying you in particular, it's just a thought I'm having) are religious because they just can't accept that the world is a messed up place.  They don't want to accept that shit just happens with absolutely no reason behind it. 

But unfortunately that's reality, and for me personally... accepting and dealing with reality is much easier than trying to rationalize it and try to make sense out of it by believing in God.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 11534
  • Darwins +563/-22
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: I believe
« Reply #110 on: December 24, 2010, 11:03:29 AM »
laura

I'd like to know your response to mod 020's point here:

You do not have to have all the answers, but those facts should make you reconsider your position. They should lead you to think about what you believe and why and perhaps come to some different conclusions. That is not to say you should stop believing in a god.  But your perspective should change a little bit, don't you think?
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline HAL

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5003
  • Darwins +98/-17
  • Gender: Male
Re: I believe
« Reply #111 on: March 21, 2012, 02:18:45 PM »
This topic is over 2 years old, it's considered bad practice to resurrect topics this old.