Author Topic: 50 answers to the "proofs" against God.  (Read 1660 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline The Doctor

50 answers to the "proofs" against God.
« on: August 02, 2008, 01:53:01 AM »
First of all I would like to ask who ever wrote those 50 "proofs" on what they were planning to accomplish when they started. Did you set out to find God or to prove that he didn't exist? You argue with science, yet that's not how science works.

Also, why didn't you (you=author of the proofs) leave any contact details? I'm posting here because you didn't leave any, did you not want to be disproved?

Well I'll get to it now.

Proof #1
I'm going to annoy you and tell you a modern day parable.

A man is sitting at home and hears a warning on the TV that a flood is coming and will wipe out everything and everyone is they don't get out right away. This man, being christian, says to himself "Na, I'll be right. God will save me :)"

Not long before the flood waters rise, some of his friends come past in a car and offer him a lift out of the area. Sure enough he says "God will save me"

The flood waters start to rise and some people come past in a boat and make the same offer to which he gives the same reply.

The flood waters rise to a point where he must stand on top of his house, and a rescuehelicopter comes over and they also offer him a way out. But he assures them that God will save him, and they fly off.

Well, the guys drowns and goes to heaven and of course askes God why didn't he save him. God says "I sent a car a boat and a helicopter, what more did you want?"

My point being, can you see the answer to your prayer? God's solution may not be the one you are expecting. Also, do you think God would give you drugs if you asked for them?


Proof #2

Refer to the above



Proof #3

If you actually read the Bible (which after reading your website I doubt you actually did) you would see that it says that people broke away from God and invented their own gods. Also, you are right in the other religions having similarities to old testament stories but these are just stories, parables if you will. Have you considered the possibility that they are copying us?


Proof #4

Again, refer to answer 1


Proof #5

"Put to death" by this God means that they will go to hell IF they don't repent etc... God isn't demanding blood, the Bible references going to heaven/salvation as "Having life" or "Having life in me" so not going to heaven/no salvation would be referred to as death.


Proof #6

You used Hitler and his handy work as an example here, I might add that God says (in reference to the Jews) that he will "Bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you". I don't remember Hitler winning, or surviving WWII for that matter. Answer 1 can also kinda apply here.


Proof #7

About your coin flipping example, try it (without praying if you like) and you'll find that if you flip it 100 times you won't get exactly 50 of each.

And onto Santa, man can fly. We have these cool things called "Airplanes" and "Helicopters" google them if you have no idea what I'm on about.
Houses without chimneys have these holes on the sides known as "Doors" and "Windows" google for more info.
I have also seen fireproof suites, Hollywood uses them all the time for stunts and such.
There are ways to cheat security systems.
   
Science, the very thing with which you argue is can disprove you in this matter. Is science right? Or is it wrong? Of course you will say wrong, if science can be wrong here can't science be wrong about God's existence as well?


Proof #8

All you have done here is prove that all those elements are natural and the argument is as dumb as "I have a arm, therefore there is no God"


Proof #9

And yet again, refer to answer 1


Proof #10

Answer 1 again


Proof #11

The resurrected Jesus appeared to the 12, one reason why I believe you haven't actually read the Bible.

Evidence of Jesus' miracles, ever heard of the shroud of Turin? Science has proven it to be from the same area and time as Jesus.



Proof #12

Magic (as defined by wikipedia) "is a conceptual system that asserts human ability to control the natural world"
Keyword there, "Human" God is not human, and yes Jesus was but Jesus is God in human form. For example, let's use a computer game as an example. When you perform an action in the game, who is responsible for the action taking place? The game character or the player? Would the character be able to function if no one was playing the game?


Proof #13

"Bought with thy money" Employees maybe? Think mate, think.


Proof #14

So I say "I am God!"

You say "Prove it"

I say "Well you got me there" therefore I am not God.

Jesus did prove it to those whom asked him, yet again I prove you haven't read the Bible.



Proof #15

Paul was also seeking out and killing Christians, read the Bible!


Proof #16

The Israelites where also at war at the time, God was telling them how to win. Does this mean that war is wrong? That the Israelites should have just done nothing and be conquered?



EDIT: and here are some more


Proof #17

First of all, those who talk about Leprechauns also say they are fake. The rest, I have already answered.


Proof #18

I laugh at your proof here, you clearly have not read the Bible and have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.


Proof #19

That's what you have to do to be perfect as you say Jesus said. God also says that we can have luxuries if we work for them. Just because I have internet access doesn't mean I'm damned. I work for the money to pay for it, those who maintain it also work for it and are payed for their work.


Proof #20

Can that be said for EVERY SINGLE CHURCH? If not, your point is invalid. Some churches are better off yes, but what about the people who go to those churches? You don't see giant magnificent buildings in poverty stricken areas. Someone(s) with tons of cash have donated, what would be an insignificant amount to them, to have such a building.


Proof #21

Eating his flesh and drinking his blood refers to holy communion, not literally cannibalism. Yet further proof you have no idea what you are talking about.


Proof #22

"They shall be put to death" I have already explained this. Why, may I ask, are you repeating points?


Proof #23

Yet another repeated point. God doesn't care about how shiny his churches are, that's us. We like shiny churches, but we don't go to extraordinary lengths to get those shiny churches. And you also used just one church as the example again, at the very least you should use one church from each christian denomination.


Proof #24

Yet again I laugh at this, how is religion spreading STDs? I ask you.


Proof #25

I heard a talk recently where the guy giving the talk proved there and then the existence of the human soul. He asked for a volunteer whom he stood next to him on the stage. He then said to the crowd of over 3,000 "Look at <insert name here>'s body", every one looked at him and laughed. He told us to stop and then said, "Look at <insert name here>". The whole crowd of over 3,000 people was dead silent. Note that he did not say to look at his body the second time, but what else is there to look at? When we looked at his body we laughed, then we looked again and did not laugh. What else is there to look at when we look at him?


Proof #26

Not all knowing? All I can see is that you don't understand it, we don't understand it but that doesn't mean that God doesn't understand


Proof #27

Ok then, if life is simply chemicals. Make life, go grab some of those chemicals and make life.


Proof #28

Atheism itself is a religion in a sense as it requires one to reject gods and there for atheism is a contradiction by your own terms.


Proof #29

You're repeating points again (running out of ideas are we?)


Proof #30

God does place a burden on Adam. Also, evolution is sexist as every major period in man's evolution, male humans cannot bare children. Evil evolution, bad! Naughty! *Rolls eyes*


Proof #31

Repeated point. I'm gonna guess that only about 30 of these won't be repeated stuff


Proof #32

Wow, another repeat.


Proof #33

Something unique, there's a shock. Now Jesus died to prove to us how much God loves us, the ultimate act of love would be to die for someone you love.


Proof #34

"I sent a car a boat and a helicopter, what more do you want?"


Proof #35

I'd call dying for us in that category.


Proof #36

Repeat, I'm getting sick of these repeats.


Proof #37

Did I read that correctly? This doesn't prove God is fake? I must ask at this point if you are on drugs. But then again, you can't be blamed for writing that, because you didn't. Your computer wrote it.


Proof #38

Just because someone makes a law doesn't mean everyone is going to follow it. Just because I am a Christian doesn't render me incapable of sinning, other wise we would only need one commandment "Be Christian" and we'd all be rendered incapable of murder and such.  Just look at crime today, lots of people brake laws. Just because the Bible says not to doesn't mean that we are all going to be perfect. Also, look up annulments. People claim that they are the same thing when they are not.


Proof #39

Lets take another bit of "good news". Say you have cancer, a doctor comes along and says "I have the cure for cancer" it is up to you to choose to have the treatment, not the doctor.


Proof #40

Whoa, I almost forgot about you repeating points before. Thanks for reminding me :)


Proof #41

I said thanks, you can stop there.


Proof #42

I said stop.


Proof #43

"According to the Bible God incarnated himself. He created an entire human body named Jesus. That is not a "clue" -- that is a huge, obvious piece of evidence."

Wow, you're smarter than I thought. You have no idea how truthful that statement is.


Proof #44

And you where doing so well with that last statement, REPEAT!!


Proof #45

Noah's ark is a parable. Some Christians may disagree with me, so using this is an invalid argument to use as prove against God.


Proof #46

I find that "Non-Believers" are the ones mostly getting STDs and commiting murders and such. Have you been living under a rock?


Proof #47

This is another one of those petty little things that the separate denominations argue about. So you can't use it here. Some Christians believe God used evolution in creation while some don't


Proof #48

Another repeat.


Proof #49

These people who speak for God that you mentioned, my first answer could be applied here as someone who got in the car/boat/helicopter. IE: Someone who recognizes God and acts accordingly.


Proof #50

Jesus has appeared to people since the occurrences in the Bible. Actually research what you attack before you attack it.





I went back and counted 14 repeated points.



Now, without the Bible. I shall prove God's existence.


This is from a short write-up which answers the question of whether or not God can be proved.



Can the existence of God be proved?

Before we answer this question, it is important to remember that the human mind is designed for truth, and it is restless until it attains the truth. Therefore out task should not be to “prove” something just because it suits us, but rather, to find the truth. In the past it had happened that people have attempted to prove, for example, that God does not exist, because it suits them to believe this, not because it is the truth.

The other thing that must be borne in mind is that if God does exist (as will be apparent when the various proofs are digested) He must be infinite and immaterial, and it would therefore not be possible to examine Him “under a microscope”

Thus, in our attempt to discover whether God exists, the uses of scientific instruments (such as telescopes, carbon dating) are useless as they deal with material realities. Unfortunately, the inability to find God in this way has also led some people to believe that he does not exist.

The answer to our question is that it can be proved that God exists by the use of our reason alone. Or, to be more precise, it can be proved by logical argument that God cannot not exist.

There are a number of good ways of demonstrating God’s existence, and many volumes have been written on this topic. Needless to say, it would be unrealistic to give exhaustive proofs in this limited thread. Therefore, we shall set down only four proofs of God’s existence, briefly.

The first proof is the argument from motion. We observe in reality things that are in motion. (Here motion means any sort of change, not just change of place.) Now, whatever is in motion must have been put in motion by another. If we move up the chain of movers, we must eventually come to a first mover, which was itself unmoved by any other, but caused motion in other things. The first mover must of course be God, since if there were no first mover, there could be no movement at all.

You might be wondering why it is not possible to have an endless chain of movers. The answer to this is best demonstrated by way of analogy. If there were no first mover, then the universe would be like a freight-train moving without an engine. Each carriage’s motion could be explained ostensibly by the carriage in front of it. The guard can moves because the sheep van pulls it, the sheep van moves because the refrigerated van pulls it etc. But there is no engine to pull the first car, and thus the whole train. That would be impossible of course, but that is what the universe would be like without God: impossible. Therefore there must be an “engine” which does not get it’s motion from another, but rather causes motion in other things.

The second argument concerns causality. In the world we observe things that have be caused. My parents caused me, my grandparents caused them etc. No-one have ever observed anything which has caused itself: for if something was to cause itself it would have to exist prior to itself, which is impossible. Now the universe is like a great chain of causes with each link being held up by the one above it. But if there is no God the whole chain is suspended by nothing, which is impossible. If there was no (uncaused) first cause, there would be no subsequent causes. But we know that there are causes and effects in reality, therefore there must be a first cause – God.

You might be wondering why there cannot be an endless chain of causes, but we know that every “thing” (anything composed of matter) has a definite starting point in history. Some try to get around this problem by proposing that the universe as a whole is eternal, but this too must have been caused by another, otherwise it would have to have existed prior to itself in order to cause itself, which is absurd.

The third proof considers possibility and necessity. It is more complicated than others, and runs thus. We find in nature things that are possible to be and not be, since things are found to be cause in time and to corrupt in time as well. For example, there was a time (before my conception) when I was not, and sooner or later I will die and my body will corrupt (my body will no longer “be”). And before my car was made it was not, and sooner or later it will exist no longer. But it is impossible for these always to exist, for “things” are contingent, which means that they have a definite starting point in time. Now, it follows that every material thing, at some time was not. We know from the previous proof that if there was a time when nothing existed, then even now nothing would exist. Therefore something must exist, the existence of which is necessary. This “necessary thing” can not have been cause by another: it must have in itself its own necessity, not receiving it from another, but causing existence in other things. This necessary Being we know as God.

The fourth argument states that where there is design there must be a designer. Since we observe the existence of design throughout the universe, there must be a universal designer. You might be wondering why we must accept the first premise of this argument, but everyone accepts this principle in practice. For example, if an atheist was walking along a deserted beach and discovered a wristwatch lying on the sand, he wouldn’t be silly enough to say “Wow! Look at this watch! Isn’t it amazing how the eroding rocks and the shifting sands, and the action of the waves over aeons of time have brought these intricate parts together, and made this working watch!” No, he would be more likely to say, “I wonder how this watch got here? Who owns it?”, and possibly even look at the brand name to see “Who made it?”

A story is told of two astronomers who were friends: one was religious and the other was an atheist. The atheist visited his astronomer friend one day and saw on a table a working model of our solar system. The atheist remarked how brilliant the model was, and asked his friend who made it.
“No-one made it”, said the believer, “it just happened!”
The atheist asked again, “who made it?”
“No-one!” was the reply.
“No, seriously, who made it?” he asked again.
The believer laughed. He told his friend how absurd nit was that he was certain that  the model must have been made by someone, yet he had convinced himself that he whole universe, (far superior to any model humans could make), could have just “happened”

Therefore, it can be proved from reason alone that God must exist: “blind faith” is not required and atheism is an unreasonably assumption.
     
 







« Last Edit: August 02, 2008, 03:38:22 AM by The Doctor »

Offline CosmicScherzo

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 411
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • What would Jesus brew?
Re: 50 answers to the "proofs" against God.
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2008, 02:25:48 AM »
You argue with science, yet that's not how science works.

So, we don't assume a conclusion that God is there, so that's not how science works?

Also, why didn't you (you=author of the proofs) leave any contact details? I'm posting here because you didn't leave any, did you not want to be disproved?

His name is Marshall Brain.  He's also the author of How Stuff Works.  He also has his own TV show.  Whatever your disagreements with him, he can't be accused of keeping a low profile.

My point being, can you see the answer to your prayer? God's solution may not be the one you are expecting.

A single, verifiable, unambiguous miracle.  Is that too much to ask?

If you actually read the Bible (which after reading your website I doubt you actually did)

While I can't speak for the author, many here have read the bible quite extensively, and are more well-versed in it than most christians.

you would see that it says that people broke away from God and invented their own gods.
 

Amazing how easy it is to make up a god, no?

Also, you are right in the other religions having similarities to old testament stories but these are just stories, parables if you will. Have you considered the possibility that they are copying us?

Have you considered the possibility that yours is just another one of them?

I don't remember Hitler winning, or surviving WWII for that matter.

Nor did millions of others, on both sides of the front.  What's the point?

About your coin flipping example, try it (without praying if you like) and you'll find that if you flip it 100 times you won't get exactly 50 of each.

Law of Averages.  Look it up.

Science, the very thing with which you argue is can disprove you in this matter. Is science right? Or is it wrong? Of course you will say wrong, if science can be wrong here can't science be wrong about God's existence as well?

Science in itself does not postulate anything, so it can't be wrong.  If something is disproven, then we've learned something, and science is the method we've learned it by.

Evidence of Jesus' miracles, ever heard of the shroud of Turin? Science has proven it to be from the same area and time as Jesus.

That is false.

I notice you have a higher opinion of science when it suits your own purposes.

Jesus did prove it to those whom asked him, yet again I prove you haven't read the Bible.

How was that proven?  The bible was written by men, and proves nothing in itself.

The Israelites where also at war at the time, God was telling them how to win. Does this mean that war is wrong? That the Israelites should have just done nothing and be conquered?

Why bother creating all those non-Israelites if they're just a nuisance to be eliminated?  Further evidence the bible was written by Bronze-age nomad warriors.  Why would an omnipotent god display such an "us-and-them" mentality?
"What claim has your piety on my deference?"

Offline The Doctor

Re: 50 answers to the "proofs" against God.
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2008, 03:53:35 AM »
So, we don't assume a conclusion that God is there, so that's not how science works?

I've added a heap more to my original post, go read it.


His name is Marshall Brain.  He's also the author of How Stuff Works.  He also has his own TV show.  Whatever your disagreements with him, he can't be accused of keeping a low profile.

Yes he can, he does not have anything what so ever on his site to even so much as hint to his identity. I don't even think it says he is a he.

A single, verifiable, unambiguous miracle.  Is that too much to ask?

Check answer 1

While I can't speak for the author, many here have read the bible quite extensively, and are more well-versed in it than most christians.

And you come to that conclusion how?

Amazing how easy it is to make up a god, no?

It's even easier not to have a God

Have you considered the possibility that yours is just another one of them?

Yes, but I believe I am correct as I have evidence to back up my claims. The Popes can trace themselves back to St. Peter who met Jesus and, as I understand it, spent a lot of time talking to him and ended up running his church on Earth. And that's just one bit

Nor did millions of others, on both sides of the front.  What's the point?

He used the Holocaust as an example of "No one doing nothing" but God kept his promise, Hitler lost. And Nazis everywhere aren't really to highly thought of are they?

Law of Averages.  Look it up.

Prove me wrong then, show me a coin being flipped 100 times and landing on either side EXACTLY 50 TIMES

Science in itself does not postulate anything, so it can't be wrong.  If something is disproven, then we've learned something, and science is the method we've learned it by.

If science can't be wrong, then it can't be disproven.

That is false.

I notice you have a higher opinion of science when it suits your own purposes.

So science is wrong here then? And I don't change my opinion of science, I challenge that people define science as something and then present something else and say "Science!"

How was that proven?  The bible was written by men, and proves nothing in itself.

So men can't prove anything? Those men were there, the men who argue against them where not.

The 2000 Sydney Olympics were pathetic.

Do you believe my statement? I wasn't there, but what the hey.

Why bother creating all those non-Israelites if they're just a nuisance to be eliminated?  Further evidence the bible was written by Bronze-age nomad warriors.  Why would an omnipotent god display such an "us-and-them" mentality?

They chose to be that way. God created everyone with an equal opportunity to follow him, they chose not to.

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: 50 answers to the "proofs" against God.
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2008, 09:42:00 AM »
The fourth argument states that where there is design there must be a designer. Since we observe the existence of design throughout the universe, there must be a universal designer. You might be wondering why we must accept the first premise of this argument, but everyone accepts this principle in practice. For example, if an atheist was walking along a deserted beach and discovered a wristwatch lying on the sand, he wouldn’t be silly enough to say “Wow! Look at this watch! Isn’t it amazing how the eroding rocks and the shifting sands, and the action of the waves over aeons of time have brought these intricate parts together, and made this working watch!” No, he would be more likely to say, “I wonder how this watch got here? Who owns it?”, and possibly even look at the brand name to see “Who made it?”

A story is told of two astronomers who were friends: one was religious and the other was an atheist. The atheist visited his astronomer friend one day and saw on a table a working model of our solar system. The atheist remarked how brilliant the model was, and asked his friend who made it.
“No-one made it”, said the believer, “it just happened!”
The atheist asked again, “who made it?”
“No-one!” was the reply.
“No, seriously, who made it?” he asked again.
The believer laughed. He told his friend how absurd nit was that he was certain that  the model must have been made by someone, yet he had convinced himself that he whole universe, (far superior to any model humans could make), could have just “happened”

Therefore, it can be proved from reason alone that God must exist: “blind faith” is not required and atheism is an unreasonably assumption.
     

Ah, the Argument from Design - an argument by analogy.  Such arguments are extremely weak, as they rely on the fact that if two things share some characteristics, they must therefore share other characteristics.

Example: Strawberries - a small, red, squishy berry - are good to eat.  Put a raspberry in front of me (small, red, squishy berry) and the argument from analogy says it, too, will be good to eat.  And it is.  But do the same with a Yew Berry (small, red, squishy berry), and claim that, therefore, it too is good to eat, and you will be in a world of hurt.  Couple dozen Yew Berries, and you will be dead - very, very painfully.

Th argument also fails as it attempts to compare a man-made artefact against something that is NOT man made.  In what way is a watch and a solar system comparable?  Because they are "complex" is the usual argument, but is that sufficient?  I would say that a watch and a universe are far TOO dissimilar for an argument from analogy to work - they don't have enough in common to make the argument work.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline dylanfujii

Re: 50 answers to the "proofs" against God.
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2008, 12:41:30 PM »
JFC! how much time did you waste writing that.  Your not gonna change our minds so give it up.  I'm not gonna waste my time arguing, but how you say many religion are copying the old testament, as I recall there is a Greek myth that is almost exactly like the story of Noah's ark, but it took place before.  Maybe God is just a biter who steal people's ideas.  Also answer 1 is actually a religious joke, no proof. 

Offline Dragnet

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1208
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • iustus res "We just want the facts"
Re: 50 answers to the "proofs" against God.
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2008, 12:56:35 PM »
The only real issue I take with your first cause argument is that you attribute it to a specific god.
The one you choose to believe in.
I see no reason to have to conclude that the prime mover was any kind of of god.
I can see it quite differently.
Matter has always existed and it's current configuration is a product of constant phased cyclic changes in matter and energy.
Because we can't determine the beginning of time there is no reason to conclude that YOUR god had anything to do with it.
I am responsible with my actions NOW so I don't HAVE to be responsible for them later.

Offline The Doctor

Re: 50 answers to the "proofs" against God.
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2008, 04:37:14 PM »
The only real issue I take with your first cause argument is that you attribute it to a specific god.
The one you choose to believe in.

It can be applied to any god.

I see no reason to have to conclude that the prime mover was any kind of of god.
I can see it quite differently.
Matter has always existed and it's current configuration is a product of constant phased cyclic changes in matter and energy.
Because we can't determine the beginning of time there is no reason to conclude that YOUR god had anything to do with it.

Has always existed, technically true. Matter has existed since the beginning of time, and has thus existed for all time and so technically has always existed. So it's an empty argument. But what started the big bang? Before the big bang there was no matter, correct? So what exploded in this bang? I have no doubt that matter "Existed for all time" as I have said, but before that? Hmmm?

Offline Codswallop

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1294
  • Darwins +1/-0
  • Cod helps those who help themselves.
Re: 50 answers to the "proofs" against God.
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2008, 05:08:35 PM »
Re: Proof #1

Look up the word "proof." Your story is about ambiguity. Proof is never ambiguous.

Re: Proof #3

If you actually read the Bible...

A lot of us have read the Bible more (and more thoroughly) than you. Some of us can do passably well in the original languages. A few are former pastors and ministers of the Gospel. We've read the book.

Have you considered the possibility that they are copying us?

That they stole their made-up stories from your made-up stories? Yep.

Re: Proof #5

Perhaps you are unaware of the death toll exacted by the god of the Bible. Some estimates of the total number of biblically commanded or approved deaths run well over a million, including women and children.


Re: Proof #6

I might add that God says (in reference to the Jews) that he will "Bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you".

This is an odd comment. Is this your way of saying the Jews got what was coming to them? Or is the death of 6 million a blessing? Weird.

Re: Proof #7

About your coin flipping example, try it (without praying if you like) and you'll find that if you flip it 100 times you won't get exactly 50 of each.

Not ever? I'll take that bet.

Re: Proof #11

The resurrected Jesus appeared to the 12, one reason why I believe you haven't actually read the Bible.

Evidence of Jesus' miracles, ever heard of the shroud of Turin? Science has proven it to be from the same area and time as Jesus.

Oh dear. I have just one question about these statements: What would you NOT believe? What is the standard that makes your BS detector go off?

I'll stop now. This is plenty for the moment. I can do more later if you want.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2008, 10:03:08 PM by Codswallop »
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons."
             --Gene Wilder as The Waco Kid, Blazing Saddles

Offline Ambassador Pony

  • You keep what you kill.
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 6858
  • Darwins +71/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • illuminatus
Re: 50 answers to the "proofs" against God.
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2008, 07:58:50 PM »
BM

LOL
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Generous George

  • Guest
Re: 50 answers to the "proofs" against God.
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2008, 09:38:24 PM »
It almost makes me want to cry.   :-[

Offline CosmicScherzo

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 411
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • What would Jesus brew?
Re: 50 answers to the "proofs" against God.
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2008, 03:24:50 AM »
So, we don't assume a conclusion that God is there, so that's not how science works?

I've added a heap more to my original post, go read it.

It's late here, and yours is a very long post.  If you want me to address a specific point, show it to me and I'll oblige.

His name is Marshall Brain.  He's also the author of How Stuff Works.  He also has his own TV show.  Whatever your disagreements with him, he can't be accused of keeping a low profile.

Yes he can, he does not have anything what so ever on his site to even so much as hint to his identity. I don't even think it says he is a he.

It's no secret, and you're aware of it now.

A single, verifiable, unambiguous miracle.  Is that too much to ask?

Check answer 1

I didn't see anything to make me amend my previous statement.

While I can't speak for the author, many here have read the bible quite extensively, and are more well-versed in it than most christians.

And you come to that conclusion how?

By speaking extensively with members of both sides.

Amazing how easy it is to make up a god, no?

It's even easier not to have a God

The sleeping in on Sunday part, maybe.  The taking responsibility for your own life part, not so much.

Have you considered the possibility that yours is just another one of them?

Yes, but I believe I am correct as I have evidence to back up my claims. The Popes can trace themselves back to St. Peter who met Jesus and, as I understand it, spent a lot of time talking to him and ended up running his church on Earth. And that's just one bit

If second- and third-hand accounts that are over two thousand years old and translated countless times while contradicting itself in several key areas is what you base your worldview on, I don't even know where to begin.

He used the Holocaust as an example of "No one doing nothing" but God kept his promise, Hitler lost. And Nazis everywhere aren't really to highly thought of are they?

Jews were expelled from England for over a century.  England is still around.

Hitler's defeat had many causes, the Holocaust among the least of them, if counted at all.

Law of Averages.  Look it up.

Prove me wrong then, show me a coin being flipped 100 times and landing on either side EXACTLY 50 TIMES

I see you didn't look it up.  The Law of Averages states that the more times the coin is flipped, the closer to 50% the ratio will be.

Science in itself does not postulate anything, so it can't be wrong.  If something is disproven, then we've learned something, and science is the method we've learned it by.

If science can't be wrong, then it can't be disproven.

Again, science per se does not say anything.  If I have no opinion, how can I be wrong?

You have to assert something to be right or wrong.  Science is the process by which we check these assertons for validity.

That is false.

I notice you have a higher opinion of science when it suits your own purposes.

So science is wrong here then? And I don't change my opinion of science, I challenge that people define science as something and then present something else and say "Science!"

If you're going to use this example, please provide the data which shows the shroud to be authentic.  If seen plenty that points in the opposite direction.  Carbon dating suggests a medieval origin.

How was that proven?  The bible was written by men, and proves nothing in itself.

So men can't prove anything? Those men were there, the men who argue against them where not.

The 2000 Sydney Olympics were pathetic.

Do you believe my statement? I wasn't there, but what the hey.

To use this argument you need to assume that the bible is 100% factual.  Can you prove this to be the case?

Why bother creating all those non-Israelites if they're just a nuisance to be eliminated?  Further evidence the bible was written by Bronze-age nomad warriors.  Why would an omnipotent god display such an "us-and-them" mentality?

They chose to be that way. God created everyone with an equal opportunity to follow him, they chose not to.

Even those in the Americas or East Asia or sub-Saharan Africa at the time, whom he neglected to brief about his existence and concern?  What opportunity were they given to follow him.  The only wrongdoing for given for non-Israelites in the bible was not being Israelites.

If God really made everyone, why would he have a "chosen people" at all?
"What claim has your piety on my deference?"

Offline Dragnet

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1208
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • iustus res "We just want the facts"
Re: 50 answers to the "proofs" against God.
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2008, 12:34:47 PM »
The only real issue I take with your first cause argument is that you attribute it to a specific god.
The one you choose to believe in.

It can be applied to any god.

I see no reason to have to conclude that the prime mover was any kind of of god.
I can see it quite differently.
Matter has always existed and it's current configuration is a product of constant phased cyclic changes in matter and energy.
Because we can't determine the beginning of time there is no reason to conclude that YOUR god had anything to do with it.

Has always existed, technically true. Matter has existed since the beginning of time, and has thus existed for all time and so technically has always existed. So it's an empty argument. But what started the big bang? Before the big bang there was no matter, correct? So what exploded in this bang? I have no doubt that matter "Existed for all time" as I have said, but before that? Hmmm?

I do not subscribe to the Big Bang as being the beginning of anything more than what we can currently see. Time is a concept for which a beginning is nebulous at best.
I am responsible with my actions NOW so I don't HAVE to be responsible for them later.

Offline sparhawk

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 159
  • Darwins +0/-0
Re: 50 answers to the "proofs" against God.
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2008, 12:55:39 PM »
I stopped reading after you said, "Evidence of Jesus' miracles, ever heard of the shroud of Turin? Science has proven it to be from the same area and time as Jesus."

Where did you get that gem, Doctor?  ::)
Why am I atheist?
"Here I stand; I can do no other" Martin Luther
"Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil;" Exodus 23:2

Offline StPatrick

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1273
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • The patron saint of WWGHA
Re: 50 answers to the "proofs" against God.
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2008, 01:37:42 PM »
I stopped reading after you said, "Evidence of Jesus' miracles, ever heard of the shroud of Turin? Science has proven it to be from the same area and time as Jesus."

Where did you get that gem, Doctor?  ::)

Some Christian apologetics site, I'm sure.
If we come together and do not fight over religion, class and borders then we hold the key to a peaceful world. There are two possible futures in store; either a March of power and greed or a March of a unified human race.