Is Jesus in the line of David?

[Omen]

Do you believe

Of course not, why would I believe anything without evidence?

if not, why would it matter if Jesus was biological descendent from David?

Because it demonstrates that the writers of the gospels literally 'made up' what they needed to affirm what they wanted to conclude, the different lists of individuals in the lineage are purposefully changed coordinate with what is presumed to be prophetic. However, most of this is moot, because most of the christian notions of messianic prophecy have anything to do with actual Judaic messianic prophecy.  Judaic messianic prophecy is for the most part ignored or discarded, in its place random verses are selected from Psalms and Isaiah which legend is written to conform too.  The irony is that if jesus didn't exist as described, no one would have known they were actual prophecies of the messiah.. because they never were in the first place.

[John 3 16]

However, most of this is moot, because most of the christian notions of messianic prophecy have anything to do with actual Judaic messianic prophecy.  Judaic messianic prophecy is for the most part ignored or discarded, in its place random verses are selected from Psalms and Isaiah which legend is written to conform too.  The irony is that if Jesus didn't exist as described, no one would have known they were actual prophecies of the messiah.. because they never were in the first place.

Give me the logical and credible evidence for your statement

Why not go with the name "Amen"
Then I will be calling you everyday.

quote and yellow text corrected
~Screwtape

[Omen]

Give you evidence for the lack of prophecy?

[John 3 16]

Evidence for your statement

[Omen]

Evidence for your statement

Jewish eschatology, regarding the messiah:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology

In the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible)

Most of the textual requirements concerning the messiah, what he will do, and what will be done during his reign are located within the Book of Isaiah, although requirements are mentioned in other prophets as well.

    The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
    Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)
    The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
    He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)
    The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
    Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
    Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
    He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
    All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
    Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:
    There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:
    All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
    The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
    He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 53:7)
    Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)
    The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
    The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
    Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
    The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
    He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
    He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)


Christian eschatology derived from Judaism:

None of the above.

All of it is ignored, random verses are attributed to Jesus throughout Isaiah and Palms, the rest is either swept under the rug or summed up in a 'second coming' which is in itself never prophesied nor has anything to do with Jewish Messianic Prophecy.  Its sort of a game amongst christian apologetic websites to come up with as many bizarre and tiny references that they can construe as prophetic, often claiming 'hundreds' of fulfilled prophecies which no more deserve to be believed than the next.  No intellectual criteria exists to establish that it is prophetic, other than its convenient at the time.

Again, curious, why not John 3:18?

[JeffPT]

Do you believe virgin Mary had a son, through Holy Spirit?

No.  What fool would?  If you read that in ANY other book in the HISTORY of the world, with the evidence that exists to back it up (ZERO), no one would believe it was a true story.  For some reason you give it a free pass.  Nuts.

Better yet... given what we know of the world... which of the following is most likely. 

A. The virgin Mary had a son through the Holy Spirit.
B. Mary lied about being a virgin.
C. Mary and Joseph had premarital sex.
D. The story is fictional, similar to other, more ancient stories about virgin births. '
E. The translation for "virgin" was incorrect, and it should be "young woman". 

No matter which way you slice it, B,C, D, and E are all FAR more likely than A.  We know people lie all the time.  We know people have premarital sex.  We know people write fictional stories and have talked about virgin births since before Jesus' time.   Many scholars say the word virgin was improperly translated and should have been "young woman" instead.  We don't know of anyone, ever, who conceived a baby through some sort of ghost thingy. 

Now, given sufficient evidence, I am willing to believe literally anything is true.  With the evidence we have for A, however, there is no possible way anyone should think it's true.  It's not even close to enough evidence! 

if not, why would it matter if Jesus was biological descendent from David?

Because some of us, although we do not believe any of it, find religion a fascinating subject.  Much like some people like to study the Greek, Roman and Egyptian Gods too. 

2000 years ago, my Lord was tempted by the devil in the desert for 40 days.
The devil said
a)"If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.” (Matthew 4:3).
b)“If you are the Son of God,”....."throw yourself down. For it is written: "He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. (Matthew 4:6-7)

If you can provide evidence that this actually happened, I will believe you.  Reading it in a book is simply not good enough. 

Just think about who you are working for.

You're just not getting this whole thing are you. 

[12 Monkeys]

 Jesus' birth was NOT the first child born to a supossed virgin,I consider it a stolen story from another religion. That is what the fabricators of the Jesus story STOLE and made part of their story

[velkyn]

If no, then you won't believe anything I say anyway, so why waste both you and my time?

It seems to elude you that you need evidence for the verse you cited, John.  Not just stories from a book.  If I said this was true:

Hathor turned on her rage, she pursued humankind out into the desert and smote them and wallowed in their blood and drank it. Then she returned to Ra and told him: "I have overpowered humanity and it was sweet to my heart" and that she had earned herself a new name: "Sekhmet, She Who Prevails". The next day she intended to go down to earth and continue her slaughter, but Ra decided it was enough and wanted her to stop. He feared that she would kill all of humanity and therefore he summoned the "Side-Lock Wearer of Iunu", which is a title of the high priest of Ra at Iunu and asked him and his priesthood to grind a great amount of red mineral, which had been collected from the area around the 1st Cataract, into a powder. This was mixed with thousands of jars of beer so that it became red like blood. The beer was transported to the place where the goddess next intended to kill humankind and Ra let it be poured out over the fields.

When the goddess arrived, she saw her own reflection in the red beer, took it for blood and drank until she fell asleep from drunkenness without having given humanity a thought. When she woke up, she was changed back to her normal sweet Hathor and Ra welcomed her back. From that day onwards, alcohol was drunk at festivals of Hathor. – from The Book of the Heavenly Cow

would you unconditionally accept that on my word alone?  Why or why not?  I’m going to guess, for the sake of continuing this post, that you would not accept this as true and you would ask for evidence.  If so, you are a simple hypocrite, wanting special accommodation for your myths and no others.  All that stands between you and atheism is a desperate belief in your stories and willful ignorance that your stories are just like so many other religious ones.  You have nothing but that, John.  I am guessing that in all of your life, it is only in your religion that you ignore facts for your convenience.  Do you see how ridiculous that is?   

[John 3 16]

I spent most my teen life in catholic, because my parents were in catholic.
My grandparents were in buddhists so I am really familiar with it also.
Velkyn, I totally know what you are saying, when you say "Why Christianity alone?"
Do you remember apostle Paul's story? He met the Christ on the way to Damascus. (Acts 9:3)
I met my Lord, too. In a different way.
Listen, I am not bothering you, or making a penny out of this.
But I feel bad, I feel I have to tell people what I experienced.
I get to see hundreds of Christians every month.
I ask them same question "Are you born again christian?"
Because "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."(John 3:5)
The priests carrying the ark of the covenant had to set their foot on the flooded river of Jordan first, then the Lord stop the flow of the river,(Joshua 3)
We have to act first, then the Lord shows the way.
I hope you are not the person, asking God "You show me first, then I will believe"
Because that sounds logical but for some reason God will never do that for you.
I wish there was a way to explain or to show you what to do in order to show you God.
How many Christians you've met can boldly say "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”(Galatians 2:20-22)
There is a way to see God, but you have to set your foot on the flooded river first, then you will see.  Rather, God will show you the way.

[Omen]

What exactly in that babbling is an answer to anyone for anything?

[Omen]

Why didn't you answer my contradiction about Judaic messianic prophecy having nothing to do with christian messianic prophecy?

[Omen]

I spent

Don't are, not relevant to conveying a logical argument or evidence for your beliefs.

There is a way to see God, but you ..

This is a pleading dismissal, you can't adequately argue for your beliefs so you've reduced your beliefs to a qualification that is impossible to achieve.  In fact, this kind of disingenuous sophistry requires one, in order to believe, to believe already.  Why would I need to believe if I believe already?

The problem, and disconnection, seems to be your inability ( or really any religious persons ability to ) to honestly, logically, and reasonably convey a meaningful argument in support of their religious narrative/beliefs as if they were true.  This is the kind of qualifications we need; honest answers, evidence, logical reasoning.  It is actually really quite simply, we use this kind of stuff every single day from mowing the lawn to deciding whether or not to walk down a particularly dark alley.  We weigh evidence, against a context of understanding of our natural world, supposing conditions that may or may not exist that we make value judgements about.

So lets take your religious mythology:

You never explain why you claim what you claim

As far as we know, you could be pulling it out of your ass.  Citing a biblical verse tells us absolutely nothing on an intellectual level, your interpretation is entirely removed from a reasonable and logical tie into the verses themselves.  At face value, we cannot separate your arbitrary metaphors from someone elses.

What happens when we point this out?  We get your dismissals, you ignoring the problems inherent to your claims, and you condescendingly asserting that we have a 'choice'.  Nothing about clarifying your position rationally, reasonably, and logically.  Nothing about trying to at least inform us of your explanation behind your arbitrary and purely random metaphors.  This isn't a peaceful answer, this is rhetoric of detached non-sequiturs and a tactic of woefully hateful devaluing those that are honest enough to point out its meaningless.

So again, I demand of it you, I require of you:

Why can't you deliver an honest and logically rational exchange of information to begin to even convey that you have an informative context worth considering?

Why is the only effort of trying to argue for your religious belief a dogmatic spiel of randomly made assertions without explanation, against a back drop of hatefully devaluing other human beings in a false dichotomy between yes or no?

Why would you ever ask someone to 'choose' to believe what they have no reason to believe?

How does one 'choose' to believe what they have no reason to believe?

Did you 'choose' to believe in your religious myth without having no reason to believe it?

[John 3 16]

Why didn't you answer my contradiction about Judaic messianic prophecy having nothing to do with christian messianic prophecy?

Plagiarized material removed

[Omen]

Why didn't you answer my contradiction about Judaic messianic prophecy having nothing to do with christian messianic prophecy?

Psalm

This doesn't answer the problem.

The problem is that Jewish messianic prophecy does not match claims about Jesus and I listed Jewish messianic prophecy.  You listed a random series of verses, for what nobody really knows, declared them to be prophecy as you ignored what I asked for, and didn't answer any of the other problems. ( Such as the fact that the 'second coming' isn't prophesied )

This is how your argument should look:

1. Jews derived prophecy in this manner.
2. This is the list of derived prophecy.
3. The list you quote is not relevant because XYZ.
4. The second coming is prophesied in XYZ.
5 Therefore ABC.

Any jewish person can giggle snort and point out that none of this has anything to do with Judaic Messianic prophecy, why can't answer the problem directly?

[Ambassador Pony]

Plagiarism.

http://www.bible-history.com/messianicprophecy/MESSIANICPROPHECYThe_Rejected_Stone_Became_the_Ch.htm

Preaching.

Stonewalling.

Looks like death by mod.

[Omen]

You also ignored my other questions, as well as the fact that you're admittedly not arguing in the affirmative to convey any kind of useful information to choose anything, which I challenged repeatedly.

What is your best excuse here? Nya nya boo boo, stick your head in doo doo.. if none of it is ever answered for?  How does one 'choose' to believe what they have no reason to believe?

[Omen]

Plagiarism.

http://www.bible-history.com/messianicprophecy/MESSIANICPROPHECYThe_Rejected_Stone_Became_the_Ch.htm

You dishonest little pencil dick, you can't even express enough responsibility to even argue for your beliefs and you have to go to the first random thing you can find on google!  Even if I were to assume your god did exist, you would be the worst possible messenger to send, because of your completely lack of intellectual ability to argue and completely dishonest behavior.

[John 3 16]

I do use internet search sometimes, because it is faster, but I read it and make sure it contains correct message first.
OK without internet's help.

"The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone" (psalm118:22)

Doesn't that verse answer your question?
Jews rejected Messiah, so gentiles can be saved.
There were prophecies concerning this in numerous diffrent books. Hundreds years ago before Christ was born.

[Alzael]

I do use internet search sometimes, because it is faster, but I read it and make sure it contains correct message first.

Not citing your source at the very least is plagarizing. Especially if you are quoting verbatim.

[Aaron123]

There were prophecies concerning this in numerous diffrent books. Hundreds years ago before Christ was born.

Can you prove that these events happened, as opposed to being stories that someone wrote thousands of years ago?

"Prophecies" doesn't mean much if it's just stuff someone made up.

For that matter, even if the stories in the bible DID happen, can you prove that no one altered the details of the stories so that supposed prophecies were fullfiled? (like perhaps someone made up that whole virgin birth thing, but it never actually happened...)

[velkyn]

I spent most my teen life in catholic, because my parents were in catholic.
My grandparents were in buddhists so I am really familiar with it also.
Velkyn, I totally know what you are saying, when you say "Why Christianity alone?"

I doubt that you understand what I was saying at all considering the amount of nonsense and dodging you have done I this post. 

Every Christian claims that they met/know their god/savior.  and All of they disagree on what this god/savoir wants or what it “really means”. 

I am expecting an answer to my questions, not your anecdotes.  I want to know that if I told you a tale of ostensibly “my” religion, why you would or wouln’t accept it. Again, my questions:

would you unconditionally accept that on my word alone?  Why or why not?  I’m going to guess, for the sake of continuing this post, that you would not accept this as true and you would ask for evidence.  If so, you are a simple hypocrite, wanting special accommodation for your myths and no others.  All that stands between you and atheism is a desperate belief in your stories and willful ignorance that your stories are just like so many other religious ones.  You have nothing but that, John.  I am guessing that in all of your life, it is only in your religion that you ignore facts for your convenience.  Do you see how ridiculous that is?

 

I don’t care if you want to claim that you aren’t bothering me or making money from this garbage.  You are spreading nonsense that has nothing to support it.  And thus you are indeed “bothering” me.

It’s also so cute to see one more OneTrueChristian^tm all sure that they have the only right answer.  So, you ask other Christians if they are “born-again”.  All this does is confirm that you think you have the only way, that they have to believe just like you to qualify as TrueChristians^tm.  In that you have none of the attributes that a supposed follower of Christ is supposed to have, I have no reason to think you are any better than they are.  You are just one more vain, arrogant man.

You also return to your usual baseless claims that if I just do things your way I would believe like you do.  It’s like a dog returning to its own vomit.  You want to claim that I have to believe first and then God will reveal itself to me.  Funny how that isn’t required at all in the bible.  You’ve just made this up like so many modern Christians to explain the inaction of your god.  Now suddenly your god has to have faith before it does anything, when in the Bible, that wasn’t needed at all.  God has had no problems in showing people it existed.  Your supposed savior, JC, said that one should use miracles to establish faith, not the other way around.  We have John 4 where JC says to the royal official that they will not believe without signs and wonders and then proceeds to provide those signs and wonders by healing the official’s son.  We have John 10 where JC says

37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

 
So, John, and it is funny that you use that gospel as a handle when it shows you to be so wrong, you’ve failed again.  You’ve made up your own version of Christianity to excuse its failures. All you have claimed has no evidence and even your bible shows your desperate attempts to decide what parts you will accept, what parts you ignore and what you’ve made up on your own.

[jedweber]

"The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone" (psalm118:22)

Doesn't that verse answer your question?
Jews rejected Messiah, so gentiles can be saved.
There were prophecies concerning this in numerous diffrent books. Hundreds years ago before Christ was born.

What is that verse supposed to show us, except that Christians found it later and decided it applied to Jesus? Are you suggesting that it was originally intended as a prophecy of Christ?

Let's look at what a Christian bible commentary (Barnes' Notes on the Bible) says on this verse:

This is an allusion to a building, as if a stone should be cast away by workmen as unfit to be worked into the edifice. The figure would then be applicable to anyone who, for any purpose, was rejected. Thus it might have been applied many a time to David; so, doubtless, to others who urged claims to authority and power; and so, eminently, to the Lord Jesus Christ. We are not to suppose that this had original reference to the Messiah, but the language was applicable to him;...

http://bible.cc/psalms/118-22.htm

Why would God issue prophecies that are so vague and enigmatic, make no explicit reference to Jesus at all, and could be applied to countless other individuals?   

You're illustrating Omen's point exactly.

[Omen]

I do use internet search sometimes, because it is faster, but I read it and make sure it contains correct message first.
OK without internet's help.

"The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone" (psalm118:22)

Meaningless.

Explanation?

Doesn't that verse answer your question?

Nope.  It has nothing to do with Judaic messianic prophecy, which I pointed out and elaborated upon here:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,18209.msg434357.html#msg434357

The real problem I have is that you don't seem to possess the mental capacity to understand that this is a non-answer.  You didn't even bother to explain, other than a citation of a single bit of scripture that carries with it no explanatory meaning.  I also pointed out that apologist for christianity randomly pick verses in the bible, arbitrarily associating them with 'prophecy' that was never 'prophecy' to begin with.  Citing this verse proves that point, because there is no logical reason to read this scripture as being more than a bit of poetic prose.

There were prophecies concerning this in numerous diffrent books. Hundreds years ago before Christ was born.

And we are still waiting for you to cite one that relatively follows from premise to conclusion.  Plus, my rebuttal from earlier specifically stated that Judaic messianic prophecy has nothing to do with christian claims of messianic prophecy, this offers no explanation and begins no where.  It begs more questions of your presumptions, which you've left void in the conversation, seemingly outside of any responsibility of trying to convey any kind of informative claim about anything.  Remember when I said you have to explain the what, how, and why.. you're not doing it.

All of this goes back to what I claimed earlier:

All of it is ignored, random verses are attributed to Jesus throughout Isaiah and Palms, the rest is either swept under the rug or summed up in a 'second coming' which is in itself never prophesied nor has anything to do with Jewish Messianic Prophecy.  Its sort of a game amongst christian apologetic websites to come up with as many bizarre and tiny references that they can construe as prophetic, often claiming 'hundreds' of fulfilled prophecies which no more deserve to be believed than the next.  No intellectual criteria exists to establish that it is prophetic, other than its convenient at the time.

Again, curious, why not John 3:18?