Something about Job...

[pianodwarf]

...just occurred to me.  Part of the so-called "moral" of Job is that even bad things happen for a good reason (at least, I think that's the point).  Job even asks at one point what's going on, and Yahweh responds basically by saying "shut up, I'm god and you're not, there's a reason for everything."  Ultimately, Job never finds out what the reason was for his going thru all that crap.

And yet, later on, after he's lived his full life and died, someone else writes the story down, and everyone else gets to know what was going on behind the scenes, even though Job never gets to know...?  What kind of justice is that?

[IAmFirst]

I find the book of Job to be one of the easiest reasons to not worship this evil sky daddy.

This deity is challenged by an archangel (that HE created) who isn't in charge and isn't very stubborn. So this god gambles on the idea of true faith. How? By ordering the challenger to inflict as much pain on Job as possible, just don't kill him. His kids, cattle, servants, property are all destroyed. Job keeps his faith. He's rewarded with a replacement family, servants, yadda, yadda.

I interpret this whole shebang bet with god as the loser. In order to prove that Job's faith is unwavering, he let's one of his creations who's already got a bad rep to have his own fun by wreaking havoc on the innocent victim. Sure, sure, god was right about Job, but what did Lucifer really lose?

I also regard Job as one of the stupidest and pathetic men in the bible, possibly mentally handicapped. Seriously. Am I really supposed to believe that Job felt happy with a replacement family? His faith never wavered? Bullshit. Any man who worked as hard as Job did to earn his own success and a happy family does forgive a being, powerful or not, by wreaking undeserved and misplaced arrogance on an innocent and lowly human. Especially when god refuses to explain himself but instead spouts off inane phrases making him look like the first case of Alzheimer's:

"Where were you when I was laying the foundation for the earth? Who determined its measurements? On what are its foundations sunk? Who laid its conerstone? Have you ever in your life commanded the dawn to know its place, that it might take hold of the foundations of the earth and shake the wicked out of it? 'Have you been to the storage houses for snow and hail? Tell me the place where lightning is dispersed, and where the East wind is from!"  

WTF??? Hey, listen, sky daddy, you used me as an example, you killed my family, I still profess my faith, you owe me an explanation, bastard. And again, just like in all the previous bible books, you aren't making a fucking drop of sense when you speak or when you act. Seriously, old sky dude, you need sex, and lots of it. Create your own Athena and leave me alone! -- At least that's something along the lines of what Job should've said.

Instead, Job says, "'I am insignificant. How can I answer you? I put my hand over my mouth and will say no more." - Stupid? Yes.

This story is a perfect example why not to ever praise a being where we are clearly morally superior.

Here's the link to The Brick Testament's version of this. Makes it even more fun:
http://www.thebricktestament.com/job/

[dloubet]

I wonder what Job's answer would have been if asked "Who did this to you?"

[screwtape]

...just occurred to me.  Part of the so-called "moral" of Job is that even bad things happen for a good reason (at least, I think that's the point). 

I take the point of Job to be the opposite.  For people who believe, god gives them a sense that everything is under control and the good and bad have a reason behind them.  But with Job, I think it shows that if yhwh is at the controls, then he is just as opaque and unfathomable as chaos.   When yhwh tells Job, essentially, that he is yhwh and he is going to do whatever the flip he wants and Job had better like it, that is as random and unpredictable as nature.  There may be a guy at the wheel, but what's the point when he is as apt to drive you all off a cliff as not?

[12 Monkeys]

being an ommni-everything being would god not already know the outcome? &)why wager on something you know the outcome of.....unless your a selfish prick

[velkyn]

I've also found it interesting that when Job's friends (Eliphaz, etc)  make all of these great claims about God and how wise and merciful he is, God comes back and says "you lied about me so go make some sacrifices".  Which parts did they lie about?

[pianodwarf]

I find the book of Job to be one of the easiest reasons to not worship this evil sky daddy.

I agree completely.  I mean, if you changed the story just so that Yahweh was Job's wife and Satan was... well, pretty much anybody, really, you'd call it the worst kind of spousal abuse and exhort Job to get a divorce halfway thru chapter one.

There may be a guy at the wheel, but what's the point when he is as apt to drive you all off a cliff as not?

Interesting perspective, and definitely a good point.  One of my podcasts recently brought up the point in a similar way.  "What if Yahweh exists and his entire purpose in producing the human race is as a food source for some species from Alpha Centauri?  It wouldn't be for us to argue, right?  We'd be expected to meekly line up at the slaughterhouse because, after all, if we didn't, we'd get killed and eaten anyway."

[Voter]

...just occurred to me.  Part of the so-called "moral" of Job is that even bad things happen for a good reason (at least, I think that's the point).  Job even asks at one point what's going on, and Yahweh responds basically by saying "shut up, I'm god and you're not, there's a reason for everything."  Ultimately, Job never finds out what the reason was for his going thru all that crap.

And yet, later on, after he's lived his full life and died, someone else writes the story down, and everyone else gets to know what was going on behind the scenes, even though Job never gets to know...?  What kind of justice is that?

As Job said,
Job 2
10 He replied, “You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?”

[pianodwarf]

As Job said,
Job 2
10 He replied, “You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?”

And my answer would be, "Sure, why not?  For that matter, why does there even have to be trouble?" 

[Voter]

As Job said,
Job 2
10 He replied, “You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?”

And my answer would be, "Sure, why not?"

That's your choice. No one's forcing you to accept it. Some people, like Job, believe that a creator has a right to do as he will with his creation. Some, like you, claim to disagree.

[JeffPT]

That's your choice. No one's forcing you to accept it. Some people, like Job, believe that a creator has a right to do as he will with his creation. Some, like you, claim to disagree.

There is a major difference between having the power to do what one wants, and having the right to do what one wants.  I have the power to beat my children to death with a club.  But I don't have that right.

For the sake of argument, assuming God is real for a moment... If you want to claim that God has the right to treat his creation as he wishes, and He uses that right to kick us around, then please don't be surprised when  people who can actually think decide not to worship him.  He wouldn't deserve it.  And at the very least, don't ever try to tell other people that God loves us, because that's laughable.  Job is a fool if he worships God after God kills everyone in his family and then tortures him just to prove a point. 

Be that as it may, God and Job are just fictional characters in a book.  Completely fake.  The story never happened.  So it's no big deal to begin with.   

[Alzael]

That's your choice. No one's forcing you to accept it. Some people, like Job, believe that a creator has a right to do as he will with his creation. Some, like you, claim to disagree.

Fortunately the True God is not a monster that would commit such an act. The true god does not ask for submission to his will, such a thing would be to follow the path of the druj and lead the world into darkness. We are all responsible for our own lives and our own choices in the great conflict. If you followed the asha you would oppose such a monster as depicted in the book of Job.

[Voter]

There is a major difference between having the power to do what one wants, and having the right to do what one wants.

In the final analysis there's no practical difference.

I have the power to beat my children to death with a club.  But I don't have that right.

Why not?

For the sake of argument, assuming God is real for a moment... If you want to claim that God has the right to treat his creation as he wishes, and He uses that right to kick us around, then please don't be surprised when  people who can actually think decide not to worship him.

I'm not surprised at all.

[alihaymeg]

Voter,

I don't have any problem with a person who has examined their beliefs honestly and thoroughly and ends up retaining those beliefs. I would ask you though if you have researched the history and origin of the texts that you have chosen to place all of your faith and trust in. To just blindly accept the theology forced on you by your culture and society is ridiculous. That means that, simply by the accident of birth, you would be defending the Quran' right now if you had been born in a Muslim country. It means that you have no idea if what you believe is actual fact or just blind acquiescence to the dominant perspective of the day. Answer the following questions for yourself:

When was each book of the Bible written?
Who wrote them?
Did they have an agenda?
Do they agree with one another?
Were there things added by later scribes, etc.?

And there are many other research level questions that must be answered before belief in anything can be justified. Christians do not look for that kind of proof or look at the Bible as a document that needs to be shown to be accurate. They only look at it from an interpretational perspective already assuming it to be true. At some point you have to grow up and realize what you are doing. It took me 40 years to grow up. How long will it take you?

[Voter]

Voter,

I don't have any problem with a person who has examined their beliefs honestly and thoroughly and ends up retaining those beliefs. I would ask you though if you have researched the history and origin of the texts that you have chosen to place all of your faith and trust in.

Yes.

To just blindly accept the theology forced on you by your culture and society is ridiculous.

Not if I like my culture and society. In such case it makes sense to accept it whether true or not.

When was each book of the Bible written?
Who wrote them?
Did they have an agenda?
Do they agree with one another?
Were there things added by later scribes, etc.?

Various, various, yes, yes, nothing significant.

And there are many other research level questions that must be answered before belief in anything can be justified. Christians do not look for that kind of proof or look at the Bible as a document that needs to be shown to be accurate. They only look at it from an interpretational perspective already assuming it to be true.

Most Christians don't have time to do all that, and so take the word of people who they've learned to trust. Same's true of most complex topics. There are lots of internet atheists who extol the virtues of peer-reviewed scientific studies, but few who subscribe to peer-reviewed journals, as they're expensive and it would take a lot of time to build the foundation necessary to understand them.

At some point you have to grow up and realize what you are doing.

No you don't. People go from cradle to grave in blissful ignorance.

[pianodwarf]

That's your choice. No one's forcing you to accept it.

Actually, Yahweh, as depicted in scripture, pretty much is forcing me (and everyone else) to accept it.  Or he would be, if he actually existed.

Some people, like Job, believe that a creator has a right to do as he will with his creation.

No, not many people really believe this... if it were a widely-held belief, parents killing their children would be a common occurrence, and they would routinely be permitted to get away with it.  In practice, parents killing their children is rare (despite scriptural exhortations to do so), and those who commit the act are prosecuted when the act is discovered.

Some, like you, claim to disagree.

No, I don't claim to disagree.  I do disagree.

[jetson]

No you don't. People go from cradle to grave in blissful ignorance.

This is at least an honest reply and sentiment.

I suppose it is OK for people to do this, assuming they are not harming anyone with their personal beliefs and "blissful ignorance".  What is not OK, is when they heap their blissful ignorance upon the rest of society by trying to teach mythology in science classes, or denying others equal rights based on their ignorance, for example.

[Voter]

Actually, Yahweh, as depicted in scripture, pretty much is forcing me (and everyone else) to accept it.  Or he would be, if he actually existed.

Actually, no, the God of the Bible allows most people to reject him. There are negative consequences for rejection, but that's different from forcing acceptance.

No, not many people really believe this... if it were a widely-held belief, parents killing their children would be a common occurrence, and they would routinely be permitted to get away with it.  In practice, parents killing their children is rare (despite scriptural exhortations to do so), and those who commit the act are prosecuted when the act is discovered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide
Regardless of the cause, throughout history infanticide has been common. Anthropologist Laila Williamson notes that "Infanticide has been practiced on every continent and by people on every level of cultural complexity, from hunter gatherers to high civilizations, including our own ancestors. Rather than being an exception, then, it has been the rule."

The primary difference in modern Western society is in technology. It used to be that abortion methods were more dangerous to the mother than childbirth, so infanticide was practiced. Now that abortion is less dangerous than childbirth, abortion is practiced.
 

No, I don't claim to disagree.  I do disagree.

I wrote claim as we really can't know, as we don't have god's creative power.

[alihaymeg]

Not if I like my culture and society. In such case it makes sense to accept it whether true or not.

So you don't care if it is true or not? That makes you a different kind of person that most of us. We do care.

Various, various, yes, yes, nothing significant.

That's proof positive that you have not done the research. It's a moot point though since you seem to be content with letting others tell you what to believe.

Most Christians don't have time to do all that, and so take the word of people who they've learned to trust. Same's true of most complex topics. There are lots of internet atheists who extol the virtues of peer-reviewed scientific studies, but few who subscribe to peer-reviewed journals, as they're expensive and it would take a lot of time to build the foundation necessary to understand them.

That may be true of some. It is not true of all though. There is sufficient availability of resources out there to research any topic. Having several degrees in theology, I actually do subscribe to peer-reviewed journals of many kinds. It doesn't require them though for a person to be honest with themselves. All it requires is a developed capacity for rational thought and a desire to be honest. If you have no interest in those things then you will likely be content with your delusions.

No you don't. People go from cradle to grave in blissful ignorance.

Case in point.

[Voter]

This is at least an honest reply and sentiment.

I suppose it is OK for people to do this, assuming they are not harming anyone with their personal beliefs and "blissful ignorance".  What is not OK, is when they heap their blissful ignorance upon the rest of society by trying to teach mythology in science classes, or denying others equal rights based on their ignorance, for example.

Is it OK when they build weapons that could destroy the world, or introduce genetically modified plants into nature without means to limit their spread, or build nuclear power plants in earthquake zones?

[pianodwarf]

Actually, no, the God of the Bible allows most people to reject him. There are negative consequences for rejection, but that's different from forcing acceptance.

Yahweh does force acceptance.  Saying "do as I command or I'll set you on fire" is not really offering someone a choice between obedience and immolation.  It's requiring obedience.

Regardless of the cause, throughout history infanticide has been common.

I was talking about now, not the time when the bible was written, when most societies engaged in a variety of practices that they considered perfectly acceptable but that we rightly reject today.  Slavery also used to be quite common.  Today, it's pretty rare, and in those few places where it still occurs, the international community works to abolish it.

I wrote claim as we really can't know, as we don't have god's creative power.

You're missing my point.  I wasn't "claiming" to disagree with the expressed opinion anymore than I would be "claiming" that I have an Ansel Adams print hanging on my living room wall.  I do have an Ansel Adams print hanging on my living room wall.

EDIT: Quoting problem fixed.

[Alzael]

Actually, no, the God of the Bible allows most people to reject him. There are negative consequences for rejection, but that's different from forcing acceptance.

Actually the god of the bible forces people to do things all the time. Like when he forced Pharoah to refuse Moses request to let the slaves go.

He also decides whether people go to heaven or hell based on his whim. It doesn't matter if you accept him or not. He decided when you were born.

You've never read that book, have you?

[JeffPT]

In the final analysis there's no practical difference.

Disagree.  You're just wrong.  Having the power to do something and deciding whether or not to do it are 2 extremely different things no matter how you slice it.

I have the power to beat my children to death with a club.  But I don't have that right.

Why not?

Because my rights stop where the rights of others begin. Including my kids.   

For the sake of argument, assuming God is real for a moment... If you want to claim that God has the right to treat his creation as he wishes, and He uses that right to kick us around, then please don't be surprised when  people who can actually think decide not to worship him.

I'm not surprised at all.

It shouldn't.  It's the only logical course of action.  Anyone who chooses to worship that is certifiably nuts. 

[Graybeard]

I suppose that, like most of God's Biography, He can be left out of it and this makes a better story of it. We have a man who becomes ill, has his family and business destroyed and then works to get it all back.

You can almost hear the conversation at the bar of "The Leper and Philistine"

"Hear about old Job then?"
"Who? The guy with the boils?"
"Yeah, his tongue cleaved to the roof of his mouth as well but he's better now."
"Really!? How did that happen? I had a bet with Ishmael that he'd buy the farm before eunuch castrating time."
"Dunno, just got better... got himself a wife as well."
"Good luck to him! Did he pay much for her?"
"50 Shekels - and he's bought a load of oxen"
"Sacrificed any?"
"One... but it was a big one."
"Who got the sacrifice?"
"Yahweh."
"Typical - all that trouble and he still sacrifices an ox! The man's an congenital idiot... Do you want another fermented asses milk? It's really refreshing."
"I'll stick with the curdled camel's milk if it's OK with you. But yeah, I sort of agree, they say Yahweh did it. I'm a Ba'al man myself... never let me down, doesn't mess with The Devil."
"Oh, so the devil had a hand? Yahweh and him must be like this [crosses fingers]. Personally, I'm into Ashure, I've got a little statue in my kitchen."
"I hear you. If Job were not such an unremitting, priggish, godbothering, arsehole, I'd have some sympathy with him."

[Alzael]

In the final analysis there's no practical difference.

Disagree.  You're just wrong.  Having the power to do something and deciding whether or not to do it are 2 extremely different things no matter how you slice it.

I have the power to beat my children to death with a club.  But I don't have that right.

Why not?

It's an interesting thing, Voter, that you seem to need Jeff to provide you with an excuse of why you shouldn't beat your children just because you can.

[pianodwarf]

You can almost hear the conversation at the bar of "The Leper and Philistine"

There's a Monty Python episode in there somewhere, I just know it.

Satan: "So, eh... tell me, Yahweh.  Your man Job, there... is he a goer?  Eh?  KnowhatImean, knowhatImean, nudge nudge, say no more."

Or maybe...

"I'm sorry, I'm running the universe.

"Never mind that, my lad, I've come to register a complaint about this wife and family that you gave me not twenty years ago, from this very boutique."

"Oh, yes, the Semite and her children.  Uh, what's wrong with them...?"

"I'll tell you what's wrong with them, My Lord.  They're dead.  That's what's wrong with them."

[Quietus]

I'm rereading Dan Barker's "Godless". He was talking about contradictions and mentioned that the bible said Job was a perfect man! A perfect fucking sinless man! Holy shit! And God did what to him!? Somebody definitely should have told Job, "If your arms are too short to box with God, kick him in the gnads."

Voter, you sound like you are interviewing for a job at Auschwitz. Ve vere just folloving orders. Good luck to you in your bliss.

[Graybeard]

This is at least an honest reply and sentiment.

I suppose it is OK for people to do this, assuming they are not harming anyone with their personal beliefs and "blissful ignorance".  What is not OK, is when they heap their blissful ignorance upon the rest of society by trying to teach mythology in science classes, or denying others equal rights based on their ignorance, for example.

Is it OK when they build weapons that could destroy the world, or introduce genetically modified plants into nature without means to limit their spread, or build nuclear power plants in earthquake zones?

I'm not sure how your answer refers to Jetson's quote.

We must not forget that God destroyed all life on earth, that He created the crops that could not survive drought and pests and diseases that ravage plants, animals and us, and that earthquakes are caused by God when he isn't destroying cities with fire and practising genocide on those who have different gods.

So: what are you saying here?

[Ivellios]

"Where were you when I was laying the foundation for the earth? Who determined its measurements?

Where was I when they laid the foundation of my house or school? Does it matter? I find it irrelevent. After they found out it was round, and by choosing to use either metric, imperial or nautical system, I'd say Humans determined it's measurements. Since you, you all-knowing god neglected to tell us this. What's the point of me gloating about what cookies I may have in my pantry if I refuse to share them or let you know what kind they are? I may as well not have any cookies in my pantry!

On what are its foundations sunk? Who laid its conerstone?

Since the Earth is in the gravity well of Sol, there is no foundation or cornerstone.

Have you ever in your life commanded the dawn to know its place, that it might take hold of the foundations of the earth and shake the wicked out of it?

Well, I already touched upon the foundations (punny I know ). You cannot shake the "wicked out of it" because of this force explained by the Theory of Gravity. As for "commanding the dawn" well, the Earth is a sphere and it is constantly rotating, which means there's always some place on Earth that's experiencing dawn, and if the earth would stop rotating, a spot on the Earth would experience perpetual dawn till the Earth started rotating again. No commanding of Dawn is necessary.

Have you been to the storage houses for snow and hail?

We call them "clouds" and yes I have been to them in an airplane, actually a few different jets in the course of my life time. They're not actully what I would call a "storage house" either, just a collection of condensed and frozen water vapor that is held aloft by wind until the mass of the frozen water through gravity becomes too great to be held aloft by such winds. Definately not a "house" or a "room" at all.

Tell me the place where lightning is dispersed, and where the East wind is from!"

There is no place lightning is from and after the flash, to where it goes. It is a visual display of the transference of electrons between, usually, the lower parts of the clouds and the ground... there is more to it than "visual display" but no need to explain all the details to an "all-knowing god."

Well, anyone would know that the "east wind" would come from the east... that's a duh... but I guess you want something more specific. Well, the Earth is round so there's no place you can go that you can go "all the way to the east" because you'll start comming from the west. Winds are created via convection, as warmer air raises from a "hot spot" goes up into the atmosphere as it cools, then it falls back to the Earth. This place becomes cooler than the area around it. Because of the low pressure caused by the raising warm air, and the increased pressure caused by the falling cold air, this this patch of air travels back to the warm spot creating "wind." Since warm spots and cool spots change all the time, this is pretty fluid and dynamic... no specific spot any particular wind is from.

I learned all this in Elementry School, funny how this all-knoing god fails at what even young children know.

Edit: It seems as if this "all-knowing" god is supporter of the flat Earth society. He'd be a massive FAIL if he were to actually be the one to first propose the "Faith Based Flat Earth" belief.