Author Topic: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)  (Read 3175 times)

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Offline One Above All

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This is the full question (it didn't fit in the Subject box):
Why is the murder of theists who believe in an afterlife a big deal for other theists of the same religion?

Think about it. One is a theist[1]. One gets murdered. One goes to the "good place" (where there's eternal bliss) and the murderer goes to the "bad place" (where there's eternal torture). Why do theists oppose murder?
If anything, only non-theists (who don't believe in an afterlife) should oppose murder. After all, we believe we only get one shot at life and that's it

Before you make any comments on this, remember one simple thing:
I oppose murder[2]
 1. From this point on, the "afterlife" thing will be removed for shortness's sake
 2. This is in bold and the "oppose" is underlined and italicized to prevent the much hated strawmen
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Offline MathIsCool

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2011, 03:08:58 PM »
Exodous 20:13.

You say you oppose murder.  Why?  What's so special about human life on atheism that destroying it is wrong?
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Offline Locke

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2011, 03:10:23 PM »
Why is it wrong to murder theists?

Simple.  Because this life is all there is.  And deep down, they have lurking feelings that it's true.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 03:16:32 PM by Locke »
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Offline dloubet

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2011, 03:13:54 PM »
It's worse than that. There are some who say that the suffering in this world will earn you special happy points in the afterlife, so the more painful and horrible the death, the better the place in heaven.

So if a theist is going to die, it should be an atrocity to make sure he gets the best possible afterlife.

(Ditto your disclaimer)
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2011, 03:18:31 PM »
Exodous 20:13.

You say you oppose murder.  Why?  What's so special about human life on atheism that destroying it is wrong?

He already answered that question in the OP. Because this life is the only one we have. Hence it's precious. It's the people who believe that life is fleeting and simply a trial run for heaven that shouldn't have a problem with death.

I think your reading comprehension skills could use some work.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2011, 03:27:44 PM »
Exodous 20:13.

I didn't ask why it was wrong for christians to commit murder. I asked why the murder of theists was wrong

You say you oppose murder.  Why?  What's so special about human life on atheism that destroying it is wrong?

Atheism - non-belief in deities. Doesn't mean some atheists don't believe in a soul, afterlife etc. Personally, I don't. And it especially doesn't mean atheists don't have morals

PS: I explained why in the OP. As Alzael said, your reading comprehension skills could use some work
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2011, 03:31:48 PM »
Exodous 20:13.

You say you oppose murder.  Why?  What's so special about human life on atheism that destroying it is wrong?

The only thing we have is this life. We need to preserve and cherish and enjoy it as much as possible for as long as possible, because we don't get another life. One value I affirm is that murder, ie. destroying any life needlessly, is immoral and wrong, and we should strive for a world where we don't need to kill. Killing, especially of another person like myself, has to be for a good reason. That is why murder is different from self-defense.

(I would also argue that murder is different from abortion when you don't want to be pregnant, and different from voluntary euthanasia when you have an incurable fatal painful illness. But that's another thread... :))

The problem is when people say a)this life has no meaning except as a way to the next life, and then try to argue at the same time that b)this life is important and should be preserved and cherished. Huh? If you really believe a), wouldn't you want to die as soon as possible? Wouldn't a devout believer welcome being murdered? Hence the OP.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

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Offline IAmFirst

Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2011, 03:50:06 PM »
It's worse than that. There are some who say that the suffering in this world will earn you special happy points in the afterlife, so the more painful and horrible the death, the better the place in heaven.

So if a theist is going to die, it should be an atrocity to make sure he gets the best possible afterlife.

(Ditto your disclaimer)

This is another unwritten belief in their system. Think about how many of the catholic saints died in a warm bed after 90 years. Well, not that many. Now, beheadings, crucifixions, drawn and quartered-- they seem to be the most popular in entering the level of sainthood. :D

To the OP, also remember that "the lord works in mysterious ways", so it's not hard to be a believer and think that people like Himmler, Bundy and Gacy could be forgiven through repentance and be living with god in heaven.

It's also easy for a believer to think that even though a murder victim is living in the "good place", as you put it, another human being has ended their life prematurely and that the suffering of the victim's family and friends merit some punishment to the murderer.

For me, as an unbeliever in any type of afterlife, violence of this level should never be tolerated. This is the only life we get. And this is also why MAN'S LAW prevails for those who do murder. You take my life, you spend the rest of yours behind bars and die there. I'm fortunate to live without any friends or family ever being murdered, but if it were to happen, I would at least find some solace in knowing the guilty person suffers to the end.
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Offline Timo

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2011, 03:57:36 PM »
Exodous 20:13.

But this doesn't really answer the question.  All you've shown is that, in the Bible, murder is prohibited often prohibited.   You've said nothing about morality--unless, I suppose, you hold to the absurd view that morality can only be plausibly grounded on the arbitrary whims divine nature of a personal god.

You say you oppose murder.  Why?  What's so special about human life on atheism that destroying it is wrong?

Atheism is not an ideology, moral system, philosophy, etc.  To be an atheist only requires a lack of a belief in a god.  And therefore it isn't surprising to find that, for some atheists, human life isn't special.  For others, it is.  Some would, while still affirming that human life is special, also assert that animal life is special.
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Offline MathIsCool

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2011, 04:04:36 PM »
I didn't ask why it was wrong for christians to commit murder. I asked why the murder of theists was wrong

I am a Christian.  I was answering for Christians (of course not all Christians... but in this case, probably the vast majority of them)  For Christians, since "theists" are a sub-set of people, Exodous 20:13 still holds.

Atheism - non-belief in deities. Doesn't mean some atheists don't believe in a soul, afterlife etc. Personally, I don't. And it especially doesn't mean atheists don't have morals

PS: I explained why in the OP. As Alzael said, your reading comprehension skills could use some work

In the OP you said
Quote
...After all, we believe we only get one shot at life and that's it
How precisely does the mere fact that everyone has exactly one shot at life make it wrong to take that life away from someone?  Is it true of other things?  Is it OK to steal a dollar from me if I have two dollars, but not if I have one?  If a rapist has only one chance to rape so-and-so, does that mean we're wrong to take that chance away from him, since he only has that one shot at rape?

I want a reason, under atheism, why human life is special, and therefore Murder is wrong.  The simplistic "We only have one shot at life." doesn't cut it.

P.S. Insults like "your reading comprehension skills could use some work" may be fun to spit, but they are not arguments, and as such not persuasive.
Why not name the website ... "whywontGodallowlaserstoshootoutofmyeyespewpewpew.com"

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Offline One Above All

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2011, 04:09:30 PM »
I am a Christian.  I was answering for Christians (of course not all Christians... but in this case, probably the vast majority of them)  For Christians, since "theists" are a sub-set of people, Exodous 20:13 still holds.

Doesn't hold. I'm not asking why it's wrong for theists to murder; I'm asking why it's wrong for them to BE murdered

In the OP you said
<snip>
How precisely does the mere fact that everyone has exactly one shot at life make it wrong to take that life away from someone?  Is it true of other things?  Is it OK to steal a dollar from me if I have two dollars, but not if I have one?  If a rapist has only one chance to rape so-and-so, does that mean we're wrong to take that chance away from him, since he only has that one shot at rape?

Completely different situations

I want a reason, under atheism, why human life is special, and therefore Murder is wrong.  The simplistic "We only have one shot at life." doesn't cut it.

Once again, atheism has nothing to do with morals. In the OP I speak only of non-theists who don't believe in an afterlife (and oppose murder, obviously)

P.S. Insults like "your reading comprehension skills could use some work" may be fun to spit, but they are not arguments, and as such not persuasive.

They are "subtle" hints that you should read before you post
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Offline Dante

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2011, 04:12:51 PM »
I want a reason, under atheism, why human life is special, and therefore Murder is wrong.  The simplistic "We only have one shot at life." doesn't cut it.

Atheism has nothing to do with murder being wrong. Our evolved social mores are the reason murder is wrong. Random murder is detrimental to a society's survival.

Of course, this has nothing to do with the OP, unless you'd like to show otherwise.

Why don't you want to be murdered? Why don't you want to be in the express lane to heaven?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2011, 04:34:58 PM »
Exodous 20:13.

You say you oppose murder.  Why?  What's so special about human life on atheism that destroying it is wrong?

So you read it in a book and you think that means it's the way to live your life?  God's law and all that shit?  Alright... 

Exodus 31:15 (New International Version) For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.

Exodus 21:17 (New International Version) Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.

Do you feel that people who work on the Sabbath or curse their mother or father should be put to death?  If you do not, then please tell us why the commandment in Exodus 20:13 about murder IS to be followed, but from Exodus 21"17 and 31:15 are not? 

What it boils down to is that you don't kill others for the same reason we don't kill others.  You just superimpose your God belief on top of it (as if it really means something) and call it a day.  It's empathy.  We don't want to kill others because we don't want to be killed ourselves, and we understand that others will probably feel the same way.  It's instinctual.  Comes from evolution of a social species; through the same processes that gave us the sensation of hunger when we need food, and thirst when we need water.  But under special circumstances, that instinct can be overridden and killing will become the best possible option. 

But the question you answered wasn't what he was looking for, and it remains a good question.  If heaven is such a kick ass place, why is it so bad to be murdered?  Shouldn't a murdered Christian be cause for celebration amongst the Christian community?  After all, they are going to the greatest place ever, right?   Think of it this way... If I was in a really shitty job, and there was this awesome job waiting for me whenever I got out of this one, and all I had to do was get fired to get the new job, why would I even hesitate to get myself fired? 

It's completely illogical to want to stay here when an eternity of awesomeness awaits on the other side of death.  In that light, every living Christian who purports to  believe in God and heaven is either lying about it, or practicing cognitive dissonance.  They hold the idea that "I want to live", yet they also hold the idea that "Death will give me eternal bliss".  It's nuts.   

Great question Blaziken. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline dloubet

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2011, 04:40:06 PM »
And just to spin the crap out of this, the murderer is selflessly condemning himself to hell so that his victim has a better place in heaven.

I wonder how many theists would be willing to sacrifice their place in heaven for another.


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Offline One Above All

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2011, 04:44:15 PM »
Great question Blaziken. 

The credit isn't mine. This question has been raised many times but a topic about it has never been made
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2011, 04:48:19 PM »
I wonder how many theists would be willing to sacrifice their place in heaven for another.

If they did, they'd be expecting something even better in return. After all, no human does something voluntarily without it somehow making himself/herself feel good
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Offline MathIsCool

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2011, 05:25:53 PM »
Blaziken:

Doesn't hold. I'm not asking why it's wrong for theists to murder; I'm asking why it's wrong for them to BE murdered
Really?  So were you a Christian, you'd say "Sure, God may have said not to murder... but he never said not to murder my neighbor Bob over there, and man when he mows his lawn he spits pinecones all over the place, and he mows it at like 8 in the morning when I'm still asleep, so... since the Bible never says not to specifically murder Bob....."
That's not biblical.  Also, it's stupid.  If you're murdering a theist, you are by definition murdering, and that's wrong.  (to a Christian.)

Completely different situations
Of course they are.  But they all have the same "one shot at x" commonality.  Please explain (this is the second time I'm asking it, for those keeping score at home) why those "only have one shot at x" are different from your "we only have one shot at life."  Specifically, why we should honor the "one shot at life" deal and be repulsed by the "one shot at rape" one? [1]

Once again, atheism has nothing to do with morals.
&) This is an argument you need to make, not something you get to assert.


Jeff:
Look up Old Testament Ceremonial, Civil, and Moral laws, then get back to me.  Specifically, what category does the "don't Murder" law fall under?  What one does the "kill people who work on the Sabbath" fall under?  What does that tell us about which one to follow?
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=Old+Testament+Ceremonial%2C+Civil%2C+Moral+law&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=87b61fcb467d957c

You mentioned something about empathy, that it evolved out of us being a social species.  The instinct to have sex also evolved, and with it the instinct to rape.  Can you explain why we ought to obey the one evolved impulse (empathy) but not the other (rape)?

You can cook up some story how we evolved social mores, and even were I to grant it, you have yet to show why we ought to follow our evolved social mores.  As the venerable Hume says, how can an ought follow from an is?

Finally:
Your arguments about heaven being awesome so we should be anxious to send people there miss the point entirely.  We're not smarter than God.  He said not to murder people.  We (Christians) therefore don't.

edit:
<needless goading>
Y'know... every time I come here, I get a little more amazed at how weak these anti-Christian/atheism arguments actually are.  Is this really the best you got?
</needless goading>


 1. I'm sure you are, by the way.  I don't want to cast doubt on this, I want you to understand why you are (rightly) repulsed.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 05:36:58 PM by MathIsCool »
Why not name the website ... "whywontGodallowlaserstoshootoutofmyeyespewpewpew.com"

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Offline One Above All

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2011, 05:44:13 PM »
Really?  So were you a Christian, you'd say "Sure, God may have said not to murder... but he never said not to murder my neighbor Bob over there, and man when he mows his lawn he spits pinecones all over the place, and he mows it at like 8 in the morning when I'm still asleep, so... since the Bible never says not to specifically murder Bob....."
That's not biblical.  Also, it's stupid.  If you're murdering a theist, you are by definition murdering, and that's wrong.  (to a Christian.)

So sending someone to heaven (assuming he's a good person) is a bad thing, according to your deity. Gotcha

Of course they are.  But they all have the same "one shot at x" commonality.  Please explain (this is the second time I'm asking it, for those keeping score at home) why those "only have one shot at x" are different from your "we only have one shot at life."  Specifically, why we should honor the "one shot at life" deal and be repulsed by the "one shot at rape" one? [1]
 1. I'm sure you are, by the way.  I don't want to cast doubt on this, I want you to understand why you are (rightly) repulsed.

Your hypothetical situations end in misery for the people who were raped etc. This is a hypothetical situation that ends in eternal bliss for the person murdered

&) This is an argument you need to make, not something you get to assert.

Seriously?
Atheism is the lack of belief in deities. Belief in deities is not necessary to have morals. Therefore, atheism has nothing to do with morals[2]
 2. This was already mentioned before but whatever
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2011, 05:54:23 PM »
I'm sort of repeating another post I made recently, but isn't life just a huge inconvenience to christians? Here they are, on the cusp of having a wondrous and infinite existence, and they have to wait til they're dead. Now suicide is obviously a sin (some pope said so), but if a guy just happened to "accidently" step off of the roof or drive into a bridge abutment, c'est la vie. Or whatever the french is for "such is death".

Any christian murdered is getting off easy, and should be appreciated both as a victim who gets to go to heaven and as a person who, if the murderer is caught, helped track down a hell-bound citizen. Though I would think the murderer would get brownie points for helping a christian get out of this earth-bound waiting room. And maybe a seat by the window in hell.

A seemingly endless wait of 80 years just to finally get to go to heaven? Jesus knew everything and he couldn't wait that long. He could have spent ten or twenty or thirty more years (don't tell me god couldn't have gotten the Romans to hold up a few decades) but he wanted to go home. So it must be a nice joint.

If heaven is so desirable, then getting there should be equally desirable. If people can successfully contemplate how wonderful heaven must be, they should also be able to contemplate how wonderful it is to get there early. And quit with the sadness when someone dies.

All death, and especially premature death, should be celebrated by theists if they truly value heaven as a destination. Life is like a giant "Price is Right" game, and the young folks who get to the final round and get to choose death behind door #1 are the real winners. A long productive life must suck when you've got places to go and things to do. In heaven.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2011, 06:21:32 PM »
I know some theists who oppose all forms of death; that means they are against anyone dying no matter if aborted or executed.  Then, I know some theists who are for abortions but against the death penalty, for the death penalty but against abortions etc.,  I also know non-theists who are like this.  I really don't believe that religion really plays a role, in the end.

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Offline MathIsCool

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2011, 06:28:38 PM »
So sending someone to heaven (assuming he's a good person) is a bad thing, according to your deity. Gotcha
Yes, murdering is wrong according to Christians.  Glad you conceded the point.  Thank you.

Your hypothetical situations end in misery for the people who were raped etc. This is a hypothetical situation that ends in eternal bliss for the person murdered
You said before that we should honor human life because "they only get one shot at it."  Now you're changing your mind and arguing from some sort of social utilitarianism or empathy viewpoint.  Which is it?

Should you decide it's based on empathy, why is someone else being in misery bad for me under atheism?  You can natter on about empathy all you want, but I want a reason for it, not a proclamation of it. Why should I be bound by your quaint notions of empathy under atheism?

Mind you, Christianity gives a great reason for empathy, that humans are made in the image and likeness of God, the almighty and holy creator of the world.  Our lord, Jesus, commanded us love our neighbor as ourself.  Did Dr. Dawkins command you to do likewise?  Or is it that you slyly snuck in a Christian worldview in order to feel empathy toward your fellow man, but now want to reject it?  ;)

Seriously?
Yup.
Atheism is the lack of belief in deities. Belief in deities is not necessary to have morals. Therefore, atheism has nothing to do with morals
You can have morals.
Can you back them up?  Can you show why they ought to be followed?  Can you justify them?  Can you base them?
Or are they akin to my preference for Jelly Beans?  Are they mere preferences, vague I-kinda-like-it-when-I-don't-murder-people wishy washy feelings?  If so, why should I follow your rules vague wishy washy feelings?  Why should anyone?

Oh, and real quick @ ParkingPlaces:
God said not to murder.  We don't get to outsmart God.  You can come up with all the reasons you want to break God's commandments, (many do) but what's written in the Bible is still wrong.
Why not name the website ... "whywontGodallowlaserstoshootoutofmyeyespewpewpew.com"

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Offline One Above All

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2011, 06:32:28 PM »
Sorry, I just had to point out how stupid this is before I replied to my part:

God said not to murder.   We don't get to outsmart God.  You can come up with all the reasons you want to break God's commandments, (many do) but what's written in the Bible is still wrong.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2011, 06:35:43 PM »
Yes, murdering is wrong according to Christians.  Glad you conceded the point.  Thank you.

Which christians would those be? The OnetruechristiansTM? Or the others who advocate murder of gays etc; You know, people the Bible says you must murder

You said before that we should honor human life because "they only get one shot at it."  Now you're changing your mind and arguing from some sort of social utilitarianism or empathy viewpoint.  Which is it?

So it can't be both?

Should you decide it's based on empathy, why is someone else being in misery bad for me under atheism?  You can natter on about empathy all you want, but I want a reason for it, not a proclamation of it. Why should I be bound by your quaint notions of empathy under atheism?

This part proves you're not reading

Mind you, Christianity gives a great reason for empathy, that humans are made in the image and likeness of God, the almighty and holy creator of the world.  Our lord, Jesus, commanded us love our neighbor as ourself.  Did Dr. Dawkins command you to do likewise?  Or is it that you slyly snuck in a Christian worldview in order to feel empathy toward your fellow man, but now want to reject it?  ;)

This proves you're an idiot

You can have morals.
Can you back them up?  Can you show why they ought to be followed?  Can you justify them?  Can you base them?
Or are they akin to my preference for Jelly Beans?  Are they mere preferences, vague I-kinda-like-it-when-I-don't-murder-people wishy washy feelings?  If so, why should I follow your rules vague wishy washy feelings?  Why should anyone?

My morals are mine alone. Doesn't mean anyone should follow them. Morals are just that - what a person thinks is right and wrong
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline LadyLucy

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2011, 06:49:43 PM »
Exodous 20:13.

You say you oppose murder.  Why?  What's so special about human life on atheism that destroying it is wrong?

I think you missed the point: YOU get to go to this "heaven" that you believe in, supposedly. So if you die, shouldn't you be happy?

Edit: Ahh! Jeff PT and others clarified the point quite well. And yes, MathIsCool, we understand your Bible tells you not to murder. It's actually sad that you, supposedly, would murder someone and go sinning everywhere you go without the Bible. Having morals and ethics has nothing to do with books. It has to do with what is rational. Morals are subjective. Everyone is going to rationalize differently. But in the end, murdering is simply wrong. Why don't we murder? Simply because we don't. It's stupid. Just like being honest, helping others, making people happy is good. We don't need a book telling us what to do, because we can rationalize for ourselves.

So, how about you? What would hypothetically happen to you if your Bible didn't exist? Would every Christian be without morals?  I don't think they wouldn't, even without a book that has the Word of God in it. You know why? Because one does not need a "base" for morals. Well, the type of "base" that you are thinking of anyway. The only thing a person needs, as corny as this sounds, is a heart. Hell, even a nihilist like Nietzsche or any other nihilist would have a heart, despite them having their opinion that life doesn't matter. [tangent]Personally, life does matter, even without a heaven, hell, or whatever. Life is beautiful. And when I die, the end result is simple and direct: I die, go into a coffin, I have a funeral, and they bury me underground. It's exactly what it is. Does that mean that my life isn't worth it? Nonsense. It did. To those people around me, I mattered. I gave my mother joy. I gave others happiness. Even if everyone would suddenly vanish the next day, life is worth living.[/tangent]
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 07:02:25 PM by LadyAmorosaLuckyDulce »


Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2011, 06:50:32 PM »
Oh, and real quick @ ParkingPlaces:
God said not to murder.  We don't get to outsmart God.  You can come up with all the reasons you want to break God's commandments, (many do) but what's written in the Bible is still wrong.

The OP is talking about being murdered, not murdering. And how being murdered should be celebrated by christians because that means the victim gets to go to heaven early. And we are wondering why being murdered, and for that matter, any other early death, is not a cause for happiness and joy amongst the christian community.

We are wondering why christian funerals have tears, just like atheist funerals.

The morality of murder is, at least in my view, pretty reprehensible. I am totally against it. But the OP is simply wondering, when there is a victim, why the christian community doesn't celebrate the early trip to heaven?
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2011, 06:54:43 PM »
God said not to murder.

Except for all the numerous times he advocates acts of killing and violence and tells people to murder, or threatens people with death.

Morality is so much easier when you get to pick and choose, isn't it?

We don't get to outsmart God.

I have a five year old little brother who could outsmart god. The most god-like thing about the god of the bible is his capacity for doing stupid things. For example killing all humans on earth in a flood except for only a few of them. Who then proceed to turn around and do the exact same things that made him mad in the first place. Or for that matter all of the innumerable times that he tries to punish humanity with violence. None of which ever stop the behaviour he's trying to correct, yet he continually tries the same tactic over and over again.

Oh, and then there's his inability to communicate accurately with humans. Let the snake into the garden of eden knowing full-well what would happen. Called both a male and a female Adam. Got angry with the violence on earth and solved the problem by killing everyone on it. Has a creepy obsession with penises and a seething hatred of foreskins. Requests burnt dung as a sin-offering. Seriously, who couldn't outsmart this god?
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2011, 07:26:24 PM »
Jeff:
Look up Old Testament Ceremonial, Civil, and Moral laws, then get back to me.  Specifically, what category does the "don't Murder" law fall under?  What one does the "kill people who work on the Sabbath" fall under?  What does that tell us about which one to follow?
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=Old+Testament+Ceremonial%2C+Civil%2C+Moral+law&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=87b61fcb467d957c

Keep twisting and spinning, MiC.  Twist and spin. Mental gymnastics is your strong suit.  So is bullshitting it seems.   This is a complete nonsense argument.  Talking back to your mother and father is a moral issue.  Therefore it should fall under a moral law.  It's not a civil issue. 

It's a commandment from God man.  You're fucked if you don't kill children who talk back to you.  THAT is defensible position from reading the bible.  Need I remind you....   2 Samuel 22:31 Remember always, that the word of god is flawless.  And Isaiah 40:8 The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever.  Are you going to say "forever" only means a "little while" now too? 

Can you point to the passage of the bible that specifically says the civil, and ceremonial laws have been nixed, but the moral ones... now those you always have to follow?   Otherwise, you're more deluded than I thought. 

The only reason you cling to that bullshit is because you can't square your EMPATHY with what God does and says.  You have to do the gymnastics.  It's just so silly. 

You mentioned something about empathy, that it evolved out of us being a social species.  The instinct to have sex also evolved, and with it the instinct to rape.  Can you explain why we ought to obey the one evolved impulse (empathy) but not the other (rape)?

That has something to do with civil evolution, moral evolution, and ceremonial evolution MiC.  You see, The Westdarwin Confession, which is that body of learned evolutionists produced, and which is our own doctrinal standard, deals with the Law of evolution in its 19th chapter.  I hope that dumb shit sounds just as stupid to you as your argument did to me. 

In all seriousness, evolution has given us many things that are no longer useful in our environment.  The urge to gorge ourselves on overly fatty foods for one.  The instinct to rape, another.  The belief in the supernatural, a third.  The only reason we "ought" not to rape is the exact same reason we "ought" not to kill.  We don't want to feel that, and we respect other people, so we don't rape.  In the past, that instinct may have been required for the very survival of our species, (much like fatty food urges and supernatural beliefs) but it isn't necessary now.  It's much like a vestigial remnant like the appendix or male boobs.  We still have them, but they don't do anything now.  Our reasoning can overcome the urge to rape.  It can overcome our urge to eat huge amounts of fatty foods.  And it sure as hell can overcome our need to believe that this entire universe needs an explanation and that explanation has to be some lame ass character in an old book. 

You can cook up some story how we evolved social mores, and even were I to grant it, you have yet to show why we ought to follow our evolved social mores.  As the venerable Hume says, how can an ought follow from an is?

That's the interesting thing MiC.  We don't have to follow them.  We make the choice to follow them.  I could rape someone right now, but I don't.  Why?  Because I think it's wrong to rape someone.  I wouldn't want to be raped myself, so I'm not going to do it to someone else.  Lots of people share that opinion.  That's where society dictates the "oughts" by creating laws around them.  All you have to do is understand that everyone is an individual, and they each evolved and they each experienced growing up in a specific society which dictated what "oughts" they should follow.  That explains pretty well the way in which different societies are exist with different versions of what "ought" to be.   

As an atheist, I see that as a wonderful thing.  It allows me to understand that my "oughts" don't have to be someone elses' "oughts".  Of course I think everyone should be like me, but I don't push that.  You on the other hand, belong to a group that has long pushed it's belief about what "ought" to be onto millions of people over thousands of years, to the point of torture and murder.  Sleep well. 

Finally:
Your arguments about heaven being awesome so we should be anxious to send people there miss the point entirely.  We're not smarter than God.  He said not to murder people.  We (Christians) therefore don't.

Yeah you keep saying that, but what about when the person is ALREADY murdered?  THAT'S the question.  If they're dead, they're in heaven, right?  What's the problem?  So they got there by being murdered... who cares?  Does the bible say something about people who are murdered not going to heaven?  The murderee is not the murderer.  We aren't talking about the murderer here.  Can't you answer it without saying something about a completely different point that people weren't actually trying to make?   

Or if your too scared to answer that, how about you just answer the analogy I gave you?  If you have an awesome job on the horizon and all you have to do is get fired from your current one, why shouldn't you wish for being fired?  It's a simple question MiC.  Answer it.  And then explain where that analogy fails in terms of your God belief. 

It is only the atheist who can honestly mourn for the dead.  We know it's the end (well, at least most of us are pretty sure).  If you believe in God and heaven, you have no business mourning the dead.  They are supposedly in a better place.  You should be so lucky.   

And think of all those Japanese people who were killed in the tsunami.  That's thousands of people who died and are now with God.  Why are Christians around the world not celebrating it?  You either don't actually believe in heaven, or it's cognitive dissonance, where you simultaneously believe that heaven is the greatest place ever created, but dying and going there is a tragedy. 

Nuts man.  Just nuts. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Timo

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2011, 10:28:35 PM »
Hopefully you don't ignore this one too:

You can have morals.
Can you back them up?  Can you show why they ought to be followed?  Can you justify them?  Can you base them?
Or are they akin to my preference for Jelly Beans?  Are they mere preferences, vague I-kinda-like-it-when-I-don't-murder-people wishy washy feelings?  If so, why should I follow your rules vague wishy washy feelings?  Why should anyone?

On what basis can you demonstrate that following God's Law would be the right thing for me to do?  Notice that I didn't ask you to demonstrate that following God's Law is in my best interest.  Therefore appeals to hell are not really germane to the question at hand.  And reiterating that "God is smarter than us" is merely an appeal to authority.  It is not an answer to the question.  Rather it is an assurance that there is an answer because you believe that someone really smart told you that there is an answer.

So, can you back up your appeal to God as the source of morality?

Furthermore, if you manage to establish that God is indeed the source of morality, then how is it that we can draw this distinction between moral and civil or ceremonial law?  I know that traditionally, the Law is taught as having these distinctions.  But what I'm asking is, what do distinction even mean?  After all, if morality is merely what God commands us to do or not do then how can a commandment from God be anything but a moral law?  How can it be argued that failing to keep the Sabbath is not every bit as much a moral failing as killing an innocent?

You can cook up some story how we evolved social mores, and even were I to grant it, you have yet to show why we ought to follow our evolved social mores.  As the venerable Hume says, how can an ought follow from an is?

That's true. 

I think that evolution and socialization leaves everyone a sort of gut level morality.  There are things that are right and wrong to us that we don't really think through.  However, I agree with you that there is no logical reason to believe our moral intuitions are correct. 

Still, I think that I would a bit farther than you and argue that there is no logical reason to believe God's Laws are correct.  Likewise, I don't think that there's any logical reason to think that maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain should be the basis for morality.  And I don't think that there's any reason to think of stepping back behind John Rawls' veil of ignorance is anything more than a thought experiment.  None of these things are an obvious place to start building a moral system.  But that's my point.  I think that these sorts of assumptions are too basic to really be fleshed out in the same way that we might flesh out conclusions that follow from these assumptions.

In other words, there's no basis to the claim that atheists have no basis for morality.


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Offline Alzael

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Re: Why is murder of theists a big deal? (Full question in the topic)
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2011, 11:03:00 PM »
Actually MiC, you raise another interesting point as well. How can you possibly consider yourself to be a moral person? After all your entire basis for morality is adherence to what god tells you to do an what not to do. This makes you obedient, it doesn't really make you moral by most definitions of the word. Especially since your belief system punishes for not doing what god says and hands out rewards if you do behave as instructed.

So what it really comes down to is that your idea of "morals" amounts to doing as you're told so that you can be rewarded for it later by your cosmic sugar-daddy.

As an example, let's take a look at your arguments so far regarding the murder angle.

Exodous 20:13.

I am a Christian.  I was answering for Christians (of course not all Christians... but in this case, probably the vast majority of them)  For Christians, since "theists" are a sub-set of people, Exodous 20:13 still holds.

"Sure, God may have said not to murder... but he never said not to murder my neighbor Bob over there, and man when he mows his lawn he spits pinecones all over the place, and he mows it at like 8 in the morning when I'm still asleep, so... since the Bible never says not to specifically murder Bob....."

We're not smarter than God.  He said not to murder people.  We (Christians) therefore don't.

Our lord, Jesus, commanded us love our neighbor as ourself.  Did Dr. Dawkins command you to do likewise?

Every single response is nothing more than you saying that it's wrong for no other reason that someone else told you that it was wrong. You never articulate any reason of your own. Now let's look at some of the atheists thoughts on murder.

Simple.  Because this life is all there is.  And deep down, they have lurking feelings that it's true.

Because this life is the only one we have. Hence it's precious.

he only thing we have is this life. We need to preserve and cherish and enjoy it as much as possible for as long as possible, because we don't get another life. One value I affirm is that murder, ie. destroying any life needlessly, is immoral and wrong, and we should strive for a world where we don't need to kill. Killing, especially of another person like myself, has to be for a good reason. That is why murder is different from self-defense.

For me, as an unbeliever in any type of afterlife, violence of this level should never be tolerated. This is the only life we get. And this is also why MAN'S LAW prevails for those who do murder. You take my life, you spend the rest of yours behind bars and die there. I'm fortunate to live without any friends or family ever being murdered, but if it were to happen, I would at least find some solace in knowing the guilty person suffers to the end.

t's empathy.  We don't want to kill others because we don't want to be killed ourselves, and we understand that others will probably feel the same way.  It's instinctual.  Comes from evolution of a social species; through the same processes that gave us the sensation of hunger when we need food, and thirst when we need water.  But under special circumstances, that instinct can be overridden and killing will become the best possible option.

[tangent]Personally, life does matter, even without a heaven, hell, or whatever. Life is beautiful. And when I die, the end result is simple and direct: I die, go into a coffin, I have a funeral, and they bury me underground. It's exactly what it is. Does that mean that my life isn't worth it? Nonsense. It did. To those people around me, I mattered. I gave my mother joy. I gave others happiness. Even if everyone would suddenly vanish the next day, life is worth living.[/tangent]

Interesting difference isn't it? The atheists don't talk about mere obedience. The atheists talk about the value of life itself. How fleeting it is and how beautiful it can be. They speak of empathy and preserving and protecting life. They think beyond one sentence and do more than just quote a verse written by someone else who told them it was wrong. You see them talking about giving happiness to the people they loved and others. And they do it without someone giving them a promise of eternal rewards, threat of torture, or commands from an all-powerful deity.

So again, I ask the relevant question. How do you consider yourself to be a moral person.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

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