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Offline velkyn

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Re: Me
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2011, 08:23:14 AM »
well, SOI, you are pretty typical. You've decided that you and only you know waht God "really" meant.  You want to call anyone who disagrees with you a hypocrite, though you have no evidence of your own that you are more right than them in anyway. 

You claim to be a bible literalist but we can see that you pick and choose as much as any other Christian.  You just use your "magic decoder ring" to tell you what is literal and what you can ignore conveniently. 

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Micah 6:6-9 is closer to me.
this is close to you???
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6 With what shall I come before the LORD and bow down before the exalted God?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? 7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams,  with ten thousand rivers of olive oil? Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression,  the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? 8 He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.  And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly[a] with your God. Israel’s Guilt and Punishment 9 Listen! The LORD is calling to the city—    and to fear your name is wisdom—    “Heed the rod and the One who appointed it.
  Many religions have this exact instruction, do good and obey the god.  Nothing new here.  I do good and think God doesn't exist since there is no reason to.  And for this, people like you get their jollies telling me I deserve eternal torture. 
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Reading and obeying.
So you obey all of God's laws? I do wonder how many adulterers you've killed.  I suspect you'll claim that you don't have to since JC said you didn't. But if you actually read your bible, there is nothing sayign that at all, especially considering that the world is still around and thus the law is still supposedly in effect. 
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I did something very odd when reading the Gospels. I obeyed his words, truly from the heart. And guess what, it actually works.
So giving up all of your posessions, hating your family really works?  How does it "work"?  What benefits have you gained from this obediance?
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One word that you all lack, Hope.
Funny how I have plenty of hope.  I am amused by Christians who intentionally lie in order to feel better about themselves.  Would you also like to call atheists bitter, lonely, sad, and all of the other terms that Christians call us when they are trying to convince themselves that atheists are less than they are? 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline frofrodajimmyboy

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Re: Me
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2011, 08:46:28 AM »
One word that you all lack, Hope.

I don't understand, SOI.  Why are you telling deliberate lies with no aim other than to insult the members of this forum?  Did I mention something about you being a troll in one of my last posts?  I swear that I did...

Offline SOI

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Re: Me
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2011, 08:55:55 AM »
Again, the reason why I thought this testimonial would be ridiculous was because you all pick me apart, like some type of dissection.


I will try to respond to all of your posts, but if I don't, don't take it as though I am ignoring you or avoiding the question. I am a busy man, with many responsibilities.


Again, I will try to respond to all of the posts, be patient with me.


I will check in later after I have completed some work.


Rock Chalk atheists

Offline velkyn

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Re: Me
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2011, 09:18:50 AM »
seems like you are from Kansas which could explain a few things, unfortunately.
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Offline SOI

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Re: Me
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2011, 10:15:33 AM »
OK, that is satisfactory.

Although, the last comment was unnecessary:

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- how do you know your religious ideas are correct?
One word that you all lack, Hope.

We don't lack hope.

For example, there is hope that my baby will come out perfectly OK, despite knowing that he is healthy at the moment. (Anything could go wrong, who knows? I tend to worry a little bit, just because I am human, and that's why there's hope that everything will be OK.)

What we lack is faith.  ;)


I don't think that I am far away from the truth if I claim that you all are without hope. What I mean is, in the theology of an atheist, he exists now, dies and then never again.

Am I right?

Nothing beyond that? Where's the hope in a future in that? And don't speak to me about legacies. Because a ton of legacies have been forgotten.


Quote from: modbreak
fixed quotes

SOI, please work on your quoting. 
~ Screwtape
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 10:26:23 AM by screwtape »

Offline SOI

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Re: Me
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2011, 10:43:49 AM »
When I was younger I attended several Christian churches trying to understand and find "faith". As you are searching for more like yourself, for true followers of Jesus' words, what are you looking for? How do you define a true follower of Jesus?
 




Defintion of a follower of Jesus - Those who hear his words and do them from a pure heart.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Me
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2011, 10:49:53 AM »
I don't think that I am far away from the truth if I claim that you all are without hope. What I mean is, in the theology of an atheist, he exists now, dies and then never again.

Am I right?

Nothing beyond that? Where's the hope in a future in that? And don't speak to me about legacies. Because a ton of legacies have been forgotten.

That's the bug up your ass?  Eternal life?  Immortality?  We are "without hope" because we accept the fact that we are going to die and that's the end of the line?  That's a really narrow and ungrateful way to look at things.  If you cannot live forever, then life is a bitter, pointless exercise.   You have to have every wonderful thing this world has to offer and you have to have eternal heaven on top of it all.  You greedy bastard.

Well, I don't see it that way. I see it opposite of that. 

If I did have an eternal soul, then life would be completely pointless.  If I thought I was going to heaven where everything is great to the nth degree and I got to play with jesus H and my deceased grand parents and pets and eat ice cream and have fun and bliss forever, then I don't think I would be able to die soon enough.  Why fart around with school, a job, paying bills, getting sick, and experiencing the general pain that is associated with all human life?  Why not hurry up and get to paradise?  Life is nothing compared to heaven.

On the other hand, if life is all there is, I'd better savor it.  The world is enough for me.  I do not demand magic and eternal life on top of it. 

Penn Jillette says it better

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Offline Alzael

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Re: Me
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2011, 10:52:22 AM »

Defintion of a follower of Jesus - Those who hear his words and do them from a pure heart.

And what if they hear the words differently than you do?
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline SOI

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Re: Me
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2011, 10:58:00 AM »

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I grew up catholic too.  I also purged myself of it.  The difference is, I questioned the very fundamentals of it.  You seem to have kept some ideas and created your own.

I di not create my own, I simply began to seek further and saw the hypocrisy of the Catholic Church's doctrines and behavior.

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How do you know what to take literally and what to take figuratively?  Do you allow women to teach you or to speak in church?

It can be tricky what to take literal and figurative. For example, Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac. The NT scriptures sometimes clarify what God meant i.e. the true definition of murder.

Women, yes they can speak in church. Paul's letter's are often used improperly. People forget that he was speaking to a particular church in a letter at that particular time. There were many prophetess' in the Bible. OT prophets say that God will speak through both sexes.




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That does not tell me why I should believe.  What do you mean "it works"? 

The words.



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I don't find this to be very charitable. I find this to be rather arrogant and mocking.  I also do not think it answers my question.  If it does, I need more explanation.

I don't mean to sound arrogant or mocking. Am I far from the truth with this statement. Jesus only meant to give you hope for a future. In an atheist's theology, this life is it. No more. Not a whole lot of hope in that? Please no talk of a legacy, that is arrogance.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Me
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2011, 11:15:32 AM »
all Christians claim they are "Defintion of a follower of Jesus - Those who hear his words and do them from a pure heart." and insist that those "other" Christians who dont' agree with them aren't Christians at all. 

And again we see that you are a typical Christian in that you try to change the meaning of words.  I have hope, for myself, those I love, for humanity as a whole.  I don't need a promise of an afterlife to have that. 

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It can be tricky what to take literal and figurative. For example, Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac. The NT scriptures sometimes clarify what God meant i.e. the true definition of murder.
So what is this "true definition"? 


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Women, yes they can speak in church. Paul's letter's are often used improperly. People forget that he was speaking to a particular church in a letter at that particular time. There were many prophetess' in the Bible. OT prophets say that God will speak through both sexes.
Oh so we can ignore what we want since it was to only a particular church?  So, now homosexuals are okay with God as are those who don't belive in him?  Where does the OT prophets say that God will speak through both sexes?  I've read it a coupel of times, as a believer and as not, and I don't recall that part. 

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The words.
How does it work?  What are the benefits you receive? 

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I don't mean to sound arrogant or mocking. Am I far from the truth with this statement. Jesus only meant to give you hope for a future. In an atheist's theology, this life is it. No more. Not a whole lot of hope in that? Please no talk of a legacy, that is arrogance.

And again, more lies about no one having hope except Christians just like you.  Rather sad.  What you describe is fear, not hope.  You are so afraid of death that you need to believe in some magical afterlife. 
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Me
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2011, 01:33:21 PM »
I don't think that I am far away from the truth if I claim that you all are without hope. What I mean is, in the theology of an atheist, he exists now, dies and then never again.

Am I right?

Nothing beyond that? Where's the hope in a future in that? And don't speak to me about legacies. Because a ton of legacies have been forgotten.

When your only source of hope is made up, your world is fragile. You apparently can't tolerate reality, so you make up your own infinity and then chide us for not playing your game.

Hope is not a necessity. It's nice to have some, but not so much that it takes up all of time. I hope the japanese reactor thing turns out tolerably well. I hope food prices don't rise too quick. I hope my kids have a good life. Said hope has no connection with reality. Negative outcomes are quite possible no matter what I want to have happen. The purpose of hope is to help us define our preferences in certain situations. It has nothing to do with reality. I could easily go into fantasy mode and hope all sorts of fantastic things, from great wealth and Ferrari's to movie star girlfriends. But such thoughts have no purpose, whether they be my hedonistic examples or your infinite life in heaven one.

LadyAm hopes she has a healthy child, and I trust that, to help the process along, she is doing healthy things. I hope she is eating right, following her OB/GYN's orders, maintaining a great relationship with her husband, avoiding alcohol, etc. All the hope in the world would do her no good if she was pregnant and doing meth, driving drunk, having unprotected sex with possibly HIV positive individuals and robbing banks to support her habit. Like most normal people, I am sure she is not dependen only hope to get her through the next six months until the baby is born. (Hope it's okay that I used you as an example, Lady).

I hope I have food to eat next week. Towards that end, I'm working this week. I hope I stay healthy as long as possible. Towards that end I minimize junk food intake, exercise and avoid unhealthy activities. I hope I understand what is happening in Japan. Towards that end I read a variety of news sources, scientific explanations of earthquakes and meltdowns, economic forecasts, and watch how other people and countries are reacting to that tragedy. I could just hope to know it all and sit back and wait for the info and insight to flow in from some unknown and undefinable source, but I've noticed over the last 59 years that that never works.

I once knew a 17 year old high school senior who told me with absolute conviction that he hoped to be a star quarterback in the NFL. He had never played in a single organized football game, be it Pop Warner, middle school or high school. But he had hopes to be the best in his field. That was 15 years ago. I didn't notice his name on any team roster this year. Or in any year. Hope guarantees absolutely nothing.

Hope is no big deal. It is interesting. It's nice that we can have it. But it predicts the future with no more reliability than a crank psychic with a crystal ball. I'm glad we have it in our human tool kit, but I'll never be guilty of spending my whole frickin' life depending on that one big hope in the sky for which there isn't one iota of evidence. Other than words from other equally disconnected hopers (aka christians).
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Me
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2011, 01:35:40 PM »
Again, the reason why I thought this testimonial would be ridiculous was because you all pick me apart, like some type of dissection.

SOI,

What we do here on this forum, the whole point of it, is to discuss, analyze, and examine religious ideas.  It is not here for people to sound off.  It is not for people to make religious proclamations and go unchallenged.  The very name of the site is a challenge.  It is inherently confrontational.   So, I do not understand your cranky attitude.

This kind of criticism and analysis is how people test their ideas, religious or otherwise.  It is how we make sure what we believe matches reality.  It is how we get smarter.  Why not use this as an opportunity to have others help you examine yor beliefs?  You might find something new.  You might discover that something you thought was The Truth contradicts with something else you thought was The Truth.  You might find new truth.  I'm not even talking about making you an atheist, though that would be ideal.

If that is not for you, if you are going to piss and moan about being "dissected", if you are going to make us drag every last piece of information out of you, if you are not interested in examining your beliefs, then you are hanging out with the wrong crowd.  I am not trying to run you off.  Truly, I am not.   You just seem...unhappy about your experience here.  You seem reluctant to write anything. 

What do you want to get out of your experience here?  What are your expectations?

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Offline LadyLucy

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Re: Me
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2011, 01:40:48 PM »
LadyAm hopes she has a healthy child, and I trust that, to help the process along, she is doing healthy things. I hope she is eating right, following her OB/GYN's orders, maintaining a great relationship with her husband, avoiding alcohol, etc. All the hope in the world would do her no good if she was pregnant and doing meth, driving drunk, having unprotected sex with possibly HIV positive individuals and robbing banks to support her habit. Like most normal people, I am sure she is not dependen only hope to get her through the next six months until the baby is born. (Hope it's okay that I used you as an example, Lady).

Perfectly fine! [I took no offense, since I'm not a dumb-fuck. ;) I see what you are doing there. +1 on post]

On a side-note: Baby's wonderfully healthy, and so am I, according to my doctors. :D I have been taking great care of myself, one said (the most recent one I've seen, about 2 weeks ago for an update, based on all the blood and urine samples I've done). <-- Action > Hope


Offline screwtape

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Re: Me
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2011, 02:05:23 PM »

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I grew up catholic too.  I also purged myself of it.  The difference is, I questioned the very fundamentals of it.  You seem to have kept some ideas and created your own.

I di not create my own, I simply began to seek further and saw the hypocrisy of the Catholic Church's doctrines and behavior.

Sure you did.  That's not derogatory.  The bible can be confusing and seems to have many contradictions.  You must necessarily make choices about which half of the contradiction you think is right. You must necessarily make interpretations.  Thus, you must have your own ideas about it.


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How do you know what to take literally and what to take figuratively?  Do you allow women to teach you or to speak in church?

It can be tricky what to take literal and figurative.

I know it can be tricky.  I've read the bible.  What I want to know is, how you know which is which.  What method do you use?  How can I know the difference?  How is it that lots of other people[1] came to different conclusions than you?


Women, yes they can speak in church. Paul's letter's are often used improperly. People forget that he was speaking to a particular church in a letter at that particular time. There were many prophetess' in the Bible. OT prophets say that God will speak through both sexes.

I disagree. That chapter was about how to have an orderly service.  Paul talked about people speaking in tongues and making prophesies, taking turns, etc.  Then he went out of his way to say women should stfu and if they had questions, ask their husbands at home.  Then back to prophesies.  This makes a pretty clear-cut case against you.   

You have said previously the NT clarifies and "over rules" the OT.  Now you are saying in this case, it is the other way around.  How do you know when to believe which?  To me it looks like you made a choice about how to interpret a particular passage based on your personal preference.  You probably do not like the idea that women should keep silent.  You probably find that sexist and appalling.  I know I do.  So you chose to keep your moral perspective on the situation and justify it using other parts of the bible rather than think your god wants women to shut up and sit down.  Other people throughout history have come to the opposite conclusion as you.  How do you know they are not right and you are not wrong?

Don't get me wrong.  I agree with you that if you have to be in a church, it should be okay for women to speak and teach.  In fact, I think we'd be better off in many cases if men stfu.  I'm just making the point that, the bible does not agree with your modern day ideas of morality and sexual equality.

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That does not tell me why I should believe.  What do you mean "it works"? 

The words.
 1. I believe there are about 30,000 denominations of xianity

that does not help me.  I am further from understanding than before.



I don't mean to sound arrogant or mocking. Am I far from the truth with this statement. Jesus only meant to give you hope for a future. In an atheist's theology, this life is it. No more. Not a whole lot of hope in that? Please no talk of a legacy, that is arrogance.

I addressed this in an earlier post.

edit - added link and some text to paragraphs about women in church.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 02:15:51 PM by screwtape »
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Offline SOI

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Re: Me
« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2011, 03:29:28 PM »
Quote
Why not use this as an opportunity to have others help you examine yor beliefs?  You might find something new.  You might discover that something you thought was The Truth contradicts with something else you thought was The Truth.  You might find new truth.  I'm not even talking about making you an atheist, though that would be ideal.If that is not for you, if you are going to piss and moan about being "dissected", if you are going to make us drag every last piece of information out of you, if you are not interested in examining your beliefs, then you are hanging out with the wrong crowd.  I am not trying to run you off.  Truly, I am not.   You just seem...unhappy about your experience here.  You seem reluctant to write anything. 

What do you want to get out of your experience here?  What are your expectations?



I am not cranky.

I just saw through the facade of my "testimonial." I knew that's what you guys were requesting, an exceptable request, but I knew you were going to dislike it extremely. Is that not the case?

I would not get away with the abusive language poured my way. I would be in violation of your rules (laws). And that's precisely what I have been saying all along. Two different natures. Two different appetites.

If you do not want to run me off, then quit suggesting it. Based off of your last response, I may have struck a chord.

What do I want to get out of my experience here? Truth.

My expectations? An even playing field.




Offline SOI

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Re: Me
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2011, 03:45:28 PM »
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Okay, so you have your own version of the Bible. Some things are taken literally (the trinity is not in the Bible) and yet you are still cherry-picking (hell is not eternal). There is the "lake of burning sulfur" where the devil and the false prophet (a human) are thrown, and "they will be tormented day and night, for ever and ever"- Rev 20:10- so this hell is eternal, and there is a human in it. You could argue that the "lake of fire" mentioned in Rev 20:15 is not the "lake of burning sulfur", but there is still an eternal hell, with at least one non-believer in it.

I believe the correct word there is aion (forever), I may be incorrect. Which means for a period of time. And if you read many verses, there is much talk of destruction, of walking on the ashes of the non-believers.


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Question: Why do you believe in YHWH and not, for example, El Eljon or El Shaddai, who are other Gods of the Bible? Many Christians don't know that when the Bible says "Elohim" it's not referring to YHWH. What makes YHWH so much better than El Eljon or El Shaddai?

I will admit that I am weak in my knowledge of these other names. I know that some of the names have to do with the Hebrew language and translation. (Many of you will take this has a weakness.)

I know in Exodus 6:3 is where he reveals his true name as YHWH. Deuteronomy 6:4 is not confusing at all about how many number he is.

« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 03:48:16 PM by SOI »

Offline SOI

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Re: Me
« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2011, 03:52:14 PM »
Quote
Micah 6:6-9 does not answer the question of biblical literalism. Micah 6:6-7 just talk about offering sacrifices, from rams to oil to your child, as a forgiveness of sin. Verse 8 tells you that you need to act justly, love mercy, and to walk humbly with God. Verse 9 has nothing to do with any of the others. Nothing about how to see if a verse is literal or not.

Forgive me, 6-8.

You all know that animals were sacrificed for man's sins (not to your child, this much is obvious). The writer is stating that God see's the inner man and man must "do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly with God."

Offline screwtape

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Re: Me
« Reply #46 on: March 17, 2011, 03:55:16 PM »
I am not cranky.

Oh, you're cranky alright, mister.

I just saw through the facade of my "testimonial." I knew that's what you guys were requesting, an exceptable request, but I knew you were going to dislike it extremely. Is that not the case?

What I dislike is how incomplete it is, how I have to drag information out of you.  I feel like an interrogator and I do not like that.  The content has not been a problem, at least not the way you seem to be implying.  Sure, I disagree with many of your beliefs, but so what?  Have I beaten you up for it?


I would not get away with the abusive language poured my way. I would be in violation of your rules (laws). And that's precisely what I have been saying all along. Two different natures. Two different appetites.

Stop with the martyr routine.  If you don't like it, report it. 

If you do not want to run me off, then quit suggesting it. Based off of your last response, I may have struck a chord.

I didn't suggest it.  I said, you seem pessimistic and unhappy.  I did not want you to mistake my words as an invitation to leave. 

What do I want to get out of my experience here? Truth.

Can you handle the truth?  What if truth does not conform to your beliefs?  Are you prepared to alter your beliefs?

My expectations? An even playing field.

That is a reasonable expectation.  Let me tell you one of my expectations.  I expect you to be engaged. 

Ask me a question.  Make it a good question, not something sappy, like "are you prepared to answer for your sins".  Something informational.
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Offline Dante

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Re: Me
« Reply #47 on: March 17, 2011, 03:56:23 PM »
My expectations? An even playing field.

This place is about an even a playing field as one could hope to come across. And, as in life, while the playing field is even, the strengths of each "competitor" are not. You, unfortunately, seem to have brought a wet noodle to a gunfight.

You will require more than that to be able to hold discussion here.

Good luck.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline SOI

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Re: Me
« Reply #48 on: March 17, 2011, 03:57:34 PM »
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And what is "the truth" to you? How do you know you have the "right" interpretation of the Bible? How do you know what you think is figurative (eternal hell) and what is literal? When Jesus said that you have to hate your family to love God, *of course* he didn't mean hate, he meant ___. Except some people think it literally means "hate" since Jesus often dissed his own family (calling the believers his family, rather than his blood family) and tells people to leave their families like in Matt 8:22/Luke 9:60, Jesus tells a man whose father just died to not bury his father and comfort his family, but to leave everything and follow him. In Luke 9:62, Jesus tells a man that he can't go back to say goodbye to his family or else he is not fit "for service in the kingdom of God". So, if Jesus would rather have a man's family think he has gone missing or dead instead of the man being able to tell his family not only where he was going, but he could have told his family the "good news" of Jesus as well. Or, how in Luke 12:49-53 how Jesus says that he didn't come to bring peace, but division, pitting family members against one another.

"What is truth?" Pontious Pilate quote. The truth is this, eternal life. And all those who love his commandments will receive it.

I have family members, not immediate, who call themselves believers, who know no truth. Division, YES.

Offline SOI

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Re: Me
« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2011, 03:59:10 PM »
And when one of my immediate family members goes astray, even a little. Division, yes.

I am having an extremely tough time posting. I hope the Mods are not affecting this.


Offline screwtape

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Re: Me
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2011, 04:02:42 PM »
I will admit that I am weak in my knowledge of these other names. I know that some of the names have to do with the Hebrew language and translation. (Many of you will take this has a weakness.)

bold mine.  It sounds like you are preemptively complaining about us judging you.  Yet you just called it a weakness.  Stop doing that.  Stop assuming we are going to be jerks.  We might surprise you.


I am having an extremely tough time posting. I hope the Mods are not affecting this.

Can you explain the problem?  The only time mods can hold up posts is when you are in moderated status.  That would be indicated on your profile and you would have reveived several PMs before that point indicating your status. You are not in moderated status nor have you been.
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What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Nam

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Re: Me
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2011, 04:28:46 PM »
I gave you a -1 for these things:

I was directed here to give my testimonial (laughs). No I am not laughing at you. I am laughing at the entire concept.

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I believe that by this "admittance (laughs)" that I have opened up a pandora's box for questioning or poking holes in my beliefs. But, whatever. Lol.

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On a side note. Who wins the tournament?

Why?  'Cause you present yourself as being up for zero discussion on this forum.  Whether to better your own knowledge in what you believe in; which you could learn a lot from those who do not believe in what you do; we probably know more about your religion than you or perhaps even many other people who hold to your particular religion -- since we study it to debate against it.   Also, I feel that you're just setting yourself up as a troll.  People tend to not take too kindly of those sorts of creatures here -- I wonder why?

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Larissa238

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Re: Me
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2011, 06:18:34 PM »
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Okay, so you have your own version of the Bible. Some things are taken literally (the trinity is not in the Bible) and yet you are still cherry-picking (hell is not eternal). There is the "lake of burning sulfur" where the devil and the false prophet (a human) are thrown, and "they will be tormented day and night, for ever and ever"- Rev 20:10- so this hell is eternal, and there is a human in it. You could argue that the "lake of fire" mentioned in Rev 20:15 is not the "lake of burning sulfur", but there is still an eternal hell, with at least one non-believer in it.

I believe the correct word there is aion (forever), I may be incorrect. Which means for a period of time. And if you read many verses, there is much talk of destruction, of walking on the ashes of the non-believers.

It uses the root word "aión" twice- so for ever and for ever again. http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/165.htm I got the Greek interlinear Bible, looked up the words, and this site also says "aión" can mean for eternity ("and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.") The same word is used in other places to mean "an age", but pretty much every single Bible since the KJV translates it's use here to "forever and ever". Even those who use "age" use it as "to the ages of the ages." (source: http://bible.cc/revelation/20-10.htm )

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Question: Why do you believe in YHWH and not, for example, El Eljon or El Shaddai, who are other Gods of the Bible? Many Christians don't know that when the Bible says "Elohim" it's not referring to YHWH. What makes YHWH so much better than El Eljon or El Shaddai?

I will admit that I am weak in my knowledge of these other names. I know that some of the names have to do with the Hebrew language and translation. (Many of you will take this has a weakness.)

I know in Exodus 6:3 is where he reveals his true name as YHWH. Deuteronomy 6:4 is not confusing at all about how many number he is.

Exodus 6:3 just said that God showed himself as El Shaddai to Abraham, Issac, and Jacob; while to Moses he said his name was YHWH. This is interesting, since he also told Moses in Exodus 3:15 that he was YHWH, and Elohei. YHWH translates to "The Lord" and Elohai as "God" (http://biblos.com/exodus/3-15.htm). So wouldn't God's real name be Elohai, since that means "God"? Don't you wonder why there are all these different names for God? It's because the Pentateuch has 4 authors and one person who just tried to make everything mesh. You see that meshing here- the writer is trying to make all the different names for the Hebrew GodS into one. (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_tora1.htm)

Please, learn about the history of the book you claim as holy before declaring you are on the "one true path" and following the "one true God (Elohai=God)" when you don't even know the true name of your God since he is based off of different gods.

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Micah 6:6-9 does not answer the question of biblical literalism. Micah 6:6-7 just talk about offering sacrifices, from rams to oil to your child, as a forgiveness of sin. Verse 8 tells you that you need to act justly, love mercy, and to walk humbly with God. Verse 9 has nothing to do with any of the others. Nothing about how to see if a verse is literal or not.

Forgive me, 6-8.

You all know that animals were sacrificed for man's sins (not to your child, this much is obvious). The writer is stating that God see's the inner man and man must "do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly with God."

I question your reading comprehension here. I used "from A to B to C" within commas to indicate that they were to be taken as a group. You didn't think I meant that you sacrificed your rams to your oil, and then sacrificed the oil to your child, then sacrificed your child to god, did you? When something is in commas, like in the case above and here, it's being shown as a group and as an example. You take from the first comma and could take out the words between them and make sense. Hence, you could do that as: "just talk about offering sacrifices as a forgiveness of sin." I think you are a native English speaker and should know this. If not, what language are you reading your Bible in, and which translation? If you can't understand the basics of a sentence in English, you should not be offering literary criticism on something as complicated as the Bible (in English).

"What is truth?" Pontious Pilate quote. The truth is this, eternal life. And all those who love his commandments will receive it.

So, which of Jesus' commandments do you follow? You are kosher, right? You don't wear fiber of two mixed fibers and you don't eat shellfish? How many adulterers and disobedient children have you stoned? You see, Jesus did not come to get rid of the OT laws, (Matthew 5:17-18) but to tell people that "not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished". Also, have you learned to type with one hand? I'm sure you have sinned using your right hand, so Jesus says to cut it off. Have you ever looked at a woman lustfully? Do you still have both eyes? If you still have both eyes and both hands, you are not following what Jesus said. Unless you are typing from a library computer, since you have no home or possessions (since Jesus told you to sell everything and give it to the poor) then you are not following Jesus's words.

Every example above was taken from Matthew 5 and 6. There are many more examples in just these 2 chapters. Make sure you are following Jesus, and not the fake prophet Paul. Paul takes the things Jesus says and corrupts it and twists the meanings of it. I don't know how he got into the Bible.

I have family members, not immediate, who call themselves believers, who know no truth. Division, YES.

And when one of my immediate family members goes astray, even a little. Division, yes.

I hope you don't mind that I moved the two posts of yours together to keep the idea going. So, do you love your family or do you hate them? Do any of your family members have the exact same beliefs as you do? You seem to have trouble finding a church where you approve of the believers (since you have your own twisted version of what the scriptures mean), so I would think it would be hard for even your family to have the exact same beliefs as you.

You are judging your family members by saying they are going astray. Who are you to know the inner workings of their mind? What if the things you think are "astray" are actually supported by the Bible? You, sir, are judging- something Jesus said not to do. Another command of Jesus you are not following.

Not to toot my own horn, but as you can see I know the Bible quite well, from the years I read it daily and taking notes on it. I learned even more on this site. There are so many contradictions in there that you can use it to support genocide, rape, murder, polygamy, and so much more. Feel free to ask me about any of these- I can support them with verses if you wish.

I know you probably got distracted, but I would like to hear what you think about the rest of my post.
Quote from: Larissa238
Quote from: SOI
- if the latter, how did you come to them?
Reading and obeying.

- understanding that I have been religious and then came to believe it was all a load of rubbish, explain to me why I should believe what you believe.
I did something very odd when reading the Gospels. I obeyed his words, truly from the heart. And guess what, it actually works.

I too, at one time, obeyed the Bible as close to literal as I could get, all day every day for years. I truly believed in God, everything, heart and soul. In the middle of that time, I had a mental breakdown and became severely depressed and suicidal. I even had a verse in the Bible telling me suicide was a forgivable sin (the only unforgivable sin being cursing the Holy Spirit), so I could somehow kill myself and still go to heaven. No matter how hard I tried to keep it, I lost hope. This is all while I was still a devout believer, by the way.

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- how do you know your religious ideas are correct?
One word that you all lack, Hope.

1. You are assuming here. I now have hope in my life, something I have only found as a non-believer since the onset of my illness. I don't get hope from God, I get it from trying to make the best out of what I've got.

2. If hope is the only way you know your ideas are correct, I feel sorry for you. I can hope all I want that there is a fluffy pink unicorn out there just for me, but that doesn't make it correct or real. I'm a person of facts. There is no evidence for the bible out there besides itself and other propaganda. There are no remains in the desert of Moses and the people he led out of Egypt. There are no signs that a large Jewish population resided in Egypt at the time of Moses. I spoke above about the "one, true God of the Bible" and how that's a lie. There are more than one God in the Bible, they have different names given to them by the people who wrote that part of the Bible. If your book can't even agree on if there is one God or many, don't you think that would be a HUGE stumbling block for someone with faith?
On why Christians and non-Christians have the same rate of divorce:

He would rather it that they worship Him, instead of spending their time on family.

Offline voodoo child

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Re: Me
« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2011, 10:16:11 PM »
I don't think that I am far away from the truth if I claim that you all are without hope. What I mean is, in the theology of an atheist, he exists now, dies and then never again.

Am I right?

Nothing beyond that? Where's the hope in a future in that? And don't speak to me about legacies. Because a ton of legacies have been forgotten.

that's because I don't care what happens when I am dead. I'm dead. the end. I was nothing before I was born.
why would a god care about you're legacies, what use would a god have with the legacies of simple humans?

 a ton of legacies have also been remembered.

how about we do it your way SOI, drop everything to follow the teachings of a fictional character. I would say the population of planet earth would drop rapidly. god don't fix roofs, cure diseases, help deliver baby's or clean the water.
The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

Online wright

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Re: Me
« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2011, 11:18:26 PM »
So legacies don't last forever. What of it? Why should that make atheists despair? Nothing lasts forever; from galaxies to Saturn's rings to my favorite cat to me. Getting upset about that is like a child getting mad at gravity.

Why should hope be contingent on something or someone existing eternally? That's just wish-fulfillment, arising from our instinct to survive as long as possible. We're rational beings, or can choose to be, and can still accomplish amazing things in the handful of decades most of us have.

Carl Sagan is a prime example: a scientist and educator who advanced human knowledge and communicated his enthusiasm for doing so to millions of others; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sagan.

Stanislav Petrov is another: a Lt. Colonel in the former Soviet Union. He may have prevented a nuclear exchange between the late unlamented USSR and the USA; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov.

My point is that "legacies", however they're defined, can have profound effects, even if they don't last.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
--Marcus Aurelius

Offline grant

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Re: Me
« Reply #55 on: March 18, 2011, 04:51:03 AM »
I was directed here to give my testimonial (laughs). No I am not laughing at you. I am laughing at the entire concept.


I believe in YHWH. I believe that Jesus is the Son of the Living God. I believe that he is not the second head of the trinity. I believe in the destruction (by fire/non existent anymoooore) of non-believers, and not an eternal hell.

I believe that by this "admittance (laughs)" that I have opened up a pandora's box for questioning or poking holes in my beliefs. But, whatever. Lol.



On a side note. Who wins the tournament?

BIG = MINE

Having a bit of a peruse through the thread, I'd say NOT YOU

But after thats said, forget it.
What if the hokey pokey is what its all about?

Offline velkyn

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Re: Me
« Reply #56 on: March 18, 2011, 08:16:15 AM »
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Micah 6:6-9 does not answer the question of biblical literalism. Micah 6:6-7 just talk about offering sacrifices, from rams to oil to your child, as a forgiveness of sin. Verse 8 tells you that you need to act justly, love mercy, and to walk humbly with God. Verse 9 has nothing to do with any of the others. Nothing about how to see if a verse is literal or not.

Forgive me, 6-8.

You all know that animals were sacrificed for man's sins (not to your child, this much is obvious). The writer is stating that God see's the inner man and man must "do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly with God."

no, SOI, no one said that anything was being sacrificed to any child, but that children were to be sacrificed.  Look at the grammar.   So God seems to be down with human sacrifice, which isn't suprising. 

I am always amused when Christians are so ignorant of their own bible. You'd think you'd all study it 24/7 to make sure you weren't damned.  And "forever" may be a unit of time but it's *forever* not some time with an end.  We always have Christians here, all sure that their interpretation of what God 'really' meant is the only right one and you, as all of them, have no evidence of this.  Only your particular self-projection as god, aka spag. 

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"What is truth?" Pontious Pilate quote. The truth is this, eternal life. And all those who love his commandments will receive it.
So again, how many adulterers have you killed?  How many breaking the sabbath?  Do you love his commandments or do you pick and choose, SOI? 

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I have family members, not immediate, who call themselves believers, who know no truth. Division, YES.
  and so do show how your version is the only "right" one.  Do you belive that JC said that his followers would be able to do miracles even greater than him?  If so, where are your miracles, SOI?  Who have you healed?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 08:27:55 AM by velkyn »
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Offline SOI

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Re: Me
« Reply #57 on: March 20, 2011, 12:01:47 AM »
I find there to be a great disagreement between us. One where either of us will convince the other of there beliefs or in your case unbeliefs. I have no great frustrations with you, or dusting of my feet. And I don't question my own faith either.

I just want to leave all of you with one final thought. Where is it all headed if there is an entire society of humans that have no beliefs?

1984 comes to mind. A ruling class that mocked people well after they had enslaved and deceived them. Surely all of you can see this train wreck coming? Do you think that all of you can combine your power and resources to fight back? Do you think that you can overcome each other to accomplish this?

And if you are the enslaver, what happens when they find something wrong with you, and throw you into the fire next?

Ephraim devours Manasseh and Manasseh devours Ephraim.

Bye.