I'm Distressed & Need Answers!!

[Larissa238]

God must be desperate, using folks like SOI who pronounce these confusing, weak-ass arguments to convey his garbled message.  Pitifully lame.

He also sent people like NTS, AlexBP, and University Pastor. Think what that means.

The reason that they give such bad answers is because they are not prepared, as the Bible tells them not to. That is, if they consider us "authorities"- Luke 12:11-12 "When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say." That, or the Holy Spirit is one drugged-out spirit, since the Christians here say things completely opposite of each other.

[Alzael]

God must be desperate, using folks like SOI who pronounce these confusing, weak-ass arguments to convey his garbled message.  Pitifully lame.

He also sent people like NTS, AlexBP, and University Pastor. Think what that means.

The reason that they give such bad answers is because they are not prepared, as the Bible tells them not to. That is, if they consider us "authorities"- Luke 12:11-12 "When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say." That, or the Holy Spirit is one drugged-out spirit, since the Christians here say things completely opposite of each other.

As I recently explained to MiC in the other thread. The biblical god is a complete idiot. Hence, the theists we get.

[Astreja]

I guess that maybe why your eyes are not opened is because at the tender age of 6-7 yrs. The Creator knew the future, like you typing that post, and chose not to open your eyes?

If that were so, SOI, then the "free will" defence to the Problem of Evil is pure bollocks.  How can someone be free to determine their own destiny if an omnipotent, omniscient being is dealing with them based on things they have yet to choose?

I think what's going on inside, hmmm, you do not believe this to be true?

Precisely.  I see the Bible as fiction with a smattering of historical and pseudo-historical decoration.  I have never seen the god of the Bible as real, and always thought the story of Jesus coming back from the dead was a bit on the silly side.

I'd really like a Talking Snake™ of My very own, though. 

[Hatter23]

Instead of placing it all at God's feet, take some responsibility for your own actions

Actually we do. That is what being an Atheist is about. We have no all knowing, all powerful being that created us, knowing full well what our genes and environment would lead us to.

Take the case of "Billy the Kidd." He lived a quiet life of an upstanding citizen...until circumstances forced him to kill a man to protect his family farm. Unfortunately, he apparent got off on the way it made him feel, and became the imfamous man we know today.

If you believe in an all knowing all powerful God, he could have had rain more that year, preventing the tension that led to the first killing, and Billy would have never harmed anyone.

However that didn't happen.

So, if you accept God as you do...he could have foreseen this event. He is  just as responsible for the incident as a parent that hands a 7 year old a bottle of Jack and the cay keys.

If you don't, as we do, then Billy was responsible for his own choices after the first killing. It is that simple.

[Hatter23]

And of course, people want to debunk the "miracle". Why not debunk the miracles of Christianity, too, as well as the other religions?

My point I've been trying to have him answer directly for several posts. He used the usual dodge of "dark powers" and...laugably...the exact opposite of "working out for the best," plus ignoring the whole question would an omnipotent deity for allowing his opponents ANY SUPERNATURAL POWERS OVER HUMAN AFFAIRS even if we were to allow for the dubious "free will" defence for human actions.

[SOI]

The correct term here is, self condemnation.

Bullshit.

Funny how you never addressed the parts about god's ability to do something about the child ultimate fate.  Was god able to do something about it?  Was god unwilling to do something about it?  Either way, your god is a total douchebag.

No God was not able to do anything about it.

I believe in free will, and so do you.

[Dante]

No God was not able to do anything about it.

Not exactly omnipotent then, huh?

And don't try to bring the free will argument into it, as that notion is easily debunked. With all the many people in the bible who witnessed miracles, or saw god, as well as all the current xtians who believe god talks to them, or statues bleed, it seems that your god has no problem showing himself to any fervent believer. Your freewill argument fails.

[Ambassador Pony]

No God was not able to do anything about it.

What else can your god not do?

[screwtape]

Your freewill argument fails.

To be fair, SOI has not made a free will argument yet.  He just said "free will" and that was about all.  The argument you are probably talking about is the one we have seen fail here repeatedly.  Probability is on your side.  But since SOI has not elaborated, we cannot be sure that is the one he is talking about.  He may surprise us.  Sure, it's a long shot.  But I would rather not be presumptuous.

That is the problem I am having with SOI.  You have to drag every last bit of information out of him.  He says "x" and people jump on it, but then he says "I don't mean x that way". 

SOI, why are you here?  People come here to talk, but you don't seem interested in talking.  You give terse answers and speak cryptically.  Why are you making us work so hard to understand you? 

[gonegolfing]

Screw, we'll take anything we can get out of this cat since it's slim pickings 

The correct term here is, self condemnation.

Bullshit.

Funny how you never addressed the parts about god's ability to do something about the child ultimate fate.  Was god able to do something about it?  Was god unwilling to do something about it?  Either way, your god is a total douchebag.

No God was not able to do anything about it.

I believe in free will, and so do you.

There you have it Ladies & Gentlemen !! SOI's admission and conclusion that god itself has no freewill, and is in fact not omnipotent.

If your supposed perfect god cannot act at its own discretion, then the hypothesis weakens to a point of no return. If a god is limited by its own decisions, as you are clearly indicating, then is this god any different than you SOI ? Of course not. You've just refuted your own argument and in fact have proved that the god idea is a human construct.

Only the human mind can have a mental lapse and conceive of the faulty thought that a god is both all powerful and yet at the same time limited in its actions.

SOI do you see the contradiction on top of this ?  You're claiming that a non-omnimpotent being with no free will has the power to create something with free will.  Sorry, that's an irrational baseless claim and is not allowed.

If you were created in god's image, then your belief in free will flies in the face of what you claim about god. Therefore if that image of god has no free will, as you claim, then you have no free will. I don't think a god would be too happy about you saying you've got something that it doesn't have

You have got to do better mate.

[Alzael]

You have got to do better mate.

This is probably the impetus behind his behaviour. He knows that he can't actually make his case, so he relies on saying nothing and sounding nuts.

[LadyLucy]

And of course, people want to debunk the "miracle". Why not debunk the miracles of Christianity, too, as well as the other religions?

My point I've been trying to have him answer directly for several posts. He used the usual dodge of "dark powers" and...laugably...the exact opposite of "working out for the best," plus ignoring the whole question would an omnipotent deity for allowing his opponents ANY SUPERNATURAL POWERS OVER HUMAN AFFAIRS even if we were to allow for the dubious "free will" defence for human actions.

I wish he would answer the question, too, but I doubt he will because he realizes that it would be "doubting God", although it was a SIMPLE question that requires a direct answer from HIS point of view. How boring it is to have him no answer. -Snore-

Hey SOI, could you please answer the following question:

If miracles happen for people of other religions, how are they less of miracles than the ones of the religion of Christianity, and if a Christian wants to debunk the miracle of that other religion, why not go ahead and debunk their own?

[Dante]

Your freewill argument fails.

To be fair, SOI has not made a free will argument yet.  He just said "free will" and that was about all.  The argument you are probably talking about is the one we have seen fail here repeatedly.  Probability is on your side.  But since SOI has not elaborated, we cannot be sure that is the one he is talking about.  He may surprise us.  Sure, it's a long shot.  But I would rather not be presumptuous.

It's St. Patty's Day, and my middle name is Presumptuous. Shamus Presumptuous O'Atheist III.

I figured I would just nip it in the bud, so we don't have to waste 2 pages on why the argument fails, because I prophecize that plenty more cyberspace will be wasted in this thread already.

[Hatter23]

You have got to do better mate.

This is probably the impetus behind his behaviour. He knows that he can't actually make his case, so he relies on saying nothing and sounding nuts.

Perhaps that is being a bit uncharitable. I think it is a matter of, probably unconciously, using the same linguistic slight of hand that has been used on him, particularly in the King James Bible: Cryptic Portentious statements in archaic language order to sound wise. However apparenly not realizing he has an audience that knows an illusion when they see it.

I mean seriously look at some of the statements:

The woman encompasses the man.

God is evident in all things. His invisible attributes are, everywhere. His power has been clearly seen. Being understood through all that has been made. But your heart has become darkened.

I could go on about supernaturals in my life, such has clouds,the sun, and moon.

I Believed before I saw, and my Father rewarded me with the early rains.

I believe thay have the power over me in my life if I allow them when I let Satan take s stronghold.

Ok here it is, you don't want to validate the Bible (for some valid reasons), but yet it speaks of you.

It speaks of future times from ancient days, and I know you find this ridiculous.

Freedom.

What is freedom? All the materialistic things in our lives, we are slaves to them.

This great chasm between us, can you not see it? I do not mean to speak at, or preach to all of you. In fact, if you knew me personally, we would cherish each other and you would see my walk.

SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM

For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

I speak to all who hear this way, grocery store or not.

The Kingdom of God has come near you and you have rejected it! Jerusalem, you who stone her prophets!

Humans who desire, peace, will never again learn war, people will not rise up against each other anymore, the weak will be strong, and He will remove there yoke from them.

[Alzael]

You have got to do better mate.

This is probably the impetus behind his behaviour. He knows that he can't actually make his case, so he relies on saying nothing and sounding nuts.

Perhaps that is being a bit uncharitable. I think it is a matter of, probably unconciously, using the same linguistic slight of hand that has been used on him, particularly in the King James Bible: Cryptic Portentious statements in archaic language order to sound wise. However apparenly not realizing he has an audience that knows an illusion when they see it.

I would agree with this, if it weren't for his constant refusal to respond to things. And the way that he makes his claims such as saying something and then later claiming to have meant something different once called on it. His posts seem to indicate an intentional degree of dishonesty.

[Hatter23]

You have got to do better mate.

This is probably the impetus behind his behaviour. He knows that he can't actually make his case, so he relies on saying nothing and sounding nuts.

Perhaps that is being a bit uncharitable. I think it is a matter of, probably unconciously, using the same linguistic slight of hand that has been used on him, particularly in the King James Bible: Cryptic Portentious statements in archaic language order to sound wise. However apparenly not realizing he has an audience that knows an illusion when they see it.

I would agree with this, if it weren't for his constant refusal to respond to things. And the way that he makes his claims such as saying something and then later claiming to have meant something different once called on it. His posts seem to indicate an intentional degree of dishonesty.

You see dishonesty, where I see a lack of intellect. Either of us could by right. There's a saying for this situation known as Grey's Law:

Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistingushable from malice.

[Alzael]

You see dishonesty, where I see a lack of intellect. Either of us could by right. There's a saying for this situation known as Grey's Law:

Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistingushable from malice.

No, I see both. When I suggested that as a motivation for him. I was speaking of him acting in such a way unconsciously. I don't think he's smart enough to do this deliberately. Merely that this is what seems to be going on in his psyche.I think the language he was exposed to has imprinted itself on him and influenced the exact nature of his dishonesty, hence why he uses so many of the words.

[screwtape]

Grey's Law:

Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistingushable from malice.

brilliant.  Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

[gonegolfing]

Hatter23:

However apparenly not realizing he has an audience that knows an illusion when they see it.

This is what's laughable about most of the theists who come to WWGHA. They come thinking that perhaps we're missing something, or haven't heard all the fine details that we need to hear. The trouble is though, that when they begin to explain these fine details, as they know them, they also begin to drown in these theological drivellings realizing that they can't swim like they thought they could in the turbulent waters of hard core debating.

If SOI wants to come here and do cerebral white water, then he better have his intellectual shit together if he's going to survive 

[wright]

^^^
This has been my observation too. They don't have much if any experience with debating on a forum where they're in the minority, and find it a very strange and stressful environment. Too stressful for most to stick around.

I also think most of them haven't really thought their beliefs through, which is an inherent advantage for those atheists (like myself) who are former believers. Most of us didn't want to lose our faith; many of us prayed and sought help to try and stop doing so.

We prayed, rationalized and apologized to and for the god/s we believed in, and here we are. And when theists show up, confidently proclaiming those same rationalizations as self-evident truths... I can understand why some of us have little civility to spare.

SOI, I try to give newcomers like you the benefit of doubt. You aren't used to this kind of debate. You have some strange ideas about atheism, having had little experience with the concept before. I don't expect you to abandon your faith just from what you learn here, but hopefully you will gain a useful perspective.

[Aaron123]

No God was not able to do anything about it.

I believe in free will, and so do you.

I'm suprised you've just flat-out stated your god is not omnipotent.   

Without any context, it's hard to tell what you meant with that free will crack.  Couldn't god have appeared before Astreja and stated "Here I am!" like he did with Moses and a dozen other characters in the bible?

[velkyn]

No God was not able to do anything about it.
I believe in free will, and so do you.

I accept that there is a limited free will.  No matter how much I want to, I will not be able to fly to the moon on my own. 

When Christians claim free will, it's a sign that they've never actually paid attention to their bible or that they simply ignore the parts that show that their god does not allow free will.  We have the pharoah, who God forced to reject God's own miracles so God could show off, and in the process murdered the "first-born" who had no choice in the matter.  Then we have ever time God supposedly interfered with human events.  How can puny humans resist an omnipotent being?  how do miracles work with free will, SOI?  If I claim there was a miracle that God stopped someone from harming me, the free will of those who would harm me ceases to exist. 

Well, with your claims, maybe he's not so omnipotent at all.  He does have trouble with snakes, iron chariots and actually beating his archnemesis to the point he has to repeatedly acquiese to him.  Then we have Romans 9 which has that your god intentionally creates people to damn and various places throughout the gospels where your "messiah" says that some people are intentionally kept from understanding his words. Finally, we have the Bible and Christians constantly saying "everything is God's will".  If so, then we have no free will, if God controlls everthing we will and can do, if universe is set in stone. 

Again and again, we see that there is no free will in the bible.  It is all about fear and obediance and outright control by God. 

[LadyLucy]

SOI, I thank you for enlightening me. I turned to Islam because I realized stupid Christians are mind-less and are NOT strong enough in their religion. Islam is the true way: EVERYONE is strong in their faith, never scared to answer questions from my experience with Muslims on this forum, unlike you, who keeps avoiding and stonewalling everywhere you go, being too cryptic to give answers. Allah has all the answers. Perhaps you should turn to him instead, rather than your false god and false book. Read the Koran. Be enlightened in his name.

Shalom. Be saved. Being a Christian does not help you. You lack faith. You are not strong enough.

[Hatter23]

Hatter23:

However apparenly not realizing he has an audience that knows an illusion when they see it.

This is what's laughable about most of the theists who come to WWGHA. They come thinking that perhaps we're missing something, or haven't heard all the fine details that we need to hear. The trouble is though, that when they begin to explain these fine details, as they know them, they also begin to drown in these theological drivellings realizing that they can't swim like they thought they could in the turbulent waters of hard core debating.

If SOI wants to come here and do cerebral white water, then he better have his intellectual shit together if he's going to survive 

Because, in my not so humble opinion, there is no actual hard substance to the theist argument. I have repeatedly, and at length  overheard the hard core theist talk in my office. I have a baptist bishop in the cubicle next to me and she sends a great deal of her time talking with members of her faith. They sing song back an forth empty feel good statement, each trying to, ever so slightly, out do each other in their praises of God and Jesus.

"God wants X" or "God hates Y" or "Praise God for Z" without any apparent need for justification. No argument, no cogent disagreement. If someone counters any of these statements it is met with "You are just bad" said in a jocular fashion. Not only do they have nothing HARD to hang their hat on...the actual environment of church culture seems to discorage debate in any meaningful sense.

[Alzael]

Agreed. It's interesting to note that SOI has yet to return to this particular thread and answer to anything.

[gonegolfing]

Because, in my not so humble opinion, there is no actual hard substance to the theist argument. I have repeatedly, and at length  overheard the hard core theist talk in my office. I have a baptist bishop in the cubicle next to me and she sends a great deal of her time talking with members of her faith. They sing song back an forth empty feel good statement, each trying to, ever so slightly, out do each other in their praises of God and Jesus.

"God wants X" or "God hates Y" or "Praise God for Z" without any apparent need for justification. No argument, no cogent disagreement. If someone counters any of these statements it is met with "You are just bad" said in a jocular fashion. Not only do they have nothing HARD to hang their hat on...the actual environment of church culture seems to discorage debate in any meaningful sense.

Well said and so true.

I can remember at work when another theist and myself would sit around discussing the things of god  with all this false humility and patting each other on the backs, but on occasion an older Irish fella would make his way over to us to join in. We dreaded seeing him coming because it meant we had to actually think about what we believed, and defend it to someone who we knew to be intellectually superior to us and would often times embarrass us with his Irish wit and power to think clearly.

He'd leave and all we could say was "The poor man". When in fact we were the pathetic ones and just too arrogant and stupid to realize and admit it 

[William]

They sing song back an forth empty feel good statement, each trying to, ever so slightly, out do each other in their praises of God and Jesus.

Yes, well said, it's a glory-pissing contest.  +1

So many theists need to be seen and heard to be obviously faithful - it's all about outward display - behaving the motions and spurting the mumbo-jumbo.  It's a cover up for the doubts and emptiness inside.  They never realize that all those "faithful" around them are engaging in the same fake behaviour. They think everyone else is for real.  And if only they can mix it with the best of them - somehow they'll also be part of it and be saved.  That God will be too busy to look beyond their skin deep obsequious expressions of faith to the fearful child-mind inside.

[jtk73]

God is evident in all things. His invisible attributes are, everywhere. His power has been clearly seen. Being understood through all that has been made. But your heart has become darkened.

My bold - If his attributes are invisible...how can they be seen???? I call this xtian double-speak. Making confusing, contradicting claims without actually saying anything at all.

[Ivellios]

And of course, people want to debunk the "miracle". Why not debunk the miracles of Christianity, too, as well as the other religions?

My point I've been trying to have him answer directly for several posts. He used the usual dodge of "dark powers" and...laugably...the exact opposite of "working out for the best," plus ignoring the whole question would an omnipotent deity for allowing his opponents ANY SUPERNATURAL POWERS OVER HUMAN AFFAIRS even if we were to allow for the dubious "free will" defence for human actions.

I wish he would answer the question, too, but I doubt he will because he realizes that it would be "doubting God", although it was a SIMPLE question that requires a direct answer from HIS point of view. How boring it is to have him no answer. -Snore-

Hey SOI, could you please answer the following question:

If miracles happen for people of other religions, how are they less of miracles than the ones of the religion of Christianity, and if a Christian wants to debunk the miracle of that other religion, why not go ahead and debunk their own?

This is what... the 4th time you asked him this and he keeps ignoring you? You would think an all knowing god would definately help someone trying to help him find his lost sheep. god likes shooting himself in his own foot aparrently.

edit: clearly my typing is getting worse but my desire to write clearly makes me hit the 'modify' button.