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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #87 on: February 22, 2011, 06:41:18 PM »
Snopes is pretty reliable. In this particular case there is no way to conclude if Bush actually said that. I think it sounds plausible, but I don't reference it because it isn't reliable.
I think I can agree with that.  It all comes down to whether we place more trust in the word of Sherman alone, or in everyone else at that press conference together.  If we want examples of politicians denying rights to people on religious gorunds, how about Democrat Martha Coakley, who when asked whether Catholic doctors and nurses who don't want to perform abortions should be allowed to choose not to perform abortions responded: "You can have religious freedom but you probably shouldn’t work in the emergency room."  Unlike the Bush quote, this is one is certainly real and there's a video:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/watercooler/2010/jan/14/martha-coakley-devout-catholics-probably-shouldnt-/

Quote
AlexBP, if you think that all this anti-atheist stuff is just a myth we have created, I challenge you to put that hypothesis to the ultimate test: You pretend to be an atheist for two weeks.
Okay, I take your challenge.  As a matter of fact, I've already taken your challenge for a lot longer than two weeks.  As I mentioned in this thread and others I was raised by atheist parents and was an atheist until age 23.  In all that time I was (a) not arrested (b) not beaten (c) did not lose my job (d) was not kicked out of boy scouts (e) not expelled from my family.
so athiests Can teach right from wrong is that what your saying?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #88 on: February 22, 2011, 06:51:50 PM »
This fellow ain't worth it. If the only thing he can acknowledge is his "me me me" attitude, I'm sort of thinking that's all he has to offer. And he's already proven to be content free.

Not worth it at all.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Asmoday

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #89 on: February 22, 2011, 07:21:26 PM »
If we want examples of politicians denying rights to people on religious gorunds, how about Democrat Martha Coakley, who when asked whether Catholic doctors and nurses who don't want to perform abortions should be allowed to choose not to perform abortions responded: "You can have religious freedom but you probably shouldn’t work in the emergency room."  Unlike the Bush quote, this is one is certainly real and there's a video:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/watercooler/2010/jan/14/martha-coakley-devout-catholics-probably-shouldnt-/
AlexBP, why are you lying again? And even so obviously to lie and then to provide a link that directly shows you are lying.

Hm...I think I'll just quote something you said earlier in this thread: "Oops"


Coakley was not denying people's rights on religious grounds. She didn't deny people anything at all. Her answer was common sense (something a lot of religious folks have problems with, I know).
People can believe in whatever they want. And if their belief says "Don't do XYZ!" then so be it. But if their belief forbids XYZ and in an Emergency Room XYZ has to be performed to save lives, then they should stay the f**k out of there and work somewhere else. (You can't tell me any nurse does't know prior to starting work in an ER that sometimes abortions are necessary to save the life of a pregnant woman.)

As velkyn already said: Your rights end where mine begin. A Jehova's witness has the right to believe whatever he wants. That includes his right to believe blood transfusions are the epitome of evil. But if a JW decides to work in an ER and starts denying people medical help in the form of blood transfusions his right of religious freedom ends then and there in the second his belief cuts into the rights of the people coming to the ER seeking help.

To say "You can have religious freedom, but if you are a Jew you probably should not work as a bacon taste tester" is not "denying rights to people on religious grounds" either. It's simply common sense!
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 07:45:59 PM by Asmoday »
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Offline Agamemnon

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #90 on: February 22, 2011, 11:26:46 PM »
In the interests of fairness, I have to point out that I fall into that category. Of course I probably don't count since I'm not American.

The video is directed primarily at an American audience, so I would say not. Although, there are some places in the US where atheists are not as actively discriminated against. I've lived most of my life in the bible belt, so I've seen my share.

The fact of the matter is, people will use any reason to discriminate and abuse other people, and religion is one of the most common reasons there is. So to completely reject anti-atheist bigotry is ridiculous.

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistbigotryprejudice/a/AtheitsHated.htm

"Research Finds that Atheists are Most Despised, Most Distrusted Minority"

Quote
Every single study that has ever looked at the issue has revealed massive amounts of bigotry and prejudice against atheists in America. The most recent data shows that atheists are more distrusted and despised than any other minority and that an atheist is the least likely person that Americans would vote for in a presidential election. It's not just that atheists are hated, though, but also that atheists seem to represent everything about modernity which Americans dislike or fear.

The most recent study was conducted by the University of Minnesota, which found that atheists ranked lower than "Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in 'sharing their vision of American society.' Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry..."
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Offline jetson

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #91 on: February 23, 2011, 12:17:02 AM »
This is in response to the video "Why Does Every Intelligent Christian Disobey Jesus".  I already shredded the main body of the video in an earlier thread but I thought I'd come back and shred the ending, which is even more loony.  Towards the end it starts telling me why I choose to remain a Christian, which I find somewhat odd since I don't believe in mind reading.  The maker of these videos seems to be big on scientific testing.  I wonder whether he's willing to subject his mind reading skills to such a test?  (But that's not the topic of this thread.  The topic is a series of five lies that he tells.)

The video then goes on to say that "Let's talk about what Christians might do to you: You might lose your job.  You might get arrested.  You might get beaten.  Your kids might get kicked out of Boy Scouts.  You would be shunned by friends and family."  Well that's a list of consequences.  Let's have a look at whether any of them are true.

1. "You might lose your job."  Nope, my job has no relation to my religion.

2. "You might get arrested."  Nope, I live in a country (the United States) where everyone may practice the religion of their choice.  In fact there's no country in the world where you can get arrested for switching from Christianity to atheism, while their are a number of countries run by atheists where you'll get arrested if you switch from atheism to Christianity.  Cuba and China are two examples.

3. "You might get beaten."  Nope.  Just as with the previous one, there's no place where leaving Christianity will get anyone beaten, but plentiful places where leaving atheism will get you beaten.

4. "Your kids might get kicked out of the Boy Scouts."  First I don't have kids.  Second, if I did, they probably wouldn't be in Boy Scouts.  Third, if I had kids in Boy Scouts, my religious decisions would not get them kicked out.

5. "You would be shunned by friends and family."  My family is mostly atheists.  It's funny that the video maker would think that atheists would be so small-minded as to stop liking a person merely because they changed their religious viewpoint.  Certainly none of my Christian friends would do such a thing.

In my previous thread, nobody was able to defend what the video said, so the responses mostly attacked me or changed the subject.  But I'm here to discuss this particular portion of this particular video, so please post if you have any defense of the video to make.  If no one can defend it, I guess I'll assume that the video maker resorted to these absurd lies because he knows that the truth always works against atheism and for Christianity.

I added some bolding to the OP.  Now, I'm too lazy to go watch the video, so I would like to know if the transcription is accurate.  Did the author of the video use the word "might" in those cases above?  If so, then once again, WTF are we even discussing? 

If the word "might" is in the video, then it stands that you do not understand what that word actually means.  Or do you have some other explanation for why you choose to ignore it.  Isn't it beyond obvious that being an atheist does not guarantee that those things will happen to you?  As I said when I first replied, weak, very weak.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #92 on: February 23, 2011, 01:12:36 AM »
I added some bolding to the OP.  Now, I'm too lazy to go watch the video, so I would like to know if the transcription is accurate.  Did the author of the video use the word "might" in those cases above?  If so, then once again, WTF are we even discussing? 

If the word "might" is in the video, then it stands that you do not understand what that word actually means.  Or do you have some other explanation for why you choose to ignore it.  Isn't it beyond obvious that being an atheist does not guarantee that those things will happen to you?  As I said when I first replied, weak, very weak.

Yes, the video does use the word "might" in it, so that part is accurate.

What isn't accurate is his assertion. What isn't accurate is this part:

Towards the end it starts telling me why I choose to remain a Christian, which I find somewhat odd since I don't believe in mind reading.

The video does not tell him why he chooses to remain a Christian. What the video says is (7:43)

So here is something to consider. Could it be that you claim to be Christian because you're afraid of other Christians? Many "Christians" are very scary people. They don't love one another, many Christians are filled with Hatred, Racism, Homophobia, and Violence. For example, our prisons are overflowing with Christians with Christians.

Perhaps you're afraid of what Christians might do to you.

-You might lose your job.
-You might get arrested.
-You might be beaten.
-Your kids could get kicked out of Boy Scouts.


The video is clearly posing the scenario of being afraid as one possibility and asking you to consider whether it applies to you. It is not "mind reading". This is a strawman created by a mediocre Christian who can't support an argument honestly.

Other things I would like to point out while I'm here.

I already shredded the main body of the video in an earlier thread but I thought I'd come back and shred the ending, which is even more loony.

At which point exactly Alex, did you shred the argument? Because all I can see is you putting up fallacies, lying, and dodging questions and then repeatedly getting smacked around with the logic hammer like a red-headed step-child. Then you taking off mid-conversation and not coming back for five months, suddenly claiming victory. Please, I'm truly curious, where was this awesome argument you made? Or is this yet another lie (I've counted four so far if you include this one, and I was only half-paying attention to what you had to say).

Furthermore,I would also like to point out:

But I'm here to discuss this particular portion of this particular video, so please post if you have any defense of the video to make.  If no one can defend it, I guess I'll assume that the video maker resorted to these absurd lies because he knows that the truth always works against atheism and for Christianity.

What is there here to defend? Your argument has no content to it. Your argument is "I don't fit into this category that doesn't even actually apply to me (since we've established that you've never really tried to be a non-Christian, or at least not openly). Therefore it's a lie."

Examples:


1. "You might lose your job."  Nope, my job has no relation to my religion.


You don't actually know that this wouldn't happen. You're just saying it. For all you know, if you went up to your boss and told him that you were going to become an athiest or convert to Judaism you would be fired. So this is not an argument against the point. To even begin to use this you would first need to demonstrate proof that there's no chance that it could happen to you (which it seems you can't) and then have to show  that the point being made applies specifically to you and not to Christians in general. Then you might have an argument that is somewhat valid.

Again:

2. "You might get arrested."  Nope, I live in a country (the United States) where everyone may practice the religion of their choice.

While you can show that this is highly unlikely to occur in the US, the point was not aimed only at Americans. There are countries where you can be arrested for not being a Christian, which I'm sure has already been shown by others, you do not support this position that you take. Furthermore, the video does not necessarily speak about converting from Christian to atheist. Merely from leaving Christianity. So the point is equally applicable if you of another religion being persecuted and arrested by questions (such as the Jews). Again however, this is not addressing you directly unless you can show otherwise. So the fact that it does not apply to you does not invalidate the point.

So there is no real defence to your argument because it isn't an argument. It's an empty set of statements that involved no thought to dream up. I'm still waiting for one of your "shredding" arguments, but quite frankly I'm not holding out much hope to hear it.
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Offline pingnak

Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #93 on: February 23, 2011, 04:41:15 AM »
While there are no laws on the books to arrest someone based on their religion (although many short-sighted Christians still seem to want to make an exception for Islam), there is nothing to prevent police officers from abusing their authority, bearing false witness, etc.  You know, to uphold Christian values.  Bigotry is a distressingly common thread in alleged cases of police misconduct.  And I say 'alleged', since those kinds of cases tend to 'disappear' after a short bit of paid leave (i.e. free vacation time).

But it's not all bad news.  What's telling in this fine example of positive developments in combatting bigotry in all its forms, is that it needed to happen at all.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/george-washington-institute-for-religious-freedom--facing-history-symposium-in-washington-dc-116678294.html

Secular folk are not at all innocent of a little bigotry ourselves.  We (for the most part) tend not to remain blissfully ignorant of this fact.  A little introspection goes a long way for any follower of ANY creed, even if that 'creed' is not to have a creed.

Unfortunately, certain people seem to believe that introspection is a 'sin'.  One must follow, follow, follow, and never once second guess their leaders' adherence to their religious ideals, teachings, or their motives, or even their own motives for being such a mute and conformist member of a herd of mindless sheep.

Perhaps that sounded a bit bigoted?

I'll walk further out on the 'politically correct' tight rope now, and use racial examples.

I normally don't care what race/color/whatever you are.  If you came from China or Mexico or France, and speak even a little English, it's a lot more than the Spanish or Chinese or French, or whatever else that I know.  I'm duly impressed.  If you were raised in America and acted more or less 'American', you're just like anyone else.  If I were to move to and live in China or Mexico or France, I would be expected to speak the local language there.  How would I be perceived if I moved there and acted out the whole 'ugly American' way, and demanded everyone address me in English, and understand English to suit me?

If you behave like a retarded racial stereotype, I will similarly be put off, perhaps even offended.  Speak exclusively in your native tongue among your family?  Fine.  I know a lot of folks who could have learned a second, or even third language when they were young, from their parents and/or grandparents, and regretted the lost opportunity to do so.  To speak AROUND me as if your language is a secret code?  That's rude.  Dress as a thug/gang member, and act like a thug, and I am genuinely less kindly disposed toward you.  Is that racist?  Be black, or white, or Hispanic, or whatever, and dress and behave like a gangsta retard on MTV, and it's much the same thing.  You're waving your cultural (or sub-cultural) dick in my face, just as if I had moved to France or China, or Mexico and played the 'ugly American' there.

So when a religious person goes out of their way to BEHAVE like a stereotypical holy roller/fundy/wowser, and gets in my face, it tends to raise my hackles a bit.  You can hail mary and 'Jesus wuvs you' and 'let's pray', and whatever else all you like in a POLITE and NON-COERCIVE way, and I am never offended, or eager to make offense in turn.  But when you're impolitely waving your religious dick in my face, or worse, trying to make our secular, liberal, democratic republic do that for you, I am less inclined to be kindly disposed towards you, and I'm probably going to give you some version of the 'ugly atheist' act, in kind.

In general, I'm expected by religious people to swallow a WHOLE RELIGION from scratch, and the person who is petulantly demanding that I do so would never in their wildest dreams switch to even a slightly different denomination of exactly the same religion...  any more than a gang-banger would change his colors. 

I don't personally care if you keep or lose your religion.  Just keep it in your pants.  And if you go to an 'atheist' site and lay down the gauntlet, don't be surprised when someone picks it up.  Do I go to 'Rapture Ready' or any of the thousands of other religiously oriented sites and troll?  Nope.  But if you post here, you've volunteered to get a special and intimate examination of your religious beliefs that won't be comfortable, and might not all be 'polite'.  Do you walk into a biker bar and proclaim that Harley Davidson motorcycles are 'gay', and expect a unanimously friendly reception?

Offline AlexBP

Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #94 on: February 23, 2011, 11:55:59 AM »
In your OP you took the term "you" so literally that it meant the words in that video couldn't possibly apply to anyone else. And that was the biggest problem. The fact that you live in an open-minded lala land doesn't mean everybody does. And in fact many don't.
I have already addressed this point, so I don't see what you're hoping to accomplish by bringing it up again.  It does not matter whether the video-maker intends for "you" to apply to me personally or to Christians generally.  Either way, the video in junk.  It says, concerning Christians who leave Christianity, "you might be beaten" or "you  might be arrested".  Can you show me any evidence that for those who leave are arrested either all of the time or some known percentage of the time?  Can you show me any evidence that they are beaten either all of the time or some known percentage of the time?  These are simple yes-no questions and you folks should be able to give me a yes-no answer.  If the answer is "no" (or if you continue refusing to answer) then the video's claims are absurd.

Offline AlexBP

Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #95 on: February 23, 2011, 12:06:24 PM »
Apparently you've been told by someone that snopes is always right. Don't know if they are or not. Robert Sherman posted this on his site in 2006 in an effort to prove that it occurred.

http://www.robsherman.com/advocacy/060401a.htm

He says there are documents in the Bush presidential library that back up his story.
Sherman says so but he is wrong.  He says "This letter was a clear admission by the President, through his counsel, that he had indeed made the remarks and was not backing down from them."  However, the text of the letter in question says nothing of the kind, nor anything that can rationally be interpreted as meaning that.

Quote
Besides that, I don't see Snopes categorically stating that it is false.
Snopes wouldn't categorically state that it's false unless there's proof that it's false, such as a video.  Otherwise they do the best they can.  As they say, there are many suspicious things about Sherman's claim which point to it being false, the most important being that apparently no one at the press conference heard it other than Sherman, and Sherman himself won't acknowledge this fact, much less try to explain it.

Offline Agamemnon

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #96 on: February 23, 2011, 12:09:06 PM »
If the answer is "no" (or if you continue refusing to answer) then the video's claims are absurd.

False. The ability, or lack of ability, of someone here to supply evidence does not invalidate the video in any way.
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Offline Agamemnon

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #97 on: February 23, 2011, 12:13:53 PM »
If you want evidence of atheists being abused for being atheists, look in the forum mailbag. There is plenty of evidence.
So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence.  --Bertrand Russell

Offline AlexBP

Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #98 on: February 23, 2011, 12:22:20 PM »
Except that AlexBP's claim "I never said "atheist dictators killed all these people" or anything about that until others dragged the issue in" is a lie.  So let's just have a look at the older posts.

In my first reply to his OP I said at one point:
You should have tried that during the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina (a war that was all about religious beliefs).
(no further remark regarding this conflict was made)

In direct reply to this AlexBP wrote:
The war in Bosnia-Herzegovina was started by an atheist who proudly massacred tens of thousands of Christians and Muslims.  As you doubtlessly know, Josip Broz Tito, who took power in Yugoslavia after WWII was an atheist.  Like most atheist dictators, his reign was bloody, as he killed an estimated 250,000 people.  He had numerous Catholic clergy arrested or killed and he purged his government of Christians.  Tito died in 1980.  His successor, Slobodan Milosevic, largely continued his violent policies, but various regions of Yugoslavia had had enough and tried to break away from Serbia in 1991.  Milosevic, not happy about that, incited Serb groups to start the war.  His tactics throughout were famously brutal and he had a particular focus on cruelty to the Catholic clergy, as for instance when he ordered his troops to rape nuns before killing them.  Anyone doubting the facts can read about his trial for war crimes and genocide at the Hague.
So yes, the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina was about religious differences, specifically the differences between an atheist madman who ruled by mass murder and Christians who wanted freedom of religious practice.
Emphasis added.

I began the thread by pointing out that nowhere on earth are Christians arrested or beaten when they convert.

You then responded "You should have tried that during the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina (a war that was all about religious beliefs)".  Thus you were the first person to mention Bosnia-Herzegovina, and you made a completely untrue claim that the war was caused by religious beliefs.


I then responded by pointing out that the war was started by an atheist dictator, not by any religious person or group.  That was the only way that I could respond to your untrue claims.  I tell the truth and I'm not going to apologize for doing so.  If you're upset that I shot down your erroneous statement about the causes of the war, tough beans.  You can't blame me for mentioning Milosevic when you're the one who dragged in an utterly irrelevant and false claim about the war in Yugoslavia.
Quote
I'd like to add that he was reminded by ParkingPlaces and myself that he completely ignored that the forces of the "atheist madmen" were Christians themselves (just not his favored brand of Christianity) and that the things that happened were by no means the result of atheistic persecution of Christians since all the religious factions had their very own grudges to settle with each other.
Of course you conveniently neglect to mention that neither you nor ParkingPlaces have provided any citation to back up this claim.  Tito was not merely against Catholics but against all religious believers.  True he actually killed a huge number of Catholics for the crime of being Catholic, while with the Serbian Orthodox he merely purged them from the government, shut down many churches, and drove some clergy into exile.  (The Black Book of Communism covers this.)  Milosevic largely continued Tito's anti-religious policies, though perhaps with a little less vehemence.

Offline ZenZen

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #99 on: February 23, 2011, 02:22:50 PM »
I have already addressed this point, so I don't see what you're hoping to accomplish by bringing it up again.  It does not matter whether the video-maker intends for "you" to apply to me personally or to Christians generally.  Either way, the video in junk.  It says, concerning Christians who leave Christianity, "you might be beaten" or "you  might be arrested".  Can you show me any evidence that for those who leave are arrested either all of the time or some known percentage of the time?  Can you show me any evidence that they are beaten either all of the time or some known percentage of the time?  These are simple yes-no questions and you folks should be able to give me a yes-no answer.  If the answer is "no" (or if you continue refusing to answer) then the video's claims are absurd.

The answer is yes...


Here's a kid being abused by his own mother for being atheist...

Not much of a loving mother, huh?
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Offline LadyLucy

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #100 on: February 23, 2011, 02:29:08 PM »
Sorry to butt in, but I don't think he's going to look in the Mailbag from what I've gathered (lurked in this topic back and forth). So, I'm bringing the Mailbag to him. Here is only a bit of evidence of Atheists being discriminated against:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,17408.0.html <--- Contains some personal testimonials, read through
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,17046.0.html <--- Some guy thinking he's got the answers, claiming we are idiots
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,17045.0.html
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,17753.0.html
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,17829.0.html
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,13158.0.html <--- Some nuthead
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,13642.0.html <--- Another nuthead
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,13356.0.html <--- Claiming we know nothing (there are lots of those)
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,12703.0.html
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,12706.0.html
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,12615.0.html <--- Jesus Christ, my eyes
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,12830.0.html
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,12238.0.html
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,11824.0.html <--- Someone thinking he's smart and indirectly calling us idiots
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,12121.0.html <--- Some guy trying to insult (and failing)
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,11012.0.html <--- Eh. There's lots of these.

I would post ridiculous amounts of preaching, but I'm already going on a tangent in a few of these (not direct attacks).

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,11563.0.html <--- Some idiot
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,10858.0.html <--- Doesn't make sense
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,11935.0.html <--- "OH NO WE ARE ALL GOING TO HELL!"
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,10480.0.html <--- Some Theist
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,10584.0.html

I could go through these all day. OK, one more, because this one was awful.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,10019.0.html
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 02:38:05 PM by LadyAmorosaLuckyDulce »


Offline velkyn

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #101 on: February 23, 2011, 02:30:25 PM »
I wonder if Tito was upset about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involvement_of_Croatian_Catholic_clergy_with_the_Usta%C5%A1a_regime   I really don't see anywhere where Tito killed Catholics just for being Catholics.  Perhaps Alex can provide some evidence.  and I read this
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In 1966 an agreement with the Vatican, spawned by the death of Stepinac in 1960 and the decisions of the Second Vatican Council, was signed according new freedom to the Yugoslav Roman Catholic Church, particularly to teach the catechism and open seminaries. The agreement also eased tensions, which had prevented the naming of new bishops in Yugoslavia since 1945.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tito

I'd also add that we have more than enough evidence that non-Christians, not only atheists are targets by idiots in the US miltary and happily we have people who are willing to stand up to such nonsense: http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #102 on: February 23, 2011, 02:53:11 PM »
I have already addressed this point, so I don't see what you're hoping to accomplish by bringing it up again.  It does not matter whether the video-maker intends for "you" to apply to me personally or to Christians generally.

Yes,it matters. Your entire pseudo-argument is based on the assumption that the video is addressing you directly. Unless you can show that this is the case, your initial premise fails. This was already shown before, which I notice you conveniently ignored. It's good to see that you don't let honesty get in the way of trying to make your point. Whatever it's actually supposed to be.

  Either way, the video in junk. 

Makes an assumption that you have yet to prove.

Can you show me any evidence that for those who leave are arrested either all of the time or some known percentage of the time?  Can you show me any evidence that they are beaten either all of the time or some known percentage of the time?  These are simple yes-no questions and you folks should be able to give me a yes-no answer.

It's been shown repetedly in this thread. Your ignoring it doesn't make it go away. It just serves to make you look more and more like a liar. Not that we didn't have a lot of evidence of that. Which I notice you have failed to respond to either. Going by your logic, since you continue to refuse to respond, I'm going to assume that you're admitting to having lied when you were accused of it.
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Offline AlexBP

Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #103 on: February 23, 2011, 03:27:15 PM »
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Can you show me any evidence that for those who leave are arrested either all of the time or some known percentage of the time?  Can you show me any evidence that they are beaten either all of the time or some known percentage of the time?  These are simple yes-no questions and you folks should be able to give me a yes-no answer.

It's been shown repetedly in this thread.
Okay, finally we have a claim nailed down.  According to Alzael, "it has been shown repeatedly in this thread" that "those who leave [Christianity] are arrested either all of the time or some known percentage of the time" and "beaten all of the time or some known percentage of the time".  Good.  I'm glad that you're actually willing to address my questions rather than dodging them.  Thank you for that.  Now I have just one question.  I don't recall any time in this thread when anyone has posted evidence of these things, so please tell me who posted evidence that a significant percentage of Christians are being arrested and beaten for leaving Christianity and the number of the post in which he did so.  Thankl you in advance.

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Not that we didn't have a lot of evidence of that. Which I notice you have failed to respond to either. Going by your logic, since you continue to refuse to respond, I'm going to assume that you're admitting to having lied when you were accused of it.
Just one minor problem.  When you say that I've never responded to charges of lying, you're lying.  Blaziken accused me of lying in #45 and I responded in post #48.  Asmoday accused me of lying in #65.  I responded in #98.  There may be others that I haven't responded to yet, since necessarily given that there's a lot more of you folks than me, but in any case that's sufficient to show your claim to be false.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #104 on: February 23, 2011, 03:51:03 PM »
AlexBP, my father and his 2nd wife pretty much disowned me for being an atheist back when I was 12 years old.[1]  He softened up since then, but it was a direct and obvious case of anti-atheist bigotry on their part.

It does happen.
 1. Fortunately I lived with my mother at the time.
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Offline AlexBP

Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #105 on: February 23, 2011, 03:58:51 PM »
I have already addressed this point, so I don't see what you're hoping to accomplish by bringing it up again.  It does not matter whether the video-maker intends for "you" to apply to me personally or to Christians generally.  Either way, the video in junk.  It says, concerning Christians who leave Christianity, "you might be beaten" or "you  might be arrested".  Can you show me any evidence that for those who leave are arrested either all of the time or some known percentage of the time?  Can you show me any evidence that they are beaten either all of the time or some known percentage of the time?  These are simple yes-no questions and you folks should be able to give me a yes-no answer.

The answer is yes...
If the answer is yes, then why don't you provide me evidence of large numbers of Christians being beaten and arrested after leaving Christianity?  In your post you accidentally linked to a video in which nobody is beaten or arrested, obviously a mistake on your part, and in any case I've alread explained why I'm not impressed by anonymous internet testimony.  So, once again, I asked whether you had evidence of people being arrested and beaten in numbers for leaving Christianity and you said "the answer is yes", so now please provide the evidence that you were referring to.

Offline AlexBP

Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #106 on: February 23, 2011, 04:15:20 PM »
Yes, the video does use the word "might" in it, so that part is accurate.
What exact evidence to you use to support the claim that I "might be arrested" if I leave Christianity?  Please be as specific as possible.

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The video is clearly posing the scenario of being afraid as one possibility and asking you to consider whether it applies to you.
The scenario it offers is utterly preposterous, has no basis in reality, and is merely being served up as a very thin excuse for the video maker to declare that Christians are murderous, racist, etc...
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we've established that you've never really tried to be a non-Christian, or at least not openly
I don't recall any of us establishing any such thing.  How exactly would it even be possible to establish any such thing?  Have you followed me around from the moment of my birth and observed that I was never a non-Christian?  Do you have video tapes of my entire life?

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1.
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"You might lose your job."  Nope, my job has no relation to my religion.
You don't actually know that this wouldn't happen.
Actually I do know that this wouldn't happen since I know the qualification for my job and they make no mention of religion, and furthermore my workplace has employees practicing many religions and none.  So I was right when I said that my job has no relation to my religion, and you were wrong when you said otherwise.  It seems that your mind-reading skills are as lame as those of the video maker.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 04:25:05 PM by AlexBP »

Offline AlexBP

Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #107 on: February 23, 2011, 04:23:28 PM »
1. "2. "You might get arrested."  Nope, I live in a country (the United States) where everyone may practice the religion of their choice.

While you can show that this is highly unlikely to occur in the US, the point was not aimed only at Americans. There are countries where you can be arrested for not being a Christian,
There is no country on earth where you can be arrested for not being a Christian.  There are countries where you can be arrested for not being an atheist, and I've named two already.

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Furthermore, the video does not necessarily speak about converting from Christian to atheist.
If the video isn't saying anything about converting to atheism specifically then why do people such as Lady AmorosaLuckyDulce keep posting long whines about the "discrimination" that atheists suffer?  How is that relevant to the claims made in the video?

Offline LadyLucy

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #108 on: February 23, 2011, 04:30:37 PM »
-Sighs- You asked for evidence. I presented them to you. I even pointed out testimonials. Why are you being like this? Do you not see at all? It's not "whining". I'm not saying, "BAWW, HE HIT ME, SOMEONE CALL THE WAAMBULANCE." You asked for evidence of Atheists being discriminated against. And I bet you just glimpsed and said to yourself, "Hmm, just whining. I am the best person around with the best and most innocent religion around. No one arrests or discriminates Atheists because I haven't seen it happen."

Jesus. It's all about you, you, you. No one else matters to you. Very compassionate and understanding, Alex.  &) I bet if the Christians, or in fact, any other religion at all, were presenting evidence about discrimination from Atheists, then you would give all the care in the world. That's what you are showing me.


Offline velkyn

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #109 on: February 23, 2011, 04:54:26 PM »
Alex, as long as there is one instance, there *is* a known percentage.  And even the smallest percentage is too much for people to be doing just because someone lacks the belief in some deity.  I know that there have been posts here in response to the videos promising physical attacks from Christians on atheists.  Should we take those in to account?  Is anything but cowardice preventing such things? 

We know that Christians have persecuted atheists and have persecuted each other for daring to be of not the "right" sect.  Unitarians are the Christian sect that seems to be the focus of most other Christians (http://www.uua.org/publications/pamphlets/introductions/151249.shtml) , though anabaptists, protestants, and catholics are at the focus at various times.  They were arrested, harmed and killed.  This isn't a common thing in recent times, being that I suspect Christians don't like jail any more than the next person, but when they though they had the upper hand, they had no problem in persecuting each other and everyone else.  Do you think that they would stop at their own kind and not bother atheists?  I'm sure that those people had jobs that had nothing to do with religion directly but when found out to not be of the "approved" sect or belief, they were attacked anyway. 

This is what I think that Brain was intimating in the video, however, I do not know that.  I find that considering the history of Christains, "might be" is not too hard to believe and that it is only in countries where there is religious freedom, even to not have any religion that anyone is safe from people who want to force their religion on others and to kill those who do not agree with those people's particular beliefs. 

and I am curious, can you point me to the post that you listed two countries where is was illegal *not* to be an atheist? I'm thinking maybe in the crazier central asian republics but I'm not finding much on the internet on this claim.
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Offline AlexBP

Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #110 on: February 23, 2011, 08:26:03 PM »
-Sighs- You asked for evidence. I presented them to you. I even pointed out testimonials. Why are you being like this? Do you not see at all? It's not "whining". I'm not saying, "BAWW, HE HIT ME, SOMEONE CALL THE WAAMBULANCE." You asked for evidence of Atheists being discriminated against.
Actually what I asked for is evidence that people who leave Christianity are being arrested and beaten as a result, that being what the video in question claims.  What I'm getting it's lots of claims that atheists have to put up with nasty things on the internet.  Everybody has to put up with nasty things on the internet and if I felt it would prove anything, I'd link you to some virulent attacks by atheists against Christians, including demands for us to be killed, but that's beside the point.  The internet is a place where people say nasty things to vent, often without thinking.  Saying nasty things on the internet is not a crime and just as well, since if it were a crime, this forum and the associated site and videos would be among the first to go.  But what the video claims is that we Christians are arresting and beating people for leaving Christian (right now, not in past centuries) and I've been asking for evidence that backs up that specific claim, not evidence of nasty internet posts.  I don't think that I'm going to get any.

Offline LadyLucy

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #111 on: February 23, 2011, 09:31:00 PM »
Ok. You want evidence for IRL discrimination. Fair enough, since the Internet is open to trolling.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/undergod/2009/02/an_advocate_for_atheists_in_ar.html
Arizona doesn't allow Atheists to testify or be a witness in court.

http://www.theledger.com/article/20110222/NEWS/110229946/1004/news?Title=Atheist-Arrested-at-Polk-School-Board-Meeting
Arrested for speaking out against prayer in schools, since it's government property ("disorderly conduct and possession of a medical prescription without proof" were the charges)

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/02/18/2073112/atheists-questions-sheriffs-basketball.html
The same Atheist group from the previous article were speaking out against donating government equipment to a religious organization. It was the judge's intention to remove basketball hoops from jails and give them to a church. (It is unconstitutional) He didn't listen. This is a related article, so I posted it.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/25659
Military personnel declaring it is OK to discriminate Atheists.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=downey_24_4
Stories of people discriminated against for being Atheists. (Unfortunately, many go unreported in fear of further bashing, or because some of the media tends to have religious affiliations, therefore excluding stories if they are even reported)

http://www.beliefnet.com/News/2002/11/Atheist-Scout-Booted-From-Scouting.aspx
There are plenty of cases like these, unfortunately unreported many times. I have a friend who has to keep lying about his religious affiliation (he is an Atheist) just so he can stay in the Boy Scouts. He knows just how bad bigotry is in the Boy Scouts. You have to have this God in your life and you can't be a homosexual (seriously).

http://www.examiner.com/atheism-in-dallas/religion-the-workplace-an-atheist-s-battle-against-discrimination-pt-1
Discrimination in the workplace.

http://www.atheistrev.com/2008/02/complaining-about-god-in-school-can.html
Someone speaks out for their lack of belief and is unfortunately, severely punished for it. These types of things go unreported many times (which is why I showed you a link to the Mailbag that read "Christians did nothing to you", because it had personal IRL testimonials from people in this forum) due to fear or just going, "What's the point? They actually believe this is a 'Christian nation'. I can't report this. It's not worth it."

These are a few.


Offline Alzael

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #112 on: February 24, 2011, 11:02:38 AM »
I don't recall any time in this thread when anyone has posted evidence of these things, so please tell me who posted evidence that a significant percentage of Christians are being arrested and beaten for leaving Christianity and the number of the post in which he did so.

For starters there's the post ZenZen made above with the video. Otherwise go back and actually read what people have written. If you're too lazy to actually read them on your own, why expect me to do the work for you. As for "some known percentage of the time" if it happens even once then there's a known percentage so that part is essentially fairly stupid.

What exact evidence to you use to support the claim that I "might be arrested" if I leave Christianity?  Please be as specific as possible.

Irrelevant and a dodge. I wasn't making the argument. Jetson asked if the video used the word "might" in it and I was responding to him. This wasn't even addressed to you.

On a sidenote, evidence for this was provided before as well in previous posts. As I said, don't be so lazy and expect other people to do your work for you. And don't be so egocentric. It's been pointed out over and over again that this isn't addressing you specifically and so might not apply to you and your situation. Your ego is a little out of control.

The scenario it offers is utterly preposterous, has no basis in reality, and is merely being served up as a very thin excuse for the video maker to declare that Christians are murderous, racist, etc...

Except that you can't show this. People here have been showing many instances of Christians discriminating and harming non-Christians. So clearly the concern has some validity. You can say that it's preposterous all that you want, but you can't seem to show it. If it has no basis in reality then why are these events happening? Clearly reality doesn't agree with you.

  It seems that your mind-reading skills are as lame as those of the video maker.

There was no mind-reading done in the video. This was pointed out. You're simply making another attempt to misrepresent  what the video said to support the strawman that you've been setting up since the OP. The video simply asks the person watching it to consider the possibility that part of their faith might be motivated by these factors.


There is no country on earth where you can be arrested for not being a Christian.

Yeah, there's no country on earth. Unless you ignore every single country that does it.

http://www.examiner.com/atheism-in-philadelphia/palestinian-arrested-for-being-an-atheist

Also in any country that follows Sharia law it is illegal to be an atheist. So that's quite a few Islamic countries like Iran, Yemen, Pakistan, Syria, Libya, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. In fact unless you're a Muslin, Christian, or Zoroastrian in Iran you don't even have any legal status. Atheists or members of other religions have to register as one of those faiths to have any legal rights.

In Greece there are only three recognized churches, the Greek Orthodox, Judaism, and Islam. While they don't arrest people of other faiths, people who don't belong to those faiths have their rights limited. And it's actually illegal to proselytize your faith to the Orthodox members.

An example of Greek laws. "Greek Law No 1363/38, with amendment Law No. 1672/39 states: "Anyone engaging in proselytism shall be liable to imprisonment and a fine between 1,000 and 50,000 drachmas; he shall, moreover be subject to police supervision for a period of between six months and one year to be fixed by the court when convicting the offender.""

"The second law requires anybody that is not Orthodox to obtain church licenses from both the Ministry of Education and Religious Affairs and the local Orthodox bishops. However, the Ministry defines different religions under different laws. According to the law, only the Orthodox Church, Judaism and Islam are recognized as "legal persons of public law," and are therefore recognized. The "legal persons of private law" category includes all other religious groups, including Protestants, Jehovah's Witnesses and pagans. "

So in Greece we not only have Christians persecuting other faiths, but Christians persecuting other Christians as well.

In Indonesia it isn't technically illegal to be an atheist. But it is illegal to openly express any views that are atheistic.

From article Pascal 345 of the Indonesian criminal code "Anyone who in public agitates in any form with the intention of causing the denial of belief in any religion followed in Indonesia will be subject to a jail term of not more than four years or a fine of not more than 300 million rupiah."

And in case you're thinking that this isn't meant to be against atheists necessarily. This is what Ifdhal Kasim said about the new law back when it was still going through government to be passed. "What's more in the proposed criminal code those who become atheists or encourage others to lose faith in their religion are subject to penalties." Also Indonesia restricts births and marriages if you happen to not be a member of one of the government recognized religions.

http://www.indonesiamatters.com/673/atheism-crime/

It's amazing the information that you can find when you actually try to do research instead of making mindless claims, isn't it?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 11:05:27 AM by Alzael »
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Offline Agamemnon

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #113 on: February 24, 2011, 12:06:34 PM »
If my boss finds out I am an atheist and I am passed over for promotion for that reason then I have been subjected to discrimination for being an atheist. And there's a pretty good chance I would never even know it. If my boss sabotages my career, fires me, moves me to another department, etc., because of atheism then I am being discriminated against for atheism.

If my wife divorces me for being an atheist then I have been subjected to discrimination for being an atheist.

If I have a bumper sticker on my car that indicates I am an atheist and someone keys my car in a parking lot because of my atheism then I have been abused for my atheism.

If my best friend ends our friendship because I am an atheist... If my family shuns me because I am an atheist...

If anyone mistreats me because of atheism then that is discrimination for my atheism.

To try to pretend these things do not happen is beyond ridiculous. It is willful ignorance. People kill each other over religious differences all the time. What makes you think they won't discriminate against atheists? Your skepticism has no basis in reality.
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Offline ZenZen

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #114 on: February 24, 2011, 12:52:32 PM »
If the answer is yes, then why don't you provide me evidence of large numbers of Christians being beaten and arrested after leaving Christianity?  In your post you accidentally linked to a video in which nobody is beaten or arrested, obviously a mistake on your part, and in any case I've alread explained why I'm not impressed by anonymous internet testimony.  So, once again, I asked whether you had evidence of people being arrested and beaten in numbers for leaving Christianity and you said "the answer is yes", so now please provide the evidence that you were referring to.

You know - my video was to show you that even kids get mistreated when they "come out". It was no accident, I can assure you...
(And just so you know - there's no need to be condescending - you sound like Mr. O'reilly - and that's not a compliment.)

To add on Alzael's list: Vermont actually have a law against atheism:
"It is illegal to deny the existence of God"

And I don't know if there has been any massmurders against atheists for just being atheists,
However:
Man and wife murdered for being atheists.

And:

On October 18, 2004, Arthur Shelton, a self described Christian and Eagle Scout, murdered his friend and roommate, Larry Hooper, because Hooper didn't believe in God.

And just because you are not discriminated against doesn't mean it's not happening.
To follow your logic:
Bones can't brake, because I've never broken bones.
Car-accidents don't happen, because I've never been in one.
People don't murder, because I haven't been murdered.
Everyone likes pizza - because I do!
Etc...

It's "Tide goes in, tide goes out" / "Sun goes up, sun goes down" all over again...  :blank:
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Offline LadyLucy

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #115 on: February 24, 2011, 01:08:23 PM »
As a side-note:
I actually cried reading the murder of Larry Hooper, especially during and after the trial. What the fuck is wrong with these people? (I am referring to the Christians who were taunting the Atheists that came into the courtroom with their crosses and signs.)