Author Topic: Further response to a video  (Read 13428 times)

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Offline AlexBP

Further response to a video
« on: February 19, 2011, 06:22:30 AM »
This is in response to the video "Why Does Every Intelligent Christian Disobey Jesus".  I already shredded the main body of the video in an earlier thread but I thought I'd come back and shred the ending, which is even more loony.  Towards the end it starts telling me why I choose to remain a Christian, which I find somewhat odd since I don't believe in mind reading.  The maker of these videos seems to be big on scientific testing.  I wonder whether he's willing to subject his mind reading skills to such a test?  (But that's not the topic of this thread.  The topic is a series of five lies that he tells.)

The video then goes on to say that "Let's talk about what Christians might do to you: You might lose your job.  You might get arrested.  You might get beaten.  Your kids might get kicked out of Boy Scouts.  You would be shunned by friends and family."  Well that's a list of consequences.  Let's have a look at whether any of them are true.

1. "You might lose your job."  Nope, my job has no relation to my religion.

2. "You might get arrested."  Nope, I live in a country (the United States) where everyone may practice the religion of their choice.  In fact there's no country in the world where you can get arrested for switching from Christianity to atheism, while their are a number of countries run by atheists where you'll get arrested if you switch from atheism to Christianity.  Cuba and China are two examples.

3. "You might get beaten."  Nope.  Just as with the previous one, there's no place where leaving Christianity will get anyone beaten, but plentiful places where leaving atheism will get you beaten.

4. "Your kids might get kicked out of the Boy Scouts."  First I don't have kids.  Second, if I did, they probably wouldn't be in Boy Scouts.  Third, if I had kids in Boy Scouts, my religious decisions would not get them kicked out.

5. "You would be shunned by friends and family."  My family is mostly atheists.  It's funny that the video maker would think that atheists would be so small-minded as to stop liking a person merely because they changed their religious viewpoint.  Certainly none of my Christian friends would do such a thing.

In my previous thread, nobody was able to defend what the video said, so the responses mostly attacked me or changed the subject.  But I'm here to discuss this particular portion of this particular video, so please post if you have any defense of the video to make.  If no one can defend it, I guess I'll assume that the video maker resorted to these absurd lies because he knows that the truth always works against atheism and for Christianity.

Offline Vivisectus

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2011, 07:04:22 AM »
It may not apply to you directly, but there are people on this board who have had a fair view of the things described there happen to them. Not everywhere, and I am glad to see that where you are, atheists are apparently not discriminated against. But it does happen - a lot! Ask around here and you will get some pretty gruesome stories.

I have friends myself in the bible belt who make sure to go to church, because they own their own business is a small town and they have seen other businesses boycotted because of perceived irreligiousness, for instance.

Where is this awesome shredding BTW? I seem to have missed it.
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Offline jetson

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2011, 08:41:22 AM »
Weak.  Very weak.

Offline Asmoday

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2011, 10:20:17 AM »
Where is this awesome shredding BTW? I seem to have missed it.
Here, have a look: A response to the video "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus"?

Not a lot of shredding done on his part. A lot of shredding of his arguments done by forum members though. The one thing that prominently stood out was his constant claiming that the bible and all those nasty passages "obviously" had to be interpreted as metaphor but despite constant requests he failed at showing how to determine literal from metaphorical content of the bible, he failed at explaining why there are over 30000 Christian denominations all interpreting the bible differently (and are often at odds with each other about what God and the bible really meant) and last but not least he failed to explain why his personal interpretation of certain parts as a metaphor should be given any merit over the countless other interpretations by other Christians who take those particular parts as literal or the whole bible as literal.

(Not to forget the whole episode in which he says the commandment to love your fellow man does in no way prohibit the killing of the "fellow man" by good Christians.)

Just like his new OP is not any better either. For the most part it can be summed up with "I can't see this happening to me, so it does not happen at all."
That's one of the problems with a lot of theists coming here. Most of them don't notice any of this behavior of "good Christians" towards atheists because they are part of the in-group and they aren't facing the pointy end of the sticks their fellow Christians are holding.

1. "You might lose your job."  Nope, my job has no relation to my religion.
A great number of atheists living in the bible belt dare to think otherwise. We also have some self-employed members here who would lose most of their customers in those areas if they made their non-belief known, effectively resulting in them going out of business.

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2. "You might get arrested."  Nope, I live in a country (the United States) where everyone may practice the religion of their choice.
Sorry, but wrong again.

One of the most prominent examples would be David Mills, who tried to organize a protest against a faith healer coming to his town (in the US I might add). He knew when it comes to believers having their belief threatened, things can often get quite heated (Have a look at the mailbag for examples).
Naturally he contacted the local police office for protection of the protest against the "Miracle Rally" of the faith healer.

He spoke with three officers. The first one told him he planned to attend the rally himself and would spit in Mill's face if he saw him. The second one flat out told Mills if anything happened and no matter who started it, they'd arrest Mills and his fellow protesters because they were trying to interfere with God's work. And last but not least the third police officer told him to go to hell, that nobody wants to protect atheists and he hoped somebody would bloody Mills up good.

And quite a while back I also remember a post on this forum of a fellow forum member who got a bit of police harassment for having a Darwin fish bumper sticker on his car.

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In fact there's no country in the world where you can get arrested for switching from Christianity to atheism,
Try that in the African countries where there are wars fought over who's sides Christianity is right. Try that in the African countries that made homosexuality a crime (with support and guidance from Christian organizations from the US). You should have tried that during the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina (a war that was all about religious beliefs).

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while their are a number of countries run by atheists where you'll get arrested if you switch from atheism to Christianity.  Cuba and China are two examples.
Except that none of these arrests happen "in the name of atheism." If there was a freethinker organization trying to form in China, the members would be arrested too.

These countries have no state religion but none of their actions are done in the name of atheism.

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3. "You might get beaten."  Nope.  Just as with the previous one, there's no place where leaving Christianity will get anyone beaten, but plentiful places where leaving atheism will get you beaten.
You obviously haven't talked to any atheists who live in the bible belt of the USA.

It doesn't take a lot of searching to find quite news not only about the destruction of property merely for being connected to atheists and freethinkers but also news about atheists getting a fist in the face for as much as hanging up posters advertising for an atheist event.

As many members on this board have said it in one way or the other: In certain corners of the US even going so far as having a simple atheist bumper sticker on your car will mean that when you return to your parked car it has a lot more bumps, dents and scratches in the paint than it had before. And if you arrive at the wrong time you end up with a lot more bumps, dents and scratches, too.

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4. "Your kids might get kicked out of the Boy Scouts."  First I don't have kids.
Irrelevant. 

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Second, if I did, they probably wouldn't be in Boy Scouts.
Irrelevant.

This is not exclusively about Boy Scouts. It's about a whole lot of organizations that emphasize on the belief in God and simply don't want neither you nor your kids as a member if you don't share their belief.

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Third, if I had kids in Boy Scouts, my religious decisions would not get them kicked out.
You might want to research that a bit more...

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5. "You would be shunned by friends and family."  My family is mostly atheists.  It's funny that the video maker would think that atheists would be so small-minded as to stop liking a person merely because they changed their religious viewpoint.  Certainly none of my Christian friends would do such a thing.
Funny thing you say that.

Do we really have to go through all the countless instances, personal testimonials and reports about Christian family members and friends completely dropping people for openly being atheists? Really?

This is once again a case of "I don't believe this could happen to me, so it never happens."

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In my previous thread, nobody was able to defend what the video said, so the responses mostly attacked me or changed the subject.
You do realize that people can still read the old thread, right?

It was more like you were unable to defend your own reasoning.

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If no one can defend it, I guess I'll assume that the video maker resorted to these absurd lies because he knows that the truth always works against atheism and for Christianity.
Oh, that had me laugh out so loud I made the cat wake up and run out of the room.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 10:30:24 AM by Asmoday »
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2011, 11:23:27 AM »
I don't believe in mind reading.

Now, try to help some of your fellow christians understand why prayer doesn't work. Together, we might make a difference.

Thanks for your support.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2011, 11:44:20 AM »
Here's the short version of AlexBP's post: "It can't happen to me, therefore, it can't happen at all."  To say that this is illogical is putting it mildly.  That would be like me saying that since I can't get ovarian cancer, nobody can.

AlexBP, if you're truly and completely secure from any kind of harm or prejudiced behavior or anything, well, then, more power to you.  But consider yourself fortunate -- many of the rest of us (including me) aren't so lucky.
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Offline Agamemnon

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2011, 12:50:47 PM »
This is in response to the video "Why Does Every Intelligent Christian Disobey Jesus".  I already shredded the main body of the video in an earlier thread but I thought I'd come back and shred the ending, which is even more loony.

What "shredding?" Just the usual "secret decoder ring" garbage. Not even decent secret decoder ring garbage-- just the run-of-the mill stuff. But you have a bad habit of claiming victory, regardless of the actual results of the discussion.
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Offline AlexBP

Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2011, 02:11:54 PM »
It may not apply to you directly, but there are people on this board who have had a fair view of the things described there happen to them.
Why did the video maker use the second person pronoun "you" to tell me that I would suffer these consequences if I left Christianity, if what he really meant was that someone else would?  Even a kindergarten student can tell the difference between saying "you are tall" and "somebody else is tall".

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Not everywhere, and I am glad to see that where you are, atheists are apparently not discriminated against. But it does happen - a lot! Ask around here and you will get some pretty gruesome stories.
You atheists may be satisfied with fictional stories, but I'm a Christian so my goal is to find the truth.  If the best you can offer me is anonymous posts on the 'net (or even non-anonymous posts on the 'net) isn't that basically the same as admitting that it isn't true?  Isn't it widely known that posts on internet message boards can contain untruths?

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I have friends myself in the bible belt who make sure to go to church, because they own their own business is a small town and they have seen other businesses boycotted because of perceived irreligiousness, for instance.
The video maker claims that I'm in danger of being beaten and arrested if I cease to be a Christian.  You're willing to admit that he was wrong about that, but you say that he's right about those things happening to other people.  Then what do boycotts have to do with it?  Has anyone on this board actually been beaten and arrested for being non-Christian?  If so, where can I find unbiased, outside confirmation of this fact.

(By the way, lectures about the terrors of the "bible belt" aren't going to fool me.  I grew up in Kentucky and North Carolina, went to grad school in Tennessee, and currently live in Virginia, so I know that culture-wise the Bible belt is not much different from any other part of the country, and I never encountered any boycott of the type you described.)

Offline One Above All

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2011, 02:29:07 PM »
You atheists may be satisfied with fictional stories, but I'm a Christian so my goal is to find the truth.  If the best you can offer me is anonymous posts on the 'net (or even non-anonymous posts on the 'net) isn't that basically the same as admitting that it isn't true?  Isn't it widely known that posts on internet message boards can contain untruths?

Yes... What about atheists murdered by religious people due to being atheists, or atheism being misrepresented by theist assholes, claiming that "atheist ideals" (since apparently atheism has core ideals, of which I was previously unaware) caused more deaths than religious ideals (although the maximum number of deaths by atheists[1] is about 4% of the maximum number of deaths caused by theists[2]), or the fact that a century or so ago, if you looked up atheist/atheism in the dictionary, it would come up as "evil" etc, or the fact that (some) theists act like giant pricks (both IRL and on the internet), saying that atheists are hopeless etc etc etc

I could go on literally until my fingers hurt

EDIT: For the examples I didn't present links for, just check this forum
EDIT #2: @ the staff - The language used in my post (assholes, pricks etc) might be a bit harsh but it's appropriate considering the meaning of the words I used and considering the actions of the theists I speak of
 1. Note: Not in the name of atheism, as that is impossible
 2. In the name of their religion
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 02:32:44 PM by Blaziken_rjcf »
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Offline AlexBP

Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2011, 02:36:06 PM »
Sorry, but wrong again.

One of the most prominent examples would be David Mills, who tried to organize a protest against a faith healer coming to his town (in the US I might add). He knew when it comes to believers having their belief threatened, things can often get quite heated (Have a look at the mailbag for examples).
Naturally he contacted the local police office for protection of the protest against the "Miracle Rally" of the faith healer.

He spoke with three officers. The first one told him he planned to attend the rally himself and would spit in Mill's face if he saw him. The second one flat out told Mills if anything happened and no matter who started it, they'd arrest Mills and his fellow protesters because they were trying to interfere with God's work. And last but not least the third police officer told him to go to hell, that nobody wants to protect atheists and he hoped somebody would bloody Mills up good.
Are you able to link me to a newspaper article about this incident?  If not, why should I believe that it happened?

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And quite a while back I also remember a post on this forum of a fellow forum member who got a bit of police harassment for having a Darwin fish bumper sticker on his car.
Again, why should I believe this is true?

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In fact there's no country in the world where you can get arrested for switching from Christianity to atheism, Try that in the African countries where there are wars fought over who's sides Christianity is right. Try that in the African countries that made homosexuality a crime (with support and guidance from Christian organizations from the US).
Which African countries are those exactly?  (I'm aware that Uganda passed a law criminalizing homosexuality but it has nothing to do with any Christian organization from America or elsewhere.  In any case that's irrelevant to this thread, where we're talking about the consequences of leaving Christianity.  I predicted that folks would try to change the subject and you've done exactly that.  Clearly I have powers of prophecy.)
 
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You should have tried that during the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina (a war that was all about religious beliefs).
The war in Bosnia-Herzegovina was started by an atheist who proudly massacred tens of thousands of Christians and Muslims.  As you doubtlessly know, Josip Broz Tito, who took power in Yugoslavia after WWII was an atheist.  Like most atheist dictators, his reign was bloody, as he killed an estimated 250,000 people.  He had numerous Catholic clergy arrested or killed and he purged his government of Christians.  Tito died in 1980.  His successor, Slobodan Milosevic, largely continued his violent policies, but various regions of Yugoslavia had had enough and tried to break away from Serbia in 1991.  Milosevic, not happy about that, incited Serb groups to start the war.  His tactics throughout were famously brutal and he had a particular focus on cruelty to the Catholic clergy, as for instance when he ordered his troops to rape nuns before killing them.  Anyone doubting the facts can read about his trial for war crimes and genocide at the Hague.

So yes, the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina was about religious differences, specifically the differences between an atheist madman who ruled by mass murder and Christians who wanted freedom of religious practice.
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These countries have no state religion but none of their actions are done in the name of atheism.
I'm sure that the thousands of Christians and others who have been arrested, tortured, or murdered because they refused to be atheists take great comfort from the fact that it wasn't being done in the name of atheism.

Offline Vivisectus

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2011, 02:38:49 PM »
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You atheists may be satisfied with fictional stories, but I'm a Christian so my goal is to find the truth.


Dibs on having that for my new sig!!! LOL!!!

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If the best you can offer me is anonymous posts on the 'net (or even non-anonymous posts on the 'net) isn't that basically the same as admitting that it isn't true?  Isn't it widely known that posts on internet message boards can contain untruths?

Have you examined the logic behind that? All athenians are liars, says Socrates the athenian :)

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The video maker claims that I'm in danger of being beaten and arrested if I cease to be a Christian.  You're willing to admit that he was wrong about that, but you say that he's right about those things happening to other people.  Then what do boycotts have to do with it?  Has anyone on this board actually been beaten and arrested for being non-Christian?  If so, where can I find unbiased, outside confirmation of this fact

I think someone posted a video there are one stage for some people being beaten to death for having the wrong religion.

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(By the way, lectures about the terrors of the "bible belt" aren't going to fool me.  I grew up in Kentucky and North Carolina, went to grad school in Tennessee, and currently live in Virginia, so I know that culture-wise the Bible belt is not much different from any other part of the country, and I never encountered any boycott of the type you described.)

Good ole Christian boy like you? Course not. I assure you it happens though.

Now don;t get me wrong - I am not saying there is systematic repression of Atheists out there in the states. I am just saying that there IS a lot of bigotry, and that it DOES take the forms described at times.
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Offline AlexBP

Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2011, 02:51:19 PM »
Quote
If the best you can offer me is anonymous posts on the 'net (or even non-anonymous posts on the 'net) isn't that basically the same as admitting that it isn't true?  Isn't it widely known that posts on internet message boards can contain untruths?

Have you examined the logic behind that?
What exactly are you referring to here?  I said that not everything posted on the internet is true.  You appear to disagree.  Does that mean that you think everything posted on the internet is true?  If not, then what are you saying?

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I think someone posted a video there are one stage for some people being beaten to death for having the wrong religion.
Huh?
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I assure you it happens though.
I believe that I've already explained that I won't accept anonymous, unspecified internet claims at face value.

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2011, 03:06:31 PM »
AlexBP, you're applying a great deal of skepticism towards certain claims being made.  I'd like to ask if you'd applied that same level of skepticism towards the bible.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Vivisectus

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2011, 03:07:50 PM »
You are asserting things on a website. One of the things you are asserting is how unreliable assertions on the internet are. I find this funny. That's all.

Heres some examples to get you started, from http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/downey_24_4.htm

Gray, Tennessee: Carletta Sims joined a financial firm in June 2001. Shortly afterward, two Baptist coworkers took offense upon learning that Sims was an atheist. Management granted the coworkers’ request to be assigned workspaces further from Sims. When Sims complained about a picture of Jesus left on her computer, management discharged her. Sims filed suit, seeking $250,000; U.S. District Judge Thomas Hull ruled that “religious discrimination (or preferential treatment of Christians) can be inferred.” In January 2004, the major bank that had since acquired the firm settled with Sims for an undisclosed amount.

Ada, Oklahoma: A Baptist student told a local newspaper she wouldn’t take professor William Zellner’s classes because he was an atheist, triggering a flurry of abuse. Zellner received harassing notes and telephone calls, some threatening. His car was vandalized, for a time on a daily basis. A local church sold “I am praying for Dr. Zellner” buttons. His children experienced shunning and beatings from religious children.

Minneapolis, Minnesota: First-grader Michael Bristor, an atheist, was denied an honor roll certificate when he refused to participate in an unconstitutional “prayer time” at a public school. For three years, administrators ignored the family’s complaints until a lawsuit was filed.

Caro, Michigan: In December 2001, Anonka—an open atheist who maintains a museum of Christian religious atrocities—appeared before the Tuscola County Board of Commissioners to challenge a nativity scene placed on public land. Commissioners responded angrily, saying she had no right to be present and proceeding to ridicule her. Anonka and her family suffered repeated harassment including annoyance calls, threatening calls and letters, and vandalism. In February 2004, the county settled in U.S. District Court, agreeing to pay an undisclosed sum and to issue a “public expression of regret.”

Pocopson, Pennsylvania: My own atheism came to prominence when I became involved in a legal challenge to a Ten Commandments plaque on the wall of the Chester County, Pennsylvania, courthouse. Neighbors organized a shunning campaign, some area merchants refused to do business with me, and I received hundreds of threatening letters and phone calls. (The depth of public animus against me became a subject of local news and magazine coverage.) I was forced to close my interior decorating business because of death threats that compelled me to stop visiting the homes of persons unknown to me.

Calgary, Alberta: An eleven-year-old boy (name withheld) experienced daily physical attacks and threats against his life by schoolmates—notably the sons of three local pastors—after protesting intercom readings of the Lord’s Prayer in a public school. He was repeatedly body-checked into hallway walls and attacked in the rest rooms. One pastor’s son stalked him with a butcher knife in an empty portable classroom. Despite the seriousness of this incident, no action was taken. The boy’s parents transferred him to another school for his own safety.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2011, 03:09:02 PM »
AlexBP, you're applying a great deal of skepticism towards certain claims being made.  I'd like to ask if you'd applied that same level of skepticism towards the bible.

Answer expected:
He did but (his version of) god made some extremely "explicit" intervention(s) in his/her life and he/she just "knew" it was this specific god. And being brought up believing in said god had nothing to do with it
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline Tinyal

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2011, 03:20:32 PM »
If the best you can offer me is anonymous posts on the 'net (or even non-anonymous posts on the 'net) isn't that basically the same as admitting that it isn't true?  Isn't it widely known that posts on internet message boards can contain untruths?

Alex, your post reminds me of someone who can't get their head out of their nether region and  who doesn't pay attention to news sources, bbc reports , magazines, studys & reports at public library's , college courses - I could go on and on. Some of the data you'd find is no doubt compromised, but there's no way all of it is lies.   You can (and, in my view, undoubtedly will) continue to keep your fingers firmly implanted in your ears as regards the dangers of coming out as an atheist all over the world, but that doesn't make the truth go away.  Keeping your ears stuffed up is well practiced by most of the christians I know personally - I doubt you're substantially different. (nearly all christian's I know also deny human caused global weather changes, another subject for which there is massive evidence).
You do realize it's effectively impossible to get elected anywhere in the USA if it's known you're an atheist?  I think there's one (1) elected official out of the 1000's who's come out.  Studies have shown it's easier to get elected as a convicted felon than as an atheist.  Google it yourself.
 And no, it's not my responsibility to do your research for you - I couldn't care less what you think.


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What exactly are you referring to here?  I said that not everything posted on the internet is true.  You appear to disagree.  Does that mean that you think everything posted on the internet is true?  If not, then what are you saying?
I suppose you're one of those 'everything's black or white' types?  Of course not everything is true - they did not state that everything is - that's a strawman you just created to argue against.  Pay attention to what people actually say/type.


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I believe that I've already explained that I won't accept anonymous, unspecified internet claims at face value.
Let me repeat for the hard of hearing - I don't give a damm what you won't accept at face value.  Do some research for once in your life.  But remember not to study too hard, you might find the truth conflicts with your beliefs.

Folks, I think this one is hopeless :(
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2011, 03:32:19 PM »
AlexBP, you're applying a great deal of skepticism towards certain claims being made.  I'd like to ask if you'd applied that same level of skepticism towards the bible.

Answer expected:
He did but (his version of) god made some extremely "explicit" intervention(s) in his/her life and he/she just "knew" it was this specific god. And being brought up believing in said god had nothing to do with it

Most likely.  But who knows?  Maybe he'll be The One with the answers.  Maybe he'll say "Yes, I know you're familar with the bible; yes, I know you've read it cover-to-cover; yes, I know your objections with the bible; yes, I know that up until now, there has been no scientifically verified proof of god's existence.  But now, I have found rock-soild, scientifically verifiable proof of god's existence, and this proof addresses all of your concerns, and I have submitted this proof to the scientific community to be peer-reviewed.  Expect the results in a few days."

Well, a guy can dream...  8)
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline AlexBP

Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2011, 03:36:04 PM »
AlexBP, you're applying a great deal of skepticism towards certain claims being made.
"A great deal of skepticism"?  I don't think that refusing to accept everything posted on the internet is a great deal of skepticism.  I would hope--perhaps vainly--that it's the normal level.  But most of you folks are generally proud of your supposed willingness to question everything.  Isn't it a little odd that you're now demanding I accept anonymous posts as reality?

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I'd like to ask if you'd applied that same level of skepticism towards the bible.
I have indeed spent an enormous amount of time researching the claims for and against accuracy of the Gospels and read many books on the matter from many different perspectives.  If you'd like to discuss that we can do so in a different thread, perhaps in the moderated debate section, since it's not relevant to this one.

Offline AlexBP

Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2011, 03:46:45 PM »
You do realize it's effectively impossible to get elected anywhere in the USA if it's known you're an atheist?  I think there's one (1) elected official out of the 1000's who's come out.  Studies have shown it's easier to get elected as a convicted felon than as an atheist.  Google it yourself.
Okay, I googled it.  As you can see, nothing comes up that justifies what you say.  In any case you're obviously wrong since in most states convicted felons can't vote, much less run for office.  Further, this is changing the subject.  Let me emphasize again: the video says that I could be arrested or beaten if I cease to be a Christian.  Do you have any evidence that this is true?

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And no, it's not my responsibility to do your research for you - I couldn't care less what you think
So basically you're saying that you have evidence but you won't tell me what the evidence is.  If not, then why should I accept your word that it exists?

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Folks, I think this one is hopeless :(
So does that mean that you won't be posting in my threads any more?

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2011, 03:57:30 PM »
Let's have a look at whether any of them are true.

1. "You might lose your job."  Nope, my job has no relation to my religion.

2. "You might get arrested."  Nope, I live in a country (the United States) where everyone may practice the religion of their choice.  In fact there's no country in the world where you can get arrested for switching from Christianity to atheism, while their are a number of countries run by atheists where you'll get arrested if you switch from atheism to Christianity.  Cuba and China are two examples.

3. "You might get beaten."  Nope.  Just as with the previous one, there's no place where leaving Christianity will get anyone beaten, but plentiful places where leaving atheism will get you beaten.

4. "Your kids might get kicked out of the Boy Scouts."  First I don't have kids.  Second, if I did, they probably wouldn't be in Boy Scouts.  Third, if I had kids in Boy Scouts, my religious decisions would not get them kicked out.

5. "You would be shunned by friends and family."  My family is mostly atheists.  It's funny that the video maker would think that atheists would be so small-minded as to stop liking a person merely because they changed their religious viewpoint.  Certainly none of my Christian friends would do such a thing.
@AlexBP,
It is apparent that you have taken the "You" to mean "you personally" when it is, in fact the equivalent of the third person pronoun, "one". This is shown by the verbs being in the conditional tense.

The fact that you feel the world revolves around you (AlexBP) is not at all surprising. You have created a little god by picking and choosing between verses of the bible you (AlexBP) like and will follow and those which you (AlexBP) can reject or call "symbolic or allegorical" because you disagree with them.

Having made your construction kit god, it is clear that he is you (AlexBP) and you (AlexBP) worship yourself.

'Fess up: I'm right aren't I?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline One Above All

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2011, 04:06:31 PM »
In any case you're obviously wrong since in most states convicted felons can't vote, much less run for office.

True. However...
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline AlexBP

Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2011, 04:14:46 PM »
You are asserting things on a website. One of the things you are asserting is how unreliable assertions on the internet are. I find this funny. That's all.
In this thread I'm asking whether anyone can provide an explanation for the video in question.  My assertions are not really relevant.  My question is what's relevant, and your answers. 

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Heres some examples to get you started, from http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/downey_24_4.htm
Thank you for actually being willing to answer and provide links.  However, it's not terribly convincing.  The author begins by acknowledging that everybody, including atheist allies, who's done a study on the issue has concluded that discrimination against atheists is not a problem.  Then she insists that this conclusion is wrong because of six anecdotes.  In addition to the obvious problem of whether the anecdotes are true, they just don't add up to case.  Some are about  people who tried to censor the religious expression of others based on the constitutional separation of church and state (which isn't in my copy of the the Constitution).  It's common sense that when you try to silence others by force, they'll probably not respond by liking you too much.  In the case of Carletta Sims it seems the government was actually on her side as she won a lawsuit claiming religious discrimination.  The case of William Zellner's children being beaten would be serious if true, but it raises the question of why no one was convicted in this crime if it actually happened.

Real discrimination would look something more like the case of Frank Lay and Robert Freeman, government workers who were threatened with jail time over an ACLU complaint that they said a prayer, and the student Mary Allen who was banned from speaking at her own graduation because she's a Christian.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/14/criminal-prayer-case-stirs-protests/?feat=home_headlines


Offline Graybeard

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Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline AlexBP

Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2011, 04:37:58 PM »
Yes... What about atheists murdered by religious people due to being atheists, or atheism being misrepresented by theist assholes, claiming that "atheist ideals" (since apparently atheism has core ideals, of which I was previously unaware) caused more deaths than religious ideals (although the maximum number of deaths by atheists[1] is about 4% of the maximum number of deaths caused by theists[2]), or the fact that a century or so ago, if you looked up atheist/atheism in the dictionary, it would come up as "evil" etc, or the fact that (some) theists act like giant pricks (both IRL and on the internet), saying that atheists are hopeless etc etc etc
 1. Note: Not in the name of atheism, as that is impossible
 2. In the name of their religion
What about them?

I happen to have an old edition of the Oxford English Dictionary.  I looked up "atheist" and it did not say "evil" or anything related to that, so you're wrong there.

You say the "maximum number of deaths by atheists is about 4% of the maximum number of deaths caused by theists".  First of all, why is this relevant?  The video ascribes that anyone who ceases to be a Christian will be arrested or beaten.  It says nothing about theists generally, so you're just trying to change the subject.  Second, how do you know that what you say is true?  Consider that the atheist champion, Chairman Mao, killed seventy million of people, give or take.  (See The Black Book of Communism for a cite.)  So if you actually knew 100 murders by theists for every 4 by atheists, you'd have to find 1.75 billion murders by theists to account for Mao alone.  And of course Mao is just number one on a very long list of atheists who committed massive crimes against humanity.

Oh, and some people have said nasty things about you on the internet.  Excuse me while a cry a bucket of tears in sympathy.

Offline AlexBP

Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2011, 04:46:19 PM »
@AlexBP,
It is apparent that you have taken the "You" to mean "you personally" when it is, in fact the equivalent of the third person pronoun, "one". This is shown by the verbs being in the conditional tense.
The video addresses the viewer as "you" throughout, with no indication that it isn't meant personally.  However, as I've already pointed out, the entire statement is ludicrous regardless of whether we interpret it as addressed to myself or to Christians generally.

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The fact that you feel the world revolves around you
I don't feel that the world revolves around me.

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'Fess up: I'm right [sic] aren't I?
No, you're wrong.  But since you apparently claim the ability to read minds, I can ask you the same question that I asked the maker of the video: are you willing to put this ability to scientific tests?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists
What's your reason for posting a link (to Wikipedia!) while not saying anything of your own?

Like the others here, it seems that you'd prefer to change the subject rather than defending the video.  By your interpretation, it says that all Christians are at risk of being arrested and beaten if they choose to leave Christianity.  Are you able to justify this statement?

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2011, 04:48:11 PM »
I happen to have an old edition of the Oxford English Dictionary.  I looked up "atheist" and it did not say "evil" or anything related to that, so you're wrong there.

Not finding it in one dictionary does not prove it false, especially in the case of the OED, which is probably more objective than most.  I remember seeing "evil" and/or "wickedness" listed as definitions for "atheism" listed in dictionaries as little as about twenty years ago, and it's still listed as such in some dictionaries today, although mercifully the definition is now usually listed as obsolete or archaic.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/atheism
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Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2011, 04:08:42 AM »
You asked two questions about atheists being harmed that I know little or nothing about, so I won't pretend otherwise. But the following I will respond to:

In fact there's no country in the world where you can get arrested for switching from Christianity to atheism, Try that in the African countries where there are wars fought over who's sides Christianity is right. Try that in the African countries that made homosexuality a crime (with support and guidance from Christian organizations from the US).
Which African countries are those exactly?  (I'm aware that Uganda passed a law criminalizing homosexuality but it has nothing to do with any Christian organization from America or elsewhere.  In any case that's irrelevant to this thread, where we're talking about the consequences of leaving Christianity.  I predicted that folks would try to change the subject and you've done exactly that.  Clearly I have powers of prophecy.)
You kinda wrong about "any Christian organization from America or elsewhere"
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128491183
from another source:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/04/world/africa/04uganda.html
And another, which includes this quote:
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The introduction of the anti-homosexual bill in 2009 followed a conference in Kampala that was attended by American activists who consider same-gender relationships sinful. The U.S. evangelicals believe gays and lesbians can become heterosexual through prayer and counseling. Some gay Ugandans still resent that American intervention.
http://newsone.com/world/newsonestaff2/gay-ugandan-activist-david-kato-killed/

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You should have tried that during the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina (a war that was all about religious beliefs).
The war in Bosnia-Herzegovina was started by an atheist who proudly massacred tens of thousands of Christians and Muslims.  As you doubtlessly know, Josip Broz Tito, who took power in Yugoslavia after WWII was an atheist.  Like most atheist dictators, his reign was bloody, as he killed an estimated 250,000 people.  He had numerous Catholic clergy arrested or killed and he purged his government of Christians.  Tito died in 1980.  His successor, Slobodan Milosevic, largely continued his violent policies, but various regions of Yugoslavia had had enough and tried to break away from Serbia in 1991.  Milosevic, not happy about that, incited Serb groups to start the war.  His tactics throughout were famously brutal and he had a particular focus on cruelty to the Catholic clergy, as for instance when he ordered his troops to rape nuns before killing them.  Anyone doubting the facts can read about his trial for war crimes and genocide at the Hague.

So yes, the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina was about religious differences, specifically the differences between an atheist madman who ruled by mass murder and Christians who wanted freedom of religious practice.

I have no desire to defend the atrocities done in the former Yugoslavia or anywhere else, but the catholics were not killed simply because Milosevic was an atheist. The catholics joined and abetted Hitler in WWII, where a couple of million Yugoslavs died. This pissed off the locals. They're still mad. Again, I can't excuse or condone what was done, but it wasn't just because Milosevic was an atheist. There were more down the earth reasons. And though Tito was a total a**hole, he did hold the country together despite all of its ethnic differences, and he was actually pretty popular, though yes he did kill a lot of folks. Later in his reign he stopped doing that and got kind of nice. He got foreign aid from the US, something no other communist nation got. He let people come and go long before the other communist nations fell.

He became a communist because he was captured by the Russians in WWI when it was still a Tsarist nation, and imprisoned brutally. The Russiana revolution came along, busted him out, and freed him from the clutches of his Eastern Orthodox captors. Again, I'm not excusing anything, but he had his reasons.

Also, after WWII, and the betrayal of the nation by the catholic church, he did try to negotiate with them so that they could return to their old relationship with the country and people. It didn't work, but he tried. The head Bishop had been a Nazi sympathizer, or perhaps worse, and the two of them didn't get along. Sh*t happens.

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I'm sure that the thousands of Christians and others who have been arrested, tortured, or murdered because they refused to be atheists take great comfort from the fact that it wasn't being done in the name of atheism.

They weren't murdered because they wouldn't become atheists. The died because they fought against Tito, or because they were innocents caught in the crossfire. But Tito wasn't doing folks in for anti-religious reasons. That wasn't a big issue for him. I remember back in the 70's when people were amazed that Yugoslavia had held together without people fighting each other to the death. That didn't happen until the fall of the Soviet Union and the breakup of Yugoslavia. Then all the various religious factions had a field day killing each other. And I'm sure there were atheists in there as well, but it was the muslims and the catholics and the orthodox killing each other for religious reasons that caused most of it. And the old wounds including the catholic church's relationship with the catholic nazis didn't help a bit.

Oh, and you won't get beat up if you become an atheist. You're such a pleasant person I'm sure you'll skate by. But your inability to extrapolate the generic "you" to mean you AND others and understand that folks do die for being atheists just like they die for attending religious rallies and just like they die for being gay.

Like this guy did:
http://vassleer.newsvine.com/_news/2007/01/03/504714-murdered-for-being-an-atheist

Is this atheism stuff as serious as forgetting to bring a gun to a Tea Party rally? Probably not. But people do die because they are atheists just like others die for being religious. If it is wrong to complain, then that means we lack one more freedom, and we're not going to put up with that either.

The point is this: The world isn't a pretty place. You guys ain't helping things much. So we mention it. Please allow that your complaints about the world aren't the only ones out there. Adapt.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline Odin

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2011, 05:27:02 AM »
Okay, I googled it.  As you can see, nothing comes up that justifies what you say.

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Legislation/constitution/article6.html

Everyone, look at Section 8 of Article VI of the current Constitution of the State of North Carolina.  How many other states have things like this in their Constitutions?

This can't even be challenged as being unconstitutional under state law, because it is in the Constitution!

Odin, King of the Gods

Offline One Above All

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Re: Further response to a video
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2011, 06:39:51 AM »
What about them?

So, "fictitious" internet stories, as you call them, are not relevant but stories which you'd accept as real (being in the news and all) are not relevant either? Is ANYTHING relevant?

I happen to have an old edition of the Oxford English Dictionary.  I looked up "atheist" and it did not say "evil" or anything related to that, so you're wrong there.

pianodwarf already addressed this so I see no reason why I should do it again

You say the "maximum number of deaths by atheists is about 4% of the maximum number of deaths caused by theists".  First of all, why is this relevant?  The video ascribes that anyone who ceases to be a Christian will be arrested or beaten.  It says nothing about theists generally, so you're just trying to change the subject.  Second, how do you know that what you say is true?  Consider that the atheist champion, Chairman Mao, killed seventy million of people, give or take.  (See The Black Book of Communism for a cite.)  So if you actually knew 100 murders by theists for every 4 by atheists, you'd have to find 1.75 billion murders by theists to account for Mao alone.  And of course Mao is just number one on a very long list of atheists who committed massive crimes against humanity.

Quote from: atheistblogger.com
Theism has managed to kill an estimate of 2,229,074,100 people.

Atheism has managed to kill an estimate of 95,000,000 people.
[1]

Also, it's relevant. Very relevant. Because most, if not all, of those killed were, in fact, "heathens", as they are[2] called. That includes but is not limited to:
Everyone who does not follow the religion which caused said murders
Non-theists

Oh, and some people have said nasty things about you on the internet.  Excuse me while a cry a bucket of tears in sympathy.

And the relevance of this would be...?
 1. Source
 2. Not "were", "are"
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.