Author Topic: Learn About Evolution!  (Read 5868 times)

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Offline Goodkat

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2008, 12:46:05 AM »
Since humans were created by God, in His image, why would we not learn how to structure a life form?

In other words, your answer to my question is "No, I wouldn't renounce God if humans were able to create life in a laboratory."

So would it be reasonable to assume that you don't have a problem with evolution or even abiogenesis per se, because God could have made those things happen?


Correct. Humans can accomplish that which God gives them the ability.

I have a problem with the word "evolution", because it, by definition, assumes an upward progression of the creature from a simple to a decidedly more complex creature. I just don't see any bona fide examples of this happening in nature. This observation thus nullifies abiogenesis as defined by today's theoretical models. What I do see is lateral differentiation of the creature. One ancestral dog-wolf differentiating into many breeds.
btw I have no problem whatsoever with aeons of time as pertaining to the age of the earth .
The thing is, if a wolf can become a dog over 500 years, then imagine what it could become given millions of years. The only reason you have not observed the changes is because you have not lived long enough, it takes a really long time, however, we can observe it in the fossil record. Also, evolution does not always lead to an increase in complexity, it just usually does.

Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2008, 03:43:18 AM »
Correct. Humans can accomplish that which God gives them the ability.

I have a problem with the word "evolution", because it, by definition, assumes an upward progression of the creature from a simple to a decidedly more complex creature.

On what do you base this assertion? The assertion of evolution is that the surviving descendants will be those most fit for their environment. The inference of evolution - backed up by a wealth of data in genetics, anatomy, palaeontology - is that we and all other living things developed as a result of progressive changes over generations. Evolution doesn't specify complexity - it just so happens that complexity is an emergent function of it.

Also, evolution deals with populations, not individuals; and what do you mean by "decidedly more complex"? As such, I have a serious problem with your so-called "definition".

Quote
I just don't see any bona fide examples of this happening in nature.

Well, if you will come up with half-arsed definitions, and you're not exactly looking very hard, then that's hardly surprising. It helps if you look at what the ToE actually says, and what we can observe and predict as a result of evolutionary Theory.

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This observation thus nullifies abiogenesis as defined by today's theoretical models.

That appears to be some extremely sloppy thinking there. How does one non-observation, particularly one as erroneous as this one appears to be, "nullify" abiogenesis?

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What I do see is lateral differentiation of the creature. One ancestral dog-wolf differentiating into many breeds.

Perhaps you should look further. :)

Quote
btw I have no problem whatsoever with aeons of time as pertaining to the age of the earth .

Well that, at least, is a relief.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 03:46:05 AM by Deus ex Machina »
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Offline moG

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2008, 04:21:00 AM »
Quote
1)The inference of evolution - backed up by a wealth of data in genetics, anatomy, palaeontology - is that we and all other living things developed as a result of progressive changes over generations.

2)Evolution doesn't specify complexity - it just so happens that complexity is an emergent function of it.

3)Also, evolution deals with populations, not individuals; and what do you mean by "decidedly more complex"? As such, I have a serious problem with your so-called "definition

1)Perhaps you could provide one bona fide example?

2)I said "assumes" which in the context that I provided, happens to agree with the latter part of your statement.....

3) And populations are composed of what? "Sub populations"? Or individuals?

Btw ...Do you believe that the universe is animate, sentient,omniscient and possesses aseity?
1Co 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2008, 06:20:11 AM »
1)Perhaps you could provide one bona fide example?

Perhaps you could look at the links I provided? In particular the "observe" one.

Quote
2)I said "assumes" which in the context that I provided, happens to agree with the latter part of your statement.....

No, it doesn't. Evolution doesn't assume complexity. Emergent complexity is an observation. In one sense, every speciation event is an example of this: wherever there are two species where once there was one is an example of an increase in genetic diversity - and as a result, an increase in the complexity of the ecosystem. Similarly, every emergent trait that enables an organism to do something better, or do something it couldn't do before, is an example of emergent complexity - whether it's an internal lung, a backbone, an opposable thumb or the ability of a bacteria colony to eat nylon. The organisms can do something the previous generations of organisms couldn't. That's emergent complexity.

And you still haven't specified what you mean by "decidedly more complex". Please do so before we continue.

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3) And populations are composed of what? "Sub populations"? Or individuals?

That would be a fallacy of division. An individual does not "progress" in any evolutionary sense.

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Btw ...Do you believe that the universe is animate, sentient,omniscient and possesses aseity?

What relevance has this question? (Also, what's 'aseity'?)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 06:26:34 AM by Deus ex Machina »
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2008, 09:03:43 AM »
Quote
While you may not be innumerate,you don't seem to have a good grasp on probability theory.

If you have enough education on the subject to actually be able to make such a claim, then you should also be able to explain where xphobe has gone wrong.  You can, right?

I think so...Where Xphobe has erred is in thinking that abiogenesis and the subsequent evolution of life forms can be inferred by simple mathematical calculations. His premise was the "fact" that the Miller - Ulrey experiment which had a time span of one week and yielded 22 amino acids would (given an extremely long time frame and a world sized laboratory) indubitably continue on a linear path ultimately producing a living organism.That, is sloppy thinking.Making some amino acids and mixing them together will never generate a living organism.

He never assumed a linear rate of change at all.  Why would you lie about that?
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Offline Shakaib

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2008, 07:25:10 AM »
***If You Reject Evolution And Decline To Read This Thread After Opening It You Obviously Don't Care About The Truth***

Evolution is the unifying theory of Biology. It details how all of the complex organisms on earth descended from less complex organisms through genetic changes and natural selection. Evolution is supported by almost every field of science, including, but not limited to, Biochemistry, Geology, Paleontology, Ecology, and Nuclear physics. The support for evolution in the scientific community is virtually unanimous, and the controversy over it is purely political, and is almost always motivated by belief in a creation myth advocated by some religion. Apart from solipsism, I am personally certain that the theory of evolution is true, and I believe that the rejection of evolution by so many is due to misinformation, lack of education, and simple misconceptions, and it is my goal to correct these unfortunate circumstances.

I will attempt to give a simple, concise explanation of the theory of evolution:

All living organisms are composed of cells, whose structure and arrangement are determined by a chemical code called DNA. The simplest organisms reproduce by copying themselves, known as asexual reproduction, and their DNA code is copied along with them, however, occasionally there will be a slight error in the copied code which will lead to new and different traits. More complex organisms reproduce sexually, where the DNA codes of two of the organisms are combined, creating a new, unique code with traits from both parents, these traits can be both physical(as in bone structure) or behavioral(as in hibernation ect.). The new traits created by the changes in the code can be harmful, neutral, or beneficial to the survival and reproduction of an organism, this is determined by environmental factors and in sexual reproduction, by behavioral patterns(example: a female peacock will prefer to mate with a male possessing brighter and more vibrant feathers). The organisms which develop harmful traits will become extinct, and the organisms which develop beneficial traits will multiply, and eventually become a new species. This process, after being repeated for billions of years, has created the organisms which can be seen today. Evolution does not encompass the origin of the universe, solar system, or the initial origin of life.

If anyone has any questions or scientific problems with evolution to present, please post them here. Also, if I made an error in my explanation, or if you have any suggestions to improve upon it, please PM me.

Thanks GoodKat! I believe in Evolution now. Now you need to believe in God for it to be fair. lol.

Offline Goodkat

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2008, 10:40:00 AM »
Thanks GoodKat! I believe in Evolution now. Now you need to believe in God for it to be fair. lol.
Perhaps you should make a thread describing Islam in detail, then ask if we have any philosophical objections to it.

Offline Shakaib

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2008, 12:16:11 PM »
Thanks GoodKat! I believe in Evolution now. Now you need to believe in God for it to be fair. lol.
Perhaps you should make a thread describing Islam in detail, then ask if we have any philosophical objections to it.

And I still doubt you'll learn.  :D

Offline Frank

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2008, 12:32:50 PM »
Here you go. All you need to know.

"Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions fall away, atheism is what is left behind".

Offline Goodkat

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2008, 04:42:28 PM »
Thanks GoodKat! I believe in Evolution now. Now you need to believe in God for it to be fair. lol.
Perhaps you should make a thread describing Islam in detail, then ask if we have any philosophical objections to it.
And I still doubt you'll learn.  :D
I had enough hope for you to start this thread, you should return the favor.

Offline xphobe

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2008, 09:51:06 PM »
Here you go. All you need to know.

I notice in that picture evolution seems to be proceeding to the left.  You can't see it because it's too far off the right edge, but W is there, along with all the fundies.

Incidentally, that's why they don't believe in evolution: in their neighborhoods it hasn't happened!
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Offline Mortal Coil

Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2008, 01:46:41 PM »

Evolution is the unifying theory of Biology. It details how all of the complex organisms on earth descended from less complex organisms through genetic changes and natural selection.

Goodkat, thank you for posting on this topic.  I read it and found it interesting and helpful.

I think the quote above is where people who believe in a designer get confused with evolution.  I understand the difference between abiogenesis and evolution (or maybe I don't) but the statement above seems to suggest that the two sciences go hand-in-hand and with out abiogenesis one could easily assume that all complex organisms came from a single common ancestor by evolution.


Offline Static

Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2008, 04:32:43 PM »
Interesting thread,
How do we get from a string of amino acids to a cell?

I have never been taught the finer details of this theory since my educational path took me more towards plant and soil relationships rather than the origin of life theory.
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Offline xphobe

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2008, 04:58:43 PM »
How do we get from a string of amino acids to a cell?

That's the 64 dollar question isn't it?   Technically the answer is called "abiogenesis" rather than "evolution", which is what this thread is about.  Once abiogenesis has occurred, evolution neatly explains the observed diversity yet similarity of all life on the planet.

There could very well have been a selection process involving the presumptive first replicating molecules, akin to evolution in organisms.  After all, those molecules were competing for resources (raw chemicals), and some were better at it than others.  They were making copies of themselves, the copying process involved the occasional error, and their environment occasionally changed.  Perfect recipe for evolution.

In fact, if the first replicators were RNA they would have been much more error-prone than current biological systems, so perhaps evolution occurred much faster then.

The big debate currently is whether the first replicators were proteins or nucleic acids.  Both scenarios have their merit points.
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Offline Static

Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2008, 05:08:33 PM »
I still dont see how an inert string of amino acids can "compete" or replicate. I am basically familiar with Miller-Urey, but didnt read into more that the glossing over it recieved in fresh year bio. Did their experiment produce strings of amino acids that could replicate? If so that my first question is retracted. Also web address to good Miller-Urey information site would be appreciated.
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Offline xphobe

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2008, 06:42:18 PM »
Aw crap.  I had this long message all typed up, then accidentally hit the little Back key over the left arrow key, and it disappeared.  I give up.   Going home to pout now.
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Offline Mortal Coil

Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2008, 08:23:42 PM »

Evolution is the unifying theory of Biology. It details how all of the complex organisms on earth descended from less complex organisms through genetic changes and natural selection.

Goodkat, thank you for posting on this topic.  I read it and found it interesting and helpful.

I think the quote above is where people who believe in a designer get confused with evolution.  I understand the difference between abiogenesis and evolution (or maybe I don't) but the statement above seems to suggest that the two sciences go hand-in-hand and with out abiogenesis one could easily assume that all complex organisms came from a single common ancestor by evolution.




Any comments?

Offline Static

Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2008, 09:14:13 PM »
I believe the two are usually tied together because abiogenesis was once called "chemical evolution". Chemical evolution is sometimes tied to the ‘General Theory of Evolution’, defined by the evolutionist Kerkut as ‘the theory that all the living forms in the world have arisen from a single source which itself came from an inorganic form’.

My light research on the subject
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Offline Mortal Coil

Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2008, 12:26:56 AM »

Evolution is the unifying theory of Biology. It details how all of the complex organisms on earth descended from less complex organisms through genetic changes and natural selection.

How far back in history do we need to go before evolution becomes abiogenesis?

Offline xphobe

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2008, 08:29:54 AM »
I still dont see how an inert string of amino acids can "compete" or replicate. I am basically familiar with Miller-Urey, but didnt read into more that the glossing over it recieved in fresh year bio. Did their experiment produce strings of amino acids that could replicate? If so that my first question is retracted. Also web address to good Miller-Urey information site would be appreciated.

I'm not a chemist so I can't give you specific examples, but it is possible to have two chemical reactions going on at the same time, which are "competing" with each other.  For example, the production of L- and R- enantiomers can be considered two distinct reactions.  In the lab, both are produced at the same rate, competing to consume the starting materials.  It is possible for conditions to change (by adding a catalyst, or a laser, or whatever) to tune the production to favor either the L- or R- chirality. 

Google "competing chemical reactions" to find more.  I was hoping to find a case where a mixture of A and B is added to C.  Then A+C->X, and B+C->Y.  The relative amounts of X and Y produced would depend on the competition for C.  Maybe a chemist here can give us an example.
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Offline Cycle4Fun

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2008, 09:00:57 AM »
Maybe a chemist here can give us an example.

Let's consider the simple acid base reactions. 

First, a quick refresher.  pH is the -log[H+].  it measures the concentration of hydrogen or H3O+.  The speed at which a reaction occurs is denoted as kx.  The acid-base reactions I will be describing are all reversible.  This means that the reaction can go back and forth between products and reactants.  At a specific concentration of species the two reactions will have the same rate and the reaction has reached equilibrium.  A reversible reaction also means the reaction has two rate constants.  For simplicities sake I am going to ignore the second reversible reaction.

We'll examine the reaction of water, sulfuric acid and acetic acid.

Water
H+ + H2O -> H3O+

Sulfuric Acid
H2SO4 + H2O -> H3O+ + HSO4-
HSO4- + H2O -> H3O+ + SO42-

Acetic Acid
CH3COOH + H2O -> H3O+ + CH3COO-

Since every reaction is reversible, there are 8 competing reactions with 8 reaction rate constants in this simple example.  We'll ignore all but two of the reactions. 

We are interested to know the rate of formation of HSO4- and CH3COO-.  The dissociation of sulfuric acid is more energetically favorable than the dissociation of acetic acid (the rate constant is higher).  That means the rate of reaction of sulfuric acid is going to occur more rapidly.  If water is the limiting component in our reaction, we would expect to see sulfuric acid react more than acetic acid.  This is what we can see in chemistry lab.

I hoped this helped.  I tried to think of a very simple reaction that most people have seen before to demonstrate the concept of competing reactions.  It's hard to communicate this kind of thing on a forum.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 10:12:39 AM by Cycle4Fun »
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Offline Cycle4Fun

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2008, 10:31:38 AM »
How far back in history do we need to go before evolution becomes abiogenesis?

Life is: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/life
1. the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally.

The first life would be the first group of chemicals that could repair itself (metabolism), make copies of itself (reproduction) and adapt to the environment (imperfect reproduction as a result of chemical reactions).

I can't get any more specific than that because it is not my field.
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Offline Static

Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2008, 04:11:05 PM »
Maybe a chemist here can give us an example.

Let's consider the simple acid base reactions. 

First, a quick refresher.  pH is the -log[H+].  it measures the concentration of hydrogen or H3O+.  The speed at which a reaction occurs is denoted as kx.  The acid-base reactions I will be describing are all reversible.  This means that the reaction can go back and forth between products and reactants.  At a specific concentration of species the two reactions will have the same rate and the reaction has reached equilibrium.  A reversible reaction also means the reaction has two rate constants.  For simplicities sake I am going to ignore the second reversible reaction.

We'll examine the reaction of water, sulfuric acid and acetic acid.

Water
H+ + H2O -> H3O+

Sulfuric Acid
H2SO4 + H2O -> H3O+ + HSO4-
HSO4- + H2O -> H3O+ + SO42-

Acetic Acid
CH3COOH + H2O -> H3O+ + CH3COO-

Since every reaction is reversible, there are 8 competing reactions with 8 reaction rate constants in this simple example.  We'll ignore all but two of the reactions. 

We are interested to know the rate of formation of HSO4- and CH3COO-.  The dissociation of sulfuric acid is more energetically favorable than the dissociation of acetic acid (the rate constant is higher).  That means the rate of reaction of sulfuric acid is going to occur more rapidly.  If water is the limiting component in our reaction, we would expect to see sulfuric acid react more than acetic acid.  This is what we can see in chemistry lab.

I hoped this helped.  I tried to think of a very simple reaction that most people have seen before to demonstrate the concept of competing reactions.  It's hard to communicate this kind of thing on a forum.


Understood, but I still dont see how one can completely outcompete the other. To my knowledge they just reach another point of equilibrium
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Offline Static

Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2008, 04:21:22 PM »
I still dont see how an inert string of amino acids can "compete" or replicate. I am basically familiar with Miller-Urey, but didnt read into more that the glossing over it recieved in fresh year bio. Did their experiment produce strings of amino acids that could replicate? If so that my first question is retracted. Also web address to good Miller-Urey information site would be appreciated.

I'm not a chemist so I can't give you specific examples, but it is possible to have two chemical reactions going on at the same time, which are "competing" with each other.  For example, the production of L- and R- enantiomers can be considered two distinct reactions.  In the lab, both are produced at the same rate, competing to consume the starting materials.  It is possible for conditions to change (by adding a catalyst, or a laser, or whatever) to tune the production to favor either the L- or R- chirality. 

Google "competing chemical reactions" to find more.  I was hoping to find a case where a mixture of A and B is added to C.  Then A+C->X, and B+C->Y.  The relative amounts of X and Y produced would depend on the competition for C.  Maybe a chemist here can give us an example.


Part of the trouble I have is with chirality.

All amino acid biomolecules with rare exceptions (such as some used in bacterial cell walls) are all left-handed; and with rare exceptions, all sugars, including those in nucleic acids, are right-handed. Those produced in a laboratory are a half left-handed and half right-handed mixture called a racemate. Even in the laboratory, chemists use pre-existing homochirality from a biological source in order to synthesize homochiral compounds. Chiral molecules are dissymmetric—they exist as mirror images of each other. The problem is left-handed sugars and right-handed amino acids can be toxic and prevent abiogenesis. Furthermore, most all enzymes are designed to work only with right-handed sugars and left-handed amino acids. All attempts to solve the chirality problem, including magnetochiral dichroism, have failed.



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Offline Cycle4Fun

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2008, 04:36:14 PM »
Part of the trouble I have is with chirality.

All amino acid biomolecules with rare exceptions (such as some used in bacterial cell walls) are all left-handed; and with rare exceptions, all sugars, including those in nucleic acids, are right-handed. Those produced in a laboratory are a half left-handed and half right-handed mixture called a racemate. Even in the laboratory, chemists use pre-existing homochirality from a biological source in order to synthesize homochiral compounds. Chiral molecules are dissymmetric—they exist as mirror images of each other. The problem is left-handed sugars and right-handed amino acids can be toxic and prevent abiogenesis. Furthermore, most all enzymes are designed to work only with right-handed sugars and left-handed amino acids. All attempts to solve the chirality problem, including magnetochiral dichroism, have failed.

Plagiarism is illegal and dishonest.  The source you used, http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v18/i2/abiogenesis.asp, cited

Pigliucci, M., Where do we come from? A humbling look at the biology of life’s origin, Skeptical Inquirer 23(5):21–27, 1999.

This article published in the Skeptical Inquirer nine years ago.  "This dynamic magazine, published by the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal, tells you what the scientific community knows about claims of the paranormal, as opposed to the sensationalism often presented by the press, television, and movies."
http://www.csicop.org/si/ as found on 11/14/08

This is a source you remotely trust for information?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 04:40:37 PM by Cycle4Fun »
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Offline xphobe

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2008, 04:44:42 PM »
Part of the trouble I have is with chirality.

Please don't sidetrack this thread.  I am well aware of the dominance of the L- enantiomers in amino acids, and contrary to AIG there are some proposed solutions.  The only reason I brought up chirality at all (my mistake perhaps) was to illustrate a system with two competing reactions.  I should have used hydrogen iodide as an example.
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Offline Static

Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2008, 04:49:27 PM »
No its the first one I came to after looking into what I was vaguely trying to remember from years of chem. Although my apologies for not citing my source. Not my research so proper citing should be given when citing is due.

as far a the Skeptical Inquirer goes... never heard of it.

and now for your side, what I posted true or untrue?

I dont mind you telling me that what I posted was BS if it is. I was just researching and thats what I came across. Although internet is not always the best place to research. Plenty of BS out there.

I dont have time validate, I just run it past what I foggily remeber from general chem, ochem, and biochem.

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Offline Static

Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2008, 04:54:11 PM »
Part of the trouble I have is with chirality.

Please don't sidetrack this thread.  I am well aware of the dominance of the L- enantiomers in amino acids, and contrary to AIG there are some proposed solutions.  The only reason I brought up chirality at all (my mistake perhaps) was to illustrate a system with two competing reactions.  I should have used hydrogen iodide as an example.

I dont mind hearing proposed solutions.


Still even in hydrogen iodide does one product ever reach 0 or does it reach a new equilibrium?

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Offline xphobe

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2008, 10:20:32 PM »
First, re hydrogen iodide, the point is that by tuning a pair of UV lasers you can vary the proportions of the results between H2 and I2, and HI+ and e-.  In a competition one outcome doesn't have to equal zero.

Now, re chirality, we have to realize that all current life diverged from a common ancestor.  Any other competing form was gobbled up.  So asking why all amino acids are L- is like asking why all matter around us is Matter, and not Antimatter.  We observe our world to be as it is, because if it were different we would observe that different world and ask why it was the way it was.

I've read theories about why L- predominates.  Maybe light from distant stars was polarized in one particular direction by a cloud of interstellar gas.  Maybe the clay substrate on which the first replicators assembled favored the L- form.

But to claim, as AIG does, that
Quote
The problem is left-handed sugars and right-handed amino acids can be toxic and prevent abiogenesis.

is pure bullsh*t.  Of course right-handed amino acids are toxic now.  They don't "prevent" abiogenesis.  By that time abiogenesis was already underway.

Honestly, if I were you I would pick up anything I get from AIG with long-handled tongs, and place it into the incinerator.  That's how intellectually and morally corrupt they are.
I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is gonna be so pissed when they find out...