Author Topic: Learn About Evolution!  (Read 5584 times)

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Offline Goodkat

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Learn About Evolution!
« on: October 13, 2008, 01:30:10 PM »
***If You Reject Evolution And Decline To Read This Thread After Opening It You Obviously Don't Care About The Truth***

Evolution is the unifying theory of Biology. It details how all of the complex organisms on earth descended from less complex organisms through genetic changes and natural selection. Evolution is supported by almost every field of science, including, but not limited to, Biochemistry, Geology, Paleontology, Ecology, and Nuclear physics. The support for evolution in the scientific community is virtually unanimous, and the controversy over it is purely political, and is almost always motivated by belief in a creation myth advocated by some religion. Apart from solipsism, I am personally certain that the theory of evolution is true, and I believe that the rejection of evolution by so many is due to misinformation, lack of education, and simple misconceptions, and it is my goal to correct these unfortunate circumstances.

I will attempt to give a simple, concise explanation of the theory of evolution:

All living organisms are composed of cells, whose structure and arrangement are determined by a chemical code called DNA. The simplest organisms reproduce by copying themselves, known as asexual reproduction, and their DNA code is copied along with them, however, occasionally there will be a slight error in the copied code which will lead to new and different traits. More complex organisms reproduce sexually, where the DNA codes of two of the organisms are combined, creating a new, unique code with traits from both parents, these traits can be both physical(as in bone structure) or behavioral(as in hibernation ect.). The new traits created by the changes in the code can be harmful, neutral, or beneficial to the survival and reproduction of an organism, this is determined by environmental factors and in sexual reproduction, by behavioral patterns(example: a female peacock will prefer to mate with a male possessing brighter and more vibrant feathers). The organisms which develop harmful traits will become extinct, and the organisms which develop beneficial traits will multiply, and eventually become a new species. This process, after being repeated for billions of years, has created the organisms which can be seen today. Evolution does not encompass the origin of the universe, solar system, or the initial origin of life.

If anyone has any questions or scientific problems with evolution to present, please post them here. Also, if I made an error in my explanation, or if you have any suggestions to improve upon it, please PM me.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 06:30:42 PM by Goodkat »

Offline PingTheServer

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2008, 06:05:26 PM »
this reminds me...I was watching the "why do people laugh at creationists" videos on youtube...when it got to the Ben Stein section, I was really taken back by how ludacrous his claims were about what he thought evolution was.  For someone to make a psuedo-documentary about the subject, you would at least think they would try to make themselves a subject matter expert before trying to thumb his nose at the entire educated world.

I don't know if THunderf00t reads these forums, but if you do...thanks for taking the time to make those videos.

Offline Sota

Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2008, 09:23:08 PM »
this reminds me...I was watching the "why do people laugh at creationists" videos on youtube...when it got to the Ben Stein section, I was really taken back by how ludacrous his claims were about what he thought evolution was.  For someone to make a psuedo-documentary about the subject, you would at least think they would try to make themselves a subject matter expert before trying to thumb his nose at the entire educated world.

I don't know if THunderf00t reads these forums, but if you do...thanks for taking the time to make those videos.

...lightning striking a mud puddle...

If he doesn't understand it, he could at least come up with a different simile.

Offline PingTheServer

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2008, 09:38:09 PM »
this reminds me...I was watching the "why do people laugh at creationists" videos on youtube...when it got to the Ben Stein section, I was really taken back by how ludacrous his claims were about what he thought evolution was.  For someone to make a psuedo-documentary about the subject, you would at least think they would try to make themselves a subject matter expert before trying to thumb his nose at the entire educated world.

I don't know if THunderf00t reads these forums, but if you do...thanks for taking the time to make those videos.

...lightning striking a mud puddle...

If he doesn't understand it, he could at least come up with a different simile.

Or at least look at the Miller-Urey experiment that consistantly demonstrates you can get amino acids and proteins from organic material when put in the suspected early earth atmostpheric conditions.

It's like the guy didnt even TRY to educate himself...which is ironic given the movie he put out.  He had an agenda, made the movie about his agenda...and didnt even attempt to enlighten himself.

Offline bahramthered

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2008, 06:47:50 AM »
Because he thinks he's facing a ridiculous theory so he has no need to learn it's lies.  ::)

You know, like how you feel about creationism proofs.  No. Not extreme enough.  ??? Maybe how you feel about fixed new, erh fox noise programming.  ::) No still not right. Ahh. Perfect:

 Like how you feel about Alfrady's "proofs" :o

Offline Goodkat

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2008, 10:59:29 AM »
Like how you feel about Alfrady's "proofs" :o
Absolutely not. I have pointed out critical errors in each of the proofs I have seen from him, and he just responded with "I have proved you wrong" or "I have proven Allah" or "I have proven Islam", instead of recanting the error or showing why it is not an error.

Offline bahramthered

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2008, 02:24:52 PM »
I said his proof's, not his logic toward proving them.

I'll clarify. The level of increduaility I've seen toward evolution frequently matches of level towrads Alfrady's proofs. No the argument behind them or the "evidence".

Offline Goodkat

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2008, 02:33:41 PM »
I said his proof's, not his logic toward proving them.

I'll clarify. The level of increduaility I've seen toward evolution frequently matches of level towrads Alfrady's proofs. No the argument behind them or the "evidence".
I will admit that I approach his "proovs" expecting them to be a load, but I learned that from experience.

Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2008, 01:03:01 PM »
I think we all did. AFadly is a past master at the Argument From Exhaustion. I don't know why he's permitted to continue posting here. I think it's long past the point where you have to call a troll a troll.
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Offline JackWhitehead1

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2008, 01:13:27 PM »
I don't think he's purposely trolling though.
He actually believes what he says makes sense!
And that's why I like him being here, because one day, he has to realise that he's gone wrong somewhere.
Besides, he's fun :)

Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2008, 01:16:26 PM »
After fifteen months of this nonsense, I personally find him infuriating. He poisons every thread he posts in. But hey, each to their own.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2008, 01:57:38 PM by Deus ex Machina »
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Offline PingTheServer

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2008, 07:10:53 PM »
I don't think he's purposely trolling though.
He actually believes what he says makes sense!
And that's why I like him being here, because one day, he has to realise that he's gone wrong somewhere.
Besides, he's fun :)

Agreed.  As argumentatively inept people like him and Scott Facehead are, we really do need them to keep teh forums lively...and silly as it is, to help us continue to question and challenge what we think ourselves.

Offline Goodkat

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2008, 08:26:02 PM »
I would like to ask a favor of you all. Since I have yet to get a response on this thread from anyone who rejects evolution, please direct them here.

Online Azdgari

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2008, 08:27:24 PM »
Goodkat, I doubt you'll get any.  People who reject evolution tend not to try to inform themselves about it, and that's what your thread requires of them.
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Offline xphobe

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2008, 12:58:09 AM »
^^ agreed.  The Dunning-Kruger Effect, as you mentioned in the previous thread.

By the way I found that link fascinating Goodkat.  So... if incompetent people grossly overestimate themselves, and highly competent people tend to underestimate themselves, does that mean people who think they are marginally competent are accurate?  I'm one of those. :)
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Offline bahramthered

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2008, 06:24:38 AM »
I've seen some good arguments for evolution used against Alfrady. Even if we never break him, we might get a lurker or two.


On the plus side at least Alfrady sticks mostly to his own threads.

Offline moG

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2008, 07:01:43 PM »
***If You Reject Evolution And Decline To Read This Thread After Opening It You Obviously Don't Care About The Truth***

Evolution is the unifying theory of Biology. It details how all of the complex organisms on earth descended from less complex organisms through genetic changes and natural selection. Evolution is supported by almost every field of science, including, but not limited to, Biochemistry, Geology, Paleontology, Ecology, and Nuclear physics. The support for evolution in the scientific community is virtually unanimous, and the controversy over it is purely political, and is almost always motivated by belief in a creation myth advocated by some religion. Apart from solipsism, I am personally certain that the theory of evolution is true, and I believe that the rejection of evolution by so many is due to misinformation, lack of education, and simple misconceptions, and it is my goal to correct these unfortunate circumstances.

I will attempt to give a simple, concise explanation of the theory of evolution:

All living organisms are composed of cells, whose structure and arrangement are determined by a chemical code called DNA. The simplest organisms reproduce by copying themselves, known as asexual reproduction, and their DNA code is copied along with them, however, occasionally there will be a slight error in the copied code which will lead to new and different traits. More complex organisms reproduce sexually, where the DNA codes of two of the organisms are combined, creating a new, unique code with traits from both parents, these traits can be both physical(as in bone structure) or behavioral(as in hibernation ect.). The new traits created by the changes in the code can be harmful, neutral, or beneficial to the survival and reproduction of an organism, this is determined by environmental factors and in sexual reproduction, by behavioral patterns(example: a female peacock will prefer to mate with a male possessing brighter and more vibrant feathers). The organisms which develop harmful traits will become extinct, and the organisms which develop beneficial traits will multiply, and eventually become a new species. This process, after being repeated for billions of years, has created the organisms which can be seen today. Evolution does not encompass the origin of the universe, solar system, or the initial origin of life.

If anyone has any questions or scientific problems with evolution to present, please post them here. Also, if I made an error in my explanation, or if you have any suggestions to improve upon it, please PM me.

The genetic code is the four-character digital code by which a cell's DNA stores information—the detailed instructions for assembling proteins. This 'language' is composed of some 3 billion genetic letters.The code is properly a language because it meets the following criteria :it has a coding system, correct spelling, grammar, semantics and an intended purpose.The DNA molecule carries the genetic language, but the language itself is independent of its carrier. The same genetic information can be written in a book, stored in a compact disk or sent over the Internet, and yet the quality or content of the message is not changed by changing the means of conveying it.
The instructions found in the genetic code control the physical life processes of the creature from conception until it's demise.
The language is independent of the carrier.How did that much information get inside a single egg and sperm?

1Co 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Goodkat

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2008, 07:12:05 PM »
How did that much information get inside a single egg and sperm?
Well, considering that the code is a strand of molecules, which are incredibly small, and the code has 4 basic characters, instead of 2, it is quite easy to compress that much information into such tiny structures. Here is one of my personal favorite videos that can help you to better understand the form and function of DNA, prepare to have your mind blown.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8NHcQesYl8[/youtube]

Offline xphobe

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2008, 08:06:04 PM »
How did that much information get inside a single egg and sperm?
Well, considering that the code is a strand of molecules, which are incredibly small, and the code has 4 basic characters, instead of 2, it is quite easy to compress that much information into such tiny structures.

And that's not even counting epigenetics.  We're only now becoming aware of how the DNA sequence itself is only scratching the surface of what's available as inputs to the developing organism.

The layout of the Amazon River is not encoded in every drop of rain that falls, yet it has a definite (huge) structure, which follows logically and causally from the falling of those raindrops.
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Offline moG

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2008, 08:21:01 PM »
How did that much information get inside a single egg and sperm?
Well, considering that the code is a strand of molecules, which are incredibly small, and the code has 4 basic characters, instead of 2, it is quite easy to compress that much information into such tiny structures. Here is one of my personal favorite videos that can help you to better understand the form and function of DNA, prepare to have your mind blown.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8NHcQesYl8[/youtube]

Well, that was certainly a well made and interesting video!
However the origin of the genetic code was not addressed.Surely you know that it could not have self originated within the life form?
1Co 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Goodkat

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2008, 08:39:34 PM »
Well, that was certainly a well made and interesting video!
However the origin of the genetic code was not addressed.Surely you know that it could not have self originated within the life form?
Oh, I didn't think you were asking about the origin of DNA. Evolution deals with the way DNA changes, not how it came about, that falls within the realm of Abiogenesis, which has several hypotheses.

Offline xphobe

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2008, 11:30:25 PM »
If Miller and Urey got 22 amino acids after running their little experiment for a week, just imagine what would happen if we ran the entire planet for say, 100 million years.  That's like five billion times as long, in a container 1.3*10^21 times as big.  I don't know about anyone else, but my mind has a hard time getting around numbers of that magnitude.

Then factor in the next 3 billion years for evolution to do its thing, and I'd be surprised if the complete works of Shakespeare didn't pop up eventually.  Oh wait - they did, didn't they!
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Offline moG

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2008, 06:50:55 AM »
If Miller and Urey got 22 amino acids after running their little experiment for a week, just imagine what would happen if we ran the entire planet for say, 100 million years.  That's like five billion times as long, in a container 1.3*10^21 times as big.  I don't know about anyone else, but my mind has a hard time getting around numbers of that magnitude.

Then factor in the next 3 billion years for evolution to do its thing, and I'd be surprised if the complete works of Shakespeare didn't pop up eventually.  Oh wait - they did, didn't they!


While you may not be innumerate,you don't seem to have a good grasp on probability theory.
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Online Azdgari

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2008, 06:55:14 AM »
Quote
While you may not be innumerate,you don't seem to have a good grasp on probability theory.

If you have enough education on the subject to actually be able to make such a claim, then you should also be able to explain where xphobe has gone wrong.  You can, right?
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Offline moG

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2008, 10:51:02 PM »
Quote
While you may not be innumerate,you don't seem to have a good grasp on probability theory.

If you have enough education on the subject to actually be able to make such a claim, then you should also be able to explain where xphobe has gone wrong.  You can, right?

I think so...Where Xphobe has erred is in thinking that abiogenesis and the subsequent evolution of life forms can be inferred by simple mathematical calculations. His premise was the "fact" that the Miller - Ulrey experiment which had a time span of one week and yielded 22 amino acids would (given an extremely long time frame and a world sized laboratory) indubitably continue on a linear path ultimately producing a living organism.That, is sloppy thinking.Making some amino acids and mixing them together will never generate a living organism.
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Offline xphobe

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2008, 11:10:49 PM »
I didn't say "indubitably".  I said "imagine".  How's your imagination?

Let me ask you this: IF humans could cause life to appear in a laboratory, would you renounce your god?

edit: and another question -- Who, in your mind, is the Author of Probability?
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Offline moG

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2008, 11:34:50 PM »
I didn't say "indubitably".  I said "imagine".  How's your imagination?

Let me ask you this: IF humans could cause life to appear in a laboratory, would you renounce your god?

edit: and another question -- Who, in your mind, is the Author of Probability?

Since humans were created by God, in His image, why would we not learn how to structure a life form?

Gee whiz! I don't know...... Santa Claus? The Tooth Fairy? You?
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Offline xphobe

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2008, 11:40:37 PM »
Since humans were created by God, in His image, why would we not learn how to structure a life form?

In other words, your answer to my question is "No, I wouldn't renounce God if humans were able to create life in a laboratory."

So would it be reasonable to assume that you don't have a problem with evolution or even abiogenesis per se, because God could have made those things happen?
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Offline moG

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Re: Learn About Evolution!
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2008, 12:16:53 AM »
Since humans were created by God, in His image, why would we not learn how to structure a life form?

In other words, your answer to my question is "No, I wouldn't renounce God if humans were able to create life in a laboratory."

So would it be reasonable to assume that you don't have a problem with evolution or even abiogenesis per se, because God could have made those things happen?


Correct. Humans can accomplish that which God gives them the ability.

I have a problem with the word "evolution", because it, by definition, assumes an upward progression of the creature from a simple to a decidedly more complex creature. I just don't see any bona fide examples of this happening in nature. This observation thus nullifies abiogenesis as defined by today's theoretical models. What I do see is lateral differentiation of the creature. One ancestral dog-wolf differentiating into many breeds.
btw I have no problem whatsoever with aeons of time as pertaining to the age of the earth .
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