Does God not healing amputee's put a stumble in your walk?

[Aaron123]

You should know - you're living in it - it only makes a difference to you

So which world DO we live in?  One where god exists, or one where god does NOT exist?  I ask because I have yet to see from you how I'm suppose to tell the difference.

[ParkingPlaces]

Lets see. God doesn't care about our bodies unless we sin in them. Then it's a big deal.

Got it.

[ledhead]

You are free to believe whatever you want.  Proof will always be subjective.  What proves something to me might not prove something to somebody else & vice versa.  This will always be the case.

Belief in God's existence is subjective b/c everybody has to decide for themselves.  You don't have to believe.  I've never said anybody has to believe in God.  It doesn't matter to me & it doesn't even matter to God.  The difference is only felt by the individual during the course of their life, which according to my belief does not end w/ the death of the body. I can't prove that to you either & I still don't need to.  You can believe whatever you want.

Believing in God helps some people do things they wouldn't think they could do w/o that belief.  Not believing in God can do the same thing for people.  Religions usually misrepresent what God is for their own purposes, but still plenty of the people who follow those religions benefit from the belief in God or whatever else they believe.  That's spirit.  Even if you don't believe in God you have a spirit of your own, maybe you call it your ego or your personality, or your will.  Same thing different names.

I know I can believe whatever I want.  Nobody can stop me from doing that.  I want what I believe to be true.  I don't want to fool myself.  I've tried living my life both ways over the years.  I've considered all my options & in my experience believing God exist does me more good then not believing - I know it's too my benefit b/c I've experienced it both ways.

In order to believe it w/o thinking I'm fooling myself I had to find a way to convince myself that it's true.  To do that I had to make my mind up about what God is & what God isn't or what's true & what isn't - regardless of whether or not I can prove it to anyone else & regardless of what anybody else believes.  I know I can prove it to myself. 

I know I don't need the whole picture just enough to convince myself - something that I can live w/ - a God that I can respect - not worship & still be who I am.  It took a while but I did it. 

It doesn't really make any difference whether anybody else believes what I do or not - but talking about it does help convince me about what i really believe more than not talking about it does. Whether people think I'm crazy or delusional or stupid doesn't matter.  I know exactly who & what I am & that's all I really need to know now - there is no doubt that I know that. 

Knowing God exist only strengthens who I am.  I am not God but I am part of God exactly the same as everybody else - yet different.  Faith in myself is faith in God b/c when I forget to have faith in myself my faith in God does help me. 

Don't try to tell me that's preachy - b/c I'm not saying anybody else has to believe what I believe.  Believe whatever you want.  Do whatever you want.  The proof is in the pudding & I know I like pudding.

Parking Places - God doesn't care about bodies & God doesn't care about sin either b/c sin is something man made up to keep people in line.  Some people think they need that.

God's will is that God's Son be innocent forever.  We all are God's Son collectively.  There is no sin.  You can believe in sin or not believe in sin just like you can believe or not believe in God & your choice will effect your life & either way who & what you really are is always safe.

You must decide what you believe - there's no choice in that.  You decide w/ every thought you let linger in your mind.

I understand if you think that's preachy but I don't think it is

[pianodwarf]

I didn't say it wasn't energy.

Are you saying that it is energy?

[Zankuu]

ledhead,

I've read through all your posts like you suggested. It seems that you have chosen to use Yahweh as a foundation to mold and apply your personal morality and ethics to. And I assume you chose him because he is the god that you were subjected to the most during your childhood. This is self projection as god (SPAG) and we see it all the time. When I was a Christian I was guilty of this as well. If you aren't familiar with the term, here is a quick definition from RationalWiki: "SPAG is the process of psychological projection in which believers redefine or anticipate the wishes of their god to suit their personal beliefs, needs, and sensibilities. In support of SPAG, believers cherry pick from scripture and devise a belief system reflecting their own personal needs and desires."

I know I can believe whatever I want. Nobody can stop me from doing that. I want what I believe to be true.  I don't want to fool myself. I've tried living my life both ways over the years.  I've considered all my options & in my experience believing God exist does me more good then not believing - I know it's too my benefit b/c I've experienced it both ways.

In order to believe it w/o thinking I'm fooling myself I had to find a way to convince myself that it's true. To do that I had to make my mind up about what God is & what God isn't or what's true & what isn't - regardless of whether or not I can prove it to anyone else & regardless of what anybody else believes.  I know I can prove it to myself.

Let's examine what you said.

This is what you wrote:
This is what I read:

1. Believing God exists does me more good then not believing.
    The thought of no afterlife frightens me, so living forever would be beneficial to me.

2. I want what I believe to be true.
    I need to be right because NOT existing is NOT comforting.

3. I don't want to fool myself.
    I don't want to realize I'm fooling myself because I need to believe that I will live forever.

4. In order to believe it w/o thinking I'm fooling myself I had to find a way to convince myself that it's true.
    I had to employ mental gymnastics in order to deceive myself without being aware of it.

If you find me to be incorrect on any of those, then please point it out and explain why. But I assume you'll take issue with them all. Am I wrong thinking that death plays a serious part in your beliefs?

[ledhead]

I believe what I believe about God based on what I know is true.  I've studied enough of what's been said about God & against God to make up my own mind about it.  It's got nothing more to do w/ what I was subjected to during my childhood other than being taught there is a God.  Christians don't want to hear what I'm saying God is any more than atheist do.  I must care to some degree about it all otherwise I wouldn't be here.  Discussing it only helps me decide what I really believe.
I know I can believe what I want.  Everybody convinces themselves about what they believe - you do it your way I do it mine.  I don't have a problem w/ that & neither does my God.  I don't care what you think about me b/c of it - but I do care about what you think b/c that's what helps me understand what I really think.  It strengthens my belief b/c I know I'm still the one who gets to decide no matter what I decide.

That's what you read b/c that's what you think - not what I think.  You're the one convincing yourself that's what I mean.  I know what I mean.  I mean exactly what I said - there's no ambiguity there.

Death doesn't play a serious part in my beliefs at all.  I don't belief death is the end of life.  I believe life is stronger than death - that belief makes death meaningless.  That doesn't frighten me in the least.

Why should I believe something I know I don't have to believe when I know I can believe something better?  You can't prove death is the end of your life - you just believe it & you back your belief up by convincing yourself w/ what you believe is true.  When it comes down to it all you have is theories & all I have is ideas. 

Of course I like my ideas better than your theories.  Why wouldn't I - I know I can.

[Zankuu]

I believe what I believe about God based on what I know is true.  I've studied enough of what's been said about God & against God to make up my own mind about it.  It's got nothing more to do w/ what I was subjected to during my childhood other than being taught there is a God.

Your belief in a personal god is based on self projection. He's uniquely tailored for you, by you. Take notice that everything your personal god wants from you are also things you want. Things that you label good or bad are also things your god finds good or bad. Your personal god's moral code is directly linked to yours. Coincidence? Make the connection.

Everybody convinces themselves about what they believe - you do it your way I do it mine.

My way of figuring out what is true or untrue is by the use of honesty and healthy skepticism. What's yours?

I don't have a problem w/ that & neither does my God.

Of course your god wouldn't. Coincidence?

That's what you read b/c that's what you think - not what I think.  You're the one convincing yourself that's what I mean.  I know what I mean.  I mean exactly what I said - there's no ambiguity there.

That's the conclusion I'm currently sitting with. But if you can provide a convincing argument that it isn't true, I would consider it.

Death doesn't play a serious part in my beliefs at all.  I don't belief death is the end of life.  I believe life is stronger than death - that belief makes death meaningless.  That doesn't frighten me in the least.

That is my point. You aren't afraid of death because you believe you'll live in an eternal paradise. Imagine there isn't an afterlife and when you die, the ride is over. How would that make you feel? Would you be able to accept it?

Why should I believe something I know I don't have to believe when I know I can believe something better?  You can't prove death is the end of your life - you just believe it & you back your belief up by convincing yourself w/ what you believe is true.  When it comes down to it all you have is theories & all I have is ideas.

Uhh... because regardless if there is a better option you should believe in reality. Just because I have the option to believe there is a cozy little afterlife waiting for me, I'm not just going to believe it. Doing so would be willingly giving myself to a delusion, and I refuse to do that.

And no, I don't just believe death is the end because I tell myself "There is no afterlife!" ad infinitum. I don't believe in an afterlife because there is no evidence for one. From what is currently known, life ends when brain activity ceases. No brain activity = no consciousness = no self awareness = return to default position of nonexistence. And there is no more evidence for a "soul" than there is for ghosts, demons, or the invisible orbiting teapot.

[velkyn]

I mean I have wondered these things because atheists have brought them up but my uncle was actually an amputee. He lost one of his legs and the last years of his life he was on dialysis and in a wheelchair but he died a Christian/Catholic. He still kept his faith in God. And to the people who struggle with this they'd ask then why would God allow it or how could He still believe in God?

Because he was desperate and afraid of hell.  Many Christians are, sadly enough.

Sometimes you have to see that this life is temporary. This isn't all there is, God has something else for us out there. And yeah it sounds like "false belief" probably to some or "false hope" but hope keep's people hanging on...

which is amusing since your JC evidently didnt' think that life was so temporary to not do miracles, all of that raisign people from the dead, healing, etc. Why all of the sudden, do Christians need to excsue God for doing nothing?  Oh, yes, because the stories in teh bible are just that, myths and the whole thing is nonsense. 

And people can say this is all "subjective" and that there's no proof, well there isn't proof but believing and hanging on God's Word and what He promise and who He said He is

And all theists claim the same thing with no evidence.  Each pointlessly hanges on every word and promise.  And they die because of this false hope. 

[johnbhoy76]

Zankuu - you'll have to find my other post for an answer to that b/c my explanation of what God is preachy to some people

Johnbhoy - God does not cure cancer or save babies trapped under rubble.  God does not get involved in human affairs unless God wants to.  Man was given dominion over the Earth - not over God - if God decides to get involved God gets involved but God doesn't let us know when where or why.

You see my problem with that is that is almost as if there is no god.

For example I could replace the word "God" with "my lucky rabbits foot" and it would all make the same amount of sense.

My Lucky rabbits foot does not cure cancer or save babies trapped under rubble.  My Lucky rabbits foot does not get involved in human affairs unless my lucky rabbits foot wants to.  Man was given dominion over the Earth - not over my lucky rabbits foot - if my lucky rabbits foot decides to get involved my lucky rabbits foot gets involved but my lucky rabbits foot doesn't let us know when where or why.

In fact you could replace the word "god" with anything and the outcome would be the same. Sometimes the great wizard of Oz cures cancer but only if he feels like it and he never lets us know when he's done it or when or where or why etc...

Also what would be different in the above scenario if there was no god, or no wizard or no rabbits foot? How would things differ?  People would still get sick and some would live and some would die. Accidents would still happen and some people would survive against ridiculous odds

But still at the end of the day we'd be waiting on my rabbits foot, your god and the wizard to re-grow just one persons severed limbs!

[LadyLucy]

ledhead, be honest with me here, and I know you want to believe what you believe. I respect you. But I have to ask: Do you have an emotional attachment to God? And no, not the type that fundies have in which they claim, "I have a relationship with God, it's more than a religion!"

Like... An attachment. Like an older kid holding onto a teddy bear they had for a long time, but they take it with them everywhere they go anyway, because it's like... A security teddy bear. Here, I'll definite it for you to make it more clear:

at·tach·ment
? ?/??tæt?m?nt/ [uh-tach-muhnt]

2.  a feeling that binds one to a person, thing, cause, ideal, or the like; devotion; regard: a fond attachment to his cousin; a profound attachment to the cause of peace.

I'm asking this based on this err "molding" you are doing. Sounds like something I used to do.

[ledhead]

Lady - no more than you do & not any less either. 

I don't ever bring up the subject of God in my daily life anymore unless somebody else brings it up first.  When I was deciding what I wanted to believe - how I wanted to live my life - what would do me the most good - sometimes I did. 

I didn't even think about God for most of my adult life - I had other shit I wanted to do.  I took a more existentialist view & decided in college that it didn't matter.  I never had a reason to talk about God.  The idea came back up in my mid-thirties when I came across some stuff I hadn't heard before & then I started looking into the idea again.

I'd say I have an emotional attachment to wanting to be as free as I can be while I'm here.  I do what i want almost all the time.  I rarely do something I don't want unless somebody asks & even then it depends what it is. I've been told I'm a nice guy by enough people over the years to believe.  I don't have any interest in hurting anyone else & I'm not afraid to stand up when my freedom is being denied.

There are somethings that I know are true.  There isn't scientific proof of them but that doesn't stop them from being true.  So why can't God be the same.  It doesn't really matter to me if God exist or not - I still have to get up every morning.  I lived w/o thinking about God for long enough to know i can do it - but sometimes the belief proves to be helpful & sometimes it pisses me off.

I know my mom always has my best interest at heart - but she still manages to piss me off every now & again.  I don't hold that against her.  I'm definitely emotional attached to my parents & anyone I love.  Emotional attachments are fine.  I got my emotions under control well enough.  I know my mind can control my emotions if I train it to do so.

I can still have compassion - but empathy does not require me to join in the suffering as Christians seem to think I must.

Here's a quote attributed to Jesus but you can substitute any other name you want - it won't change the truth of it for me.

"Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."

Now different people can interpret what that really means & whether or not they think it's true.  How can it be proven?  You tell me.

I've said it many times on here - it doesn't really matter if you believe in God or not except to you - if you think it helps you believe - if you think not believing helps you then don't.

I know I don't have to.  You can all go about your lives w/o ever bringing it up again - but you obviously must like talking about it for a reason.  I understand you wanting to counter act what Christians are teaching.  i don't agree w/ all of that either.

Why make it so complicated? 

Neither side will ever prove they are right & it will still never matter to anyone but yourself.

[LadyLucy]

I do not want to make this a complicated situation. IMO, you are making it that way, based on your posts... Which are very interesting, yet at the same time, I can't help but shake my head and say, "But if you believed in God, you wouldn't do that, so what the hell?". In other words, you have to make up your mind sometime, ledlead. I know you are happy this way, I'm sure you are indifferent about God's presence and all. I can tell you are an Agnostic Theist, which is err, "fine." You just like to sit on the fence. I don't really want to change your stance by making you rationalize things further right now, but just think about one last thing: Why do you believe your god to be the one true god out of all gods that are out there? Why not be part of all religions, since you'd rather feel secure knowing that you are going to the afterlife?

Personally, there is no afterlife. It's very simple. Your existence and state of mind stop when your brain stops. Everything stops. You simply die, and thinking of an afterlife to me is just a fairytale to tell the kiddies that they will be safe when they die. Obviously, I'd tell them the actual truth as to what happens when they die, but if that's what they want to believe as a silly kid thing, that's fine, too, just like the whole Santa Claus and the North Pole thing. It doesn't make me a less happy person to know that eventually, I will die, and so will everyone else. Thinking that they, or myself, are going to be in a better place is silly, and a bit insulting, IMO, because saying it's God's plan means their whole entire lives where planned out, only a pawn in this plane of existence.

I feel safer to know that when I die, I'll know I had a good life, I tried to live it to the best of my capabilities, I enjoyed the ride, and that I'll forever be rid of suffering and finally rest in peace. Being immortal is not something humans would like, because it is human nature to get bored and even go crazy if something like that were to happen. Humans, and all living organisms, are meant to die. It's the proper order of things. An afterlife sounds like a nightmare. IMO, if there were hell, being immortal would be the punishment.

[velkyn]

There are somethings that I know are true.  There isn't scientific proof of them but that doesn't stop them from being true.  So why can't God be the same.  It doesn't really matter to me if God exist or not - I still have to get up every morning.  I lived w/o thinking about God for long enough to know i can do it - but sometimes the belief proves to be helpful & sometimes it pisses me off.

aka I want to be a special snowflake and have magic secret knowledge. 

[screwtape]

There are somethings that I know are true.  There isn't scientific proof of them but that doesn't stop them from being true.  So why can't God be the same. 

Because god is categorically different than the other things you are talking about.  Based on your other posts and PMs, the things you are talking about are subjective judgments.  "Love is better than hate", "I like peanut butter" etc.  Those are subjective judgments.  Proof is not required.  But the existence of a being - whether is it a cat, an android, a person or a god - is an objective fact.  And if you want anyone else to believe it is true, you should expect to provide some kind of evidence.  It is not unreasonable for people to ask for it.

You are personally free to believe whatever you want.  But do not expect anyone else to just blindly accept your claims and not challenge you when it comes to objective facts.  Do not expect people to not mock and ridicule you for believing these ridiculous things without any justification.  Don't be like Dave.

[johnbhoy76]

Ledhead - If it doesn't matter to you wether god exists or not.

It doesn't really matter to me if God exist or not

If you don't care about wether the things you believe are true or false etc...

Then I have to ask why on earth are you wasting your time discussing & defending them.

If the things you believe do not actually matter then who gives a shit? Also if your beliefs are so unimportant to you to the extent that you don't even care if they are true then it seems very arrogant of you to expect anyone to take you or your beleifs seriously

Why are you bothering to discuss it if you don't care?

[RaymondKHessel]

Woah. Let's back the train up.

It just now dawns on me that nobody has mentioned this... Perhaps because the OP was a straight donkey punch to the brain...

But what the hell is up with the topic title lol?

[Vivisectus]

Leadhead, in your philosophy there is no value difference between opinions, as in the end you hold that nothing can be asserted at all with any degree of certainty.

This is rather silly, because then you would have no reason to object to me setting fire to your house. The position that I should not do so because you would not like it is, after all, just an opinion, one we cannot prove, and one where everyone is absolutely free to make up their own mind.

Generally, when confronted with this, people say that this only applies to god and religious feelings, and that there IS a value difference between opinions outside of that. But this is only valid if your beliefs do not influence your decision making processes in any way.

The problem is, they do. People make decisions based on their religious beliefs all the time.

This makes for a very skewed situation - you judge me based on your religious beliefs, but I have no way of challenging that, because you can glibly reply that it is all just opinion anyway and that there are no value differences between them.

I find that sort of laisses-faire philosophy a bit cowardly. It releases you of all responsibility and allows you to hide behind a cloud of vague mysticisms and makes sure that you never, ever have to explain why your idea is a good one.

[SOI]

The question of "Why won't God Heal Amputees" does not "put" a stumble in my walk.

Luke 4:25-27
25"But I say to you in truth, there were many widows in Israel (AA)in the days of Elijah, when the sky was shut up for three years and six months, when a great famine came over all the land;

 26and yet Elijah was sent to none of them, but (AB)only to Zarephath, in the land of (AC)Sidon, to a woman who was a widow.

 27"And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, but (AD)only Naaman the Syrian."

Your hearing has become dull, and you make it difficult to return to him and be healed.

[SOI]

You say
"I feel safer to know that when I die, I'll know I had a good life, I tried to live it to the best of my capabilities, I enjoyed the ride, and that I'll forever be rid of suffering and finally rest in peace. Being immortal is not something humans would like, because it is human nature to get bored and even go crazy if something like that were to happen. Humans, and all living organisms, are meant to die. It's the proper order of things. An afterlife sounds like a nightmare. IMO, if there were hell, being immortal would be the punishment."

But you don't have to die. And it's your choice to live.

Humans who desire, peace, will never again learn war, people will not rise up against each other anymore, the weak will be strong, and He will remove there yoke from them.

[Azdgari]

SOI, we've heard the sermon before.  What we lack is a reason to take it seriously.

[pianodwarf]

Humans who desire, peace, will never again learn war, people will not rise up against each other anymore, the weak will be strong, and He will remove there yoke from them.

[velkyn]

SOI,

If you'd like to exchange bible verses, how about where god says that he intentionally "deafens" people so that some will never hear how to be saved?  What a good god you obey, one that intentionally damns some people who have no choice in the matter.   

[LadyLucy]

Next Theist, please. I'm bored and the sermon sucks. The Asian priest at my old Catholic church had better sermons, plus he was funny. What? A priest can't be funny while getting people closer to YHWH? Anyway, the metaphors and cryptic statements are not impressive.

0/10