The Best Evidence I've Got for God

[Gnu Ordure]

William:

Further to what has already been said about Goldilocks, our dependency on Goldilocks parameters is EVOLVED!  It may look like our environment is perfectly matched to our requirements, but the reverse is true - it's because we evolved an optimal fit to what our environment offers - and that changes over time.

I understand this, but evolution wouldn't have taken place if there was no environment to evolve in - first there has to be baryonic matter, and stars, and planets... and the formation of these depends on narrow parameters.

[Nam]

To the OP: if you can't present a sufficient amount of critical thinking from yourself as to your opinion on the subject than how are we to evaluate what you consider to be "evidence" as being anything more than what it is?

You're giving other peoples opinion(s) -- not your own.  However, if you state that they are of your opinion that is just a scapegoat to voidville.

-Nam

[William]

I understand this, but evolution wouldn't have taken place if there was no environment to evolve in - first there has to be baryonic matter, and stars, and planets... and the formation of these depends on narrow parameters.

Well that is a rather pesky point your raise Gnu  - certainly making me think

What is the implication?  That somebody or something (a god) set up the "narrow parameters" before or during the big bang?

Why can't the "narrow parameters" be just the automatic natural state in the quantum world when something pops out of nothing?  Why shouldn't a cricket ball striking batsman's helmet not make a freaking scary "kerpunk" noise?

If we put an intelligent being on the job setting up "narrow parameters" in the big bang, then our next problem becomes: What caused this god and how did it evolve?

I think we're better off sticking to the problem we already have - figuring out the big bang and the reasons it happened.  The distracting Goldibollocks thought process is creationist thinking no matter how far back we try to push it - evidence suggests creationism leads to nothing useful.

And from a theist point of view I think it still means that Genesis creation ala biblegod is trash can material because we're accepting evolution.  Genesis leaves too many facts of evolution out and leaves too many bronze age bumpluck inaccuracies in for it to be a credible metaphorical account of the ascent of man from single celled organisms (and just basic chemistry before that.)

[Gnu Ordure]

Well that is a rather pesky point your raise Gnu  - certainly making me think   

Sorry about that. Feel free to minus 1 me. 

What is the implication? That somebody or something (a god) set up the "narrow parameters" before or during the big bang?

The facts are there, they require an explanation. Science is working on it.

The distracting Goldibollocks thought process is creationist thinking no matter how far back we try to push it   

I disagree.

I understand that the Goldilocks question has been enthusiastically embraced by creationists - with them jumping straight to the creationist answer, of course. But the question is still worth asking, why do the dimensionless physical constants have the values they do? And could they be different?

Don't ask me; I'm a gnu.

But you can find an overview of the question in Paul Davies' The Goldilocks Enigma, 2007. From wiki:

{The book} reviews the current state of the fine tuning debate in detail, and concludes by enumerating the following responses to that debate:

1. The absurd universe

Our universe just happens to be the way it is.
 
2. The unique universe
 
There is a deep underlying unity in physics which necessitates the universe being the way it is. Some Theory of Everything will explain why the various features of the Universe must have exactly the values that we see.

3. The multiverse

Multiple Universes exist, having all possible combinations of characteristics, and we inevitably find ourselves within a Universe that allows us to exist.

4. Creationism
 
A creator designed the Universe with the purpose of supporting complexity and the emergence of Intelligence.

5. The life principle

There is an underlying principle that constrains the universe to evolve towards life and mind.
 
6. The self-explaining universe

A closed explanatory or causal loop: "perhaps only universes with a capacity for consciousness can exist." This is Wheeler's Participatory Anthropic Principle (PAP).

7. The fake universe

We live inside a virtual reality simulation.

Do you have a preferred answer, William? I guess most people here would go for 2 or 6. Being a pantheist, I tend towards 5, but that in turn raises teleological questions...

Anyway, it's an interesting read.

Or, you could read Just Six Numbers, The Deep Forces That Shape the Universe, by Martin Rees, 2000.

Rees is a Catholic, Davies I'm not sure about - but neither of them are creationists, and they're both capable of distingushing between belief and fact. And they're both respected scientists.

Gnu.

PS Sorry William, I wasn't condescendingly suggesting that you ought to go and read some books, just trying to demonstrate that the Goldilocks question is worth addressing. Penrose, Hawking and Weinberg have also written about it. It's a good question.
 

[William]

 Gnu, I'm going with response #2 until somebody shows me a good reason not to.  The others are too weird. 

[William]

PS: Gnu I recently read Stephen Hawking's new book which touches on this very issue - he settles for M (mosaic) theory in place of the much desired Theory of Everything which seems too hard achieve at the moment.

I found his book a little unconvincing even though I agreed with his conclusions i.e. that science can now explain the origin of the universe without God in the story (words to that effect).

I'll pick up with this thread again in a couple of days - just about to head off on some international flights (and my baggage is overweight - oh bother bother!!!    )

[Gnu Ordure]

Gnu, I'm going with response #2 until somebody shows me a good reason not to.

Well, it's all speculation at this point, so we can either choose something to believe, or admit our ignorance and reserve judgment.

The others are too weird

I like weird. I could go for an absurd universe - Camus, Beckett, Sartre... existentialism makes sense of nonsense... if that makes sense.

And the multiverse is somehow consoling; the football team I support is perenially useless and hasn't won a major competition in 25 years; yet in a parallel world, they win everything, every year. I often think about that world, and am currently constructing a wormhole machine in my garage so I can go there. The basic materials are worms, and holes. I know that's unlikely to work -  but in one universe, it does. It must. And maybe I'm in that one.

By the way, I need more holes. If anyone has any spare holes, maybe in your roof or your shoes, please PM me. 

[kin hell]

By the way, I need more holes. If anyone has any spare holes, maybe in your roof or your shoes, please PM me.

.........topographically human is doughnut.

I have always loved the multiverse concept ...as a sci-fi plaything.
Where each decision tree you reach spins off 2 'verses.
 1. the one where you apparently chose not to bathe with the cat,
and 2. the one where you end up trying to explain to your partner where those embarrassingly placed painful scratches come from.


If I was forced to pick a number from the G'locks Enigma, I'd go with 2. Unique 'verse.
 But I'd only do that safe in the knowledge that in the other 'verses, one (at least) of me would be getting it right (while others may be a bit distracted looking for the antiseptic cream and sticking plasters/bandaids, while cursing the soaked, bedraggled and hissing beast that has taken spitting roost atop the curtain rail).

[ParkingPlaces]

Hey you guys, I hate to rain on your parade, but we may be living in a holographic universe...
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090203130708.htm

Which of course would explain all the lasers in my backyard...

[jsmacks]

Here are some website links for you (I only put two videos on here #1 and #6 and the rest is just reading material; however though, there's an enormous amount of videos on youtube concerning supernatural stuff like this if you want to watch them.  I'm just sending you two, if you don’t take the time to visit all these links and read all the material then please at least watch the two videos).  Thanks a lot.
 
1) Apparition/UFO in Jerusalem Video

 
2) This website has a lot of great arguments for the existence of God.
http://www.godandscience.org/
 
3) These websites have a lot of great arguments for Jesus Christ being the Son of God.  The best information is actually in the books that I think you have to buy from them; but they may have some information for free on their sites as well.  I haven't checked out the sites a whole lot, only read the books.
http://www.leestrobel.com/
http://www.josh.org/site/c.ddKDIMNtEqG/b.4023555/k.BE5B/Home.htm     
 
4) These sites have to do with near death experiences (NDE's).  I used to be thoroughly convinced that when you die you either went to heaven or hell and I absolutely didn't believe in purgatory.  The more I read on these sites though the more I've come to believe that that's not the case.  They definitely suggest an afterlife, just a little bit different then what most Christians believe in.  Although I can't say I believe or agree with everything in these sites, I will say that I agree there are a whole lot of different experiences which have come from a whole lot of different cultural and religious backgrounds.
http://www.nderf.org/
http://www.near-death.com/
 
5) This is a website about the Apparitions of Medjurgorje where six people from Bosnia Herzogevania claim that Mary the Mother of Jesus has been consistently appearing to them since 1981.  The more I look into it then the more I believe they're telling the truth.  I just honestly don't think these people come across as individuals who'd be putting on a hoax for the past 30 years.  And on top of that, the messages just seem like they're from God.  You should do some research on other claimed apparitions from Mary sometime as well though; the information is very, very interesting. 
http://www.medjugorje.org/ 
 
6) Here’s the other video I included.  If you didn’t read #5 yet then please go back and read it first, it kind of sets this up.  But anyway though, this is an interview from one of the six people in Medjugorge whose name is Mirjana Soldo.  Watch it and honestly tell me you think she’s carried on a hoax for the past 30 years.

 
7) And last but not least, a link to my favorite book in the world; Hope Beyond Hell by Gerry Beauchemin.  It utterly lays down the most Biblically based argument you’ll ever read that in the end everybody will be saved.  Christ will be victorious!!!  Yes there’s a hell, but NO it’s not eternal.  Unbelievable book and so scripturally based that I can’t think straight.  For all the Christians out there, if you ever read one book in your life then please read this one.
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/

What would an apparition and/UFO have to do with the proof of existence of God?

[RaymondKHessel]

And the multiverse is somehow consoling; the football team I support is perenially useless and hasn't won a major competition in 25 years; yet in a parallel world, they win everything, every year. I often think about that world, and am currently constructing a wormhole machine in my garage so I can go there. The basic materials are worms, and holes. I know that's unlikely to work -  but in one universe, it does. It must. And maybe I'm in that one.

I laughed my lungs out at this. 

What would an apparition and/UFO have to do with the proof of existence of God?

And this. For completely different reasons. This is a question I would VERY much like to hear the answer to. I bet it will liquify my brain and blow my mind right out of my earholes.

[urs]

And the multiverse is somehow consoling; the football team I support is perenially useless and hasn't won a major competition in 25 years; yet in a parallel world, they win everything, every year. I often think about that world, and am currently constructing a wormhole machine in my garage so I can go there. The basic materials are worms, and holes. I know that's unlikely to work -  but in one universe, it does. It must. And maybe I'm in that one.

By the way, I need more holes. If anyone has any spare holes, maybe in your roof or your shoes, please PM me.

Oh, I've got a hole for ya.

Wow, that was disgusting. I blame my husband. He's a very bad influence on me.

p.s. I fell out of my chair when I read that post, Gnu. You're gonna get a lot of good karma for that one. Hopefully, the kind that throws a lot of holes your way.

[natlegend]

By the way, I need more holes. If anyone has any spare holes, maybe in your roof or your shoes, please PM me. 

I've got this hole in my backyard I need to get rid of. I was gonna fill it in with a dead body but that fell through. Hole's yours if you're not too grossed out by the thought of receiving a potential grave... a hole's a hole, that's what we say round these parts.

[William]

But the question is still worth asking, why do the dimensionless physical constants have the values they do? And could they be different?

Don't ask me; I'm a gnu.

Okay Gnu, I'll ask somebody else.  Is there a "lever" one can pull to get a different set of jackpot physical constants? 

[grant]

Tell you what, you started with

I only put two videos on here #1 and #6 and the rest is just reading material

and quickly went on to say

If you didn’t read #5 yet then please go back and read it first

What made you think I'd do that? You specifically said it didn't matter. Speaks volumes of where your head is at.

Sorry if I've glossed over other peoples input and didn't give it the respect it probably deserves but, get your act together if you want to be taken seriously. To me, you destroyed any right to response by being expectant that I even gave a shit and would follow up with further research. I really don't know why I even bothered to write this response. Just annoyance I guess.

[kin hell]

By the way, I need more holes. If anyone has any spare holes, maybe in your roof or your shoes, please PM me.

I've got this hole in my backyard I need to get rid of. I was gonna fill it in with a dead body but that fell through. Hole's yours if you're not too grossed out by the thought of receiving a potential grave... a hole's a hole, that's what we say round these parts.

funny bugger    +1

[dloubet]

We have not examined any other universes, therefore we are not justified in placing odds on this one being the way it is. For all we know, the range of values that are being described as "narrow" could all be interdependant on one single factor. That would eliminate their characterization as "narrow" right off the bat.

And of course, we're only talking about the Universe As We Know It. To place odds against the universe being the way it is is like the creationist tactic of citing the astronomical odds against humans evolving, unaware that evolution was not aiming at producing humans. The argument assumes that a universe has to be exactly like this one or it's a failure as a universe.

It also assumes that universes can be any other way than this one. It could be that to even have a universe, it has to be like this one.

We just don't know. We're working on it.

[JWBake1982]

Here are some website links for you (I only put two videos on here #1 and #6 and the rest is just reading material; however though, there's an enormous amount of videos on youtube concerning supernatural stuff like this if you want to watch them.  I'm just sending you two, if you don’t take the time to visit all these links and read all the material then please at least watch the two videos).  Thanks a lot.
 
1) Apparition/UFO in Jerusalem Video

 
2) This website has a lot of great arguments for the existence of God.
http://www.godandscience.org/
 
3) These websites have a lot of great arguments for Jesus Christ being the Son of God.  The best information is actually in the books that I think you have to buy from them; but they may have some information for free on their sites as well.  I haven't checked out the sites a whole lot, only read the books.
http://www.leestrobel.com/
http://www.josh.org/site/c.ddKDIMNtEqG/b.4023555/k.BE5B/Home.htm     
 
4) These sites have to do with near death experiences (NDE's).  I used to be thoroughly convinced that when you die you either went to heaven or hell and I absolutely didn't believe in purgatory.  The more I read on these sites though the more I've come to believe that that's not the case.  They definitely suggest an afterlife, just a little bit different then what most Christians believe in.  Although I can't say I believe or agree with everything in these sites, I will say that I agree there are a whole lot of different experiences which have come from a whole lot of different cultural and religious backgrounds.
http://www.nderf.org/
http://www.near-death.com/
 
5) This is a website about the Apparitions of Medjurgorje where six people from Bosnia Herzogevania claim that Mary the Mother of Jesus has been consistently appearing to them since 1981.  The more I look into it then the more I believe they're telling the truth.  I just honestly don't think these people come across as individuals who'd be putting on a hoax for the past 30 years.  And on top of that, the messages just seem like they're from God.  You should do some research on other claimed apparitions from Mary sometime as well though; the information is very, very interesting. 
http://www.medjugorje.org/ 
 
6) Here’s the other video I included.  If you didn’t read #5 yet then please go back and read it first, it kind of sets this up.  But anyway though, this is an interview from one of the six people in Medjugorge whose name is Mirjana Soldo.  Watch it and honestly tell me you think she’s carried on a hoax for the past 30 years.

 
7) And last but not least, a link to my favorite book in the world; Hope Beyond Hell by Gerry Beauchemin.  It utterly lays down the most Biblically based argument you’ll ever read that in the end everybody will be saved.  Christ will be victorious!!!  Yes there’s a hell, but NO it’s not eternal.  Unbelievable book and so scripturally based that I can’t think straight.  For all the Christians out there, if you ever read one book in your life then please read this one.
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/

Okay, I realize I worded the first part of the post horribly and said it in a way that made every video on youtube out to be authentic.  I know that that’s not the truth.  Although I believe many of them are genuine and real, I know the vast majority aren’t so I’d like to say that right now.  As for the first video, I think I already stated once that it wasn’t one I should have put up there as well.  Since no eyewitnesses have stepped forward (to my knowledge) then it makes it highly skeptical.  However though, I do believe the rest of the information is solid resources.  Please do take the time to check them out if you get a chance.  Thanks a lot.     

Wait, one more thing, as for the Apparitions of Medjugorje I like these two links a whole lot better.

http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_15_2_pandarakalam.pdf

 http://www.medjugorje.ws/

[jetson]

JWBake1982,

Please stop adding more material for everyone to look at, and reply directly, in your own words, to replies and questions from other members.  You need to be supporting your evidence and convincing members of it's accuracy, for example.  Dumping links into this thread with little to say other than, "please read this", is not conducive to good discussion.

Jetson

[Lurking]

He likes the Gish Gallop, doesn't he?
I see he doesn't like reasoning, one point at a time, at all. Look at his other threat. What makes me think that he's not a scientist?

[Gnu Ordure]

Nat:

I've got this hole in my backyard I need to get rid of. I was gonna fill it in with a dead body but that fell through. Hole's yours if you're not too grossed out...

Sounds good, Nat. Although, the design for my machine specifies certain qualities of hole, such as size, shape, and most importantly, they must be unused. Used holes may be damaged or contaminated, particularly by dead bodies. So I have a couple of preliminary questions:

1. Can you confirm that your hole has never contained any bodies, dead or alive? Or worms? Or indeed anything at all?
2. How big is your hole, exactly? Is it big enough for an echo? (Technical requirement - can't explain right now). 
3. Can you send me a photo?

Thanks.

Urs:

Oh, I've got a hole for ya.

Great. If you wouldn't mind answering the same questions, then...

Wow, that was disgusting.

I don't understand; what do you mean, urs?

[kin hell]

Gnu if you show me urs I'll show you mine. 



.........now that's a hole

[Gnu Ordure]

Gnu if you show me urs I'll show you mine.

Heh-heh. Nice one.

........now that's a hole

Pah.

There's a bigger hole between JWBake's ears.

Pretty sure it's unused as well.

[Ivellios]

I think it's funny he keeps bringing up UFOs considering they're not proven to be physical manifest objects. What are they? well, to be blunt, they're unidentified.

A person can hallucinate and truely believe what they saw.

A compulsive lair will truely believe what ever crap they make up.

A person can dream and believe it to be real.

Multiple hallucinations? There are UFO sightings where many people see what ever it was.

UFOs do NOT prove the existence of an omnimax god. They rather disprove it. The bible says that the Earth is the center of the universe, both physical and figurative. It says that human are the pinnacle of god's creation. UFOs show that humans are NOT the pinnacle of 'creation.' Finally UFOs have made people realize that god(s) in "sacred works" like the bible may in reality could be flesh and blood beings that used space craft and because of humans limited knowledge of technology and the cosmos thought these astronauts were "gods."

Point: If it is ever proven that some UFOs are indeed craft manufactured by an advanced race/species visiting the surface of the Earth, then that is physical proof that your god does not exist. That one of these astronauts (ancestor/cyro?/something else?) visted the Earth in the past and it was them that was written about. A big case of mistaken identity.

[velkyn]

JW,

However though, I do believe the rest of the information is solid resources.  Please do take the time to check them out if you get a chance.  Thanks a lot.   

It's all baseless superstious garbage, JW. You are simply throwing shit at a wall and praying  that some of it sticks. 

[screwtape]

Gnu & kin,

While I am sure it is fun for you two, your discussion of holes is not exactly on topic and is a distraction.  Tighten it up if you would, please, fellas.  Thanks.

[Gnu Ordure]

Dammit Screwtape, Urs was just about to send me a picture of her hole, and now you've ruined everything. Have you no compassion?

While I am sure it is fun for you two

To be fair, I did also make Ray laugh his lungs out and Urs fall off her chair. I don't know about you, but one of the reasons I come to this Forum is to cause physical injuries of this nature. (Hope that's not against the Rules).



And now back to our scheduled broadcast...

[kin hell]

Fair call screwtape, I will hereby cease and desist talking about off topic holes.

........but I will venture that as JBW's whole approach has been just post links and a hope we will read them, I must infer that his OP topic is so full of holes, he cannot address whatever effort other posters may or may not make.
 
 Now I don't think he is deliberately being an arsehole about this, I think he's more like Andy Warhol (it's Warhol actually ...as in holes)

in that
Andy Warhol has an acute ability to visualize future possibilities, and an almost childlike faith in "what could be". Unless he has a vision, an aspiration, or a wonderful dream to believe in, Warhol is not completely happy.

http://famous-relationships.topsynergy.com/Andy_Warhol/Characteristics.asp
Please understand that I am not  claiming to know JWB, but his wholehearted and unquestioning acceptance of the medjug circus makes me feel I am
reasonably accurate in suggesting that this is like a rabbit browsing happily here, content to offer little circular-logic droppings, but ready to disappear swiftly back down the rabbit hole at the first sign of the cross atheists causing him to reconsider. 

Also, I believe not being wholly attuned to the whole of the requirements of this forum (at least not in any holistic sense) JWB only offers a hologramic arguement, thinking he's given his evidence. And yes it is visibly there , but without any tangibly real hole for Thomas the doubter to insert the skeptical digit.

And undoubtedly all theists would profess JWB as a much holier man than I, but still I cannot help but find his OP topic somewhat hollow, or at best unfulfilled. It's evidence, only if a doughnut can still be a doughnut without the hole. 

[Ivellios]

And undoubtedly all theists would profess JWB as a much holier man than I, but still I cannot help but find his OP topic somewhat hollow, or at best unfulfilled. It's evidence, only if a doughnut can still be a doughnut without the hole.

The donut hole proves the donut! Can't you see that?

When I was in elementry school one of the bus drivers gave our class a full bag of freshly baked donut holes. An ignorant sinner would have just thought it was only an empty bag. BAH! Those who had faith though, got to enjoy those donut holes! If anyone was so stupid and mentioned that it was "only an empty bag" they were laughed at, and we beat them sensless until they accepted that it was really full of donut holes. Sure if we were catholics circa 300-1500 AD or jews from moses till 70 AD we would have just killed them outright but in our civilized society, we just harass and beat them up till they see the light. I mean, there would have to be something absulutely WRONG with you if you thought that bag of fresh donut holes was just an "empty bag."

JWBake and other theists, you can keep your donut holes, to me it's an empty bag and I'd rather have the donut instead.