Why GOD does not heal amputees? Maybe because...

[GodlessHeathen]

Eventually you will have done everything that can be done. You will achieve everything that can be achieved.

Like Vandal Savage From the Legion of Doom

I guess if you were immortal you could eventually go insane with boredom.

Precisely why the idea of eternal life does not appeal to me at all. Imagine it, having lived millions of years, done everything and seen everything, and yet still having a million more years to live. And that not even being a drop in the bucket!

[Truth OT]

Eventually you will have done everything that can be done. You will achieve everything that can be achieved.

Like Vandal Savage From the Legion of Doom

I guess if you were immortal you could eventually go insane with boredom.

Precisely why the idea of eternal life does not appeal to me at all. Imagine it, having lived millions of years, done everything and seen everything, and yet still having a million more years to live. And that not even being a drop in the bucket!

At what point would boredom be less attractive than non existence?

[One Above All]

At what point would boredom be less attractive than non existence?

It would depend on the individual. In addition to that, since our lifespans are limited, I don't think anyone can answer that question.

[Truth OT]

At what point would boredom be less attractive than non existence?

It would depend on the individual. In addition to that, since our lifespans are limited, I don't think anyone can answer that question.

I know this thought is a bit off topic, but these most recent posts have it on my mind. I wonder why we bother giving care and treatment to someone that has purposely attempted suicide. If we have the right to control our lives, does that right not also extent to being able to choose to end our lives. And once we've made the decision to end it, won't it be sort of a violation of our rights to resessitate (sp?) someone that wishes to be dead?

[HAL]

How can you give meaning to your life if it will never end? Eventually you will have done everything that can be done. You will achieve everything that can be achieved. Your life will be empty.

Hey, let me give it a shot. If I eventually achieve everything then I can always kill myself off at that point. 

[One Above All]

Hey, let me give it a shot. If I eventually achieve everything then I can always kill myself off at that point. 

That's just it - you can't. You're immortal. You will never die.

[Seppuku]

Quoted from Hatter23: "One of the major reasons for religosity that isn't brought up nearly enough. People don't like the FACT they are part of uncaring universe marching to their quiet, forgettable, and inevitable demise; but rather want to think they have a special substance(a soul) that is the prize of an epic battle between cosmic entities."

Can we assume that the above statement specifically the sentence "People don't like the FACT they are part of uncaring universe marching to their quiet, forgettable, and inevitable demise," applies also to you?

And if you answer yes to my former question, then how do you feel and are handling your inevitable demise to come?

What if naturalism or science somehow offered you eternal life on this planet as we know it now, would you take it?

Death is something people have difficulty to deal with, it's a scary thing, ceasing to exist and in all honesty, I personally think life is too short and get old too soon. I'm sure this fear is what makes people reluctant to come to believe that there is no life after death, but it will be the same as before you existed. If science did offer me eternal life, I may take it, not to last for all eternity, but to extend my life until I deem my life worth ending, assuming nothing kills me before that.

I'm not a wishful thinker, I do have wishes and I have my hopes, but I don't let them distort how I view reality. Dying is scary, even for me but to me it's also a fact of life.

You also talked earlier about not 'knowing' everything, in context to a 'possible' causer of our existence. The very important thing is, yes, we do not know. There's a GREAT deal we do not know about the universe, so I don't think there's room to start making assumptions. Science requires something that can be tested over and over and over before it can be considered a theory in scientific terms and remains to go on testing, it sticks to what can be known and tested. Life after death, deities, the great gig in the sky, these are all ideas that can calm our fears if we believe them, but what basis is there for believing them to be true? Hope? Wishful thinking? Faith? These ideas are just filling gaps to questions we do not know answers to (or in many cases, answers to questions that have been answered but refuse to acknowledge). I would very happily say 'I do not know' to something I do not know.

I do not have to know, nor is it important. How I came to existence isn't going to effect how I lead my life, nor will what'll happen after I die. People will often use damnation to hell as a means of pushing people into finding a means of protecting an afterlife, but there's so many versions of hells across a vast number of religions, cultures and societies and some version of eternal life in a paradise that's really not a paradise, particularly if you care about your fellow man.  Heck there's some views on religion that suggest that I'm going to find eternal bliss and I could compromise that by deceiving myself. So you can see why I don't delve into the unknown, because...well...it's unknown and there's no security measures, nothing you can confirm so I think the important thing is to lead a good and full life.

At what point would boredom be less attractive than non existence?

You may feel you have exhausted all you can do in life and have grown tired of existing. Some view immortality as a curse rather than a blessing. Sure we fear death, but who knows, eternal life may not be worth spending it for an eternity.

That's just it - you can't. You're immortal. You will never die.

Depends on the version of immortality. Vampires are immortal, but you can kill them, it just means you can't be defeated by mortal weaknesses - aging and dying of old age for example, but doesn't necessarily mean you're invincible too. A life after death immortality, well I would like to have the luxury of being able to cease my existence. Eternal life could end in torture...would kind of be ironic if you were in heaven.

[HAL]

That's just it - you can't. You're immortal. You will never die.

Sure I can die. Immortality doesn't mean you can't die, it just means that you won't die because of old age, maybe even that you can't get infected or have cancer or other diseases. It means that you have the ability to live forever - not that you will for sure. I could be killed, one way would be to cut off my head.

[One Above All]

Depends on the version of immortality.
<snip>

Sure I can die.
<snip>

I was assuming we were using the literal meaning of immortality (invincibility and agelessness). Otherwise it would make no sense to speak of life without death.

[One Above All]

I know this thought is a bit off topic, but these most recent posts have it on my mind. I wonder why we bother giving care and treatment to someone that has purposely attempted suicide. If we have the right to control our lives, does that right not also extent to being able to choose to end our lives. And once we've made the decision to end it, won't it be sort of a violation of our rights to resessitate (sp?) someone that wishes to be dead?

The instinct for self-preservation can only[1] be "overridden", so to speak, if the person is greatly depressed. It is within our nature to support those in our "tribe", and so we resuscitate them to try to help them. At least that's my interpretation of it.

1.	Hyperbole. I'm referring to the only reason I believe relevant to the question.

[Hatter23]

you've just repeated yourself.  For you to say how it makes sense would require you to explain something.

I second this motion.

[Hatter23]

Eventually you will have done everything that can be done. You will achieve everything that can be achieved.

Like Vandal Savage From the Legion of Doom

I guess if you were immortal you could eventually go insane with boredom.

Precisely why the idea of eternal life does not appeal to me at all. Imagine it, having lived millions of years, done everything and seen everything, and yet still having a million more years to live. And that not even being a drop in the bucket!

Actually some have put forward that the human brain only has room for about 500 years of experiences before the memory would "overwrite" itself. If this is true, then boredom of that type would not be possible.

[Jake]

That's just it - you can't. You're immortal. You will never die.

Sure I can die. Immortality doesn't mean you can't die, it just means that you won't die because of old age, maybe even that you can't get infected or have cancer or other diseases. It means that you have the ability to live forever - not that you will for sure. I could be killed, one way would be to cut off my head.

HAL, you never told me you were an immortal.    We must now do battle with swords on top of something fairly tall, or in a shopping mall parking lot in the dead of night.

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE, HAL!     

[Hatter23]

how does that analogy make any sense?

Hatter23 stated that because the absence of death makes life meaningless, then death gives life meaning. It does not. Death is an essential component for life forms to be able to give their own lives meaning, but it does not and cannot give meaning to life.

No you stated:

Death is just the end of life. Without that, life would become meaningless. And yes, I know that life gives life meaning, but that meaning can only exist if life is on a timer. How can you give meaning to your life if it will never end?

And it stated:

I disagree that death gives life meaning.

And you stated you aren't stating death gives life meaning. I cannot parse the sentence:

Without (death), life would become meaningless.

Into anything different than the sentence 'death gives life meaning.' Neither can screwtape. Nothing you have said has any weight to the argument these two sentences mean something completely different.

You are a frustrating person to disagree with, and it isn't because you put forth air tight arguments either.

[GodlessHeathen]

Actually some have put forward that the human brain only has room for about 500 years of experiences before the memory would "overwrite" itself. If this is true, then boredom of that type would not be possible.

Interesting. Makes sense, though. Just as a physical hard drive eventually runs out of space, a human brain would also eventually become "full" of chemically stored memories.

Of course, there is the variety of Christian who sees life after death as an existence as some sort of disembodied (and brainless? ) spirit.

[One Above All]

<snip>
Nothing you have said has any weight to the argument these two sentences mean something completely different.

I also said this:

No, it is not. You can't have juice without water; does that mean that water is juice?

As an attempt to explain why the two statements I snipped above are not the same. I also edited my post shortly before you replied to it (but after you quoted it) and added this:

Eventually you will have done everything that can be done. You will achieve everything that can be achieved. Your life will be empty.

Then I restated it twice. This is the third time.

You are a frustrating person to disagree with, and it isn't because you put forth air tight arguments either.

Tell me why then. Is it because I actually try to defend my position instead of accepting whatever you say unquestioningly; especially when you're misunderstanding my position? You know, like any rational person should? That seems to be what most people say when I ask them to explain that statement.

[Anfauglir]

Regarding death, and life, and meaning......I understand what Lucifer means.  But I can't seem to put it into words......I'll keep trying.   

Eventually you will have done everything that can be done. You will achieve everything that can be achieved.

I'm not sure you would....at least assuming a finite universe.  Now THAT would be terrible......living on past the end of the universe for all eternity in a cold, dark, lonely void.  No wonder Yahweh decided to create stuff.....and no wonder he was already quite insane when he did it.......but I digress.

I've never been an oil rig worker.  I've never been a fighter pilot.  I've never run with the bulls.  I've never fished in the sea.  I've never played lacrosse.  More to the point, I've never had the time to train to do all those things, to get good at them.

I've not watched "House", or "Battlestar Galactica", or past season 4 of "Buffy", or "Twin Peaks".  I've never read Oman's "Art of War in the Middle Ages", or Pratchett's "Snuff", or Dawkins latest, or "God Collar" (all sitting on my shelves waiting for the time).  I've never played Notre Dame, or La Citta, or Ming Dynasty, or Strozzi, or Albion, or Hamburgum - again, all sitting on my shelves in the shrink wrap.  And I have dozens of "Starship Troopers" figures sitting waiting to be painted and gamed with, and ECW regiments, and High Elves, and Zombie Stormtroopers.

And those are just the jobs, and the books, and the TV shows, and the toys, that I know NOW I want to experience.  I can't keep up with what there is NOW, let alone all the stuff that's going to appear over the rest of my finite lifetime.  I know full well I will die never having played enough Ankh-Morpork, or shot enough Warrior Bugs, or read everything I want to read.

So a big resounding NO.....I do NOT believe you'd ever do everything there is to be done, at least not as much as you'd like - at least not while there are more things being produced, more people around to do things with.  So being immortal would be quite fine with me, and I know I'd never get bored.....so long as there is other stuff to do.

Which brings me back to where I started.  Yahweh (or whoever) created us to stave off boredom and give him some entertainment and diversion to pass the countless millennia.  We are Soap Opera for the gods.....and once you start to think of things like that, then everything makes sense......bad things happening to good people, natural disasters, bread falling butterside down......we're all just one huge great episode of Seinfeld/Desperate Housewives/Friends/Eastenders (delete as appropriate).

[One Above All]

So a big resounding NO.....I do NOT believe you'd ever do everything there is to be done <snip> at least not while there are more things being produced, more people around to do things with.

Eventually everything would be wiped out; either because the universe got too cold or because it began to contract again(?). But everyone and everything would end. Except you. Long before then, however, you'd get bored with people.

[Anfauglir]

But everyone and everything would end. Except you. Long before then, however, you'd get bored with people.

If it all ended, then yes - I'd like it to stop.  But bored with people?  I don't know.....is everyone else immortal?  If not, then like books and movies, there are always new ones to meet.....not to mention aliens and the fun when the apes take over!

Maybe if everyone was immortal, and you kept seeing the same people all the time.... (hell is other people?).....but even then, with 6 billion and counting already itd take a whole lotta time.

But I'll go with the caveat then - I wouldn't get bored with immortality while there are new humans coming on the scene and producing new stuff for me to see/read/eat/experience carnal delight with.  Heck, don't even need that much new stuff - I could play X-Com over and over again, and I've already read all my Pratchett and King books a dozen times.....I could do the same things many times without a problem, and I'm sure I'll do the same thing with the works of T'kop%(sound of rattle) in the year 12,529.....

Make us both immortal, and in 10 billion years we'll see who was right!

[One Above All]

Obviously we're assuming that only you (the individual) would become immortal. Regardless, there's only so many things that you can do.

[orpat]

No. Seriously, what number of American even know the term "Deist" much less are one? And given that Deists, by definition, do not believe in an interventionist God, they aren't any sort of threat to personal liberty or life and limb, unlike gnostic Theists.

Okay

[orpat]

How can you give meaning to your life if it will never end? Eventually you will have done everything that can be done. You will achieve everything that can be achieved. Your life will be empty.

Hey, let me give it a shot. If I eventually achieve everything then I can always kill myself off at that point. 

After I have had all the fun in life, after the business I started became a success,  after I bought the car I wanted to have, after I built a palace for myself,after I got married and had kids,I can kill myself.

Does it make any sense?

[orpat]

Life is like a gift. It's like the most precious gift anyone want to have. Its what differentiates a living organism from a non-living matter.

Death is when this gift is taken away. Imagine a 5 year old child playing with his favourite toy. What happens when his toy is taken away?

Has anybody here experienced near-death like situations? I mean where you were seconds away from death?

[Anfauglir]

Obviously we're assuming that only you (the individual) would become immortal. Regardless, there's only so many things that you can do.

The way I look at it is this: I already have more new books to read, TV shows & films to watch, games to play, and other stuff to do than I have time for.  My "reading pile" is getting bigger as new books come out, my Sky+ box is getting fuller and fuller.

So my point is that new things are being added faster than I can deal with the old ones....nor do I have the time to do things more than once where I want to do so (some re-reading, but also playing the same games over and over).

While that condition continues - while new games are being made, new books being written, new shows being made - I can't see me running out of things I want to do.

Like I say, it DOES depend on their being a continuing stream of other people around to produce stuff for me to enjoy, so that's a condition of my not getting bored - as I've already said, being "the only one left" would get old very quickly.

For me to accept that I'd run out of things to do, I'd have to be seeing my reading pile (etc) going DOWN already.....and it strikes me that if I was already heading that way, then immortality isn't an issue anyways: I'd be looking at becoming bored with life inside a normal lifetime.

[One Above All]

<snip>
For me to accept that I'd run out of things to do, I'd have to be seeing my reading pile (etc) going DOWN already.....

Doesn't matter. I think that the problem can best be explained with math.
X² (when X>0) "grows" slightly more quickly than 2^X at the beginning. However, past a certain point, its "growth" is slower. Likewise, right now the pile of things to do[1] is increasing more quickly than the number of things that have been done. However, given an infinite amount of time, we would eventually reach the point in which we will have written every book with every possible genre in every possible way[2].
Sure, the number of ways in which something (in this case, writing books) can be done is ridiculously high. But then so is infinity. In fact, infinity is infinitely larger.

1.	To be more precise, our perception of that which can be done.
2.	For example. Applies to everything that can be done.

[Anfauglir]

be more precise, our perception of that which can be done.[/nb] is increasing more quickly than the number of things that have been done. However, given an infinite amount of time, we would eventually reach the point in which we will have written every book with every possible genre in every possible way[1].

1.	For example. Applies to everything that can be done.

I can agree with that so far as it goes, but I have two objections - one mathematical, one practical.

The math one: I agree with what you say talking about books - or, as you say, with respect of any medium or genre or whatever.  But we're not talking about just one thing and its permutations - there's all manner of media, all manner of hobbies, all manner of all kinds of stuff, each subject to the multiple combinations.

Now, I accept that "lots of things" x "lots of variations" does NOT equal infinity, no matter how large the "lots" in each parameter may be......but I was presuming that we were putting a maximum boundary on the universe?  That - one day - there will be no universe for me to exist in?  In other words, that we were bounding "immortality" as tied to the lifespan of the universe, not immortality=infinite existence (and I said already, no fun living past the end of everything anyway!)

Point being, lots of stuff, lots of ways, assuming continued people to produce it, will keep me entertained forever.  After all, once I've read the book and seen the movie, I can then look forward to the holographic version, then the implant version, the VR version, the 4D sensorama version.....and who knows what yet to come?  All, essentially, the same plot, but enjoyable again in the different version.  (e.g LOTR - the books, the Bakti (sp?) version, the Jackson versions - long and short,......and who knows what the VR version will be like in 2147?  I'll still expect Boromir to die, but I'll enjoy seeing it again in a different way.

Which brings me on to the second point, which may be where our difference really lies?

I know there are some people who can't bear to do the same thing again, no matter how much they enjoyed it first time round.  But that's not me, not by a long way.  I've read "The Stand" about 6 times now, and seen the TV series 3 or 4 times.  And I know full well I will do both again.  Read LOTR at least 10 times, seen the films 4 or 5 times.  Every Pratchett book I've read at least twice, up to 7 or 8 times for the older ones.  Ditto my Stephen Kings, my George R.R. Martins, my Dilbert books, Calvin & Hobbes, Bloom County (I'g going along my shelves  ), Asterix (a dozen or more times), Dr.Doolittle, Fritz Leiber, Robert Heinlein, Tove Jansson, Narnia, Oz, Pern, Charlie Brown & Snoopy, Sharpe, the Stainless Steel Rat....then DVDs of Red Dwarf, Doctor Who, The Prisoner, The Mighty Boosh, A Very Peculiar Practice......

I'll stop now because you get the idea.  But each thing above I have read/watched several times, and I know I will happily do so for each of them many many more times.  And I'm equally sure that I will only be adding to that "happy-repeat" list as time goes on, not just because more stuff will be coming out, but because there's a lots of stuff I already KNOW I want to add to it, but haven't yet through lack of cash or space: This Is Jinsy I know will get more watchings.  "God? No!" will get read over and over.

And that's just books and DVDs.  I've played Warhammer over and over.  Starship Troopers.  Ankh-Morpork.  Caylus Magna Carta.  God's Playground.   Munchkins.  Maori.   And more.....and that's just the "physical" games.  On the PC, I've been playing X-Com (Ufo: Enemy Unknown) for decades.  Ditto Lords of Midnight.  Umpteen game on Yucata.de (I'm Anfauglir there too!).  Cosmic Encounter Online (ditto!).  Grand Prix 3, Elite, Total War, Wii Sports......and again I could go on and on and on.

Already, I have enough OLD stuff that I love and enjoy, that would take a couple years to cycle through even if I didn't do ANYTHING new.  And at the end of that cycle I'd be thinking "hmmm, time to start over again at the beginning".  And I honestly, honestly can't see that stopping - especially if with the time and resources I could get that cycling up to (say) ten years between repeats?  Could I enjoy re-reading "Reaper Man" again every ten years forever?  You bet I could - its been read half a dozen times already, I haven't read it just for a couple years, and already my memory of the details is hazy, certainly the actual language and sequence of events.  And I honestly don't believe that reading it every ten years or so, that I would reach the stage where I remembered it word for word, not even after ten thousand readings.....certainly not if it were only 1 book in a ten (or twenty, or more) -year cycle of the things I love.

And, like I say, that's without all the new stuff coming out.  I could happily live forever with what I already have - almost 1400 books (blimey!  ) for starters.

But I appreciate that's not for everybody.  But seriously - I could deal quite happily with immortality, at least so far as there is stuff around that I love. 

[One Above All]

but I was presuming that we were putting a maximum boundary on the universe?  That - one day - there will be no universe for me to exist in?

The universe will exist forever. "Heat death"[1] would not affect you. You would exist forever alongside the universe.

I know there are some people who can't bear to do the same thing again, no matter how much they enjoyed it first time round.  But that's not me, not by a long way.
<snip>
I'll stop now because you get the idea.

I do get the idea - you're still thinking like a mortal being. And therein lies your problem. Sure, you can watch something six or ten times and enjoy it. You might even watch it every second of every day for as long as you're awake and still be entertained. That's nothing[2] compared to infinity. You'd be doomed to do the same things over and over and over (...) and over again. For eternity.

But I appreciate that's not for everybody.  But seriously - I could deal quite happily with immortality, at least so far as there is stuff around that I love. 

Like I said above, you're still thinking like a mortal. You need to put things into a much larger perspective. You can't tell me that you've never gotten bored with anything. That's just not possible.

Of course, note that we're also assuming that you'd be able to remember all of that. In our current state (with limited "space" for memories), immortality would kick ass.

1.	Which seems to be the most likely outcome, judging from the way the universe is expanding.
2.	Literally.

[Anfauglir]

Of course, note that we're also assuming that you'd be able to remember all of that. In our current state (with limited "space" for memories), immortality would kick ass.

That's pretty much what I was assuming.  I have trouble remembering all the details of a book I read just a year or so ago, so it seems fresh when I return to it.  If I were on a 100-year cycle to return to it - with my memory! - it'd be as good then as it was last time.

Of course, that's assuming my tastes didn't change....but then if they did, that'd be even better!  It'd add more "new" things to do....and then in a thousand years when my tastes change back, I'd have a load more "new old things" to enjoy again!

Anyhoo.....in summary, I'm not turning down immortality on the off-chance I might get bored in a billion years....just in case there's a genie or a capricious godling reading this thread!

[One Above All]

just in case there's a genie or a capricious godling reading this thread!

Your wish has been granted. Enjoy eternal boredom.