Author Topic: How do you feel about this quote?  (Read 5327 times)

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Offline Freezykow

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How do you feel about this quote?
« on: October 11, 2008, 02:55:57 PM »
I just really wanted to know how you feel about this quote and I would like to see you all discuss it and observe the conclusions that are determined from it.

'To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.'

I wonder who said that? Hmmmmmm....  ;D
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Offline Freak

Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2008, 03:02:51 PM »
I woudn't use a computer science from 100 years ago, why would I use biology from 100 years ago?
When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bike. Then I realised, the Lord doesn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

Offline Freezykow

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Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2008, 03:08:57 PM »
I wouldn't use a computer science from 100 years ago, why would I use biology from 100 years ago?

So would you go by anything the man who made this quote said or wrote? Have you scraped those ideas and made new ones?
When the power of love, overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. – Jimi Hendrix

Offline Freak

Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2008, 03:54:11 PM »
I wouldn't use a computer science from 100 years ago, why would I use biology from 100 years ago?

So would you go by anything the man who made this quote said or wrote? Have you scraped those ideas and made new ones?

We don't scrap knowledge and start again, we build on it. I don't look to scientists from 100 years ago for modern insights. Would I trust a source on evolution from 100 years ago? Of course not, I'd ask modern biologist. Darwin was brilliant for his time, but he's been out of the loop for too long to be an authority on anything.
When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bike. Then I realised, the Lord doesn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

Offline Froggy

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Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2008, 04:28:49 PM »
so... since we're building on what Darwin said

what exactly is todays answer to his being baffled by the complexity of the 'eye'

I'm not 'up' on my evolutionary development.

Just how many "partially eyed" fossils have been recently discovered ?

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« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 04:37:53 PM by Froggy »

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Offline Freezykow

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Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2008, 04:33:46 PM »
I wouldn't use a computer science from 100 years ago, why would I use biology from 100 years ago?

So would you go by anything the man who made this quote said or wrote? Have you scraped those ideas and made new ones?

We don't scrap knowledge and start again, we build on it. I don't look to scientists from 100 years ago for modern insights. Would I trust a source on evolution from 100 years ago? Of course not, I'd ask modern biologist. Darwin was brilliant for his time, but he's been out of the loop for too long to be an authority on anything.

I wonder if they ever found an answer for that dilemma?
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Offline HerrAxel

Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2008, 04:51:18 PM »
what exactly is todays answer to his being baffled by the complexity of the 'eye'

I'm not 'up' on my evolutionary development.

Today's answer is that he was not baffled, but is frequently quoted out of context:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB301.html

What baffles me is the same people who think the eye is too complex to have evolved on its own don't ask the same question about the eye's creator, who would have to be at least as complex as the eye it created, nicht wahr?

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Offline Freezykow

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Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2008, 04:57:35 PM »
what exactly is todays answer to his being baffled by the complexity of the 'eye'

I'm not 'up' on my evolutionary development.

Today's answer is that he was not baffled, but is frequently quoted out of context:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB301.html

Two things I have to say about that one: I'm confused on what your saying there please try to rephrase

Two:Nice German

What baffles me is the same people who think the eye is too complex to have evolved on its own don't ask the same question about the eye's creator, who would have to be at least as complex as the eye it created, nicht wahr?

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Offline Froggy

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Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2008, 04:57:57 PM »
That is a ridiculous analogy

An eye is a mere functional instrument

GOD by definition is the creator of all things

'Eyes' evolve, whereas God is

So, can you (a good Darwinian religionist) please show me the latest fossils exhibiting the development of the eye (over time).  WHERE are the 'partially eyed' fossils that one would need to see to hold such a belief.

I do not have the 'faith' required to be an atheist


Your 'freaky' friend stated that we must keep up with the latest developments.

I'm all ears (pardon the pun) .... by all means, present your case.

 
« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 04:59:49 PM by Froggy »

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Offline Hermes

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Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2008, 05:04:41 PM »
Quote
"Absurd in the highest degree"

An example found in debates over evolution is an out-of-context quotation of Charles Darwin in his Origin of Species:

    To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.

This sentence, sometimes truncated to the phrase "absurd in the highest degree", is often presented as part of an assertion that Darwin himself perceived his own theory of evolution as absurd. However, Darwin went on to explain that the apparent absurdity of the evolution of an eye is no bar to its occurrence.

The quote in context is

    To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.

    Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real.
    —Charles Darwin, Origin of Species

Fallacy of quoting out of context
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context

Seriously, you picked a quote that is so abused that it appears as the first example of a fallacy in a Wikipedia article on the subject. 

When you quote mine, please don't pick something so obvious and make a yourself look like a ham fisted buffoon.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 06:07:49 PM by Hermes »
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Offline Freezykow

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Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2008, 05:12:11 PM »
Quote
"Absurd in the highest degree"

An example found in debates over evolution is an out-of-context quotation of Charles Darwin in his Origin of Species:

    To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.

This sentence, sometimes truncated to the phrase "absurd in the highest degree", is often presented as part of an assertion that Darwin himself perceived his own theory of evolution as absurd. However, Darwin went on to explain that the apparent absurdity of the evolution of an eye is no bar to its occurrence.

The quote in context is

    To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.

    Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real.
    —Charles Darwin, Origin of Species

Fallacy of quoting out of context
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context

Seriously, you picked a quote that is so abused that appears as the first example of a fallacy in a Wikipedia article on the subject. 

When you quote mine, please don't pick something so obvious and make a yourself look like a ham fisted buffoon.

You know you could have said all that without the insult there. No need for an Aggressive atheist.

I do wonder though if evolution took millions of years wouldn't there be a lot of blind animals for a very long time? How did they all live?
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Offline HerrAxel

Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2008, 05:18:33 PM »
I do wonder though if evolution took millions of years wouldn't there be a lot of blind animals for a very long time? How did they all live?

You mean like how do the earthworms, plankton, plants, etc live now?

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Offline Asmoday

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Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2008, 05:18:50 PM »
There is no dilemma. Darwin was not dismantling his own theory of Evolution. If those people, who lean back and smirk, as they think they found a weak spot, would care to read the rest of that paragraph, they would see, that Darwin gave the answer himself. But as usual this line of Darwin is taken out of context and as usual those, who use this quote, "forget" to show us the rest of Darwins statement, that follows right after the quoted part.

But let´s read, what Darwin has to say about it:
Quote
"Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real."


And we don´t even have to look for "partially eyed" fossils for that. Even if we just look at living species, we can see, who the eyes evolved from simple photoreceptor cells to the mammalian eye. Not to forget, that there are a large number of species around, that show us less developed, more simple eyes, which fill the gaps (for example the pinhole eye of the nautilus). Not to mention that if we look at the "best" eyes today we can see all the evolutionary baggage, which would not be there, if there was a designer.
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Offline Freezykow

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Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2008, 05:20:45 PM »
I do wonder though if evolution took millions of years wouldn't there be a lot of blind animals for a very long time? How did they all live?

You mean like how do the earthworms, plankton, plants, etc live now?

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Offline Froggy

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Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2008, 05:22:20 PM »

That answer doesnt cut it

comparing a worm or pinhole eye to an eagle or an owl

SHOW ME a partially blind owl or eagle fossil

the fact that worms are different is irrelevant


I'll wait --- while you go bring me the supposed MILLIONS of examples :rolleyes:


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Offline Freezykow

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Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2008, 05:23:19 PM »
There is no dilemma. Darwin was not dismantling his own theory of Evolution. If those people, who lean back and smirk, as they think they found a weak spot, would care to read the rest of that paragraph, they would see, that Darwin gave the answer himself. But as usual this line of Darwin is taken out of context and as usual those, who use this quote, "forget" to show us the rest of Darwins statement, that follows right after the quoted part.

But let´s read, what Darwin has to say about it:
Quote
"Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real."


And we don´t even have to look for "partially eyed" fossils for that. Even if we just look at living species, we can see, who the eyes evolved from simple photoreceptor cells to the mammalian eye. Not to forget, that there are a large number of species around, that show us less developed, more simple eyes, which fill the gaps (for example the pinhole eye of the nautilus). Not to mention that if we look at the "best" eyes today we can see all the evolutionary baggage, which would not be there, if there was a designer.

Still where did all the "garbage" of evolution go?
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Offline Froggy

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Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2008, 05:29:27 PM »
Quote from: Freezykow

Still where did all the "garbage" of evolution go?

Obviously it 'evolved' suchthat they dont even need an answer to legitimate questions any more  :o

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Offline HerrAxel

Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2008, 05:30:06 PM »
I do wonder though if evolution took millions of years wouldn't there be a lot of blind animals for a very long time? How did they all live?

You mean like how do the earthworms, plankton, plants, etc live now?

-


No more like cats, dogs, and people?

Cats, dogs, and people have eyes.  Jellyfish, coral, bacteria, etc do not and don't seem to have any problem thriving.  They live because they are successful reproducing better/faster than their predator's ability to consume them.

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Offline Freezykow

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Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2008, 05:33:33 PM »
I do wonder though if evolution took millions of years wouldn't there be a lot of blind animals for a very long time? How did they all live?

You mean like how do the earthworms, plankton, plants, etc live now?

-


No more like cats, dogs, and people?

Cats, dogs, and people have eyes.  Jellyfish, coral, bacteria, etc do not and don't seem to have any problem thriving.  They live because they are successful reproducing better/faster than their predator's ability to consume them.

-


You don't listen very well do you? OK lets try again. (according to evolution)At one point in time animals like monkeys, birds, ect... didn't have fully developed eyes. Without those that means millions of years passed by while there eyes were fixing themselves. So how did they survive?
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Offline HerrAxel

Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2008, 05:44:33 PM »
You don't listen very well do you? OK lets try again. (according to evolution)At one point in time animals like monkeys, birds, ect... didn't have fully developed eyes. Without those that means millions of years passed by while there eyes were fixing themselves. So how did they survive?

Ah, now we're getting somewhere.  Evolution doesn't say at one point in time animals like monkeys, birds, etc... didn't have fully developed eyes.  Monkeys, birds, etc. ALWAYS had fully developed eyes.

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Offline Freezykow

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Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2008, 05:45:46 PM »
You don't listen very well do you? OK lets try again. (according to evolution)At one point in time animals like monkeys, birds, ect... didn't have fully developed eyes. Without those that means millions of years passed by while there eyes were fixing themselves. So how did they survive?

Ah, now we're getting somewhere.  Evolution doesn't say at one point in time animals like monkeys, birds, etc... didn't have fully developed eyes.  Monkeys, birds, etc. ALWAYS had fully developed eyes.

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Now how did that happen then?
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Offline Irish

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Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2008, 05:46:46 PM »
You don't listen very well do you? OK lets try again. (according to evolution)At one point in time animals like monkeys, birds, ect... didn't have fully developed eyes. Without those that means millions of years passed by while there eyes were fixing themselves. So how did they survive?

No, at one point there were no monkeys, birds, etc. No one is saying that monkeys evolved with inadequate eyes and then had to wait around while their eyes evolved sufficiently to use.

Eyes developed in lower order lifeforms and evolved in complexity.  Just as lower order lifeforms evolved in complexity as well.  With the individual lifeforms developing and evolving so too did their individual parts.
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Offline Asmoday

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Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2008, 05:48:53 PM »
Quote
SHOW ME a partially blind owl or eagle fossil
*sigh* Can´t you make it atleast a little less obvious, that you don´t know, what you´re talking about?
There can´t be a partially blind owl or eagle, cause such a species would never evolve, if there are competing species, that have eyes. In an evironment, where eyes are highly usefull, a species that doesn´t have eyes will never stand a chance against those species with eyes. You´re making a mistake by thinking, there could partially blind owls evolve while there are other birds in the same niche with fully usable eyes. Evolution favors working concepts and a half-blind owl is not a working concept, if it has to compare with species that are not half-blind...

It´s different, if you look at an environment, where having eyes is notnecessary. Look at the deep see for example. There you´ll find species that do without eyes or that have really really big eyes. These can exist at the same time, cause it is possible to do as good without eyes. They "don´t have to see good" down there. It can be helpfull, but it´s not as important as it is, if the species lives in an evironment where they have a huge advantage with eyes.
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Offline Freezykow

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Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2008, 05:54:44 PM »
Quote
SHOW ME a partially blind owl or eagle fossil
*sigh* Can´t you make it atleast a little less obvious, that you don´t know, what you´re talking about?
There can´t be a partially blind owl or eagle, cause such a species would never evolve, if there are competing species, that have eyes. In an evironment, where eyes are highly usefull, a species that doesn´t have eyes will never stand a chance against those species with eyes. You´re making a mistake by thinking, there could partially blind owls evolve while there are other birds in the same niche with fully usable eyes. Evolution favors working concepts and a half-blind owl is not a working concept, if it has to compare with species that are not half-blind...

It´s different, if you look at an environment, where having eyes is notnecessary. Look at the deep see for example. There you´ll find species that do without eyes or that have really really big eyes. These can exist at the same time, cause it is possible to do as good without eyes. They "don´t have to see good" down there. It can be helpfull, but it´s not as important as it is, if the species lives in an evironment where they have a huge advantage with eyes.

OK well lets try to slightly shift the disscussion but keep the purpose. Reptiles are the common ancestor of modern birds. At one point wouldn't there be an animal with half wing half leg where neither would function properly
« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 06:04:57 PM by Freezykow »
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Offline HerrAxel

Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2008, 06:02:09 PM »
OK well lets try to slightly shift the disscussion but keep the purpose. Reptiles are the common ancestor of modern birds. At one point wouldn't there be an animal with half wing half leg where neither would fiction properly

Who did the first person to speak French talk to?  Was there half a Frenchman?

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Offline Irish

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Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2008, 06:03:52 PM »
OK well lets try to slightly shift the disscussion but keep the purpose. Reptiles are the common ancestor of modern birds. At one point wouldn't there be an animal with half wing half leg where neither would fiction properly

Archeaopteryx, is a candidate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeopteryx

Had wings but was thought to not have been able to fly. And archaeopteryx has been shown to have more in common with the jurassic reptiles of it's time period than with modern birds.
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Offline Freezykow

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Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2008, 06:06:30 PM »
OK well lets try to slightly shift the disscussion but keep the purpose. Reptiles are the common ancestor of modern birds. At one point wouldn't there be an animal with half wing half leg where neither would fiction properly

Who did the first person to speak French talk to?  Was there half a Frenchman?

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Language has what to do with the working body parts of animals?
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Offline Freezykow

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Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2008, 06:07:37 PM »
OK well lets try to slightly shift the disscussion but keep the purpose. Reptiles are the common ancestor of modern birds. At one point wouldn't there be an animal with half wing half leg where neither would function properly

Archeaopteryx, is a candidate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeopteryx

Had wings but was thought to not have been able to fly. And archaeopteryx has been shown to have more in common with the jurassic reptiles of it's time period than with modern birds.

Archaeopteryx could grow to about 0.5 metres (1.6 ft) in length. Despite its small size, broad wings, and ability to fly.

Wikipedia defiantly just said it could fly. Having more in common with reptiles than birds? Hmmmmmmmm... I'll ponder that one for you.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 06:10:27 PM by Freezykow »
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Offline Froggy

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Re: How do you feel about this quote?
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2008, 06:10:29 PM »
Quote from: Asmoday
Quote
SHOW ME a partially blind owl or eagle fossil
*sigh* Can´t you make it atleast a little less obvious, that you don´t know, what you´re talking about?

We shall see - who knows 'what' ... answer if you can 

There can´t be a partially blind owl or eagle, cause such a species would never evolve, if there are competing species, that have eyes.

Hold on there bubba, you've set this one up backwards.

The Darwin Religionist claims that everything evolves (ie the eye) so then there were first beings with no eyes, then partial eyes, then real eyes, then superior eyes. The eyes 'evolved' over time.  The 'better' the eye, the more likely the beast would be 'naturally selected'.

Now you tell me that there are no 'partially blind' owls or eagles (partially evolved) They either have eyes or they do not ... is that it ??  This is not classic darwinism. So I fear that you've introduced heretical beliefs into the 'faith' of your fathers ...

There should be eagle fossils with no eyes, followed by eagle fossils with partial eyes ... etc



In an evironment, where eyes are highly usefull, a species that doesn´t have eyes will never stand a chance against those species with eyes.

So then how did eyes evolve? That is at the very crux of Darwins dilemna. The eye is too complex to have simply evolved over time and given anyone an 'advantage' with a non-functioning partially developed eye.

You yourself concede that a 'partial eye' is hardly better than no eye at all.

Are you now suggesting a 'new faith' (unobserved) where all animals all developed 'eyes' at the same time ?

That one is far harder to 'swallow' than the belief that a Creator 'created' these beings fully formed.

Try again.


You´re making a mistake by thinking, there could partially blind owls evolve while there are other birds in the same niche with fully usable eyes. Evolution favors working concepts and a half-blind owl is not a working concept, if it has to compare with species that are not half-blind...

NO you are making the reverse assumption to suit your 'faith' that there are birds with eyes to begin with,
EYES evolved remember. So we dont start with eyes and go backwards toward 'partial eyes' ... we take it on faith that birds start with no eyes and then developed them as part of natural selection.

Even 'Darwin' didnt have that much 'faith'


It´s different, if you look at an environment, where having eyes is notnecessary. Look at the deep see for example. There you´ll find species that do without eyes or that have really really big eyes. These can exist at the same time, cause it is possible to do as good without eyes. They "don´t have to see good" down there. It can be helpfull, but it´s not as important as it is, if the species lives in an evironment where they have a huge advantage with eyes.

But we are not talking about some sub-species of blob at the bottom of the ocean in the mirky dark. We are talking about birds and mammals on the earth. SHOW ME where they developed 'eyes' as part of a natural selection, survival of the fittest evolution.

Darwin acknowledged that the eye is far to complex for this to have occured by happenstance.

(as your 'faith' alleges)

All I am asking is SHOW ME the partially blind in the historical fossil record. There should be MILLIONS of them

Where are they ... or do we take in on 'faith' that they must exist ???


An atheist's most embarrassing moment is when he feels profoundly thankful for something,
but can't think of anybody to thank for it.