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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: What it feels like to post on this forum (from a newbie)
« Reply #58 on: November 23, 2014, 09:01:22 PM »
My point exactly. But when you converse with an atheist, they will say correctly (1) that atheism is not a worldview and (2) 'but science'... They then often proceed to have a debate about the various scientific proofs for things - which is not the debate at all. (It is actually strawman tactics?). Science is not the issue and the evidence that it produces is great/amazing/ etc etc. There IS no argument. But it is typically the atheists that claims 'science is true, therefore atheism...'. My argument is that science is true for the material world. It therefore cannot be used to debunk a worldview that includes and transcends science. This transcendence is based on a 'reasonable' faith. (reasons listed, not accepted).
I will return to this topic to juxtapose the two worldviews as a staring point later.


Christianity is different to all religions in that it is based on GRACE. All other religions ask followers to DO something to EARN their way to heaven. Well, if your god made you broken and incapable of being sin-free, but also demands that you earn your way to heaven, that sounds like an unfair deal to me. Hence all other religions are dismiss-able in my book.

Science therefore no storm god. Science therefore no sun god. Science therefore no fire god.

Do any of these look wrong to you? Science does disprove gods and that is why you hide behind pseudoscience. It is why bible literalists hide behind creationism and Intelligent Design. If science was not a threat to your beliefs you would actually be able to learn it and say something sensible about it.

Second, no one needs science to disprove christianity. A book full of fake texts says it all.

Last point, yes christianity is different to other religions in that it offers a free ticket. So if you have guessed the wrong religion you are really in hell. If there was a god, it would get its message across in a consistent way to the whole world much earlier than christianity, so other religions are much more likely to be correct, and other religions do not assume, as you suppose, that effort is futile.
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Offline Nam

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Re: What it feels like to post on this forum (from a newbie)
« Reply #59 on: November 23, 2014, 09:05:54 PM »
Hey Dennis: most atheists from heavily religious countries were formerly of the dominant religion of that country. Now, whether they came to atheism on their own may be minute compared to websites or places of this accord that actually promotes an open mind and regarding evidence as a means of proof rather than hope. In the religious "hope" is called "Faith" neither of which leads to reality.

People like you come here for validation, and nothing more. You're always going to lose the argument no matter the "tools" you collect on the way.

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This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline jaimehlers

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Re: What it feels like to post on this forum (from a newbie)
« Reply #60 on: November 23, 2014, 10:43:37 PM »
My point exactly. But when you converse with an atheist, they will say correctly (1) that atheism is not a worldview and (2) 'but science'...
Please provide actual examples of this.  I cannot really visualize what you're trying to convey with that second part.

Quote from: dennis
They then often proceed to have a debate about the various scientific proofs for things - which is not the debate at all. (It is actually strawman tactics?). Science is not the issue and the evidence that it produces is great/amazing/ etc etc. There IS no argument.
I'm glad you're willing to acknowledge this.

Quote from: dennis
But it is typically the atheists that claims 'science is true, therefore atheism...'.
Leaving aside the quibble about how science isn't actually true, but rather excludes things known to be false, I don't think I've ever heard an atheist trying to make this argument.  I'll admit that it's possible that there are atheists who make it, but the mere fact that some atheists might make this argument doesn't disqualify atheism in general.  What most atheists tend to argue is that what we've discovered through science tends to discredit the idea that a god is necessary for anything, because it shows that things that people thought were caused by gods actually have natural causes.

Quote from: dennis
My argument is that science is true for the material world.
Energy is not material.  Does that mean that science is not true for energy, in your view?

That was a rhetorical question.  I suspect that you will say that the answer is no, and that shows a flaw in this viewpoint of yours.  Science applies to more than simply material things.

Quote from: dennis
It therefore cannot be used to debunk a worldview that includes and transcends science. This transcendence is based on a 'reasonable' faith. (reasons listed, not accepted).
A worldview that cannot be debunked is a worldview that can be safely dismissed by others.  That's why the concept of falsifiability is so important.

Quote from: dennis
Christianity is different to all religions in that it is based on GRACE. All other religions ask followers to DO something to EARN their way to heaven. Well, if your god made you broken and incapable of being sin-free, but also demands that you earn your way to heaven, that sounds like an unfair deal to me. Hence all other religions are dismiss-able in my book.
Christians also have to do something to earn their way to heaven, according to every Christian theology I've ever heard of.  They have to believe that Jesus Christ is their savior, and most of them have additional requirements that the person must also abide by.  A person who doesn't believe this is not a Christian and thus doesn't benefit from this supposed grace.  If other religions are dismissible for requiring their adherents to earn their way to heaven through doing something, then Christianity itself is dismissible for requiring its adherents to earn their way to heaven by accepting Jesus Christ as their savior and all the other stuff that depends on the particular sect.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: What it feels like to post on this forum (from a newbie)
« Reply #61 on: November 23, 2014, 11:18:06 PM »
My point exactly. But when you converse with an atheist, they will say correctly (1) that atheism is not a worldview and (2) 'but science'... They then often proceed to have a debate about the various scientific proofs for things - which is not the debate at all. (It is actually strawman tactics?). Science is not the issue and the evidence that it produces is great/amazing/ etc etc. There IS no argument. But it is typically the atheists that claims 'science is true, therefore atheism...'.
dennis, you keep thinking the problem is ours, but it's yours.  You're not getting this at all. 

Look, science allows us to discover how the real world works.  The one we live in.  The one we can all pretty much agree on.  We're not saying it's good at everything.  We're not saying it is the be-all and end-all of discovery methods OK?  Are we done with this now?  We are in agreement on that.  Can we fucking move past it now and on to things that matter? 

It is not that 'science is true, therefore atheism'.  But it is about how destructive science can be toward theism.  The reason science is so destructive to religion is because it provides us with natural explanations for how reality functions.  When you have natural explanations, you no longer need supernatural ones. This has been proven time and time again, and for my money, the theory of evolution just pummels the idea of God into dust.  While you may feel justified in saying 'this is just how God set things up', this is a completely unnecessary step and provides us with absolutely no further understanding. 

An analogy for what you're doing here would be something akin to saying that the fairies in the dirt make the grass green; then finding out about chlorophyll and saying the grass is green because of chlorophyll because of the fairies. If you know what makes the grass green, and it's a completely natural process, then why the fuck do you still need to talk about the fairies? You can safely jettison that idea, can't you? 

My argument is that science is true for the material world. It therefore cannot be used to debunk a worldview that includes and transcends science.
We aren't trying to use it to do that.  This is the point you have to get off of. We have been asking for another methodology that we can use, and you've given us nothing to work with. You can't say 'faith' because that's not useful here.  You really could be wrong, and not only that, if we are to use faith as reasonable evidence, then the faiths of every person on the planet should be taken into consideration as evidence for the existence of their particular god or gods as well.   

What science allows us to do, however, is give reasonable, natural, non-deity based explanations for a ridiculously large number of things in the universe. If you have that, then God slowly drifts toward becoming an unnecessary explanatory force, and it just dies out.  Just like the fairies in the garden.  And lets just say the trend is moving that direction, don't you think?  I mean seriously... can you think of any single phenomena for which there was once a scientific explanation, that was overturned by a religious one?  It doesn't happen. And then, can you think of any phenomena for which a religious explanation once held sway that was overturned in favor of a scientific one?  They are all over the place, and every single day there are more of them. Science is pushing the necessity of God as an explanatory force right out the window. When is it finally going to be safe to say that he's just not fucking there? Do we have to know every single detail about the universe in order to recognize the massive shift in the legitimacy of natural claims over the supernatural ones? Isn't it now perfectly reasonable to think that if we don't know the answer to something, regardless of what it is, that it's a relatively safe bet that there is a natural explanation? 

So again, it's not that we are applying science to the study of God.  We aren't.  We aren't looking for God under a microscope and saying 'Nope, no God here!' and then concluding atheism is true.  We aren't trying to hold up a tape measure to the sky and saying 'Nope, can't measure God, therefore atheism!'.  We are simply applying science to the study of reality, and coming up with natural explanation after natural explanation, which, in turn, decreases the necessity of God as an explanatory force.  It's really that simple.   

Christianity is different to all religions in that it is based on GRACE. All other religions ask followers to DO something to EARN their way to heaven. Well, if your god made you broken and incapable of being sin-free, but also demands that you earn your way to heaven, that sounds like an unfair deal to me. Hence all other religions are dismiss-able in my book.
Do you really dismiss all other religions because you think they are unfair?  Do you normally use the fairness of a position as a determining factor behind what is true or not true?  If your best friend was shot in the face, would you dismiss the claim that he was shot in the face simply because you felt it was unfair for him to be shot?   

What does the notion that Christianity is different from other religions have to do with whether or not it's true, anyway?  Scientology is super-duper different... does that make it more true? 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Chronos

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Re: What it feels like to post on this forum (from a newbie)
« Reply #62 on: November 24, 2014, 12:31:24 AM »

ASIDE: Has anyone who frequents this site changed their view (either way?)


Yes, but some of them have left and no longer post here. A couple were eventually banned. All in all, there were perhaps 12 or more. If screwtape says there were 14, then that means I wasn't watching closely enough.

Personally, I arrived an atheist and have remained so, more balanced and rooted in my position than ever before. Nevertheless, the wealth of information offered by members of this forum through their own research has enlightened me in ways I was not expecting. Some people have made it a career (it seems) in picking apart the bible page by page. My fundamental viewpoint is that the god commonly described simply cannot exist so the associated life manual is bogus, too. Still, the way people can tear apart the bible and throw it back at people is amazing. It really does show that atheists more often know the bible better than Christians. Though that is likely not the kind of change in view that you were looking for.


About your OP ...

The basic difference to visiting here as opposed to visiting a Christian forum is like viewing two facets of the same finely cut stone of human behavior.

People who self-identify as atheists aren't likely to take much shit sitting down. Atheists have long been given crap about how they are devil-spawn hell-dwellers who just want to spread evil about the world. Certainly, by my definition of an atheist, there are many more atheists in the world than merely those who self-identify, but among those who voluntarily describe themselves as atheists they will come out fighting and exacting a pound of flesh. They have been shoved into corners and basements for a long time. So when you make any kind of assertion, it will be picked apart like a coroner doing an autopsy.

People who self-identify as Christian are certainly not all fundy nut-jobs. The more casual Christians just want to have a feel-good relationship with a savior, share a few poignant bible verses to fit whatever mood they are in and seek kinship with people who can make them feel better about themselves. Since the US is predominantly Christian, being Christian makes you part of the "in" crowd. Most Christians are actually looking for a social self-help group. It's like Weight Watchers for the soul. These people do not examine in complex or precise ways that which they are claiming to believe. They pick and choose their beliefs like fruit at a stand in the local farmer's market.

If atheists visit a Christian forum and discuss their thoughts openly, then those atheists will be kicked out like rats infesting a fruit stand. No cross-cultural interaction, no safe rooms, just the eject button. If Christians (or other believers) visit an atheist forum, they will be picked apart like science experiments. While you may not care for my comparison of the two situations, my comparison is apt. Whether one response is summarily eradicating rats and the other is picking apart a science experiment, which of the two approaches will be more methodical and exacting? Which of the two are more accurate and fair?

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Offline dennis

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Re: What it feels like to post on this forum (from a newbie)
« Reply #63 on: November 24, 2014, 03:44:27 AM »

ASIDE: Has anyone who frequents this site changed their view (either way?)


Yes, but some of them have left and no longer post here. A couple were eventually banned. All in all, there were perhaps 12 or more. If screwtape says there were 14, then that means I wasn't watching closely enough.

Personally, I arrived an atheist and have remained so, more balanced and rooted in my position than ever before. Nevertheless, the wealth of information offered by members of this forum through their own research has enlightened me in ways I was not expecting. Some people have made it a career (it seems) in picking apart the bible page by page. My fundamental viewpoint is that the god commonly described simply cannot exist so the associated life manual is bogus, too. Still, the way people can tear apart the bible and throw it back at people is amazing. It really does show that atheists more often know the bible better than Christians. Though that is likely not the kind of change in view that you were looking for.


About your OP ...

The basic difference to visiting here as opposed to visiting a Christian forum is like viewing two facets of the same finely cut stone of human behavior.

People who self-identify as atheists aren't likely to take much shit sitting down. Atheists have long been given crap about how they are devil-spawn hell-dwellers who just want to spread evil about the world. Certainly, by my definition of an atheist, there are many more atheists in the world than merely those who self-identify, but among those who voluntarily describe themselves as atheists they will come out fighting and exacting a pound of flesh. They have been shoved into corners and basements for a long time. So when you make any kind of assertion, it will be picked apart like a coroner doing an autopsy.

People who self-identify as Christian are certainly not all fundy nut-jobs. The more casual Christians just want to have a feel-good relationship with a savior, share a few poignant bible verses to fit whatever mood they are in and seek kinship with people who can make them feel better about themselves. Since the US is predominantly Christian, being Christian makes you part of the "in" crowd. Most Christians are actually looking for a social self-help group. It's like Weight Watchers for the soul. These people do not examine in complex or precise ways that which they are claiming to believe. They pick and choose their beliefs like fruit at a stand in the local farmer's market.

If atheists visit a Christian forum and discuss their thoughts openly, then those atheists will be kicked out like rats infesting a fruit stand. No cross-cultural interaction, no safe rooms, just the eject button. If Christians (or other believers) visit an atheist forum, they will be picked apart like science experiments. While you may not care for my comparison of the two situations, my comparison is apt. Whether one response is summarily eradicating rats and the other is picking apart a science experiment, which of the two approaches will be more methodical and exacting? Which of the two are more accurate and fair?


(To ALL other respondents to my pies: I will address the science/worldview thing in a separate post about worldviews so I will let the comments rest for a moment.)

@Chronos: Most of what you say here in the last part is pretty true in my view too. I don't know what it feels like to participate in Christian forums and definitely don't know what it feels like to be an atheist on those forums. It is a pretty sad indictment on the state o thought in the Church - but that is what happens when you are spoilt with (inherited) power to influence society through government; and not through conviction of the core ideas.

1. I don't participate, because I find there is no much to gain. I read articles and blogs (and web-based publications) but rarely comments and don't even know OF a forum. To me getting a bunch of people who believe in the same thing sitting around in a circle-jerk of conformity will rarely result in growth. (I must say that baffles my mind about this forum as well and I may opine about that in the future.)

2. I said it before and I say it in my 'tagline' that I basically think the rise of atheism is a good thing to weed out the 'true believers'. God himself hates the lukewarm you describe above...


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Offline screwtape

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Re: What it feels like to post on this forum (from a newbie)
« Reply #64 on: November 24, 2014, 10:00:16 AM »
I did not arrive at my views by accident.

This is probably a lot less true than you think.   

I don't expect it to be changed.

And that's the difference.  I expect to learn something all the time.  And learning changes people.  That might not be a gigantic change in world view, but it is still a change.  And over time I try to reassess what I think I know.  I don't have expectations as to what direction it will go.  When you are looking for Elvis in the clouds, you will usually find him, ya know what I mean?

(Seems most people have never changed theirs anyway - from 'conversion' comments - so maybe I am just being honest.)

This is true.  You are being half honest.  You are still holding onto the illusion of being open minded.  Most people - the overwhelming majority - are narrow minded gits.  And they all say, "I'm totally open minded!" because that is how we think we are supposed to be.  We believe being open minded is a good thing, so we believe in that belief.  But really, almost everyone is closed minded.

That does not mean we should be like them. Being open minded is work.  And you have to get yourself accustomed to admitting you are wrong about big things. Things you think are important and hold dear.  Funny.  The etymology of "believe" is germanic galauben - to hold dear, to love.  You have to let go of ideas you love, because they are wrong.

It would be extremely destabilising to have your worldview change.

Not as much as you might think.

I would argue that if you change your worldview it is because you never thought about it seriously in the first place.

In some cases, that is probably true.  In my case, not so much. In the case of most of us here, not so much.  Theists imagine and argue all sorts of things about atheists and atheism.  Almost all of it is... inaccurate.

its kinda like being married. I don't enter into the relationship expecting it to fail - I expect it to grow stronger as I get to know her. And if I chose well, comparing her with other women will make love her more not less. Shit happens but that is the attitude. I don't think it closed minded, it is commitment to a choice.

It is nothing like being married.  That is a terrible analogy.  dennis, I don't want to denigrate you, but this is a really bad way to approach knowledge.  Really, really bad.  Your only commitment should be to the best understanding of reality.  Making a commitiment to a choice or a point of view, is a commitment to irrationality.  It means you are going to hang on to ideas even if you find better ones.  For what?  You don't owe wrong ideas anything, even if you love them.  The wrong ideas aren't going to love you back.  They are going to betray you every moment of your life. 

Anyway, this is off topic. 

Any other thoughts on how to encourage theists to stay a bit longer?

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Offline screwtape

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Re: What it feels like to post on this forum (from a newbie)
« Reply #65 on: November 24, 2014, 10:08:50 AM »
Everyone,

this is not a debate thread.  Please let's stay on topic, which is "What it feels like to post on this forum (from a newbie)"

Thanks.




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Re: What it feels like to post on this forum (from a newbie)
« Reply #66 on: November 24, 2014, 10:18:18 AM »
Any other thoughts on how to encourage theists to stay a bit longer?

Yes, moderate the replies that they get until they become acclimatized.

Have them in a toddlers pool, a bit like the shelter but with no topics or posters barred, before they get to swim with the sharks in the open ocean of WWGHA.

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Re: What it feels like to post on this forum (from a newbie)
« Reply #67 on: November 24, 2014, 10:42:53 AM »
Yes, moderate the replies that they get until they become acclimatized.

How would you like them moderated? We have rules already.  And we mostly moderate to those rules.  So, can you tell me specifically how we would do things differently?

Have them in a toddlers pool, a bit like the shelter but with no topics or posters barred,

Bold mine.  I don't understand.  How would the toddlers' pool work?  And please try to use a different name. "Toddlers' pool" is less than complimentary.


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Re: What it feels like to post on this forum (from a newbie)
« Reply #68 on: November 24, 2014, 11:04:09 AM »

How would you like them moderated? We have rules already.  And we mostly moderate to those rules.  So, can you tell me specifically how we would do things differently?

True, there are rules already. However I do think the initial barrage of, what can be perceived as, hostile responses is off putting.
Ideally until the poster gets to a certain number of posts the replies to their posts are moderated to take out the overtly hostile/antagonistic replies.

I realise this is probably unworkable.

Have them in a toddlers pool, a bit like the shelter but with no topics or posters barred,

Bold mine.  I don't understand.  How would the toddlers' pool work?  And please try to use a different name. "Toddlers' pool" is less than complimentary.

How would it work: A seperate section of the forum where more established posters have to request entry. I suppose this wouldn't work unless some posters were barred.

Toddlers pool was an analogy not a serious suggestion of a name. IDK what you would call it.
The decompression chamber?
The New posters forum?
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Offline screwtape

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Re: What it feels like to post on this forum (from a newbie)
« Reply #69 on: November 24, 2014, 11:25:53 AM »
thanks for clarifying.

How would it work: A seperate section of the forum where more established posters have to request entry. I suppose this wouldn't work unless some posters were barred.

You just described the Shelter.  This, and all the stuff you posted and I trimmed out, is exactly how the Shelter is supposed to work.  The problem with the Shelter is theists don't post there.  And when they have been confined there, they have complained about bias and prejudice and being in jail and poor me etc.

All the things dennis has brought up should theoretically be addressed by him posting in the Shelter.  I've offered it to him twice.  Should it be mandatory?  Should it require a certain number of posts to get out?  Should it be a judgment call, made by staff on a case by case basis? 

Toddlers pool was an analogy not a serious suggestion of a name.

Yes, I understood.  I just didn't want to keep using the term.  It comes off more than a little derogatory, I think.

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Re: What it feels like to post on this forum (from a newbie)
« Reply #70 on: November 24, 2014, 11:36:43 AM »
thanks for clarifying.

You're welcome


You just described the Shelter.  This, and all the stuff you posted and I trimmed out, is exactly how the Shelter is supposed to work.  The problem with the Shelter is theists don't post there.  And when they have been confined there, they have complained about bias and prejudice and being in jail and poor me etc.

All the things dennis has brought up should theoretically be addressed by him posting in the Shelter.  I've offered it to him twice.  Should it be mandatory?  Should it require a certain number of posts to get out?  Should it be a judgment call, made by staff on a case by case basis?

Mandatory would seem to be the only way as you have said theists don't like it. However if it was everyone new that may make it seem less like a punishment?

There are post quota for other activities on the forum so why not for full access to the forum.
There could be a commentary, as in the debate threads, for other people to comment on the stuff in the shelter-type-area.

Just a suggestion.

The real questions is how do you stop people from being assholeish on the internet? The answer is you can't.

Toddlers pool was an analogy not a serious suggestion of a name.

Yes, I understood.  I just didn't want to keep using the term.  It comes off more than a little derogatory, I think.

It does, you're right. We'll leave that there.

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Re: What it feels like to post on this forum (from a newbie)
« Reply #71 on: November 24, 2014, 11:54:33 AM »
Any other thoughts on how to encourage theists to stay a bit longer?

I do have a suggestion, but it'll make a lot of work for someone like yourself.

To ease new theists in, create a one-on-one section with the theist and mod/s. The theist makes their post while the rest of us can still respond as we wish... but in a separate section hidden from the theist. This is where the mods work comes in to collate the responses to the theist, and pick out where the best, most valid and common points arise. This means they don't get barraged and feel as much pressure, they can also get a good sense of how the board is and operates (rather than individual members) and we can all get a sense of them. Once they feel settled, let them lose.

Of course, the big downside is is that it is a chore for the one/s collating and responding.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: What it feels like to post on this forum (from a newbie)
« Reply #72 on: Yesterday at 03:43:52 PM »
To me the name "shelter" is condescending plus it seems I'm being unfair by posting there because I'm basically ignoring some people (those that can't post there), based on criteria that is completely unknown to me.

As far as naming conventions, some other online communities have "regular" rooms and "underground" rooms.  In this case the "shelter" would be more like the "regular" room and what's now "general" would be "underground" although "underground" may not be the best name.  You guys may also want to consider that it may not be only believers that may be turned off by certain behaviors.  Just because someone is an atheist doesn't mean they wouldn't rather have a place for civil discussion.

Also, moving the room up higher on the forum to increase it's visibility may help too.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: What it feels like to post on this forum (from a newbie)
« Reply #73 on: Yesterday at 05:00:38 PM »
There needs to be a section which theists can see and want to be involved in.

How about a section called - try to convert an atheist- which could be where a theist can choose someone and attempt to convert them to their way of thinking. It is a risk but more tempting for the theist. The theist could take the lead and the atheist can only make objections.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: What it feels like to post on this forum (from a newbie)
« Reply #74 on: Yesterday at 07:21:07 PM »
^^^^ Oooh! Oooh! Convert me! Me me me me me!

Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: What it feels like to post on this forum (from a newbie)
« Reply #75 on: Yesterday at 09:03:29 PM »
I also would welcome the conversion immersion version. ;D :angel:

BTW, as far as changing views, most of us atheists have already changed our views--away from religion to atheism. It is hard to not be exposed to all sorts of religious expression and belief. It is easy for a religious person to avoid serious engagement with atheist ideas, because atheists keep quiet in many settings where religion dominates.

Religious views get automatic respect in most public forums. On a given day I get lots of people saying religious things to me at work, and elsewhere.  I have to smile and accept their remarks as if I thought they were real. Just today I listened to a very long serious news interview on BBC about the views of the current pope. Nobody on the news program would dare suggest that the Catholic faith is all made up, and the pope is therefore a fake leader. Imagine if the BBC featured a world affairs segment on Harry Potter as if it was real, and seriously discussed the changing role of Snape as opposed to Dumbledore. That is what the news show was like to me.

Most non-believers learn to keep our heads down and mouths shut IRL.  The upcoming holidays will provide many examples of atheists having to pretend to say grace before meals, to attend religious services at the request of relatives, to smile politely and let religious commentary slide to keep the peace. It is not surprising that some atheists let everything fly here.

On the other hand, well, there is not really another hand. How often are religious people expected to pretend to be atheists, to smile politely or keep quiet when people make comments that deny their religious belief, to attend atheist events to keep family members happy, etc? To attend mock FSM dinners or the Darwin worship services with grandma?

There are theists who come here and say they used to be atheists, but in our discussions, it turns out they were just regular "sinners", not particularly religious but not exactly atheists. I would love to hear from a bona fide hard core atheist who had a religious conversion. That would be forum gold.

In my years here, I have become more atheist than I ever was. Thanks for all the godless support!
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: What it feels like to post on this forum (from a newbie)
« Reply #76 on: Today at 02:47:50 AM »
we could a room for FAG's to hang out;

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