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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: epidemic explains racism
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2015, 05:42:37 PM »
I don't think epidemic can imagine being in a situation where it might not be wise to cooperate with police. I can.

I refused to get into a police car once, and firmly insisted on walking to the police station to be arrested while the police drove slowly behind me. They could have shot me for resisting. Why did I not get into the car as ordered? Because there have been times when police were known for pulling people over for expired license plates, etc, and then assaulting black women under the guise of "strip searching" them.

There was an assumption that all black women were either drug dealers or prostitutes or both and who care about them, right?

They threatened to do it to my mother, a 50-something schoolteacher and only relented when she began to cry. I wish I was making this up. :(

Can you imagine your mother going through that, epidemic? No, I did not think so.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Online Jag

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Re: epidemic explains racism
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2015, 08:11:43 PM »
I'm working on a paper on systemic racism and have marked this information for review as a potential source. It seems appropriate to add it to this discussion. I'm a bit surprised to discover that this is not a widely recognized problem, but from a social science perspective, it's interesting to watch this thread unfold - people easily accept new information that aligns with what they already believe, and resist or reject that which disputes it.

DISCLAIMER: I have not yet verified the research or supporting evidence referenced in this article.

Quoted from: 11 facts about racial discrimination
1.   African-Americans comprise only 13% of the U.S. population and 14% of the monthly drug users, but are 37% of the people arrested for drug-related offenses in America.
2.   Studies show that police are more likely to pull over and frisk blacks or Latinos than whites. In New York City, 80% of the stops made were blacks and Latinos, and 85% of those people were frisked, compared to a mere 8% of white people stopped.
3.   After being arrested, African-Americans are 33% more likely than whites to be detained while facing a felony trial in New York.
4.   In 2010, the U.S. Sentencing Commission reported that African Americans receive 10% longer sentences than whites through the federal system for the same crimes.
5.   In 2009 African-Americans are 21% more likely than whites to receive mandatory minimum sentences and 20% more likely to be sentenced to prison than white drug defendants.
6.   In a 2009 report, 2/3 of the criminals receiving life sentences were non-whites. In New York, it is 83%.
7.   African Americans make up 57% of the people in state prisons for drug offenses.
8.   The U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics concluded that an African American male born in 2001 has a 32% chance of going to jail in his lifetime, while a Latino male has a 17% chance, and a white male only has a 6% chance.
9.   In 2012, 51% of Americans expressed anti-black sentiments in a poll; a 3% increase from 2008.
10.   A survey in 2011 revealed that 52% of non-Hispanic whites expressed anti-Hispanic attitudes.
11.   Reports show that nearly 50% of Americans under 18 are minorities. The trend projects a reversal in the population where by 2030, the majority of people under 18 will be of color, and by 2042 nonwhites will be the majority of the U.S. population.
Sources
•   1 Quigley, Bill. "Fourteen Examples of Racism in Criminal Justice System." The Huffington Post. Accessed March 1, 2014, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-quigley/fourteen-examples-of-raci_b_658947.html.
•   2 U.S. Department of Justice. "The Reality of Racial Profiling." The Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights. Accessed March 1, 2014, http://www.civilrights.org/publications/reports/racial-profiling2011/the-reality-of-racial.html.
•   3 Quigley, Bill. "Fourteen Examples of Racism in Criminal Justice System." The Huffington Post. Accessed March 1, 2014, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-quigley/fourteen-examples-of-raci_b_658947.html.
•   4 Quigley, Bill. "Fourteen Examples of Racism in Criminal Justice System." The Huffington Post. Accessed March 1, 2014, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-quigley/fourteen-examples-of-raci_b_658947.html.
•   5 Kansal, Tushar. "Racial Disparity in Sentencing: A Review of the Literature." Edited by Marc Mauer. The Sentencing Project. March 1, 2014. http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/rd_sentencing_review.pdf.
•   6 Quigley, Bill. "Fourteen Examples of Racism in Criminal Justice System." The Huffington Post. Accessed March 1, 2014. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-quigley/fourteen-examples-of-raci_b_658947.html.
•   7 Sledge, Matt. "The Drug War And Mass Incarceration By The Numbers." The Huffington Post. Accessed March 2, 2014. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/08/drug-war-mass-incarceration_n_3034310.html.
•   8 Bonczar, Thomas P., and Allen J. Beck, Ph.D.. "Lifetime Likelihood of Going to State or Federal Prison." Bureau of Justice Statistics. Accessed March 1, 2014. http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/Llgsfp.pdf.
•   9 ROSS, SONYA, and JENNIFER AGIESTA. "AP POLL: MAJORITY HARBOR PREJUDICE AGAINST BLACKS." Associated Press: The Big Story. Accessed March 2, 2014. http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-poll-majority-harbor-prejudice-against-blacks.
•   10 ROSS, SONYA, and JENNIFER AGIESTA. "AP POLL: MAJORITY HARBOR PREJUDICE AGAINST BLACKS." Associated Press: The Big Story.Accessed March 2, 2014. http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-poll-majority-harbor-prejudice-against-blacks.
•   11 Jacobsen, Linda A., Mark Mather, Marlene Lee, and Mary Kent. "America's Aging Population." Population Reference Bureau. Accessed March 1, 2014. http://www.prb.org/pdf11/aging-in-america.pdf.


I'll share whatever interesting information, facts, statistics, and research findings if anyone is interested. I'm compiling it anyway. My focus is actually more on racism in media, but crime reporting on the news is part of my data. Social science orientation.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: epidemic explains racism
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2015, 08:36:11 PM »
I've noticed that tendency too, Jag, even in myself.  The difference is that I've trained myself to give things a second or even third look, and if what I'm seeing doesn't conform to what I expect to see, then I don't automatically assume that what I'm seeing is wrong.  I'm also working on trying to be more skeptical of things which agree with what I expected to see, although that's more difficult.

I wish more people were willing to do that.

Online Jag

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Re: epidemic explains racism
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2015, 08:39:43 PM »
Yes there are also dealers in suburbia,  But I suspect that they are mostly retailers who travel to the wholesale dealers in urban areas.

Sigh.

You provide nothing but anecdotal support for your suspicions, so here's some right back at you.

There's an area not far from where I live that could be fairly described as "semi-rural[1] red-neck" - most people have a pickup, a dog or two, and a few guns. They hunt and they prefer some space, most lots are 3-5 acres with a lot of trees. Everybody out there is white, middle class or less, and most people have some sort of recreational toy - a boat, or snowmobiles, or a motorcycle, stuff like that. There are miles and miles of these neighborhoods scattered all over in this part of the state, and there are still a fair number of small to mid-sized working farms as well.

And, for about five years or so, there was a HUGE meth problem there as well. Apparently, the area produced the majority of the crystal meth made in the entire state. And I assure you - there are NO black people in that area. NONE. Everyone involved was white.

There's a fair amount of "happy hemp" grown in that area as well. I know of three white people who have been arrested and charged, and all have received stay-ed sentences[2]. I know of a least half a dozen more that could be subject to the same situation. All of them are white.

So, do my collective examples outweigh yours? If not, I can give you lots more personal anecdotal support, in addition to the factual support I've offered in the previous post.
 1. It's not that far out from a major metro area, and real farm country is still some distance away
 2. I know that's not what it's actually called, but I don't know what the right phrase is for it.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 08:44:48 PM by Jag »
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Offline Timo

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Re: epidemic explains racism
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2015, 01:28:12 AM »
Some points.

Yeah because cops just let white people speed 80 mph in a 40 and chase black folks.  Or is it that more black folks speed excessively.

It's not so much that they always, as a matter of practice let whites go but not blacks as much as whites are merely more likely to either be let go or not stopped in the first place. Police are more likely to stop black drivers for traffic violations. This isn't to say that there aren't black people that are let go with a warning or white folks arrested over minor offences. We're talking aggregate numbers here. And there are numerous studies that have been conducted using data from numerous regions that back this up. The long and short of it is this. Not only are blacks (and to a lesser degree Hispanics) more likely to be stopped, they're more likely to be searched and they're more likely to be arrested. This is true even if the study is designed to control for the fact that blacks and Hispanics are more likely to live in higher crime areas. Conversely, police are more likely to find contraband on the white folks they stop.

Of course it is the white officers who try to oppress the black people by arresting black folks for black on black crime.  Maybe we should just let drug dealers run rampant in the black community and not police it.   That would help improve things.  Shop keeps will now be happy because cops can no longer arrest black people who rob their stores and or rough them up.  Do you seriously believe that 99.9% of the time white cops are victimizing black people?  How do you come to that conclusion?

I don't think that you've thought this through. The choice is not between the over-policing of black communities and complete withdrawal. And in any case, the style of policing that we experience now is often counterproductive. I grew up in what we're supposed to call South LA. I didn't come out of that with a whole lot of confidence in law enforcement. I grew up knowing that they were afraid of us, that they often didn't particularly like us, that they generally didn't care about us, and that a good many of them openly resented us. (There's a blog that anyone interested in this topic should be reading called Cop int he Hood by Peter Moskos, an academic who was a Baltimore City cop. He's very good for giving a rational police perspective on these sorts of issues, even if he's a bit too deferential to police and over-eager to call out white liberals. But one thing that sticks out in my memory is his recollection of this sign that someone in the precinct had posted reading "Unlike the citizens of the Eastern District, you are required to work for your government check.."[1])

A lot of us are afraid of the police. We see them as heavy handed and likely to resort to violence for no good reason. So as much as I might not like that the punk kid down the way is roughing up the young man I have stocking the shelves at my little corner store, I might not dislike that enough to call the police if I think the police might beat the dog shit out of that boy or (worse) shoot him dead because they were scared when he reached for something. Better that I should just take the loss from that $1.49 bag of flaming hot fries he stole.

I am really speaking to the larger community who claim that black crime statistics are purely the result of racism.  The fact that I said this to you is merely coincidental.  There is certainly a lot of bias in the policing an conviction of black people.  However I seriously doubt the ratio of black people in prison would seriously shift if all racism was magically eliminated.  Most people convicted and imprisoned are there for their commission of a crime.   For black people the crimes were committed in their communities to their people.

Ultimately I would say that yes. In any group there will be some subset of the population that cannot follow the rules. So if there were somehow no racism there would still be black crime, just as there is white crime. Still, I would contend that the entire disparity between blacks and whites in terms of incidence of crime as well as convictions can be explained by racism, whether we're talking about selectively enforced laws, housing and employment discrimination, the transfer of wealth from black to white communities over the centuries, etc. To argue otherwise would be to argue that there is something innate in black people that predisposes us to crime.

Do you think that we're just more prone to crime? If so, what do you think explains that? Is it something in our DNA?
 1. http://www.copinthehood.com/2014/10/everywhere-signs.html
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 02:26:23 AM by Timo »
Nah son...

Offline epidemic

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Re: epidemic explains racism
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2015, 06:54:41 AM »
I don't think epidemic can imagine being in a situation where it might not be wise to cooperate with police. I can.

I refused to get into a police car once, and firmly insisted on walking to the police station to be arrested while the police drove slowly behind me. They could have shot me for resisting. Why did I not get into the car as ordered? Because there have been times when police were known for pulling people over for expired license plates, etc, and then assaulting black women under the guise of "strip searching" them.

There was an assumption that all black women were either drug dealers or prostitutes or both and who care about them, right?

They threatened to do it to my mother, a 50-something schoolteacher and only relented when she began to cry. I wish I was making this up. :(

Can you imagine your mother going through that, epidemic? No, I did not think so.


The rule is do not resist.  You can put forth all the outlier cases you want but it still does not make it wise to resist arrest.  Should I be afraid of every black man I see because there are cases where black men victimize white people.  Should I act belligerent to black security guard in the mall because there was a case of a black security guard abusing his suspects on the news last night.

You do not resist arrest because it is a tremendous statistical anomaly that you will be hurt by the police for complying. 

Analogy, my sister does not wear her seat belt because she afraid that the seat belt can kill her in certain situations.  She is absolutely right, there are outlier situations where wearing a seat belt results in death over the alternative.  crashing under a truck not being able to duck out of the way, a pipe coming through the windshield fire entrapment even where being ejected from a car is preferable to the alternative.   These are statistically unimportant to the safety of the passenger and seat belts are a good idea.  Don't resist police and things will turn out better than if you resist.

I can see the alternatives,  they are just ridiculous to consider seriously when determining what people should do during a police stop.

Quote
There was an assumption that all black women were either drug dealers or prostitutes or both and who care about them, right?


I am interested, do you have statistics?  I don't doubt that this happens, but I think when weighted against the alternative of resisting arrest the results will still be more favorable for the person who does not resist arrest and who is not belligerent.  As I see it your advice would be to resist, mine is to not resist who's clients do you think will end up with better outcomes?

Online Jag

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Re: epidemic explains racism
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2015, 07:09:58 AM »
^^^More anecdotal support right here.

I was with a white friend (I needed a truck and he had one) when we encountered his girlfriend (who is black) walking toward their house from a nearby store. We pulled over and my friend introduced us as she got in the truck with us - I just slid over (on girlfriend's instruction) as we were with 2 blocks of their (urban) house. None of us noticed the police car - but the cop driving certainly noticed us. He came up to us as we were putting on our seatbelts, and clearly assumed that my friend and I were a couple, picking up a black prostitute. All three of us had white collar jobs, and were dressed accordingly.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: epidemic explains racism
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2015, 08:25:01 AM »
I've noticed that tendency too, Jag, even in myself.  The difference is that I've trained myself to give things a second or even third look, and if what I'm seeing doesn't conform to what I expect to see, then I don't automatically assume that what I'm seeing is wrong.  I'm also working on trying to be more skeptical of things which agree with what I expected to see, although that's more difficult.

I wish more people were willing to do that.

it is a difficult technique used by rationalists and one that ought to be taught in schools.  It is called "noticing your confusion".[1][2][3]  Confusion indicates there is a discrepancy between your beliefs and reality, so you ought to spend some time either re-examining reality or adjusting your beliefs.

 1. http://lesswrong.com/lw/if/your_strength_as_a_rationalist/
 2. http://lesswrong.com/lw/jpu/a_selfexperiment_in_training_noticing_confusion/
 3. http://hpmor.com/chapter/26 you might want to read a few prior chapters (25 or so) to get the gist of what's going on.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: epidemic explains racism
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2015, 09:10:18 AM »
You do not resist arrest because it is a tremendous statistical anomaly that you will be hurt by the police for complying.
However, it is far less of a statistical anomaly for minorities than it is for white people like you and I, epidemic.  Not to mention, it isn't always physical harm.  I had a coworker who was arrested on false drug charges, along with his son and two other employees, all of whom were white; apparently (though this is hearsay from him), his son's ex-girlfriend apparently called the police and said he was dealing drugs out of his house.  As it turned out, his son was using drugs, and had hidden drugs in his house.  Because he complied with the police, they found his son's drugs and arrested both of them.  They eventually dismissed the charges based on lack of evidence, but all of the people arrested still lost their jobs job as a direct result of that incident.  Care to guess what the more likely result would have been if any of the people arrested had been black or even Hispanic?

I haven't talked to him about it for a while, but I got the distinct feeling that the officers didn't actually have a search warrant.  Plus, there was a lot of talk about "cooperation" in the news articles about the incident.  In this case, noncompliance would probably have been the better option.

Offline screwtape

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Re: epidemic explains racism
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2015, 10:04:49 AM »
You do not resist arrest because it is a tremendous statistical anomaly that you will be hurt by the police for complying. 

Way to completely miss the point, again.

Your point is a red herring.  It is not a question of whether resisting is okay.  It is a question of how the police treat people.  Everyone.  Is their response proportionate to the action?  Are the outcomes acceptable?  Do you want to be policed by men who will kill you for not complying with their commands?  Is that really what you want of society?  You seem to be saying "yes."

And as has been amply demonstrated - and as has not apparently penetrated your cranium - the police do not treat white and black people the same way.


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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: epidemic explains racism
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2015, 10:07:33 AM »
You do not resist arrest because it is a tremendous statistical anomaly that you will be hurt by the police for complying.
However, it is far less of a statistical anomaly for minorities than it is for white people like you and I, epidemic.  Not to mention, it isn't always physical harm.  I had a coworker who was arrested on false drug charges, along with his son and two other employees, all of whom were white; apparently (though this is hearsay from him), his son's ex-girlfriend apparently called the police and said he was dealing drugs out of his house.  As it turned out, his son was using drugs, and had hidden drugs in his house.  Because he complied with the police, they found his son's drugs and arrested both of them.  They eventually dismissed the charges based on lack of evidence, but all of the people arrested still lost their jobs job as a direct result of that incident.  Care to guess what the more likely result would have been if any of the people arrested had been black or even Hispanic?

I haven't talked to him about it for a while, but I got the distinct feeling that the officers didn't actually have a search warrant.  Plus, there was a lot of talk about "cooperation" in the news articles about the incident.  In this case, noncompliance would probably have been the better option.
Good point about the non-physical harm. It's like, would I rather unnecessarily lose my job, or unnecessarily get tackled to the ground? I think I'd rather get unnecessarily tackled to the ground.
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: epidemic explains racism
« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2015, 10:26:27 AM »

And as has been amply demonstrated - and as has not apparently penetrated your cranium - the police do not treat white and black people the same way.

It seems this is endemic of all police. I remember there being a big scandal over the use of stop and search powers in the UK.
Just looked it up[1] -

Quote
The Oxford research found that in the first year after Macpherson's report in 1999-2000, the stop rate for black people was 4.9 per 100 population. By 2009-10, the rate was 10.8 per 100 black people in Britain.
 
The rate also nearly doubled for Asian people, while for white people it only marginally increased from 1.5 to 1.6 stops per 100 citizens.

Black people are 10 times more likely to be stopped in the UK than white people. That. is. just. crazy/racist.
 1. http://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/apr/22/ethnic-minority-britons-stop-search-white

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: epidemic explains racism
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2015, 10:47:09 AM »
Yeah, I am not surprised that epidemic missed the point. I did not resist arrest. I was arrested.

I resisted getting into a car with men I did not trust. That is female survival 101. Never get into a car with a man you do not trust. I do not care if they have a badge and a gun. I did not trust them. Therefore I let them arrest me, but did not get out of the sight of public view.

Anyone else notice the irony of someone advocating gun ownership as a way to resist the tyranny of the government approving of that same government shooting people in the back for resisting the tyranny of the government? I guess only certain kinds of people are entitled to resist tyranny. Or maybe some of us just can't be trusted to know what tyranny is--unless a middle class white conservative man points it out to us? :?

Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: epidemic explains racism
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2015, 07:21:21 AM »
I suspect that in some part of epidemic's mind, he thinks where there's so much smoke, there has to be at least some fire.  As in, since black people get arrested at a higher rate than white people, black people must be more prone to commit crimes.  This is, unfortunately, a common, easy-to-make assumption.  If someone gets punished for something at a higher rate than someone else, they most likely did something to deserve the extra punishment.

Unlike a lot of white people, I can envision this a lot more readily, because I went through something like that when I grew up.  I had to deal with a lot of bullying (mostly verbal, but some physical) when I was growing up, primarily in elementary and junior high school, which I've said before.  What I haven't said is that, among other things, I was almost always the one who actually got in trouble, because I wouldn't put up with being bullied and fought back, usually literally.  Since most of the bullying was name-calling, I was seen as the one who actually started things by the teachers, who almost never observed the initial teasing that set me off (which was pretty much like waving a red flag in front of a bull, with as predictable of results).  The school system actually had me pegged with a "behavioral disorder" for a while, because they didn't consider my violent reaction to being harassed and bullied (though, of course, they didn't see it that way) to be normal, even though it is.

There's even a colloquial term for it.  "You mess with the bull, you get the horns."  If a group of people regularly harass someone for years, it doesn't matter if the person started out nice or not, they're going to become bitter and resentful, and if you push them too much, they'll snap.

Now, it's true that I can't fully envision what it must be like for black people because my experiences with harassment and bullying were personal.  But I'm perfectly capable of extrapolating to what it would have been like if my family, my friends, and people in the neighborhood, as a general class of people, were also regularly harassed and bullied, and I had learned to trust them and to not trust the general class of people who were responsible for the harassment and bullying, even though a particular member of that class may or may not have done anything.  For people, probably including epidemic, who have no experience of anything like this, it's a lot harder to recognize, never mind understand, the root causes for why black people tend to get in official trouble a lot more easily, and why they put up with it until they get so outraged that they can no longer hold back (which of course contributes to the public perception of black people, like a catch-22 with a vengeance).  Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: epidemic explains racism
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2015, 08:31:15 AM »
I don't think epidemic can imagine being in a situation where it might not be wise to cooperate with police. I can.
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Re: epidemic explains racism
« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2015, 01:47:01 PM »
One of his main points in the video is "what's the rush?". That's what I thought when he was talking.

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