Author Topic: The Conflicts of Interest -  (Read 1247 times)

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Offline stuffin

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Re: The Conflicts of Interest -
« Reply #87 on: January 06, 2017, 03:12:49 PM »
stuffin, you could have easily left off the entire second half of the quote, the part after the edit you inserted.  I'm not much of a fan of inserting responses into quotes to begin with, because more often than not it confuses the issue, but it's especially irritating when it isn't necessary in the first place.


This is one of the single most ridiculous things I've ever had the misfortune of reading.

Excuse my language, but what the fuck?!  Are you seriously saying that because the Republicans aren't thinking rationally, that we should stop thinking rationally too?  Whether you realize it or not, the ability to stay calm and think rationally is one of our best weapons against the sort of irrationality that the Republicans apparently espouse.  Throwing it away is tantamount to facing a maniac charging at you, swinging a club, and tossing your gun aside so you can try to fight them off on their terms.  Which is just plain stupid, no matter how you look at it.  As the saying goes, when you stoop to someone else's shitty tactics, you're just giving them the opportunity to beat you to death with experience.

Although you haven't directly called me a bad name, I take the implication(s) in your response as saying I'm stupid, irrational and irritating. Congratulation, your now qualify for Team Trump.

Also your first attack on me was to grade how I cut/copy/paste/quote in this forum, you could have made that a sidebar conversation as it has nothing to do with our conversation. FAIL

When I say we need to become like them, I'm referring to (and I've mentioned this to you before), changing our tactics on how we deal with them. Some of the BS they say and do is very effective, why should we ignore something that works? For instance, They stole a SC nomination because of their obstructionist behavior. They stole Governorships, Senate/House seats and the Presidency by gerrymandering, voter manipulation and disinformation. While I don't agree with the disinformation, the obstructionism, getting extremely aggressive registering and getting IDs for voters and figuring out a way to gerrymander in our favor are not weapons that should be ignored. So if that manic was coming at me swinging a club, my plan would be to take the club from him and beat him to death with his own weapon, I love irony.

Also, if you really want to understand my mindset, I recommend you watch "Unforgiven" with Clint Eastwood. Study his character (William Munny) and pay special attention to what makes him so good at killing. I was told 38 years ago by a savvy OR Nurse, The more excited people get in a critical/emergent situation, the calmer you have to get to be effective. Aim, Breath, Squeeze.

There are also times when crazy works too......

Your reference to the gun manic and club only made me think about the Indiana Jones scene with the whip, sword and gun, remember that one?

Do not deny yourself the use of any available weapon.

Waiting on compromise has been an ineffective tactic (for many fucking years now), why continue to do it?

EDIT:

PS, Screwtape understands.
The Greatest Story Ever Told Was So Wrong

Been Two thousand Years and He Ain't Shown Yet,

We Kept His Seat Warm and The Table Set.

The Greatest Story Ever Told Was so Wrong, So Wrong.

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Re: The Conflicts of Interest -
« Reply #88 on: January 06, 2017, 04:04:32 PM »
Everyone calm down. Don't be that which you despise.
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: The Conflicts of Interest -
« Reply #89 on: January 06, 2017, 04:27:42 PM »
Although you haven't directly called me a bad name, I take the implication(s) in your response as saying I'm stupid, irrational and irritating. Congratulation, your now qualify for Team Trump.
This coming from someone who responded with an ad hominem attack?  Not to mention saying that Democrats should use the same tactics as Republicans, which includes the kind of crap Trump likes to pull seeing as he is a Republican.  So you don't exactly have room to talk.

Quote from: stuffin
Also your first attack on me was to grade how I cut/copy/paste/quote in this forum, you could have made that a sidebar conversation as it has nothing to do with our conversation. FAIL
I didn't attack you in the first place, stuffin.  Even if I had, it still wouldn't justify your obvious attempt at retaliation.  And why do you think I put this in front of the quote, if not to separate it out from the remainder of my post?

Quote from: stuffin
When I say we need to become like them, I'm referring to (and I've mentioned this to you before), changing our tactics on how we deal with them. Some of the BS they say and do is very effective, why should we ignore something that works? For instance, They stole a SC nomination because of their obstructionist behavior. They stole Governorships, Senate/House seats and the Presidency by gerrymandering, voter manipulation and disinformation. While I don't agree with the disinformation, the obstructionism, getting extremely aggressive registering and getting IDs for voters and figuring out a way to gerrymander in our favor are not weapons that should be ignored. So if that manic was coming at me swinging a club, my plan would be to take the club from him and beat him to death with his own weapon, I love irony.
Changing tactics to more effective ones is not the same thing as becoming like them, stuffin.  But that's not what you were apparently advocating before - it sounded more like the equivalent of fighting fire with fire.  Which is not a particularly sensible thing to do under most circumstances.  There are a few, but it almost always involves using a very controlled fire to create a firebreak to stop a larger one.

I have no objection to discussing what tactics we should use, or even using distasteful ones so long as they help more than they hurt.  But what you were saying before was that we needed to adopt Republican tactics, but not adding qualifiers like "except disinformation and obstructionism".  People can't read your mind, stuffin, so if you just throw out a blanket, general statement, you shouldn't expect people to recognize the unsaid qualifiers that you left out.

Quote from: stuffin
Also, if you really want to understand my mindset, I recommend you watch "Unforgiven" with Clint Eastwood. Study his character (William Munny) and pay special attention to what makes him so good at killing. I was told 38 years ago by a savvy OR Nurse, The more excited people get in a critical/emergent situation, the calmer you have to get to be effective. Aim, Breath, Squeeze.
Which, you will note, is what I've been arguing for (more or less). 

Quote from: stuffin
There are also times when crazy works too......
Sure, as a last-ditch alternative if you have nothing else to try, and if you're willing to live with the consequences.

Quote from: stuffin
Your reference to the gun manic and club only made me think about the Indiana Jones scene with the whip, sword and gun, remember that one?

Do not deny yourself the use of any available weapon.
But at the same time, you need to make sure that it's a weapon that you can afford to use.  Some weapons are not worth using unless your actual survival is at stake, and political battles usually do not directly impact survival.

Quote from: stuffin
Waiting on compromise has been an ineffective tactic (for many fucking years now), why continue to do it?
I never said anything about trying tactics that clearly aren't working, you know.  One of the common ways by which people describe insanity is in someone doing the same thing over again and expecting different results.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline shnozzola

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Re: The Conflicts of Interest -
« Reply #90 on: January 06, 2017, 10:50:07 PM »
A little fun, for those of us that like The Big Lebowski

We have guided missiles and misguided men.  ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

Offline screwtape

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Re: The Conflicts of Interest -
« Reply #91 on: January 07, 2017, 01:49:02 AM »
By the way, screwtape, I wanted to apologize.  When I said "shut up and multiply", it was a Less Wrong reference.  I should not have assumed that you would get the reference just because it stuck in my head.

https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Shut_up_and_multiply - in case you're interested in reading about it.

Thank you.  I appreciate the clarification, the apology and the link.
What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline shnozzola

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Re: The Conflicts of Interest -
« Reply #92 on: January 08, 2017, 04:29:27 PM »
Good article about the soon to be  U.S. Commander-in-Chief

Quote
That’s how you move Trump. You don’t talk about ethics. You play the toughness card. You appeal to the art of the deal. You make him feel smart, powerful, and loved. You don’t forget how unmoored and volatile he is, but you set aside your fear and your anger. You thank God that you’re dealing with a narcissist, not a cold-blooded killer. And until you can get him safely out of the White House, you work with what you have. People in other countries have dealt with presidents like Trump for a long time. Can we handle it? Yes, we can.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/11/how_to_manipulate_donald_trump.html?wpsrc=kwfacebookdt&kwp_0=284879&kwp_4=1144409&kwp_1=525300
We have guided missiles and misguided men.  ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

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Re: The Conflicts of Interest -
« Reply #93 on: January 08, 2017, 05:22:56 PM »
Trump's tweets devalued Toyota stocks by millions. The proven impact of his tweets on the stock market is a possible avenue for insider trading.

I don't think any individual in history has demonstrated this much power over the stick market in 140 characters or less.

Very real, very powerful.
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: The Conflicts of Interest -
« Reply #94 on: January 08, 2017, 06:37:22 PM »
Trump's tweets devalued Toyota stocks by millions. The proven impact of his tweets on the stock market is a possible avenue for insider trading.

I don't think any individual in history has demonstrated this much power over the stick market in 140 characters or less.

Very real, very powerful.

Sorry eh! but that is bullshit. Algorithms control the stock market, not people. 

Edit to add link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_trading_system
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 06:46:27 PM by Mr. Blackwell »
When I criticize political parties or candidates, I am not criticizing you. If I criticize you, there will be no doubt in your mind as to what I am saying.

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Re: The Conflicts of Interest -
« Reply #95 on: January 08, 2017, 07:26:08 PM »
You have not grasped the concept of consumer confidence or the multitude of factors that cause people to buy and sell. The whole thing psychology and perceived risk / gain.

The algorithms need triggers to implement, those triggers are what a lot of individuals think and feel.

Did you not see how trump has said/wrote things that have had a direct impact on shares.

Way to miss the point entirely.
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: The Conflicts of Interest -
« Reply #96 on: January 08, 2017, 10:38:56 PM »
You have not grasped the concept of consumer confidence or the multitude of factors that cause people to buy and sell. The whole thing psychology and perceived risk / gain.

The algorithms need triggers to implement, those triggers are what a lot of individuals think and feel.

Did you not see how trump has said/wrote things that have had a direct impact on shares.

Way to miss the point entirely.

From the wiki link
Quote
As of 2014, more than 75 percent of the stock shares traded on United States exchanges (including the New York Stock Exchange and NASDAQ) originate from automated trading system orders

Surely the percentage of automated trades are higher today. Even if it's still only 3/4 of the market being traded by computer programs...what makes you so sure it wasn't the recall that has made Toyota's stock prices drop?

http://corporatenews.pressroom.toyota.com/releases/toyota-prius-recall-oct12.htm
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Re: The Conflicts of Interest -
« Reply #97 on: January 08, 2017, 10:46:20 PM »
Because Trump's tweet was after the recall.
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: The Conflicts of Interest -
« Reply #98 on: January 08, 2017, 10:52:29 PM »
https://www.google.com/search?site=&source=hp&q=toyota+stock+prices&oq=toyota+stock+prices&gs_l=hp.3..0l2j0i22i30k1l8.486.6587.0.7155.25.21.2.0.0.0.348.3266.0j6j6j2.14.0....0...1.1.64.hp..9.16.3261...0i131k1j0i10k1.GE9KK-o5xSQ

Dude...seriously...click this google link and look at the charts for 1 day, 5 day, 1 month, 3 month, 1 year and 5 year and tell me exactly when Trump caused their stock prices to change because of a tweet.
When I criticize political parties or candidates, I am not criticizing you. If I criticize you, there will be no doubt in your mind as to what I am saying.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: The Conflicts of Interest -
« Reply #99 on: January 08, 2017, 11:26:18 PM »
Or, if you insist on giving Trump credit for how stocks perform then you must applaud him for the records broken since he was elected.

http://fortune.com/2016/12/15/dow-20000-stock-market-record/
Quote
Hitting 20,000 would not only mark a new record level for the Dow, which has been setting new records almost every trading day since Donald Trump won the election, it would also break a much rarer record for speed. The last time the Dow Jones industrial average rose 1,000 points so quickly was in May 1999, in the middle of dot-com hysteria. And that time it took 35 days for the Dow to go from 10,000 to 11,000, according to S&P Global.

If you want to blame him for shit he has no control over, then you must also be willing to give him credit for the same shit he has no control over.

When I criticize political parties or candidates, I am not criticizing you. If I criticize you, there will be no doubt in your mind as to what I am saying.

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Re: The Conflicts of Interest -
« Reply #100 on: January 09, 2017, 01:20:22 AM »
By all means, his promises of massive infrastructure spending and military spending boosted those stocks.

All of which supports my claim that his tweets and comments have a demonstrable and real impact on the stock market, this can be both good and bad but it could leave him open to claims of potential insider trading.

You cannot convince me his tweets have not directly caused  stock market changes, including Toyota shares.
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline shnozzola

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Re: The Conflicts of Interest -
« Reply #101 on: January 15, 2017, 08:44:53 AM »
Here's Rachel Maddow, speaking about the FBI quietly getting info about Trump/Russia during summer 2016, while Comey was publicly giving out info on the infamous Hillary emails.


We have guided missiles and misguided men.  ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: The Conflicts of Interest -
« Reply #102 on: January 15, 2017, 10:52:34 AM »
You cannot convince me his tweets have not directly caused  stock market changes, including Toyota shares.
This reminds me of the saying that you can't reason someone out of a false belief that they didn't reason themselves into.

You haven't shown the slightest bit of real evidence to support the claims you're making about Trump.  Instead, you're committing the causation-correlation fallacy by pointing to Trump tweets followed by stocks rising or falling and assuming that the one caused the other.  Moreover, you're failing to understand that it isn't the responsibility of other people to argue you out of it; it's your responsibility to make sure your beliefs cohere with reality, and to argue yourself out of them if they don't.  That means you need to have actual evidence to support them, not base them on sketchy reasoning and worse logic.

That means you need to do more than just point to an increase or decrease that followed a Trump tweet, as that's no better than arguing that bird migrations cause seasons because seasons follow bird migration patterns.
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Offline jetson

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Re: The Conflicts of Interest -
« Reply #103 on: January 15, 2017, 01:15:46 PM »
Here's Rachel Maddow, speaking about the FBI quietly getting info about Trump/Russia during summer 2016, while Comey was publicly giving out info on the infamous Hillary emails.



Sadly, I see nothing significant coming out of this thanks to the GOP and their thirst for unchecked power with no regard for the citizens of this country or our democracy. Now that Trump is in place, there will be no one left in the government, or any other agency that will have the power to do anything. I'd be happy to be wrong about this, but I fear there is no reason to think I am wrong.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: The Conflicts of Interest -
« Reply #104 on: January 15, 2017, 01:32:20 PM »
Here's Rachel Maddow, speaking about the FBI quietly getting info about Trump/Russia during summer 2016, while Comey was publicly giving out info on the infamous Hillary emails.



Sadly, I see nothing significant coming out of this thanks to the GOP and their thirst for unchecked power with no regard for the citizens of this country or our democracy. Now that Trump is in place, there will be no one left in the government, or any other agency that will have the power to do anything. I'd be happy to be wrong about this, but I fear there is no reason to think I am wrong.
Yep, George, it's over...

Offline shnozzola

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Re: The Conflicts of Interest -
« Reply #105 on: January 16, 2017, 04:56:53 PM »
"Trump's cabinet pick [for Health and Human Services] invested in company, then introduced a bill to help it"

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/16/politics/tom-price-bill-aiding-company/index.html?adkey=bn
We have guided missiles and misguided men.  ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.