You saying that to me does nothing, because you are not me, and I am not you. This is my problem with atheism. You guys, claiming that others are close-minded, are being close-minded on any form of a proof or possibility of a God or Gods or Goddess or Goddesses existing. If you Truly weren’t close-minded on this, why aren’t you calling yourself an agnostic?
This comes up a LOT, in discussions with christians who really don't understand what certain words mean so I'll field this one. A lot of people misunderstand the meaning of agnostic. They think that it's an uncertain halfway point between belief and non-belief. It isn't however.
Most atheists are agnostic. Agnostic means "without knowledge" this is different from a belief. A gnostic is one who claims certain knowledge about his belief. Whereas agnostic is one who does not claim certain knowledge about his belief. It is not, strictly speaking, a belief in and of itself. Instead it refers to how you view your belief.
Take yourself for example. You believe in the existence of a personal god. This makes you a theist. However you do not (as near as I can see) claim to have certain knowledge of the existence of your god. This makes you an "agnostic" theist.
If you came on here and told us all that there was no doubt in your mind that god existed, that would make you a "gnostic" theist. This would be because you were claiming absolute certainty of your beliefs.
By that same token, if you ask atheists most of them will respond that they do not believe in god, but do not claim to know for certain whether he exists. Hence "agnostic" atheists. You will hear very few atheists make the claim that there is certainly no god. That would be illogical since you can't (with a few exceptions) prove a negative.
However, lacking any valid evidence for the existence of a god. The only logical option becomes non-belief. This is the point that is really trying to be made. Theists have been attempting to prove their gods for thousands of years and cannot do it. It is not about close-mindedness, it is about caring about what the truth is and what it isn't.
I really do appreciate the view btw. I do get what you are saying. For me, atheism = There is no God, and agnostic means there could be a God. That being what I saw is how I defined it.
For a while, I have called myself an agnostic theist, because I do believe in a god or gods, just from my research, life and existence have shown me the Christian God is the True One, but I have no problems discovering if it is indeed a lie or not. I just want the Ultimate Truth, not a tradition.
I'm currently giving Alzael a chance
How very condescending of you.
I heavily apologize for the statement. I was a bit pissy when writing that. You’ve been one of the much better individuals here.
I feel I can actually discuss with them and we can leave behind silly statements and crude remarks that Jeff and Graybeard have made.
What an amazing statement. Please provide examples of Jeff and Graybeard being silly or crude.
If you can't, consider apologizing for this blanket dismissal of their thoughtful posts.
Funny thing is... you ALL think YOUR version is right. It's so predictable. Even the way you approach things from this "hey guys, I'm really on your side" aspect. As if you are looking for our agreement in some things. Like you are trying to get our approval.
It's good to see you have no problem with self deception.
This is a little to to side of the main topic, but you have provided a perfect example of the thought that the average Christian gives to his beliefs.
Parking Places has outlined the logical errors in Genesis and the injustice perpetrated by the alleged creator, yet you simply have never seen these faults; yet you believe! Genesis, literal or metaphorical, is the foundation of the whole religion and you have never examined it critically.
Did you never think to examine what it is you have spent most of your life saying?
If none of this say anything, then I will honestly sense religious discrimination here.
Why couldn’t He have said it just the way ParkingPlaces said it? This post felt like a mockery of my views. Could my perception indeed be wrong? Yes, but the styles of postings, since we can’t meet in real life, are the only way I can perceive if one is willing, or if one is more into shoving their views down the other’s throat. I am neither individual, and I don’t pick apart verse by verse, because doing that, you can get any kind of message you want. I personally go chapter by chapter. I have examined it, and I can’t claim to have all the answers, nobody can.
By the end of the night, there is no Truth, only perceptions and interpretations. The Ultimate Truth of it all lies in Death, hence my username.
Death over Life,
I understand that it takes awhile to catch up with everyone you want to engage with. Especially in a situation like this, where you are trying to keep up with several of us. If you're feeling rushed or overwhelmed, just say so (as in fact you've done).
IIRC, Postal Girl said that we much prefer quality replies over quantity. Most of us understand it takes awhile to compose a response that is personally satisfying and will (hopefully) move the discussion / debate forward. Particularly as you seem to prefer posts that are substantial
Having said that... both you and Hguols clearly find the atmosphere of this forum at times unwelcoming as well as overwhelming. I think this is a combination of three factors: first, the discussion style here is admittedly aggressive compared to many other forums (though certainly not the most aggressive that I know of); many of the regulars have heard a lot of apologetics from believers and have little or no patience when they hear it yet again.
Second and obviously, this is a predominately atheist community. From what I've seen, many theist posters have not had much (if any) experience in discussions where they are in the minority. This is not meant as a slight, just a personal observation.
Lastly, I also get the impression from many, even most theist posters that they have not examined their beliefs closely. By contrast, most if not all of the ex-believers here have. I can understand how we sometimes seem closed-minded, but the ex-theists among us have spent a lot of time debating belief vs. atheism just in our own heads.
Hope this explains the situation a bit, and that you'll stick around.
I understand repetition can get dull indeed. I can see where that is coming from, but I have done research on my own, to see where I do believe in what I do. I don’t feel I’m given the chance to show it. That Miracle thread I need to create soon.
The last thing, I agree with. With me, anytime I do find out something, everything changes. Even most of the essentials of the Christian faith I don’t agree with other Christians, so even under Christianity, I’m a huge minority. Perfect example, you know most Christians will speak of a God under what they call a Trinity. 3 Gods in 1. I honestly believe with how anti-Pagan Christianity is, and seeing all the Pagan God sets out there, the Trinity doctrine is a Pagan one, and I don’t believe in a Triune God. So, with that discussion, I’m really in the minority.
The afterlives, I disagree with. Part of my problem up here is, even you guys use the traditional views, even after I repeatedly and still repeatedly say that it is not Biblical and things have been twisted and re-translated to make that Traditional view Biblical.
I don’t like people telling me about Hell. I’d rather have people use the actual terms that was actually in the Scriptures, like Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus.
This will stray the thread, and I’ll create a separate thread on this, but why do I believe in a world flood? What proof do I have?
From the sight, I have a few sources. I have researched into where Nazism/Aryanism get their hatred of other races from, and it actually traces back to the Flood story/stories.
What makes me think the Christian Flood Story is correct, is because this is the only faith that speaks on it, and it is the Nephilim. The Nephilim, breeding with the Earthly woman, was actually the cause of the flood, because is corrupted humanity to the point where Christ could not be born. Since I am putting all my stock on the Nephilim, what proof do I have?
I only have 2 things. #1. If this view is True, the Nephilim’s traits that have entered into our race, are still prevalent. Things like our culture, genetics, intelligence, all play a part with the Nephilim. This is why not every human on the planet is either white/black/whatever. The Nephilim’s traits have created the diversity we see amongst ourselves when concerning things like race.
#2. I have seen photos of actual Nephilim skeletons and bones. I will do everything in my power to find and post some, but they show a person who is about my height, next to a 7 ft. tall human femur bone, and another one where a guy was standing next to a fully excavated fossilized Nephilim, the man looks small, while the fossil was pretty huge to say the least. Also, this fossil was pretty much a human skeletal fossil, except it looks like it’s 20-30 ft. tall.
I was talking to a friend of mine about the flood, and something he showed me about scientific proof was that archeologists have found marine animal fossils on the tops of mountains that are pretty high for where water should be.
Which mountains specifically? I don’t know, I need to research this myself.
For photos, just type in Nephilim and you’ll find some pretty amazing fossils.
Here is one just as an example:http://www.soulwinners.com.au/images/nephilim2.jpg
And for the info, this is NOT the photos I was talking about. There were a couple a poster of another forum that posted the photos, and I am having trouble finding them. It’s one of my greatest problems. I always see something that can be used as proof, but when I go to grab it, the source is gone. But you can not take away from what I saw.
Also, yes I do know that the bone is a replica. I read the statement on the side. Also, for some more recent ones, if we go by the story of David and Goliath, Goliath is a son of a Nephilim, or at least has Nephilim in Him.
And this link should be an interesting one. If it has been debunked, please show the evidence.http://www.earthage.org/EarthOldorYoung/scientific_evidence_for_a_worldwide_flood.htm