Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [#2449]

[Alzael]

The one thing I do wish to really challenge is the final sentence. We see so much compassion in the NT concerning Christ, it isn’t even funny. How is feeding so many multitudes with the fish and loaves of bread not compassion? How is it not compassion that Jesus wept with those who lost their loved ones, only for Jesus to turn around and resurrect the said dead person? How is it not compassionate that Christ claimed that He died for you and I?

This is one of those examples where reading the bible comes in handy. Which I know you say you haven't done and I couldn't blame you for not reading such a terribly written book. Here's the thing though. As I'm sure you're aware there are HUGE differences between what the bible says and what christians actually believe. This is one of those examples. To put it charitably, Jesus is a prick.

He is outwardly racist towards non-Jews.

One of the stories is in Mathew 15:22-26. In this story he encounters a Caanite woman (or Greek depending on your translation) who begs him to heal her daughter. He refuses and sends her away telling her that he is only here to speak to the Jews and compares her to a dog. After she begs and grovels and acknowledges that she's a dog he congratulates her on her faith and heals her daughter.

He tells his followers to only go out and preach the gospel to other Jewish tribes, not to the gentiles in Mathew 10:5-6. Then later declares that any city that has not followed his message, or even heard his message will be destroyed by god. That they will be brought down to hell (Mathew 11:20-24) and their fates will be worse than Sodom and Gamorrah (Mathew 1-:14-15). So, just to be clear, he tells his followers to only preach gods message to the Jews. Then says that anyone who has not heard the message will be killed horribly and tormented forever (and yes, he does mean hell as in torment).

He preaches outright hatred of others and death.

He says that God will kill us body and soul in hell in Mathew 10:28.

When Jesus is criticized by the Pharises for not washing his hands his hands before eating. He turns around and criticizes them for not killing disobedient children as commanded by go (Mathew 15:40-7)

Mathew 10:34-36 has him telling his followers that he will set families against each other and anyone who loves their family more than they love him is only worthy of hell.

Keep in mind, this is all coming mostly just from Mathew. I haven't even begun to mention what the rest of the bible says. I haven't even touched on most of the terrible things he does and says in Mathew. Jesus was simply trying to get the Jews to follow him, so he did a few good tricks to impress them. He is not any kind of a compassionate character.


Edit:Agamemnon makes a good point. DoL and others, I am going to take this post here and make a new thread in general about Jesus' character and compassion.

[sammylama]

. . .

He tells his followers to only go out and preach the gospel to other Jewish tribes, not to the gentiles in Mathew 10:5-6. Then later declares that any city that has not followed his message, or even heard his message will be destroyed by god. That they will be brought down to hell (Mathew 11:20-24) and their fates will be worse than Sodom and Gamorrah (Mathew 1-:14-15). So, just to be clear, he tells his followers to only preach gods message to the Jews. Then says that anyone who has not heard the message will be killed horribly and tormented forever (and yes, he does mean hell as in torment).

Another leak in the dike of freewill...

[Whateverman]

It think we need to break up this discussion some, because it is headed in fifty different directions.

Yup.  I've been following it for several days, but haven't commented much as there's too much to comment on :p

[Alzael]

Another leak in the dike of freewill...

That dike broke long ago. Christians have just been desperately trying to prop it up.

[Death over Life]

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 ESV “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, (19) then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, (20) and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ (21) Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Deuteronomy is your friend and mine... 

Okay, you got me there. I haven’t read Deuteronomy. Just remember, there are reasons why they are called OT and NT. OT was more about the law than anything else. Don’t bother replying here, as I’ll have to research and dig this up.

Really?  So much compassion?  Alright, let me ask you this... Is it compassionate for someone with the power of GOD HIMSELF to create fish and loaves of bread for some people, and not others?  Is it compassionate to resurrect one person and then not resurrect other people's loved ones that die?   Is it compassionate to die for someone, if the only thing that really happens to you is you get to go back to the greatest place in the universe again?   (Imagine if everyone knew they would be going to the greatest place in the universe after they died.  People would be falling over themselves to jump on grenades.  Oh wait! Christians already think they are going to heaven when they die.  What gives?)   Honestly, the only way Jesus's self imposed torture and crucifixion could be considered a sacrifice is if he was burning in hell for all eternity.  Now THAT would be a sacrifice.  Returning to heaven though?  Not so much. 

I’m going to reply to that with this: Why are donations and charities for certain individuals viewed as compassion, but Christ and God doing these things are seen as discrimination? Why is a doctor saving a life considered loving, but Christ resurrecting a dead human seen as selfish? I’m just going to straight up say this: you have a double standard going on here. Because He does something for somebody and not somebody else, He isn’t compassionate? Yet, you yourself will only do something for one and not the other and yet you view what you did as compassionate? Double-standard, straight up.

Now for the last part, I have read somewhere that Jesus did in fact go to Hades. (PS: Why are all of you still talking about something I don’t believe in, “Hell”? I’m really thinking outside of ParkingPlaces, my views are going through one ear and out the other. This makes me think you guys are not really trying to even engage in the conversation, instead sounding like angry teenagers spouting typical anti-Christian garbage)

For Scriptures on that, here it is:

Matthew 12:40 (Codex Sinaiticus Version)
40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

And what makes this “in the heart of the earth” Hades, is that Hades is the grave, which is in the Heart of the Earth. So yes, for the 3 days and 3 nights, Jesus did in fact go to Hades.

Honestly, it's like saying Bill Gates is compassionate for giving a homeless man two dollars for an Egg McMuffin.  While the act itself is nice, it's a bit short of what he could be doing.   And far, FAR short of what anyone would call "the most compassionate man that ever lived".  (not saying you did, but some people do)

I get what you are saying, but a compassionate act is a compassionate act. What I see here, is you are trying to put compassion on a scale, and that is not how it works, at least how I view it. Whether you give someone an Egg McMuffin or giving someone a brand new house, free of debt and everything, they are both compassionate actions. For me to give you let’s say $100 and get mad that I didn’t give you $1,000 instead, you are demonizing a compassion that I personally felt honored by giving you, turning a compassionate act into a selfish act.

The only advice here I can give, don’t put everything on a scale, instead be thankful.

And let's examine it further.  We know what Christians say about the supposed "sacrifice" of Jesus.  But what does it say about a person who willingly accepts the torture and death of another, supposedly completely innocent person, in order to get away with sins?  If someone came up and asked me if they could be tortured and die for the sins that I commit in my lifetime, I would tell them NO.  Nobody deserves punishment for the things I do except me.  I find it disgusting that anyone would accept such a thing.  If I'm going to die and spend eternity in hell for my transgressions, then so be it.  I sure as hell ain't going to let someone else die in my place for the things I do wrong.   

And that is your choice, and you’re right to choose that. I disagree with your’ choice, but I defend your right to choose that.

Sure.  What sort of appeal would a religion have if there were no compassion for other people?  Compassion is prevalent in all pretty much all societies that have ever existed.  Demonstrating that "god" has compassion is simply giving god human characteristics.  It makes god more human, and likeable. 

Actually, Jesus Christ did that Himself.

/sigh.   Nobody hates God.  (well, nobody here anyway.  Not that I know of).  The God you worship simply isn't real.  That's it.  It's not about how we feel.  It's about what we have learned.  "God is fake" is not an emotional statement.  It's an appeal to logic and reason.  It is said with the same passion as "The Easter Bunny is fake". 

And this is going back to the close-minded statement. It is already made up in your mind, and I can’t change that. You saying that to me does nothing, because you are not me, and I am not you. This is my problem with atheism. You guys, claiming that others are close-minded, are being close-minded on any form of a proof or possibility of a God or Gods or Goddess or Goddesses existing. If you Truly weren’t close-minded on this, why aren’t you calling yourself an agnostic?

Since I say this, what makes you think your logic and reason is the correct reason and logic? What kind of logic and reason are you going by? You claim we have a god made up in our heads, but I can simply point the same thing back to you.

Sorry to bubble burst here bud, but most Christians do exactly what you do.  They pick the stuff out of the bible that they want to follow, and they run with it.  You are no different in that respect.  You may think you are, but the only difference is your take on things.  Funny thing is... you ALL think YOUR version is right.  It's so predictable.  Even the way you approach things from this "hey guys, I'm really on your side" aspect.  As if you are looking for our agreement in some things.  Like you are trying to get our approval.  It's nice and all, but really, you are just doing the same thing as everyone else. 

So with your logic here, you are a very faithful Christian.

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. 

And you can deny a pig existing, but the pig still exists.

If God isn't real, then the concept of being saved is all in your mind.  It doesn't exist in reality.  It's good to see you have no problem with self deception.

Apparantly, I’m not the only one who has no problems with self deception.

Anyways, ranting alone doesn’t help anything. Just like prayer alone. You can’t just do such and such and hope for the better. You have to actually get up and DO something about it!

Can I get an AMEN!

[/quote]

AMEN!!! Oh wait…

Funny thing is... you ALL think YOUR version is right.  It's so predictable.  Even the way you approach things from this "hey guys, I'm really on your side" aspect.  As if you are looking for our agreement in some things.  Like you are trying to get our approval.

Apparently, you are agreeing with me cause you want my approval. Never mind.

I am taking a pause at all the replying for the moment. ParkingPlaces wrote something so intriguing and well expressed, I have to reply to this.

DoL

The problem I have, as an atheist (besides not believing it ever happened in the first place) with the Garden of Eden story and free will is that it makes your god sound like a conniving little twerp who plays games with the weak. I'm sorry, but I have to compare my morality with your gods' and I come out on top.

So, I shall politely ask, what kind of examples and details? [...]Please, show me the exact details and the exact stories of what caused you to think this. Yes, I am aware that some of this may have already been posted, but this is to vague for me to engage in properly.

This is a little to to side of the main topic, but you have provided a perfect example of the thought that the average Christian gives to his beliefs.

Parking Places has outlined the logical errors in Genesis and the injustice perpetrated by the alleged creator, yet you simply have never seen these faults; yet you believe! Genesis, literal or metaphorical, is the foundation of the whole religion and you have never examined it critically.

Did you never think to examine what it is you have spent most of your life saying?

Umm, no He didn’t. He just said, your God sounds like a twerp. I ask, show me some examples, because that is a blank statement that has no worth or merit on it’s own standing.

I could say: atheists are stupid. It has no worth or merits on it’s own. It’s a blank statement. How this makes Christians look bad, is astounding.

I mean, you guys got on to Hguols for not providing evidence from being challenged, but now I challenge you guys to do the same thing, and you guys are doing exactly what you scowled Hguols for doing.

Double-standard hypocrisy.

And I love how you guys constantly put everybody in 1 basket. I may have grown up Christian, but this stuff with me is only a couple years old at most. I am actually really new to the Christian faith. Thank you for the pre-conceived judgementalism.

Edit:Agamemnon makes a good point. DoL and others, I am going to take this post here and make a new thread in general about Jesus' character and compassion.

That he does. I will comply and reply properly in the other thread. I just wish this website I use for Bible Scriptures wasn’t having technical difficulties. Oh yeah, I apologize for not replying to some of the people I wanted to reply to like Wright for example. It seems I have created so many topics in such a few amount of posts that I am creating that Harry Potter book series, except with religious discussions instead.

[rev45]

And this is going back to the close-minded statement. It is already made up in your mind, and I can’t change that. You saying that to me does nothing, because you are not me, and I am not you. This is my problem with atheism. You guys, claiming that others are close-minded, are being close-minded on any form of a proof or possibility of a God or Gods or Goddess or Goddesses existing. If you Truly weren’t close-minded on this, why aren’t you calling yourself an agnostic?

I can't speak for Jeff or others on this board but I'm not close-minded to any proof or possibility of there being a god existing.  The problem is that I've yet to have anyone convince me of the god they worship or claim exists.  I'm an atheist because I've rejected every claim so far from theists that their god exists and that's all atheism is.  A rejection of the claims that a god or gods exists.  If I could be shown that a god exists, my position would change and I could no longer consider myself an atheist.  I'm not close-minded, I'm just not convinced.

[Death over Life]

And this is going back to the close-minded statement. It is already made up in your mind, and I can’t change that. You saying that to me does nothing, because you are not me, and I am not you. This is my problem with atheism. You guys, claiming that others are close-minded, are being close-minded on any form of a proof or possibility of a God or Gods or Goddess or Goddesses existing. If you Truly weren’t close-minded on this, why aren’t you calling yourself an agnostic?

I can't speak for Jeff or others on this board but I'm not close-minded to any proof or possibility of there being a god existing.  The problem is that I've yet to have anyone convince me of the god they worship or claim exists.  I'm an atheist because I've rejected every claim so far from theists that their god exists and that's all atheism is.  A rejection of the claims that a god or gods exists.  If I could be shown that a god exists, my position would change and I could no longer consider myself an atheist.  I'm not close-minded, I'm just not convinced.

I haven't really been able to talk to you or see your views, so that close-minded statement was not towards you.

In all honesty, scrolling through the forums, with all the atheist vs. christian debates, most of them are acting very childish and immature. It is personally starting to piss me off, but I'm still here because some people for sure like, Wright, and ParkingPlaces, and I'm currently giving Alzael a chance, I feel I can actually discuss with them and we can leave behind silly statements and crude remarks that Jeff and Graybeard have made.

I may not have enough to change your views, nor is it my intention, I just want to discuss differing views and learn from the other's perspectives, but from the posts I've seen, some from mine but also from others, the discussions are mainly slander and judging with close-minded bigotry. It really makes me think of what I 1st saw with the videos: 10 important questions that a Christian should answer and that pray to a milk jug video. It's all a joke to point and laugh at Christians while not being civil enough to give a proper argument, and then turn around and claim Christians are ignorant and can't have a civil and engaging discussion. It really makes it hard for me to take this place seriously.

[Alzael]

You saying that to me does nothing, because you are not me, and I am not you. This is my problem with atheism. You guys, claiming that others are close-minded, are being close-minded on any form of a proof or possibility of a God or Gods or Goddess or Goddesses existing. If you Truly weren’t close-minded on this, why aren’t you calling yourself an agnostic?

This comes up a LOT, in discussions with christians who really don't understand what certain words mean so I'll field this one. A lot of people misunderstand the meaning of agnostic. They think that it's an uncertain halfway point between belief and non-belief. It isn't however.

Most atheists are agnostic. Agnostic means "without knowledge" this is different from a belief. A gnostic is one who claims certain knowledge about his belief. Whereas agnostic is one who does not claim certain knowledge about his belief. It is not, strictly speaking, a belief in and of itself. Instead it refers to how you view your belief.

Take yourself for example. You believe in the existence of a personal god. This makes you a theist. However you do not (as near as I can see) claim to have certain knowledge of the existence of your god. This makes you an "agnostic" theist.

If you came on here and told us all that there was no doubt in your mind that god existed, that would make you a "gnostic" theist. This would be because you were claiming absolute certainty of your beliefs.

By that same token, if you ask atheists most of them will respond that they do not believe in god, but do not claim to know for certain whether he exists. Hence "agnostic" atheists. You will hear very few atheists make the claim that there is certainly no god. That would be illogical since you can't (with a few exceptions) prove a negative.

However, lacking any valid evidence for the existence of a god. The only logical option becomes non-belief. This is the point that is really trying to be made. Theists have been attempting to prove their gods for thousands of years and cannot do it. It is not about close-mindedness, it is about caring about what the truth is and what it isn't.

I'm currently giving Alzael a chance

How very condescending of you.

[Gnu Ordure]

DoL:

I feel I can actually discuss with them and we can leave behind silly statements and crude remarks that Jeff and Graybeard have made.

What an amazing statement. Please provide examples of Jeff and Graybeard being silly or crude.

If you can't, consider apologizing for this blanket dismissal of their thoughtful posts.

[ParkingPlaces]

DoL

The problem I have, as an atheist (besides not believing it ever happened in the first place) with the Garden of Eden story and free will is that it makes your god sound like a conniving little twerp who plays games with the weak. I'm sorry, but I have to compare my morality with your gods' and I come out on top.

So, I shall politely ask, what kind of examples and details? Don’t forget, I can Truly relate to your’ claims. I myself apostatized and converted to Satanism for a bit, but I came back to Christianity in the end. I know what you are saying because I at one point wanted to KILL God and commit the ultimate Deicide. I can relate, but I view things differently, although much of what I learned from the Satanism, still resides in me. Please, show me the exact details and the exact stories of what caused you to think this. Yes, I am aware that some of this may have already been posted, but this is to vague for me to engage in properly.

DoL

First of all, please understand that my atheism has nothing to do with ill feeling toward any god. Yours or others. As an atheist who is about a convinced as humanly possible that there has never been any sort of deity, feelings about this god of yours have not been nor will they ever be an issue.  I have never felt one iota of anger towards any god. I do at times get miffed with people who speak hateful things in the name of their personal god. So people can piss me off. But only because they actually exist.

I hope it is obvious that the same goes for satan. He doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned. I have no reason to form any opinion, let alone a negative one, towards something else nonexistent.

I said in the above quote that your god sounds "like a conniving little twerp who plays games with the weak." You've asked for details. Graybeard responded to you a bit earlier on this. I believe I can summarize his post with this question: "Have you ever read any of this stuff?"

Graybeard was asking if you had ever critically read the bible passages in question. Many obviously have not. Apparently a whole bunch of people can read the first words of Genesis, which says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" and simply say "Wow, that's incredible!"

However, others such as myself do things like ask questions. Like how well does that passage match with what science knows about the formation of the universe and our solar system and our planet. I hate to break it to you, but doesn't. In any way, shape or form. Sadly, I am a bit off topic here, but I felt I should mention that not one verse in the creation story makes a bit of sense when you compare it to what we know about the universe and our planet through science.

But back to the twerp thing. Christians say that their perfect god decided to create the heavens and earth and at some point he chose to create Adam. I won't delve into how imperfect this human creation was. Having had my tonsils out when I was two and a hernia operation 25 years later, I can personally attest to a few of the flaws. Again, I digress. Anyway, said perfect god creates Adam out of dirt, and then is puzzled that Adam is lonely. That right there should have given the sky-guy a clue that he didn't know everything. He hadn't thought about Adam getting depressed about having to do all the work. The dude needed company, so god made a "helpmate".

But before Eve showed up, god had that famous little talk about the tree. That one over there in the middle of the garden. Don't eat of it. Don't touch it. Or you're dead.

Now remember that this was a perfect world. Hence nothing had died. Yet god was assuming that Adam had a good solid understanding about the concept of death. Then not long after that (it was a Thursday I think) the Eve thing came up, and your god should have at that point realized that his expectations of dirt boy were a little high. And I would think that, since he is omnimax or whatever that he would have given this some thought and realized that neither Adam or Eve were like, you know, really well educated folk with an ability to reason. These were newborn babes whose every ability to think, relate, compare and contrast, feel, reason, interpret and understand was completely in the hands of your god. They had no other sources, and they had no way to decide if even  they them selves were competent. Let alone that perfectly natural voice in the sky.

I won't go into Adam and Eve's genetic predispositions. No need to muck this up even more.

Anyway, here we have two people, only one of which has been given instructions, who, for reasons not well documented, decide to pick the apple or orange or cherry or whatever, and they get some shit for it. Because they had stepped over the line. (That was the first metaphor ever generated, though nobody ever brings that up.) Anyway, they were supposed to die but your perfect god either forgot or he didn't know what death was either. So he tossed them out of the garden.

So here we have two innocent people, literally babe's in the woods, who have just pulled the biggest boner ever, and they'd never even seen the memo. The senior of the two had gotten the word verbally. God hadn't reminded them after the chick showed up. Nor had he gone to the trouble of explaining anything about why he had placed an arbitrary and hazardous thing right in the middle of paradise. And so he proved Murphy's law 5,500 years before anyone named Murphy was ever born. (Even I have to admit that is impressive).

And here's the worst part. He planned the whole thing. He had to have. He knows everything. He can see into the future. Because he created that too. He knew they would screw it up. Just like how a few thousand years later Jesus had to die on the cross or the whole thing was a bust, A&E had to piss off the landlord and loose their place. 

You and I and every other person on the planet is now born a sinner because two newbies living in paradise couldn't foresee the negative consequences of their actions. Because it was important they not see them. Because it had to happen. And now we all enjoy the status of being a poor wretch because we are the lowest of the low, the dirtiest, slimiest lowlifes ever to inhabit the universe, etc.

And He loves you! ₁

Can you not see that an ancient cultural group in search of a creation story might come up with this little gem to satisfy the masses who were curious about where they came from. And that the story could serve to establish their legitimacy as a tribe and also perhaps help the leaders control them a little bit too? And can you not understand that both people in power and people in fear might choose to accept the story because not believing it would get you stoned to death?

And can you see how, over time, that people not willing to question the story for whatever reason would still exist and proclaim it true?

Keep in mind that concurrent creations stories existed all over the world. Very different creation stories, but creation stories nonetheless. And keep in mind that it is inevitable that some creation stories would be more successful than other creation stories because one group or another would be better at caving in the skulls of their enemy, and I guess christians were quite adept at that. Because here we are.

I have no expectation that the ancients would cobble together a creation story that would include Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning, E=mc². I don't expect the bible to have as it's second chapter the Book of Physics. I would be astonished if any mention was made of orbital mechanics or photosynthesis. I would never expect stories from that far in our past to reflect any modern understanding of reality.

And the bible doesn't.

Think about it.

I'm going to stop here. It's late. I'm tired. And I may have just disenfranchised myself from the entire membership of this site by saying so little using so many words. It's not my fault. I listened to Rush Limbaugh today, and caught whatever he has. But few will understand. If desired, I will add responses to more of your post tomorrow.

1: Obviously full credit for this line in this context goes to George Carlin.

[wright]

Death over Life,

I understand that it takes awhile to catch up with everyone you want to engage with. Especially in a situation like this, where you are trying to keep up with several of us. If you're feeling rushed or overwhelmed, just say so (as in fact you've done).

IIRC, Postal Girl said that we much prefer quality replies over quantity. Most of us understand it takes awhile to compose a response that is personally satisfying and will (hopefully) move the discussion / debate forward. Particularly as you seem to prefer posts that are substantial 

Having said that... both you and Hguols clearly find the atmosphere of this forum at times unwelcoming as well as overwhelming. I think this is a combination of three factors: first, the discussion style here is admittedly aggressive compared to many other forums (though certainly not the most aggressive that I know of); many of the regulars have heard a lot of apologetics from believers and have little or no patience when they hear it yet again.

Second and obviously, this is a predominately atheist community. From what I've seen, many theist posters have not had much (if any) experience in discussions where they are in the minority. This is not meant as a slight, just a personal observation.

Lastly, I also get the impression from many, even most theist posters that they have not examined their beliefs closely. By contrast, most if not all of the ex-believers here have. I can understand how we sometimes seem closed-minded, but the ex-theists among us have spent a lot of time debating belief vs. atheism just in our own heads.

Hope this explains the situation a bit, and that you'll stick around.

[Alzael]

What an amazing statement. Please provide examples of Jeff and Graybeard being silly or crude.

If you can't, consider apologizing for this blanket dismissal of their thoughtful posts.

I second that. I'd like to see this as well.

I just want to discuss differing views and learn from the other's perspectives, but from the posts I've seen, some from mine but also from others, the discussions are mainly slander and judging with close-minded bigotry

And this as well. That's a very strong statement to make. You're making quite a few assumptions there. Please show this "close-minded bigotry" that you're talking about.

(Fixed quote attribution - PG)

[Death over Life]

You saying that to me does nothing, because you are not me, and I am not you. This is my problem with atheism. You guys, claiming that others are close-minded, are being close-minded on any form of a proof or possibility of a God or Gods or Goddess or Goddesses existing. If you Truly weren’t close-minded on this, why aren’t you calling yourself an agnostic?

This comes up a LOT, in discussions with christians who really don't understand what certain words mean so I'll field this one. A lot of people misunderstand the meaning of agnostic. They think that it's an uncertain halfway point between belief and non-belief. It isn't however.

Most atheists are agnostic. Agnostic means "without knowledge" this is different from a belief. A gnostic is one who claims certain knowledge about his belief. Whereas agnostic is one who does not claim certain knowledge about his belief. It is not, strictly speaking, a belief in and of itself. Instead it refers to how you view your belief.

Take yourself for example. You believe in the existence of a personal god. This makes you a theist. However you do not (as near as I can see) claim to have certain knowledge of the existence of your god. This makes you an "agnostic" theist.

If you came on here and told us all that there was no doubt in your mind that god existed, that would make you a "gnostic" theist. This would be because you were claiming absolute certainty of your beliefs.

By that same token, if you ask atheists most of them will respond that they do not believe in god, but do not claim to know for certain whether he exists. Hence "agnostic" atheists. You will hear very few atheists make the claim that there is certainly no god. That would be illogical since you can't (with a few exceptions) prove a negative.

However, lacking any valid evidence for the existence of a god. The only logical option becomes non-belief. This is the point that is really trying to be made. Theists have been attempting to prove their gods for thousands of years and cannot do it. It is not about close-mindedness, it is about caring about what the truth is and what it isn't.

I really do appreciate the view btw. I do get what you are saying. For me, atheism = There is no God, and agnostic means there could be a God. That being what I saw is how I defined it.

For a while, I have called myself an agnostic theist, because I do believe in a god or gods, just from my research, life and existence have shown me the Christian God is the True One, but I have no problems discovering if it is indeed a lie or not. I just want the Ultimate Truth, not a tradition.

I'm currently giving Alzael a chance

How very condescending of you.

I heavily apologize for the statement. I was a bit pissy when writing that. You’ve been one of the much better individuals here.

DoL:

I feel I can actually discuss with them and we can leave behind silly statements and crude remarks that Jeff and Graybeard have made.

What an amazing statement. Please provide examples of Jeff and Graybeard being silly or crude.

If you can't, consider apologizing for this blanket dismissal of their thoughtful posts.

From JeffPT:

Funny thing is... you ALL think YOUR version is right. It's so predictable. Even the way you approach things from this "hey guys, I'm really on your side" aspect. As if you are looking for our agreement in some things. Like you are trying to get our approval.

It's good to see you have no problem with self deception.

From Graybeard:

This is a little to to side of the main topic, but you have provided a perfect example of the thought that the average Christian gives to his beliefs.

Parking Places has outlined the logical errors in Genesis and the injustice perpetrated by the alleged creator, yet you simply have never seen these faults; yet you believe! Genesis, literal or metaphorical, is the foundation of the whole religion and you have never examined it critically.

Did you never think to examine what it is you have spent most of your life saying?

If none of this say anything, then I will honestly sense religious discrimination here.

Why couldn’t He have said it just the way ParkingPlaces said it? This post felt like a mockery of my views. Could my perception indeed be wrong? Yes, but the styles of postings, since we can’t meet in real life, are the only way I can perceive if one is willing, or if one is more into shoving their views down the other’s throat. I am neither individual, and I don’t pick apart verse by verse, because doing that, you can get any kind of message you want. I personally go chapter by chapter. I have examined it, and I can’t claim to have all the answers, nobody can.

By the end of the night, there is no Truth, only perceptions and interpretations. The Ultimate Truth of it all lies in Death, hence my username.

Death over Life,

I understand that it takes awhile to catch up with everyone you want to engage with. Especially in a situation like this, where you are trying to keep up with several of us. If you're feeling rushed or overwhelmed, just say so (as in fact you've done).

IIRC, Postal Girl said that we much prefer quality replies over quantity. Most of us understand it takes awhile to compose a response that is personally satisfying and will (hopefully) move the discussion / debate forward. Particularly as you seem to prefer posts that are substantial 

Having said that... both you and Hguols clearly find the atmosphere of this forum at times unwelcoming as well as overwhelming. I think this is a combination of three factors: first, the discussion style here is admittedly aggressive compared to many other forums (though certainly not the most aggressive that I know of); many of the regulars have heard a lot of apologetics from believers and have little or no patience when they hear it yet again.

Second and obviously, this is a predominately atheist community. From what I've seen, many theist posters have not had much (if any) experience in discussions where they are in the minority. This is not meant as a slight, just a personal observation.

Lastly, I also get the impression from many, even most theist posters that they have not examined their beliefs closely. By contrast, most if not all of the ex-believers here have. I can understand how we sometimes seem closed-minded, but the ex-theists among us have spent a lot of time debating belief vs. atheism just in our own heads.

Hope this explains the situation a bit, and that you'll stick around.

I understand repetition can get dull indeed. I can see where that is coming from, but I have done research on my own, to see where I do believe in what I do. I don’t feel I’m given the chance to show it. That Miracle thread I need to create soon.

The last thing, I agree with. With me, anytime I do find out something, everything changes. Even most of the essentials of the Christian faith I don’t agree with other Christians, so even under Christianity, I’m a huge minority. Perfect example, you know most Christians will speak of a God under what they call a Trinity. 3 Gods in 1. I honestly believe with how anti-Pagan Christianity is, and seeing all the Pagan God sets out there, the Trinity doctrine is a Pagan one, and I don’t believe in a Triune God. So, with that discussion, I’m really in the minority.

The afterlives, I disagree with. Part of my problem up here is, even you guys use the traditional views, even after I repeatedly and still repeatedly say that it is not Biblical and things have been twisted and re-translated to make that Traditional view Biblical.

I don’t like people telling me about Hell. I’d rather have people use the actual terms that was actually in the Scriptures, like Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus.

This will stray the thread, and I’ll create a separate thread on this, but why do I believe in a world flood? What proof do I have?

From the sight, I have a few sources. I have researched into where Nazism/Aryanism get their hatred of other races from, and it actually traces back to the Flood story/stories.

What makes me think the Christian Flood Story is correct, is because this is the only faith that speaks on it, and it is the Nephilim. The Nephilim, breeding with the Earthly woman, was actually the cause of the flood, because is corrupted humanity to the point where Christ could not be born. Since I am putting all my stock on the Nephilim, what proof do I have?

I only have 2 things. #1. If this view is True, the Nephilim’s traits that have entered into our race, are still prevalent. Things like our culture, genetics, intelligence, all play a part with the Nephilim. This is why not every human on the planet is either white/black/whatever. The Nephilim’s traits have created the diversity we see amongst ourselves when concerning things like race.

#2. I have seen photos of actual Nephilim skeletons and bones. I will do everything in my power to find and post some, but they show a person who is about my height, next to a 7 ft. tall human femur bone, and another one where a guy was standing next to a fully excavated fossilized Nephilim, the man looks small, while the fossil was pretty huge to say the least. Also, this fossil was pretty much a human skeletal fossil, except it looks like it’s 20-30 ft. tall.

I was talking to a friend of mine about the flood, and something he showed me about scientific proof was that archeologists have found marine animal fossils on the tops of mountains that are pretty high for where water should be.

Which mountains specifically? I don’t know, I need to research this myself.

For photos, just type in Nephilim and you’ll find some pretty amazing fossils.

Here is one just as an example:

http://www.soulwinners.com.au/images/nephilim2.jpg

And for the info, this is NOT the photos I was talking about. There were a couple a poster of another forum that posted the photos, and I am having trouble finding them. It’s one of my greatest problems. I always see something that can be used as proof, but when I go to grab it, the source is gone. But you can not take away from what I saw.

Also, yes I do know that the bone is a replica. I read the statement on the side. Also, for some more recent ones, if we go by the story of David and Goliath, Goliath is a son of a Nephilim, or at least has Nephilim in Him.

And this link should be an interesting one. If it has been debunked, please show the evidence.

http://www.earthage.org/EarthOldorYoung/scientific_evidence_for_a_worldwide_flood.htm

[rev45]

In all honesty, scrolling through the forums, with all the atheist vs. christian debates, most of them are acting very childish and immature. It is personally starting to piss me off, but I'm still here because some people for sure like, Wright, and ParkingPlaces, and I'm currently giving Alzael a chance, I feel I can actually discuss with them and we can leave behind silly statements and crude remarks that Jeff and Graybeard have made.

I've not been here a year and what I see in a lot of the discussions is when a theist joins the forum they are not prepared for the questions that are asked to them.  It then becomes increasingly frustrating when they begin to stonewall and dodge questions.  And when they display their lack of knowledge of their own religion, holy books, science, history, or current events, I see a lot of members start in with the jabs and insults.  I don't know if this conversation you're having with others is going that direction as I haven't read all of the exchanges.  I hope it doesn't and if you believe the discussion is heading in a childish direction, pm a mod and let them know.

I may not have enough to change your views, nor is it my intention, I just want to discuss differing views and learn from the other's perspectives,

This is exactly why I'm here also. 

It really makes me think of what I 1st saw with the videos: 10 important questions that a Christian should answer and that pray to a milk jug video. It's all a joke to point and laugh at Christians while not being civil enough to give a proper argument, and then turn around and claim Christians are ignorant and can't have a civil and engaging discussion. It really makes it hard for me to take this place seriously.

I can't speak for him but I don't believe the author of the videos intended for his points to be jokes.  I would think that he would want people to discuss the ideas that he puts forth.  My take on the milk jug video is that he wants us to discuss why we would see the same amount of prays answered if we pray to a milk jug compared to that of the Christian god.  At least that is my perspective.  I don't see it as an immature jab but rather just what he chose to try and get his point across.

[Death over Life]

What an amazing statement. Please provide examples of Jeff and Graybeard being silly or crude.

If you can't, consider apologizing for this blanket dismissal of their thoughtful posts.

I second that. I'd like to see this as well.

I just want to discuss differing views and learn from the other's perspectives, but from the posts I've seen, some from mine but also from others, the discussions are mainly slander and judging with close-minded bigotry

And this as well. That's a very strong statement to make. You're making quite a few assumptions there. Please show this "close-minded bigotry" that you're talking about.

Already posted the ones that set me off.

Here are some just from mine alone:

The very 1st reply to me ever here:

Wow Dude, you and H deserve each other!

Then as of all curiosity, can you explain the supernatural, the occult, and things like voodoo to me? Can you explain how Ouija Boards work then if there are no Spirits?

Really?

More crap from Jeff:

You just think you understand the question, when in fact it has a deeper implication that is going right over your head.  (And the fact that you can't see it... THAT'S amusing!) 

Don’t get me wrong, I heavily encourage free thinking and questioning.

Good for you.  Now use it. 

As if I’m not using it.

Then as of all curiosity, can you explain the supernatural, the occult, and things like voodoo to me? Can you explain how Ouija Boards work then if there are no Spirits?

Seriously?  lol. 

Go pick up a book please sometime.  Something non-religious. 

Shit-headed statement no matter how badly anybody would like to twist it. Never mind the fact that I am  into the Warhammer 40,000 books for just 1 (or many) examples.

Sneaky.  Why don't you just say "I don't want to be pinned down by anything I say, because I am probably way outgunned here, so I am not going to claim any particular god exists, just that I think one is out there." It's a great way to squirm out of things. 

But really, it's not atheism vs theism.  It's "whatever religion you think is real" vs. "nah".  Most of us really have no problem with the idea that god exists (although you will find some people who say without a concrete definition of what a god is, we can't even postulate that one exists).  We just want proof of it.  Honestly, I personally don't give a crap if you believe in a non-specific god.  Go ahead; knock yourself out.  Your belief probably won't impact me at all.  You won't try to push it on my kids.  You won't try to pass laws that you think your god wants to have passed.  But the Christain God is no such thing.  I do give a crap about that one because people who believe it often try very hard to have things done the way they think God wants things done.

Alright, those that have nothing to do with me:

I didn't find a specific thread on this. Back when I was digging out the tentacles of Christianity from my completely converted mind I spent some time considering why people fall for it. I have to say I am ashamed of myself that it took till my mid thirties to completely come to my senses so it was important for me to understand everything.

I had what I thought was a complete list of reasons for being Christian back then, this is just what I can think of off the top of my head now. It would be cool to have a thought out definitive list so anyone want to jump in on this go for it. Unless its already been done here, in that case might I have the link.

1.   Fear, better safe then sorry
2.   Low mental function
3.   Greed, desire for the unearned
4.   Sincere desire to be good
5.   Joiners, sheeple syndrome
6.   Emotional deficiencies
7.   Brainwashing

Grief.

Peer pressure.

Inability to rationalise there being no god.

Wanting to get close to kids. 

Wanting to be a part of a group that'll accept them.

Stupidity.

Because they feel something that cannot be explained in words but that makes perfect sense if attributed to a creator of some kind.

REALLY??? Most of them are valid, but REALLY??? How am I supposed to take that seriously?

So, because I’m claiming to be a Christian, I have a low mental function? Stupidity???

Hi Larissa,

Thanks for your story, I can really relate to your story.  Im still a believer and christian, but it has been tough, really tough.  I also wish God would reveal Himself so plainly and so completely that there would be no doubt in anyones mind.  I also wish for God to answer all my prayers and give me my way and be the God I want Him to be.

and you believe why? 

I have struggled at churches all my life, the politics, the unanswered prayers, the dissappointments, the depression, Im 40 and have had major depression since 13 and I keep asking God to heal me and he doesnt.  You name it Ive been there and seen all there is to see in the church.  I go to a methodist church now and what works for me is not getting so involved, I dont get involved in  the politics or the negetive things and I dont make close friends, survival mode I suppose.

usual OneTrueChristaintm nonsense.

But one question keeps me going back to God no matter what goes on - What is the purpose of life if we were just a bunch of chemical reactions created from a few chemical reactions, then we are born and struggle and struggle and struggle through life as we  all know, noyones life is easy,  then just die and cease to exist.  What is the point of that? why didnt we just stay as we were before we were born and not have to struggle through this life, why die and cease to exist whats the point of that?  If this is all there is this life, here and now, whats the point? do we have to make the most of the here and now? drink as much as we can? party, go on hoiliday make as much money as we can, get as many friends as we can, just do as much and as fast as we can cause when this is all over,well this is all there is so make sure you live it up as much as possible now cause this is all there is? my question keeps me searching and not just settling for a quick answer that this is all there is.

and the usual reason Christians keep believing. They want to be special snowflakes.

Want me to keep going? Really, with some of the replies, rather than just being honest, you guys really look like you were mad that because the Christian God didn’t give you something, you just decided to stop believing, and now bash the Deity to death. Most did admit they used to be Christians, so there is something going on within Christianity. Do we have any atheists that used to be Pagan or Islam here with no traces of Christianity just out of curiosity?

I think if you guys could respond in a not-so-harsh and somewhat hateful way, you could make a huge world of difference, instead of initially coming off as a bully. In my opinion, if you wish to be like that, at least be like it towards the extreme versions of Islam, where they will actually kill you if you don’t believe in what they do.

Even the extreme Christians, damning you for all eternity, at least they will not lay a hand on you, and please don’t get the pedophilia priests involved with that statement. I’m not talking about sexual abuse here.

I've not been here a year and what I see in a lot of the discussions is when a theist joins the forum they are not prepared for the questions that are asked to them.  It then becomes increasingly frustrating when they begin to stonewall and dodge questions.  And when they display their lack of knowledge of their own religion, holy books, science, history, or current events, I see a lot of members start in with the jabs and insults.  I don't know if this conversation you're having with others is going that direction as I haven't read all of the exchanges.  I hope it doesn't and if you believe the discussion is heading in a childish direction, pm a mod and let them know.

Pretty much, you see exactly as I see. If I don’t know how to answer a question, I admit, I should start saying I honestly don’t know. It is frustrating to demand answers and people just duck and dodge, but I think at least me attempting to properly answer the question shouldn’t render jabs and insults.

I don’t know why, but jabs and insults just sets me off. It’s one thing to dislike Christianity, because it has done horrid things in the name of God. I’m bombarded by the Crusades almost every time Christianity is brought up. It’s another that new people come in here, and they are being welcomed with jabs and insults for being Christian. As I’ve learned with any faith, doing that doesn’t make one disbelieve, it makes one cling even more to their faith.

I may not have enough to change your views, nor is it my intention, I just want to discuss differing views and learn from the other's perspectives,

This is exactly why I'm here also. 

Then you and I should get along great. I hope something of my past 5 or 6 posts will start something enticing between us and many others.

I can't speak for him but I don't believe the author of the videos intended for his points to be jokes.  I would think that he would want people to discuss the ideas that he puts forth.  My take on the milk jug video is that he wants us to discuss why we would see the same amount of prays answered if we pray to a milk jug compared to that of the Christian god.  At least that is my perspective.  I don't see it as an immature jab but rather just what he chose to try and get his point across.

The videos I didn’t see as an insult or jab. The videos, I wasn’t sure if it was serious or not, because it just lays down things with no evaluation nor evidence. It’s all just blanket statements, and questions that are really easy to answer.

I think part of why I do get trouble answering is because the way many portrays Christianity, tends to delve from or into Calvinism and I am not anywhere near familiar with that branch of Christianity outside of “God has already pre-destined the saved and damned the lost. Every action we do (good or evil) is because God ordained it.”

That’s all I’m familiar with, but outside of that, from some of the Calvinists I’ve talked to, it’s typical Protestantism.

[rev45]

I don’t know why, but jabs and insults just sets me off.

I understand completely.  I find that insults do little to advance a conversation.  When I'm insulted, I feel as if the person is working harder on coming up with a clever insult rather than helping me understand their point of view.  There have been times when I feel as if I've been insulted when it wasn't the intention.  In those cases I have to keep a cool head and ask them to explain their idea in a different way.

As I’ve learned with any faith, doing that doesn’t make one disbelieve, it makes one cling even more to their faith.

I see this with any topic.  To question the intelligence of someone instead of questioning their argument will have that person put up their defenses.  And good luck trying to get that person to listen to you after that.

The videos I didn’t see as an insult or jab. The videos, I wasn’t sure if it was serious or not, because it just lays down things with no evaluation nor evidence. It’s all just blanket statements, and questions that are really easy to answer.

If I may suggest, I would be interested if you would start a thread in the "Why Won't God Heal Amputees" area of the forum.  I think that a lot of us here would be interested in your responses to the questions.  Let me also suggest that if you haven't read through many of the previous posts there, I think it would be a good idea to do so.  Many others have posted their responses and it would be wise to see why people on this board have yet to be convinced of their point of view.  It would give you a heads up to the kinds of arguments you would probably run into.

I think part of why I do get trouble answering is because the way many portrays Christianity, tends to delve from or into Calvinism and I am not anywhere near familiar with that branch of Christianity outside of “God has already pre-destined the saved and damned the lost. Every action we do (good or evil) is because God ordained it.”

That’s all I’m familiar with, but outside of that, from some of the Calvinists I’ve talked to, it’s typical Protestantism.

Last time I looked into it, Christianity has over 30,000 denominations.  I would find it impossible for anyone to be familiar with all of them.  The way I see it, it's a large hurdle to overcome.  I think that Christians need to come a consensus on their religion.  30,000 different views on a certain god and all professing to be correct.  They can't all be right but they can all be wrong.

[ParkingPlaces]

DoL

I'll have other things to say when I have time later, but in one of your posts above you asked the following question:

I was talking to a friend of mine about the flood, and something he showed me about scientific proof was that archeologists have found marine animal fossils on the tops of mountains that are pretty high for where water should be.

Which mountains specifically? I don’t know, I need to research this myself.

I used to live at the base of this 9,500 foot mountain in Oregon (Mt. Chief Joseph, Wallowa Country, Oregon)



I could walk out the door of my little cabin and hike to the top. And I could find marine fossils with no problem. I only found shells, not any fish skeletons or anything. I don't know if other types are up there.

Marine fossils located high up on mountain sides at even at the crest are common in the region, as I understand it.

However, this is explained by geology. A huge portion of the inland United States in the region that is now the Rocky Mountains (the above mountain is in a far western arm of that mountain range) was under a vast inland sea. This was many, many millions of years ago. The collision of moving tectonic plates caused mountain ranges to rise up out of the water. Fossilized stuff from under the water went from being below sea level to rising to nearly 10,000 feet, in the case of Mt. Joseph. Note that there are also remnants of old rivers up there, huge conglomerations of rounded river rock encased in the mountain side. Not old river beds up above today's rivers that might have drained the flood, , but river beds that have been swallowed by the landscape over time, covered by landslides as the mountains pushed up (again, in a timeframe measured by the millions of years) and then when the new mountains began eroding the old river beds were exposed in eroding cliffs. These river beds are not nice and neat river beds, they are distorted and bent and broken, as one would expect of something buried under billions of tons of moving rock to me.

Moving over very slow periods. For spans of time never hinted at in the bible. Pushed around by geologic forces never dreamt of in the bible. And with results inconsistent with the bible.

The fossil beds I am referring to at the top of the mountain are incased in literally thousands of thin layers of sandstone that was compressed into shale. Compressed by huge pressures and high temperatures inside the mountain before eventually being exposed by erosion. I should mention that these fossil beds high on Mt. Chief Joseph are angled at about 30 degrees. They are not just on a flat area atop the mountain where a bunch of seashells might have been trapped when waters receded.

Christians are drawing conclusions from feeble evidence that their bible is true. Geologists and paleontologists and other scientists do things different. They find stuff and try to figure out why what they found is what it is and where it was. They don't have a story to match their findings with, so they are not limited to only what they hope is true.

And FYI, if your friend used the term "archaeologists" for the people who found the fossils, keep in mind that it would be paleontologists and geologists who would look for fossils. Archaeologists look for evidence of people in old cultures. Old villages and such. Not old animals.

Of possible interest to you. If all the fossilized critters paleontologists have found were alive when the flood occurred, and fossilized in the aftermath, there is no way to explain why so many animals were alive at the same time. There is a huge area of fossils in Africa called the Karoo Formation. To say it is rich in fossils is an understatement. Researcher's estimate that there are at least 800 billion fossilized animals there. I'm not talking little seashells. I'm talking animals. From shrews to dinosaurs. Eight hundred billion. And that is in one formation. Where there are layers and layers of dead animals in the rock. And the oldest animals, as described by evolution, are at the bottom of the pile. And the newer species are on the top. Just as science would predict. Nor are there any human remains mixed in with that or any other formation that contains dinosaurs. There are no humans mixed with dinosaur bones. Anywhere.  And yet creationists says that they coexisted and died at the same time. Hmmmmm.

Easy to account for when there are millions of years of geology and life available to create the conditions and the life necessary for such a menagerie. Rather difficult when one has only a couple of thousand years between biblical creation and the alleged flood event.

Hope this helps.

[jetson]

DoL,

"Don't let the bastards get you down" - Bono.

When I first arrived here I was happy to call myself atheist, something I had never really done before, even though I was never a believer.  This particular forum was intimidating to me.  The arguments were heated, and the "insults" were flying fast and furious.  But mixed in were some amazing replies and discussions that really helped me feel like I wasn't alone in my atheism.  There were people saying things that I only wished I had thought of.

This site is definitely not a good place for the thin skinned, and it has been argued to death over time about agressive and insulting replies and remarks by both sides.  I debate theist friends in person, and I shudder at the thought of sending them here because I know exactly how they will respond.  They will consider atheists a bunch of insulting punks who hate God and can't believe how stupid the believers are. 

But I truly believe that this is the absolute best forum to learn about atheism, and hone your skills and knowledge of The Bible, and many other topics.  Even though we don't agree, you would be amazed at the level of detail some of these posters have on scripture. 

Look, I have said some mean things on occasion, and I have been "moderated", and called a troll!  And I thought we were a family!  But in the end, I dusted off my ego, and came back to start engaging again, and I am enjoying it once again.

Bottom line, there is simply no other way to say "you are deluded", than using the actual phrase.  And if my calling you deluded about your God belief is offensive, then you will indeed not enjoy this a whole lot.  I see you as far beyond that though, because when you first jumped in, you appeared to be more "level headed" than your buddy Hguols (no offense to him).  In fact, I was nervous that the replies you were getting were going to bother you, and I was right.

You need more time to settle in, and claim your territory, so to speak.  Everyone here will respect you for standing behind your statements, and providing the best evidence you can.  And you know what, as long as you're not breaking forum rules, you can respond in kind, or simply ignore those who do not want to engage in honest discussion.

I hate to add this, but I must.  Believers are all deluded and wrong about their gods.  So us atheists are a bit pre-disposed to call them out on things that we have heard so often, and most of us are not holding our breath that some super-believer is going to wander in here and turn us all into believers (I hope you understand this sentiment!)  It's not intended to slight you or your beliefs, but this is a tough topic, and not many people are that interested in arguing about it.

I read all of your criticisms above, and some of them are likely legitimate.  There are atheists on different scales here, some more agressive than others.  You will learn to pick them out, and understand their style.  From their, you can use your style to take them down...I'm sure they will enjoy the challenge.

[ParkingPlaces]

^^^
A note in support of Jetson's last post.

I have chosen not to get into the fray with DoL because so far he and I have gotten along fine, and I figure the rest of you are big boys and girls and can take care of yourselves. I do not perceive DoL as a typical deranged christian whose only mission here to to show us how we are wrong and get the whole group of us to convert after his second or third post. Yea, he'd like to show us we are wrong, but I don't think he has unrealistic expectations.

I have no understanding why anyone would be into metal music or dwell on death or the other stuff that fascinates DoL, but then he probably can't figure out why I like bird watching and Mozart. So we're even. I'm having fun going back and forth with him and though I understand how easy it is for conversations to deteriorate here at the forum, I am in the mood to keep it civil in this case.

I too have flung insults on this site.

I was willing to do the same with Hgouls but he never once responded to any of my long posts, and I've taken the wild-assed guess of believing he couldn't handle what I was saying, so he ignored me. I don't know that that was the case, but without information to the contrary, I'm choosing that interpretation.

Don't let me down DoL or I'll have to make up stuff about you too! 

[screwtape]

OT was more about the law than anything else. Don’t bother replying here, as I’ll have to research and dig this up.

Sorry, I'm going to reply.

I really don't think the OT was about the law more than anything else.  Only a couple books were dedicated to law - Leviticus and some of Deut.  The rest was a collection of stories that served as a tradition of a shared if completely fabricated history.  I think it was about establishing a national mythology to justify a particular political system - the rule of king Josaiah. The law was part of that.  But it also included an imagined history to support nationalism and the familiar concept that they were a favored group.

[JeffPT]

Okay, you got me there. I haven’t read Deuteronomy. Just remember, there are reasons why they are called OT and NT. OT was more about the law than anything else. Don’t bother replying here, as I’ll have to research and dig this up.

Alright, I won't reply to it here.

As you see, I won't respond to all the other stuff you said about me being silly / crude, as 1. I don't really care, and 2. I've been much more crude and silly with other people, and 3.  Regardless of what Hguols says and what you think, the merits of an argument have nothing to do AT ALL with the way it's presented.  It only matters to people who can't control their own emotions enough to refute things said.  My emotional feelings toward your position and you personally are completely irrelevant.

I’m going to reply to that with this: Why are donations and charities for certain individuals viewed as compassion, but Christ and God doing these things are seen as discrimination? Why is a doctor saving a life considered loving, but Christ resurrecting a dead human seen as selfish? I’m just going to straight up say this: you have a double standard going on here. Because He does something for somebody and not somebody else, He isn’t compassionate? Yet, you yourself will only do something for one and not the other and yet you view what you did as compassionate? Double-standard, straight up.

Because God has the ability to help everyone and humans can't.  That's why.  Very simple.

Let me ask you this.  What if a doctor came up with a surgical procedure that would cure every single person in the world with cancer, and that surgery took no effort, no time, and had no risks at all with it?  Now what would you think of that doctor if he never told anyone else how to do it, and only used it to help a couple people that he personally chose to help?  Would you consider that doctor to be compassionate" or a complete dick?   

You got snippy when I said you should use your free thinking.  This is a perfect example of you not using it.  It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure this stuff out man. 

I get what you are saying, but a compassionate act is a compassionate act. What I see here, is you are trying to put compassion on a scale, and that is not how it works, at least how I view it. Whether you give someone an Egg McMuffin or giving someone a brand new house, free of debt and everything, they are both compassionate actions. For me to give you let’s say $100 and get mad that I didn’t give you $1,000 instead, you are demonizing a compassion that I personally felt honored by giving you, turning a compassionate act into a selfish act.

It's a matter of degree and capability DoL.  Bill Gates giving half his wealth to philanthophic endeavors is significantly more compassionate than giving someone an Egg McMuffin.  Everyone would agree with that.  That's why him giving a homeless man an Egg McMuffin is not news worthy, but giving half his wealth is. 

The only advice here I can give, don’t put everything on a scale, instead be thankful.

No DoL.  Not everything should be judged on the same level.  A homeless man giving another homeless man an Egg McMuffin is giving much more of himself than Bill Gates giving a homeless man an Egg McMuffin.  Whether you want to see life that way or not, everyone else does. 

And that is your choice, and you’re right to choose that. I disagree with your’ choice, but I defend your right to choose that.

By saying this, are you saying you willingly accept the torture and murder of an innocent human being in order to pay for what you, yourself have done in this life?  That's not moral.  It's disgusting.  You have every right to choose it, but I don't have to respect your choice.  Nobody, and I mean NOBODY is going to pay for MY sins with their own life if I can help it.  I would end my own life before I let someone else die for what I've done. 

And this is going back to the close-minded statement. It is already made up in your mind, and I can’t change that. You saying that to me does nothing, because you are not me, and I am not you. This is my problem with atheism. You guys, claiming that others are close-minded, are being close-minded on any form of a proof or possibility of a God or Gods or Goddess or Goddesses existing. If you Truly weren’t close-minded on this, why aren’t you calling yourself an agnostic?

Wrong again DoL.  You COULD change my mind.  All it would take is the same level of convincing evidence that makes me believe that the world is actually round even though it looks flat.  The same level of convincing evidence that makes me think evolution is true.  The same level of convincing evidence that makes me believe the sun is the center of our solar system.  The current evidence for God is not only not convincing, it's laughably weak.  Seriously, it is. 

If you feel the need to label me, DoL, then you can call me an agnostic atheist.  What that means is this... All the gods that I have ever heard of in my lifetime have exactly the same problem.  No evidence.  So, from that I conclude that there is no Christian, Islamic, Jewish, Norse, Pagan, Greek, etc. etc. god(s) out there.  BUT I leave the door open to the possibility that someday, someone (anyone) will present to me any sort of evidence that a god or god(s) exist.  That is NOT closed minded.  That is reasonable, rational, logical, and anything BUT closed minded. 

A true agnostic just sits the fence.  That's not me.  I know there is no Christian God.  I know there is no Islamic God.  But there might be a god out there that someone has yet to discover proof of.  I await that time.  I don't think there is a god, but I am not closed to the option. 

It is the religious mind that says "I know there is a God".  That IS closed minded. 

Since I say this, what makes you think your logic and reason is the correct reason and logic? What kind of logic and reason are you going by? You claim we have a god made up in our heads, but I can simply point the same thing back to you.

The same reason and logic I use for everything else in my life.  You see, when I read the bible I read it like I read every other book ever made.  When you do that, you see talking snakes, giants, dragons, and all sorts of stupid crap that makes no sense.  So I reject it as easily as I reject the talking animals in "Charlotte's Web". 

Ask yourself DoL.  Do you use the same reasoning and logic when it comes to your God belief as you do in your every day life?   

Sorry to bubble burst here bud, but most Christians do exactly what you do.  They pick the stuff out of the bible that they want to follow, and they run with it.  You are no different in that respect.  You may think you are, but the only difference is your take on things.  Funny thing is... you ALL think YOUR version is right.  It's so predictable.  Even the way you approach things from this "hey guys, I'm really on your side" aspect.  As if you are looking for our agreement in some things.  Like you are trying to get our approval.  It's nice and all, but really, you are just doing the same thing as everyone else. 

So with your logic here, you are a very faithful Christian.

LOL.  I am certainly NOT looking for your approval.  I care about truth.  That's it. 

I don't follow anything from the bible.  I reject all of it.  Just as I reject the Koran, the Torah, the book of the dead, and all the other religious texts out there.  That has nothing at all to do with what I DO believe. 

And you can deny a pig existing, but the pig still exists.

I can prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that pigs exist.  You can't prove, even remotely, that God exists.  I can put lipstick on something that exists.  I can't put lipstick on God.  You figure out the connection. 

Apparantly, I’m not the only one who has no problems with self deception.

Can you point to anything I have said that seems that to point to me deceiving myself?  And if you want to say I am deceiving myself by NOT believing in God, then all you have to do is prove that God exists.  All it would take is similar evidence that it would take to convince me that pigs exist.  Or better yet, imagine what evidence it would take for you to logically conclude beyond reasonable doubt that Thor exists.  Once you know what it would take to convince you of Thor's existence, think about how much evidence you have for your God and see if it passes that test.  If you really feel you have it for your personal version of God, go for it.  I am not closed to the possibility of being wrong.  You already started off in the right foot by saying (I think it was you in an earlier post) that God is not all good.  That's a very good start.  This world is surely evidence of that. 

Otherwise I am going to continue my thought that your God is equally as invalid as Allah, Thor, Zeus and all the rest. 

[Death over Life]

^^^
A note in support of Jetson's last post.

I have chosen not to get into the fray with DoL because so far he and I have gotten along fine, and I figure the rest of you are big boys and girls and can take care of yourselves. I do not perceive DoL as a typical deranged christian whose only mission here to to show us how we are wrong and get the whole group of us to convert after his second or third post. Yea, he'd like to show us we are wrong, but I don't think he has unrealistic expectations.

I have no understanding why anyone would be into metal music or dwell on death or the other stuff that fascinates DoL, but then he probably can't figure out why I like bird watching and Mozart. So we're even. I'm having fun going back and forth with him and though I understand how easy it is for conversations to deteriorate here at the forum, I am in the mood to keep it civil in this case.

I too have flung insults on this site.

I was willing to do the same with Hgouls but he never once responded to any of my long posts, and I've taken the wild-assed guess of believing he couldn't handle what I was saying, so he ignored me. I don't know that that was the case, but without information to the contrary, I'm choosing that interpretation.

Don't let me down DoL or I'll have to make up stuff about you too! 

Some of you have been given great responses and I will respond to them in the near future. PP, if you wish, I could attempt to show you that some Black Metal bands, can make great non-metal music as well. Check out the band Ulver, when they were black metal. 1st they had a folkish black metal album, then they made one of my favorite albums ever, an accoustic folk album called Kveldssanger. Nowadays though, they play from avant-garde, to hip-hop to rock, just about any genre you can think of but of a few they have at least dabbled in it.

Here is a song to help you out if you wish. It will explain only a touch on why I love extreme metal. Note, not one hint of metal whatsoever.



But this also reminds me of an acoustic song that I think also shows you why, purely acoustic instrumental.



I'm very glad we are starting to stray from religion purely. It gives off a nice breather. Yes, I do know why you like Mozart. Eine Kleine Nachtmusik FTW!!!\m/

I don't have much, but I do love Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, a song from Palchabel, and I need to look into Wagner. Also, I do love some dark ambient bands like Nox Arcana and Elend. Also, I don't know the original artist, but I LOVE the song Carmina Burana!

This is also making me want to recommend checking out Therion. They debuted as a death metal band, but over time, progressed into a symphonic/opera metal band. I love their album Vovin and wish to get their newest album Sitra Ahra.

[Graybeard]

I feel I can actually discuss with them and we can leave behind silly statements and crude remarks that Jeff and Graybeard have made.

From Graybeard:

This is a little to to side of the main topic, but you have provided a perfect example of the thought that the average Christian gives to his beliefs.

Parking Places has outlined the logical errors in Genesis and the injustice perpetrated by the alleged creator, yet you simply have never seen these faults; yet you believe! Genesis, literal or metaphorical, is the foundation of the whole religion and you have never examined it critically.

Did you never think to examine what it is you have spent most of your life saying?

If none of this say anything, then I will honestly sense religious discrimination here.[/quote]
Well, I am surprised at your reaction and TBH I find nothing for which to apologise. I left a question at the end of my post and if you had an answer I would have been pleased to hear it - as yet, i have not.

The charge of "religious discrimination" is laughable. I remember being with a police officer as he arrested a West African. The West African said, "Are you doing this because I'm black?"

The police officer said, "No, it's because you were carrying 4 stolen credit cards and $2000 in forged US banknotes."

So much for discrimination.

Pat Condell expresses my views perfectly

[Death over Life]

Let me ask you this.  What if a doctor came up with a surgical procedure that would cure every single person in the world with cancer, and that surgery took no effort, no time, and had no risks at all with it?  Now what would you think of that doctor if he never told anyone else how to do it, and only used it to help a couple people that he personally chose to help?  Would you consider that doctor to be compassionate" or a complete dick?   

These questions are starting to go nowhere.

The answer is, both and neither. There is far to much gray area to be taken into consideration to Truly know if He is being compassionate, or a complete dick.

This is the big thing: We can not read other people’s minds. We can not look at personal motives, nor reasons. For all we know, revealing that practice could be biggest dick of a move, because He knows He will be rich and use this new found fame to promote Himself to high will. Or it could be compassionate because, He don’t care about fame and riches, and knows He is saving lives, which is what He cares about.

The answer is, we don’t Truly know. Therefore we judge.

By saying this, are you saying you willingly accept the torture and murder of an innocent human being in order to pay for what you, yourself have done in this life?  That's not moral.  It's disgusting.  You have every right to choose it, but I don't have to respect your choice.  Nobody, and I mean NOBODY is going to pay for MY sins with their own life if I can help it.  I would end my own life before I let someone else die for what I've done. 

Well, so much for the military or the police force! They pretty much do exactly as Christ did. The only difference, Christ protecting us from death, while Military protecting us from other nations that want us dead (North Korea for example) and Police to save us from dying by criminal hands.

Oh yeah, and Christ didn’t get to get paid for what He did.

Wrong again DoL.  You COULD change my mind.  All it would take is the same level of convincing evidence that makes me believe that the world is actually round even though it looks flat.  The same level of convincing evidence that makes me think evolution is true.  The same level of convincing evidence that makes me believe the sun is the center of our solar system.  The current evidence for God is not only not convincing, it's laughably weak.  Seriously, it is.

I could be God incarnate and teleport right in front of you, and you still wouldn’t believe me. I can do whatever, and show you whatever. I can’t control your mind. All I can do is discuss with you. It’s up to you, not me to change your mind.

Take into consideration, the Bible shows that people who grew up and lived with Jesus their whole lives, saw everything, and they STILL questioned Christ’s validity. Now, we would all dream of being in their position just so we could have a be-all-end-all answer, and the ones who got to experience that still questioned.

If you feel the need to label me, DoL, then you can call me an agnostic atheist.  What that means is this... All the gods that I have ever heard of in my lifetime have exactly the same problem.  No evidence.  So, from that I conclude that there is no Christian, Islamic, Jewish, Norse, Pagan, Greek, etc. etc. god(s) out there.  BUT I leave the door open to the possibility that someday, someone (anyone) will present to me any sort of evidence that a god or god(s) exist.  That is NOT closed minded.  That is reasonable, rational, logical, and anything BUT closed minded. 

A true agnostic just sits the fence.  That's not me.  I know there is no Christian God.  I know there is no Islamic God.  But there might be a god out there that someone has yet to discover proof of.  I await that time.  I don't think there is a god, but I am not closed to the option. 

It is the religious mind that says "I know there is a God".  That IS closed minded. 

It is the religious mind that says "I know there is a God".  That IS closed minded. 

I know there is no Christian God. 

I don't think there is a god, but I am not closed to the option. 

I know I did my fair share of it, but which is it? Do you know there is no God? Or do you think there isn’t a god? You can’t make both statements and say you are open minded and turn around and say I’m close minded because I believe in one. You just contradicted yourself here.

The same reason and logic I use for everything else in my life.  You see, when I read the bible I read it like I read every other book ever made.  When you do that, you see talking snakes, giants, dragons, and all sorts of stupid crap that makes no sense.  So I reject it as easily as I reject the talking animals in "Charlotte's Web". 

Ask yourself DoL.  Do you use the same reasoning and logic when it comes to your God belief as you do in your every day life?   

A very valid question that I can not answer at this time.

Apparantly, I’m not the only one who has no problems with self deception.

Can you point to anything I have said that seems that to point to me deceiving myself?  And if you want to say I am deceiving myself by NOT believing in God, then all you have to do is prove that God exists.  All it would take is similar evidence that it would take to convince me that pigs exist.  Or better yet, imagine what evidence it would take for you to logically conclude beyond reasonable doubt that Thor exists.  Once you know what it would take to convince you of Thor's existence, think about how much evidence you have for your God and see if it passes that test.  If you really feel you have it for your personal version of God, go for it.  I am not closed to the possibility of being wrong.  You already started off in the right foot by saying (I think it was you in an earlier post) that God is not all good.  That's a very good start.  This world is surely evidence of that. 

Otherwise I am going to continue my thought that your God is equally as invalid as Allah, Thor, Zeus and all the rest.

The only things I can use as proof atm are the lives and testimony’s of those who lived around that time, the Apostles, the death and resurrection, the strange things that go on within Catholicism, the settings of the times and places at the time, and even the testimony’s of the anti-Christians at that time.

What I do not understand is, why are all the evidence we use for certain beliefs valid in terms of culture and all that, where we even question the existence of Christ and what is written about Him, since Christianity is actually a newer kind of faith? Christians back in the day aren’t the only ones who wrote of a black out after Christ died.

There were many non-Christians who wrote, and even to an extent, validated Jesus, like Josephus for example.

The only thing you can go by is Trusting what individuals say during that time period. Today’s Christianity is a shell of it’s former faith, and it’s either believe or don’t believe what they say.

You will never find a proof of proof, (unless today’s Christianity is true about that “rapture” doctrine and we see millions of people disappear right before your’ eyes.)

I can not create your’ faith. You can not and can never have my faith (And I don’t think you even want my faith either which is cool with me.) Truthfully, if you wish to see faith, you have to diligently seek it yourself, within yourself, and do this on your’ own, with no outside influence or interference.

I believe Life is far to complex to even think of considering it to be an ultimate fluke. I have heard somewhere where it is stated, the tiniest thing that makes our natural order go wrong, and existence will basically implode on itself just like that.

I feel I can actually discuss with them and we can leave behind silly statements and crude remarks that Jeff and Graybeard have made.

From Graybeard:

This is a little to to side of the main topic, but you have provided a perfect example of the thought that the average Christian gives to his beliefs.

Parking Places has outlined the logical errors in Genesis and the injustice perpetrated by the alleged creator, yet you simply have never seen these faults; yet you believe! Genesis, literal or metaphorical, is the foundation of the whole religion and you have never examined it critically.

Did you never think to examine what it is you have spent most of your life saying?

If none of this say anything, then I will honestly sense religious discrimination here.

Well, I am surprised at your reaction and TBH I find nothing for which to apologise. I left a question at the end of my post and if you had an answer I would have been pleased to hear it - as yet, i have not.
[/quote]

And as I said, I'm still new to the faith. Until very recently, I've only read the Book of Jude, and never gave any thoughts like what you guys are talking about. I only started to think critically about a couple years ago. I thought critically, and became so hateful of what I was reading I rejected Christianity. The main reason why I came back, was because of how ill informed I was on the faith, and I was looking at Christians to see if that is God. Now, I just lock myself away and just read and research on my own.

As of today, I've only read mostly the small 1-2 page NT books alone. The only big book I've really read was Hebrews. Literally, for weeks to months, and even while I made my account here, I was in a heavy, "I don't care" attitude towards it all. I quit caring about reading the Bible or caring about what anybody had to say. The good thing about this is, you guys are getting me back into caring again, and for that, you guys deserve respect. Outside of that, I still have a somewhat I don't care attitude. Why I don't really care is because, we'll find out when we are dead. This is why I view death as a good thing, not a sorrowful experience. Everything will be answered at that moment. Why I view death as a good thing is because we will no longer have to wonder, to fear, to love, to care, to hope, to hate, to get pissed off, to get hurt, to think, to suffer. It will all be gone. Leaving the Only True value of life I see if there is no God: Pointlessness. Because, every work you do, every good thing in the end, is all a waste.

[Death over Life]

Pat Condell expresses my views perfectly

If that is how you honestly feel, then why not just ignore me? You really don't want me to reply to this video.

[Graybeard]

Oh yeah, and Christ didn’t get to get paid for what He did.

You did say that you had not read much of the Bible - it is therefore a good idea not to make statements that the Bible contradicts: Joh:13:29: For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.

That means the bag of money that the disciples had. The money had to come from somewhere, didn't it? So who was doing what and who paid whom?

Pat Condell expresses my views perfectly

If that is how you honestly feel, then why not just ignore me?

You suggest that no one should ever question what you believe or why you believe it, yet you come to WWGHA and tell us why you believe in a god?

My question is if you do not wish to have other points of view, why did you post here? Why did you not "just ignore" WWGHA?

I'm getting the impression that it is OK if you do it, because you have God on your side... Am I right?

You really don't want me to reply to this video.

Do what you want. Your reply would make a good new thread.

[Death over Life]

Oh yeah, and Christ didn’t get to get paid for what He did.

You did say that you had not read much of the Bible - it is therefore a good idea not to make statements that the Bible contradicts: Joh:13:29: For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.

That means the bag of money that the disciples had. The money had to come from somewhere, didn't it? So who was doing what and who paid whom?

Pat Condell expresses my views perfectly

If that is how you honestly feel, then why not just ignore me?

You suggest that no one should ever question what you believe or why you believe it, yet you come to WWGHA and tell us why you believe in a god?

My question is if you do not wish to have other points of view, why did you post here? Why did you not "just ignore" WWGHA?

I'm getting the impression that it is OK if you do it, because you have God on your side... Am I right?

You really don't want me to reply to this video.

Do what you want. Your reply would make a good new thread.

I did not say that. I actually watched the video. Pat Condell said He has had it up to here with hearing us quote the Bible. He gives as much respect to a theist as long as He can look into our beliefs while keeping a straight face (½ a second), the fact that I request we discuss civilly, according to Him, means I deserve even more mocking and ridicule. And no way around it, because I believe, I’m mentally ill! So, what can you learn from a mentally ill person?

With the whole challenging theist vs. atheist thing, whether good or bad, you got to admit, theists can at least have an excuse for being an ass. Atheists, they have no excuse, since they can’t claim a God. Theists, at least they were deceived into being an ass, but atheists, if you are an ass, you are an ASS!

That is about Pat Condell’s video, not particularly to you at all graybeard.

I know you have heard the same stuff over and over again, and you are sick of it. Christian or not, this is where I see exactly what the Bible means when it says for us to have patience and virtue.

EDIT: I completely ignored the other part of the thread I wanted to reply to. My apologies. I came here initially, because I wanted to get to know what the atheist thinks. I've never engaged with an atheist at all on subjects like this. I have usually always been quite ignorant of atheism because I always saw it as immature, laughable, and childish. I usually see that atheists act like know it all's who only care about themselves and because they don't believe in God, they are better than everyone else.

I have heard things by individuals like Richard Dawkins, and the like, but never think much of them.

I had decided to completely drop all of that viewpoint, to engage. Yes, you guys apparantly know much more than I do. There is a reason why my newspaper said, nobody's an atheist for no reason at all. Much kudos for that.

You guys have really surprised me in that department, and I should have known better. The only thing I can properly critique is the way some like to present it.

Others, as much as they dislike what I believe, I've really gotten along with them and see them as a member of my family. If I am treated harshly by wanting to be challenged, the whole point of the forum is lost to me, and it becomes personal. I know that  I can learn a lot here, and that I can help contribute.

All I can say left though, is if atheism (whether True or lie) causes me to become like how that Pat Condell video portrayed Him, I will love to stay mentally retarded than to ever consider following the Truth because I know deceiving myself would make me a better person.

I'm understanding in the Bible why it says to be humble, meek, and show humility instead of having an oversaturated ego.

[monkeymind]

SORRY! MindFart

Accidental post removed

[PostalGirl]

This thread has gotten too scattered to continue. It's time to lock it up. Please take the remainder of any valid discussion/debate to another thread(s). Thanks, guys.