Author Topic: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [#2449]  (Read 7947 times)

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Offline PostalGirl

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Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [#2449]
« on: December 15, 2010, 12:47:58 PM »
One of the major (if not total) components of spirituality or religion is a faith in God. 

Faith (like many words) has multiple definitions, but in regards to Christianity, religion or even spirituality in general, there are some strict guidelines to how faith is defined. 

The entire faith concept is believing in something you can't see nor can prove.  Oscar Wilde I believe is right. "Religions die when they are proved to be true. Science is the record of dead religions.".  Point being, if you can prove it, it's not faith - its something else.

There are many Biblical references about God/Christ wanting us to have faith.  This is why God isn't walking around, easily seen, and restoring limbs, lives and performing other blatant miracles.  If someone lost a limb, and "magically" has a limb again, or someone died and was buried, then is alive again, the jig is up!  To many of those who already believe, it would be undeniable proof.  That proof would essentially destroy their faith.

What about other "miracles"?  Brain disease, cancers, the example of rabies on your site.....   It would be downright impossible to prove God removed a malady compared to proof of God restoring something that was completely destroyed....   like a leg or a life.

Why does God want us to faith instead of proof?  I can't answer that question.  Perhaps is has to do with free will and the choices we make.  ....perhaps it means more to God for us to believe in him despite tangible evidence, rather than everyone stopping by his house to tell Him "Hello" and thanking Him for magic-trick style miracles. 

Once again, I don't really know why God wants faith.....   but I have faith that He does.

Those are my comments....
« Last Edit: December 19, 2010, 06:23:03 PM by PostalGirl »

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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2010, 12:52:23 PM »
What about all the people in the Bible that Jesus healed, in front of tons of witnesses? So he cares about our free will but not theirs?
That's nice of him. He should really talk to all those people literally dying of pain - yes, OF pain. Not IN pain
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2010, 01:14:39 PM »
God never had any problems with providing evidence in the bible. All you had to do was call his name and he came running up to hump your leg like a trained dog. This is the same god who brought down a hail of frogs, turned rivers into blood, and killed the innocent first born children of a nation for the express of showing people how awesome he is. The god who appeared as a giant whirlwind to yell down at Job and his friends about how grand and powerful he is. Who destroyed the Tower of Babel and scattered humanity to the four winds, altering human language irrevocably in the process to show his displeasure. The biblical god is about as subtle as a trainwreck...........on a boat.

The bible clearly uses faith in the sense of trusting god, as opposed to how modern christians try and use it. There is no reason at all for why there should be any question of whether god exists if the bible has any truth to it. The fact that christians have to believe without any evidence is probably the biggest indicator of all that their religion is false. If you ever have to use faith to justify a belief, all you're really saying is that your beliefs have no merit.

As another atheist I met once said "Every description of god is an excuse for his absence."

As for free-will, the concept is completely ridiculous as far as christian theology goes. Free will goes against pretty just about every aspect of their faith that I can think of at the moment. Nevermind that it completely goes against everything the bible says.
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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2010, 01:22:17 PM »
The entire faith concept is believing in something you can't see nor can prove. 

*snips*

Once again, I don't really know why God wants faith.....   but I have faith that He does.

So...... what's the difference between a god doesn't do anything(but wants "faith"), and a god that doesn't exist at all?
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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2010, 01:32:07 PM »

There are many Biblical references about God/Christ wanting us to have faith.  This is why God isn't walking around, easily seen, and restoring limbs, lives and performing other blatant miracles.  If someone lost a limb, and "magically" has a limb again, or someone died and was buried, then is alive again, the jig is up!  To many of those who already believe, it would be undeniable proof.  That proof would essentially destroy their faith.

What about other "miracles"?  Brain disease, cancers, the example of rabies on your site.....   It would be downright impossible to prove God removed a malady compared to proof of God restoring something that was completely destroyed....   like a leg or a life.


Yet in the bible, god / Christ does walk around and is easily seen by (supposedly) thousands at a time, performing miracles. If faith is dependent on such things being only heresay and unprovable, why was the faith of those witnesses undamaged, or even placed at risk in the first place?


Why does God want us to faith instead of proof?  I can't answer that question.  Perhaps is has to do with free will and the choices we make.  ....perhaps it means more to God for us to believe in him despite tangible evidence, rather than everyone stopping by his house to tell Him "Hello" and thanking Him for magic-trick style miracles. 


But without tangible evidence of his existence, I have no reason to believe in biblegod. That is in fact one of the main reasons I stopped being a Christian after nearly 15 years of faith. And a god who hid and valued the praise of those who believed in him without evidence sounds more like a con man than an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving deity.


Once again, I don't really know why God wants faith.....   but I have faith that He does.

Those are my comments....


I'm sorry you're so content in your ignorance. It will not serve you well; you are far better off exercising your capacity for reason and logic, letting those inform your empathy and compassion.
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2010, 02:18:35 PM »
Quote
One of the major (if not total) components of spirituality or religion is a faith in God.
 

That's because you have no evidence.  If you had evidence, you wouldn't need faith. 

Quote
The entire faith concept is believing in something you can't see nor can prove.

Exactly.  Why anyone would see that as a positive thing is beyond me.  Oh wait, scratch that.  It's not beyond me.  I know why someone would see that as a positive thing.  If their religion said "Faith is a good thing", then they would simply believe it.  Otherwise, the notion of believing in something that you can't see or prove is a really dumb idea.   

Quote
Oscar Wilde I believe is right. "Religions die when they are proved to be true. Science is the record of dead religions.". 

I like what Mark Twain says.  "Faith is believing in something you know ain't true." 

There are many Biblical references about God/Christ wanting us to have faith.  This is why God isn't walking around, easily seen, and restoring limbs, lives and performing other blatant miracles.  If someone lost a limb, and "magically" has a limb again, or someone died and was buried, then is alive again, the jig is up!  To many of those who already believe, it would be undeniable proof.  That proof would essentially destroy their faith.

And garner literally billions of new followers. 

The other possibility to why God doesn't heal amputees is that God is not real in the first place.  That would (and does) explain a lot of things actually. 

Why does God want us to faith instead of proof?  I can't answer that question.  Perhaps is has to do with free will and the choices we make.  ....perhaps it means more to God for us to believe in him despite tangible evidence, rather than everyone stopping by his house to tell Him "Hello" and thanking Him for magic-trick style miracles. 

The other option is that God is not real, and the people who wrote the bible knew they had no proof. So what did they do?  Easy.  They made faith a virtuous thing simply by stating that we had to have faith.  Fast forward 2000 years and we still have gullible people believing that nonsense because it's been passed down by other gullible people for centuries. 

Once again, I don't really know why God wants faith.....   but I have faith that He does.

That's embarrassing for you.  Maybe you should try using your brain instead of your emotions to decide between truth and fiction.  You'd be surprised how much you can learn.  Just stop and think... is it more reasonable that God really does exist, but he hides himself from us for some strange reason that we don't know, or He's just not real in the first place?  Do you really think it's a better choice to decide to have faith in the reasoning of something you can't prove exists in the first place?  Seriously.  Come on now. 
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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2010, 02:23:50 PM »
The entire faith concept is believing in something you can't see nor can prove. 
Yes, but why does this ‘thing in which you have faith’ have to be a the Christian deity? What, for example, is your view of a devout Hindu filled with faith?

What do you think that Hindu's view of you is?

Why is he wrong and you right?

Quote
Why does God want us to faith instead of proof?  I can't answer that question. 
Does this indicate that you don’t know why you have faith?

Quote
Once again, I don't really know why God wants faith.....   but I have faith that He does.

This is the mathematical derivative of faith, i.e.“ having faith that something wants you to have faith.” Is it necessary or even logical?

What would happen if you did not have faith?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 02:26:00 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2010, 02:41:10 PM »
This sounds just like the Santa concept.  Children believe and as they get older still want to believe so bad until it just is no use any longer.  The God concept is the same except that it carries over into adulthood for many.  They will twist and use all kinds of thinking to keep the faith alive.  The security blanket, that is God, is hard to tear away from some.  Living in a delusional world is preferred by some.
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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2010, 02:56:03 PM »
Once again, I don't really know why God wants faith.....   but I have faith that He does.

Those are my comments....
Yes, but what about the Christians who then claim to KNOW God exist?

Knowledge is not faith, but plenty of people like to claim otherwise.  If God merely wants faith, isn't the pretense of knowledge dishonest?
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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2010, 05:31:07 PM »
Well then, if you are one of those people who don't pray when sick, or when in need then it's all fine and good, are and you can ignore the question of why god wont heal amputees, even though Jesus has healed people in the bible, like the blind man in John 9, heals the guys ear in Luke 22, and sends a man's demons into a herd of pigs in Mark 5 (even though the demons basically begged Jesus to), yet at Jesus' time (assuming he lived in the first place) many people doubted his divinity, much like today and the people who post on this board.

If Jesus was so incredibly miraculous in the bible why not continue that trend today. Even after those amazing things the bible mentions him doing many people still doubted he was the son of god. If Jesus just wanted to gain followers he could've gone the way that Muhammad did, and not preform anything miraculous, but only preach the word of god, and gain followers that way. I mean, it worked with other so called prophets.

Why does God want us to faith instead of proof?  I can't answer that question.  Perhaps is has to do with free will and the choices we make.

You can keep having free will with god showing himself. Just look at what happened with Jesus. Even if he showed himself wouldn't mean people would worship him. Sure they would believe in him but certainly not worship him. The number of believers would definitely go up, but isn't that really what god wants anyways. He loves us, remember, but he is the only who is staying hidden from those he loves. Did his own son go against god's wishes when he came to earth?

What good is believing in something if there isn't anything evidence for it.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 07:07:50 PM by Emily »
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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2010, 10:19:35 PM »
In religion faith is the most asinine concept of them all.
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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2010, 12:00:42 AM »
Kind of curious how you think the first commandment fits in to your theory.  Remember this was a COMMANDMENT.  Carved in to stone himself.  The FIRST one.  "I amthe lord your god, you shall have no other gods before me".  He stated this as his first commandment!  In stone!  And yet you dont think he wants us to have direct knowledge of him?

And he does appear to his creation in the bible.  All over the place.  And despite what you state, theres nothing in the bible which states anything about how he was going to stay hidden from his creation so they could have faith in him.  And it wouldn't make sense if he did.

You ever notice that in the bible, he seems to take a very personal interest in the Israelites?  His "chosen people"?  What do you think is more likely, that he picks a subset of his creation and picks their side in wars massacring their enemies (and incidentally at some point no longer considering them a chosen people).  Or that they were the chosen people in their god belief because he bible was THEIR mythology?

The reason your god stays hidden is because he doesn't exist.  Pure and simple.
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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2010, 11:40:37 AM »
Why does God want us to faith instead of proof?  I can't answer that question.  Perhaps is has to do with free will and the choices we make.  ....perhaps it means more to God for us to believe in him despite tangible evidence, rather than everyone stopping by his house to tell Him "Hello" and thanking Him for magic-trick style miracles. 

Here is a simpler answer - there are no gods, but priests and other con men use faith to stay in business.  Would that not be an excellent way to shut up nay sayers? 

Wouldn't pharmaceutical companies love it if they could get by on faith instead of proving their drugs work?  Wouldn't car makers love it if you just had faith their cars were safe, instead of proving it?  Wouldn't students love it if their teachers had faith they learned their lessons, instead of having to be tested and prove it?

Keep in mind, when we speak of faith in any other context, it is not blind, unsupportable faith, like it is with gods.  We always base our faith on a prior pattern of behavior.  I have faith in my wife because for many years she has shown she deserved it.  When I first met her, I did not have that kind of faith in her because she had not earned it.  And really, neither has god.
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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2010, 01:04:32 PM »
Hello.  I'm the actual author to the letter.  Nice to meet you all.

To reply to a few of the posts....

Why does God want us to faith instead of proof?  I can't answer that question.  Perhaps is has to do with free will and the choices we make.  ....perhaps it means more to God for us to believe in him despite tangible evidence, rather than everyone stopping by his house to tell Him "Hello" and thanking Him for magic-trick style miracles. 

Here is a simpler answer - there are no gods, but priests and other con men use faith to stay in business.  Would that not be an excellent way to shut up nay sayers?

Don't you mean there are no "true" gods?  Look throughout history.  There have been many gods.
I don't doubt some of the leaders are in it for the money, but I can't speak for everyone because I don't know everyone.

Once again, I don't really know why God wants faith.....   but I have faith that He does.

Those are my comments....
Yes, but what about the Christians who then claim to KNOW God exist?

Knowledge is not faith, but plenty of people like to claim otherwise.  If God merely wants faith, isn't the pretense of knowledge dishonest?

Seriously.  How many people do you really know claim to know God exists?  I don't know any personally. 

This sounds just like the Santa concept.  Children believe and as they get older still want to believe so bad until it just is no use any longer.  The God concept is the same except that it carries over into adulthood for many.  They will twist and use all kinds of thinking to keep the faith alive.  The security blanket, that is God, is hard to tear away from some.  Living in a delusional world is preferred by some.

Couldn't someone, even a Christian perhaps, say the same thing in regards to atheism? 

The entire faith concept is believing in something you can't see nor can prove. 
Yes, but why does this ‘thing in which you have faith’ have to be a the Christian deity? What, for example, is your view of a devout Hindu filled with faith?

What do you think that Hindu's view of you is?

Why is he wrong and you right?

I don't recall even mentioning Christianity or any religion in general. 
What I had in mind was spirituality, in general.

This is the mathematical derivative of faith, i.e.“ having faith that something wants you to have faith.” Is it necessary or even logical?

What would happen if you did not have faith?

HAHAHAHA!!!!  That example is redundant.
What would happen if I did not have faith?  ....I gotta say.  That's the best question asked from what I've seen thus far.

I would have a different outlook on life if I didn't have faith.  Having been without it before, I got to say I prefer this concept in my life.

There are many Biblical references about God/Christ wanting us to have faith.  This is why God isn't walking around, easily seen, and restoring limbs, lives and performing other blatant miracles.  If someone lost a limb, and "magically" has a limb again, or someone died and was buried, then is alive again, the jig is up!  To many of those who already believe, it would be undeniable proof.  That proof would essentially destroy their faith.

And garner literally billions of new followers. 

The other possibility to why God doesn't heal amputees is that God is not real in the first place.  That would (and does) explain a lot of things actually.

....the fact the billions of people buy into this concept in one form or another (not even talking about Christianity specifically), hasn't it even crossed your mind that maybe, just maybe, you're missing out on something? 

I certainly hope you've looked into this with an open mind rather than than just deeming what you disagree with as wrong....

...and that very well might be a possibility why God doesn't heal amputees.  I'm not going to say you're incorrect, because that's actually you're own brand of faith.  (believing in what you can't prove)  Unless I'm one of the billions that missed out on the undeniable proof that God doesn't exist.

God never had any problems with providing evidence in the bible. All you had to do was call his name and he came running up to hump your leg like a trained dog. This is the same god who brought down a hail of frogs, turned rivers into blood, and killed the innocent first born children of a nation for the express of showing people how awesome he is. The god who appeared as a giant whirlwind to yell down at Job and his friends about how grand and powerful he is. Who destroyed the Tower of Babel and scattered humanity to the four winds, altering human language irrevocably in the process to show his displeasure. The biblical god is about as subtle as a trainwreck...........on a boat.

The bible clearly uses faith in the sense of trusting god, as opposed to how modern christians try and use it. There is no reason at all for why there should be any question of whether god exists if the bible has any truth to it. The fact that christians have to believe without any evidence is probably the biggest indicator of all that their religion is false. If you ever have to use faith to justify a belief, all you're really saying is that your beliefs have no merit.

As another atheist I met once said "Every description of god is an excuse for his absence."

As for free-will, the concept is completely ridiculous as far as christian theology goes. Free will goes against pretty just about every aspect of their faith that I can think of at the moment. Nevermind that it completely goes against everything the bible says.

Good post.  ....and you're right.  There's blatant documented evidence in the bible of first hand and undeniable miracles.  If you believe all that, then try to weigh that in regards to life today....   there are a few inconsistencies. 

...but that's expected with documentation that's literally thousands of years old.

I don't have an answer as to why miracles in the Bible were so prominent then, and are non-existent now.  I wasn't there, so I don't know.  The only explanation I can offer is that God wanted something different from humanity.  *shrugs*

In regards to merit with faith and beliefs, to me that's relative.  While this is an extreme example, if someone finds happiness, contentment and peace of mind by standing in oatmeal and hitting themselves in the face with a ruler on a daily basis....   I'd say.  "Whatever floats your boat man."

Sure I might have reservations on their level of sanity, and probably question why in the world someone would do that....   but if that really brings peace of mind, happiness and contentment to someone, what does that say about me if I tell this person, "Knock it off.  Don't do that, that's wrong and crazy.  Don't do that to be happy, do what I do". 

That wreaks of pride, and me thinking I know what's better for this person than they do.
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Thanks for the input guys.  ....and while we might disagree, I'll respect the hell out of ya', that's for sure.



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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2010, 01:13:03 PM »
Welcome
Hello.  I'm the actual author to the letter.  Nice to meet you all.

What would happen if I did not have faith?  ....I gotta say.  That's the best question asked from what I've seen thus far.

I would have a different outlook on life if I didn't have faith.  Having been without it before, I got to say I prefer this concept in my life.
Why?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2010, 01:23:13 PM »
Hello.  I'm the actual author to the letter.  Nice to meet you all.

Hey Hguols.  Nice of you to drop by.  Welcome.

Don't you mean there are no "true" gods?  Look throughout history.  There have been many gods.
I don't doubt some of the leaders are in it for the money, but I can't speak for everyone because I don't know everyone.

Don't be pedantic.  You know what I mean.  The response you gave avoids my point. 

You brought up faith.  You even admitted you cannot explain why yhwh allegedly has such a hard-on for it.   I gave you a simple, sensible, completely consistent with human behavior explanation.  I even gave you a terrific example of actual faith in action.  And your reply did not come within shouting distance of addressing it. 

Come on now, use your noodle.  Why is faith without evidence so important to your god?  Why the cosmic game of hide and seek?  Afterall, it is not like faith is something you can get good at.  Why would your god base our eternal doom on such a thin, flimsy thing as faith?  Why not something we can exercise, like math or jogging?  Why would an omnimax creator of the universe care whether we believed it existed?  These are not rhetorical questions.

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Offline Historicity

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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2010, 01:31:00 PM »
Why does God want us to faith instead of proof?  I can't answer that question.  P

Herodotus said the reason that Gods make themselves scarce so much is that they didn't really want to contact us at all one way or the other.  He said it was the greatest advancement in human history when we discovered Their existence and created altars and sacrifices which got Their reluctant attention.

Basically, we are telemarketers repeatedly phoning the Gods about supper time to ask whether They've had time to think over our limited time offer or the free gift.  Most of the time the God we dialed just slams down the phone.

Well, it's logical.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 01:33:32 PM by Historicity »

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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2010, 01:44:08 PM »
Welcome to the fold, Hguols. Thanks for joining.

Seriously.  How many people do you really know claim to know God exists?  I don't know any personally. 
Stick around here for a while and you'll see a plenty. You'll also see plenty of christians who tell the atheists here that we know god exists, too, but that we're refusing to accept it so that we can live our lives full 'o' sin.

Hope you enjoy the forum.
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2010, 01:52:09 PM »
This sounds just like the Santa concept.  Children believe and as they get older still want to believe so bad until it just is no use any longer.  The God concept is the same except that it carries over into adulthood for many.  They will twist and use all kinds of thinking to keep the faith alive.  The security blanket, that is God, is hard to tear away from some.  Living in a delusional world is preferred by some.

Couldn't someone, even a Christian perhaps, say the same thing in regards to atheism? 

How so?  How can atheism be considered a "security blanket"?  How do atheists "twist and use all kinds of thinking" to keep the uh... non-faith alive?



Quote
....the fact the billions of people buy into this concept in one form or another (not even talking about Christianity specifically), hasn't it even crossed your mind that maybe, just maybe, you're missing out on something? 

I certainly hope you've looked into this with an open mind rather than than just deeming what you disagree with as wrong....


Most of us here are former theists.  We used to believe, we used to have faith.  Then we thought about it, and realized it made no sense whatsoever.

Generally, it's not going to go over well if you're going to try to tell us to "open our minds", because we DID open our minds.  We opened our minds to the possibiliy that theism is wrong and that maybe atheism is correct.  Once we did that and examined both sides of the issue, we found that atheism made far more sense.



Quote
I don't have an answer as to why miracles in the Bible were so prominent then, and are non-existent now.  I wasn't there, so I don't know.  The only explanation I can offer is that God wanted something different from humanity.  *shrugs*

I can think of another explanation that makes more sense.  The stories and miracles in the bible are all made up.  This explains perfectly why miracles were an everyday sort of thing back then, but not now; there never were any miracles to begin with.  Likewise, this explains perfectly unanswered prayers and the absent of god; god doesn't exist, so of course prayers would go unanswered.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2010, 02:00:14 PM »

Good post.  ....and you're right.  There's blatant documented evidence in the bible of first hand and undeniable miracles.  If you believe all that, then try to weigh that in regards to life today....   there are a few inconsistencies. 

...but that's expected with documentation that's literally thousands of years old.

I don't have an answer as to why miracles in the Bible were so prominent then, and are non-existent now.  I wasn't there, so I don't know.  The only explanation I can offer is that God wanted something different from humanity.  *shrugs*


Your claim was that the need for faith is why god doesn't do miracles and why amputees are not healed. Also that this is why god doesn't appear. I pointed out that this has never been a requirement for god to perform miracles. Nor that god has ever required or asked for faith in the sense of belief without evidence in the bible. Your entire assertion is shown to be patently wrong by this alone. There is never a requirement in the bible for faith like this, and if god existed there would certainly be multitudes of evidence for his existence. Not even modern proof, many of his miracles and actions that he supposedly performed would have drastically changed the world and how it works even to this day. Except we don't see that. Only when proof is asked for do religious people start talking about having faith in that sense.

So the main point of your post is demonstrably wrong. Then you try to cover this up by saying that you have no proof and can't provide any. In other words that you're just making this up. You don't seem to actually 'know' anything. Your initial post made a claim and then you just waffle around saying nothing of substance. If you have no proof, and can't make any arguments don't make claims.

In regards to merit with faith and beliefs, to me that's relative.  While this is an extreme example, if someone finds happiness, contentment and peace of mind by standing in oatmeal and hitting themselves in the face with a ruler on a daily basis....   I'd say.  "Whatever floats your boat man."

Sure I might have reservations on their level of sanity, and probably question why in the world someone would do that....   but if that really brings peace of mind, happiness and contentment to someone, what does that say about me if I tell this person, "Knock it off.  Don't do that, that's wrong and crazy.  Don't do that to be happy, do what I do". 

That wreaks of pride, and me thinking I know what's better for this person than they do.

If someone wants to believe in something stupid than that's their business. As soon as they bring those beliefs out into the world though, it becomes everybody's business. A person has a right to have their ability to believe what they want respected, but beliefs should never be respected without first earning it. If a belief is crazy, it should be treated as crazy. If you cannot provide evidence of your beliefs, that is what is known as delusion and your beliefs should be treated accordingly. You are still well within your right to believe such things, however. It is the same as with people who believe that the Nazis had a good idea about racial purity, they are allowed to have those beliefs. But the instant they start talking about it in public we smack them over the head and tell them to go and sit in the corner while the adults talk.

It's not about pride, or knowing what's best for someone else. It's about not wanting to live a world that's been polluted and fouled by this level of stupidity.
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Offline Positiveaob

Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2010, 02:38:05 PM »
With regards to the whole ad populum "billions of people can't be wrong" argument.  Billions once believed the earth was flat.  Billions once believed the sun revolved around the earth.  Billions once believed in pantheism (just with different subsets of gods).  And the day will come when people will say "billions once believed in an invisible overlord in the sky".

And most of us here were brought up xtian.  It wasn't some bad experience or trouble that caused us to abandon these myths, it was simply applying common sense and reason.

And please let me know how you think the first commandment fits in with your theory.  If such a god figure wanted to stay hidden from his creation and let them find him through "faith", why would he carve it directly in to stone as a commandment that he was their one and only god.  Doesnt sound to me like he wanted to stay hidden.
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Offline wright

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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2010, 03:35:38 PM »


Basically, we are telemarketers repeatedly phoning the Gods about supper time to ask whether They've had time to think over our limited time offer or the free gift.  Most of the time the God we dialed just slams down the phone.

Well, it's logical.


Historicity, that is wonderful! It's going in my little file of one-liners (well, it's more than one line, but it's short and sweet enough to qualify). +1 for you!

Welcome to the forum, Hguols.

You said:
Quote
Good post.  ....and you're right.  There's blatant documented evidence in the bible of first hand and undeniable miracles.  If you believe all that, then try to weigh that in regards to life today....   there are a few inconsistencies.

...but that's expected with documentation that's literally thousands of years old.

A few? Well, define "few", then. Here's a start...

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html

From the linked page:
Quote
Please keep in mind that by "inconsistencies" I do not necessarily mean "contradictions." Even though accepted and common definitions of the two terms often make them synonymous, I make a subtle distinction which is reflected in at least some of the accepted definitions. What I have in mind is that an inconsistency involves a lack of harmonious uniformity, regularity, steady continuity, or agreement among the verses cited. Thus, whereas a contradiction is necessarily an inconsistency, an inconsistency is not necessarily a contradiction. But certainly some of the listed biblical inconsistencies could be taken as biblical contradictions.

So far you have not done a good job of defending your assertions, which is what is expected here. There's a dearth of thoughtful theists willing to honestly engage nonbelievers in this forum, so I hope you prove to be one of them.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2010, 04:34:29 PM »
To many of those who already believe, it would be undeniable proof.  That proof would essentially destroy their faith.

On a separate note, in regards to this little bit of nonsense. How would this destroy their faith? Again, the god mentioned in the bible undeniably exists within the contents of the narrative. He makes his presence obvious through his actions. The entire point of the plagues in egypt was to show the egyptians how awesome he was. He turned rivers to blood and killed the firstborn children of an entire nation to demonstrate the size of his 'godhood'. It didn't stop his followers from having faith in him. They still believed, they still had faith in their god even though they supposedly had undeniable evidence of his existence.

Christians constantly claim to have evidence to back up their faith. That's the entire purpose of apologetics, not to mention hundreds of books put out in the last decade or so aimed towards showing evidence that the bible is real. The evidence is all bullshit, of course, but they think that it's real. Again, at no point in the bible does it use faith in the sense of believing without evidence, because in the bible they have enormous amounts of evidence to show he exists. Evidence which is completely lacking in reality. Faith in the bible is about trusting gods word and that god is always correct and knows what is best. It is about believing in gods sovereignty.

Once again, I don't really know why God wants faith.....   but I have faith that He does.

So you don't know anything. Including what god means by faith. Or apparently what's written in the bible. You just have faith that you know something, which by your definition of faith means that you don't know anything and know that you don't know anything. Yet somehow still think that you know something.......

I think a piece of my brain just died.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2010, 06:02:28 PM »
Glad to see you've joined up to discuss your thoughts with us, Hguols! +1 for signing up. When you have enough posts you can create your own topic, and when that time comes, perhaps you can write us a little introduction for yourself, and perhaps your testimony (we have a section for each). Happy posting!

Offline Hguols

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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2010, 07:22:48 PM »
Welcome
Hello.  I'm the actual author to the letter.  Nice to meet you all.

What would happen if I did not have faith?  ....I gotta say.  That's the best question asked from what I've seen thus far.

I would have a different outlook on life if I didn't have faith.  Having been without it before, I got to say I prefer this concept in my life.
Why?

Because the prospect of eternal life, a divine entity that loves each individual person, and the other rewards of spirituality in general...   that's insentive enough. 

There's no doubt that people here doubt that....   do you think its possible that people have seen glimpses of this?  (without being considered downright delusional)

A simple yes or no will suffice. 

To many of those who already believe, it would be undeniable proof.  That proof would essentially destroy their faith.

On a separate note, in regards to this little bit of nonsense. How would this destroy their faith? Again, the god mentioned in the bible undeniably exists within the contents of the narrative. He makes his presence obvious through his actions. The entire point of the plagues in egypt was to show the egyptians how awesome he was. He turned rivers to blood and killed the firstborn children of an entire nation to demonstrate the size of his 'godhood'. It didn't stop his followers from having faith in him. They still believed, they still had faith in their god even though they supposedly had undeniable evidence of his existence.

Christians constantly claim to have evidence to back up their faith. That's the entire purpose of apologetics, not to mention hundreds of books put out in the last decade or so aimed towards showing evidence that the bible is real. The evidence is all bullshit, of course, but they think that it's real. Again, at no point in the bible does it use faith in the sense of believing without evidence, because in the bible they have enormous amounts of evidence to show he exists. Evidence which is completely lacking in reality. Faith in the bible is about trusting gods word and that god is always correct and knows what is best. It is about believing in gods sovereignty.

Once again, I don't really know why God wants faith.....   but I have faith that He does.

So you don't know anything. Including what god means by faith. Or apparently what's written in the bible. You just have faith that you know something, which by your definition of faith means that you don't know anything and know that you don't know anything. Yet somehow still think that you know something.......

I think a piece of my brain just died.


It makes me giggle....  my original post has to do with faith (in God) and the concept of faith in general.  You're going on a mostly random flail about the Christian bible which, other than what I've responded too from other people, haven't discussed and don't really intend on discussing.  To me, it's like comparing apples and fire hydrants. 

Perhaps a by-product of your partially dead brain you mentioned?

I'll be glad to discuss points with you when you decide to get just a little more on topic. 

So far you have not done a good job of defending your assertions, which is what is expected here. There's a dearth of thoughtful theists willing to honestly engage nonbelievers in this forum, so I hope you prove to be one of them.

Maybe in the "testimony" post I'll elaborate a little more as to why I'm here.
I'm actually not interested in apologetics, and certainly don't consider myself a theist.  I'm a layman by all means.  I'm not too interested in knock down - drag out debates either.

I'm actually not here for your amusement.  (ironically, my faith in God isn't for his amusement - anyone squirming yet?)

If anything, I'm here to be myself, maybe learn and laugh at a thing or two.  ....and I'm curious.

Generally speaking, some of you guys are friendly enough....  to the newcomer.  Those of you who make your points intelligently, I'll most likely learn from and follow around. 

A few of you have much to fine tune on your approach to not come across as a troll, a heckler or full of butthurt at the prospect of someone who "hasn't seen the light" so to speak. 
These I'll laugh at....   and then ignore when it turns to bullying and gets awkward.....

Most of us here are former theists.  We used to believe, we used to have faith.  Then we thought about it, and realized it made no sense whatsoever.

Generally, it's not going to go over well if you're going to try to tell us to "open our minds", because we DID open our minds.  We opened our minds to the possibiliy that theism is wrong and that maybe atheism is correct.  Once we did that and examined both sides of the issue, we found that atheism made far more sense.

Good points.  I liked reading this right here.

First of all, I hope no one here is under the impression I'm here to convert the lot of you.  You can believe what you want (and here's the real hum-dinger) I won't call you stupid or minimize your own beliefs and concepts (or lack of). 

(For the sake of empathy, the same courtesy would be much appreciated on my behalf.  Though true empathy could be had if one of you decided to tread in a spirituality forum.)
                           
I was simply curious if you've actually tried being open-minded to spirituality before. 
Looks like I got my answer.

A few questions from the newb....

Do you want everyone in the world to realize there is no God?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing not.... or a few of you would be much more appealing to me.  (Since about anyone knows you can catch more flies with honey than manure so to speak.)

If not, I mean.  What do you do here? 
Debate each other? 

No disrespect intended.  I'm just curious.

Welcome to the fold, Hguols. Thanks for joining.

Seriously.  How many people do you really know claim to know God exists?  I don't know any personally. 
Stick around here for a while and you'll see a plenty. You'll also see plenty of christians who tell the atheists here that we know god exists, too, but that we're refusing to accept it so that we can live our lives full 'o' sin.

Hope you enjoy the forum.

Thanks for the welcome.  I'm really enjoying.....   some of this....

With regards to the whole ad populum "billions of people can't be wrong" argument.  Billions once believed the earth was flat.  Billions once believed the sun revolved around the earth.  Billions once believed in pantheism (just with different subsets of gods).  And the day will come when people will say "billions once believed in an invisible overlord in the sky".

And most of us here were brought up xtian.  It wasn't some bad experience or trouble that caused us to abandon these myths, it was simply applying common sense and reason.

And please let me know how you think the first commandment fits in with your theory.  If such a god figure wanted to stay hidden from his creation and let them find him through "faith", why would he carve it directly in to stone as a commandment that he was their one and only god.  Doesnt sound to me like he wanted to stay hidden.

This is an excellent post too.  Thank you.

Once again, I'm confused as to why Biblical "evidence" is being used as the "see this isn't true" when it comes to God.  I'm assuming you're assuming that because I'm a spiritual person, that I believe every word in the Bible?

Work with me a little please.  How about we don’t assume this, mmmmmm?

I'm willing to accept that while God wanted to be seen in the past, He doesn't want to be seen now.  I have no doctrine to base that on....   that's my own personal faith based conclusion.

If someone here doesn't want to believe the same thing, fine.  If anyone wants to insult my intelligence or level of sanity over it....   why?

As for the billions of people wrong, I see that point as well.  Basically, those things were proven to be different than they were.  ....and based on the "one day" delivery of the existence of God proven false....   I'm guessing then you have no proof God doesn't exist.

Why don't you have this proof?

 
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 07:26:05 PM by Hguols »


“The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.” ~ Carl Sagan

Offline rev45

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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2010, 07:51:27 PM »
Just a couple of things in your post that stuck out to me.
I'm willing to accept that while God wanted to be seen in the past, He doesn't want to be seen now.  I have no doctrine to base that on....   that's my own personal faith based conclusion.
If I were to say there is an invisible dragon circling Jupiter but I have nothing to base that assertion on but my own personal feelings, I would bet that not many would be willing to believe me.  While I'm entitled to my view on the dragon, not being able to provide any empirical evidence of it doesn't help answer any questions about the dragon.  I hope you see that without any evidence of the god you believe in, I have no reason to think that he exists.

Quote
As for the billions of people wrong, I see that point as well.  Basically, those things were proven to be different than they were.  ....and based on the "one day" delivery of the existence of God proven false....   I'm guessing then you have no proof God doesn't exist.

Why don't you have this proof?
The burden of proof doesn't lie on those that don't believe in a god, its up to those that are asserting that there is one to bring out the convincing proof.  Its the same as trying to prove leprechauns, unicorns, fairies, or any other mythical creature don't exists.  Or try to prove that Vishnu, Allah, Zoroaster, Ra, Baal, Kuni-toko-tachi or any of the thousands of gods that have been invented through the ages don't exists.
Here read a book.  It's free.
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Offline Hguols

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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2010, 08:10:36 PM »
Just a couple of things in your post that stuck out to me.
I'm willing to accept that while God wanted to be seen in the past, He doesn't want to be seen now.  I have no doctrine to base that on....   that's my own personal faith based conclusion.
If I were to say there is an invisible dragon circling Jupiter but I have nothing to base that assertion on but my own personal feelings, I would bet that not many would be willing to believe me.  While I'm entitled to my view on the dragon, not being able to provide any empirical evidence of it doesn't help answer any questions about the dragon.  I hope you see that without any evidence of the god you believe in, I have no reason to think that he exists.

My beliefs aren't contrary or based on popular belief.  I've had my own past of going through the motions with mommy and daddy taking me to church as a tot....   I had my "doubting period", but inventoried everything about it and found it more beneficial and accurate to believe.  I find it hard to believe I’m truly unique on this either...   

....but I don't really know or understand everything in the universe and that's where faith comes in.  It makes it a little easier to process.

I'm not here to convince you or prove you of God.  I'm not even the slightest bit interested in doing that.  I just have my own personal beliefs regarding my "higher power".

The burden of proof doesn't lie on those that don't believe in a god, its up to those that are asserting that there is one to bring out the convincing proof.  Its the same as trying to prove leprechauns, unicorns, fairies, or any other mythical creature don't exists.  Or try to prove that Vishnu, Allah, Zoroaster, Ra, Baal, Kuni-toko-tachi or any of the thousands of gods that have been invented through the ages don't exists.

Point taken.  Just like it's not my job to prove God to you, it's not your job to prove the lack of God to me. 

How do you prove it to yourself?  What do you base your belief that God isn't there on?
I hope it's not just because of inconsistencies in the Bible.  That's only a portion of spirituality and religion in general.

I work off a base of faith, where I can believe without proving.  Obviously, you do the same thing....   unless you know every iota of the universe and are positive without a doubt.

You HAVE to believe without proof, because you don't know either. 
You have faith there is no God.

Makes sense to me...  and I'd say it's absolutely logical.

....but other than the obvious, what's really different between us? 
Doesn't look like I'm any more “delusional” or caught up in a "security blanket" (some of the terms I’ve heard) without you guys being in a different but very similar boat.

 
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 08:12:16 PM by Hguols »


“The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.” ~ Carl Sagan

Offline Asmoday

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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2010, 08:27:53 PM »
I'm guessing then you have no proof God doesn't exist.

Why don't you have this proof?
We don't have proof God does not exist for the same reason that you don't have proof that this fellow here is not standing right behind you right now.

Of course, when you turn around you won't see him, but he is there. You can't touch him, can't see him, can't smell him, can't hear him, can't detect him in any way, but he is there. Just one step behind you. All the time. Watching you. Don't you feel his eyes on your back right now?

And he really does not like you. Not one bit. In fact, he even hates you with a passion.

But don't worry. I can tell you exactly what you have to do so he does not hate you anymore. Well...or let's just say what to do so he hates you a little bit less.


Now, will you believe in what I say till someone shows you proof that an undetectable scary thing is not right behind you all the time or would you ask me for proof that what I say is true before you start believing what I say about it?

To make a long story short: You can't prove a negative. Instead the people believing in something have to present evidence for why their belief should be considered to be more than just a delusion.


Quote
You have faith there is no God.
No, we don't.

Just because you need faith to believe in your god does not mean we need faith to not believe in your god.

That we atheists have no proof that God does not exist and that believers have no proof that God does exist may sound very similar but it does not mean that both atheists and theists would need faith to hold their view.

A little experiment:
Think of something you do not believe in. The Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Raeliens, tooth faeries, Quetzalcoatl, Zeus or Thor; doesn't matter what or who it is.
Got one? Good.
Now, do you have / need faith that he/she/it does not exist? Does not believing in the Easter bunny take faith like believing in God for example?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 08:35:45 PM by Asmoday »
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Offline wright

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Re: Why I believe God won't heal amputees..... [2449]
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2010, 08:30:20 PM »
I'm glad you've decided to give this forum a try, Hguols.  ;D I find it daunting enough at times, and I'm an atheist; there are many aggressive and experienced debaters here.

Hguols:
Quote
Because the prospect of eternal life, a divine entity that loves each individual person, and the other rewards of spirituality in general...   that's insentive enough.

There's no doubt that people here doubt that....   do you think its possible that people have seen glimpses of this?  (without being considered downright delusional)

A simple yes or no will suffice.

Not sure what you mean by the bolded part, so forgive me not answering just a yes or no. Do you mean that eternal life, etc. is real and that even nonbelievers know this at some level? If so, then I would say no: those desires stem from the fear of death, lonlieness and so on. While the fear behind them is certainly real, the rest is wish-fulfillment.

Quote
Maybe in the "testimony" post I'll elaborate a little more as to why I'm here.

I look forward to that.

Quote
A few of you have much to fine tune on your approach to not come across as a troll, a heckler or full of butthurt at the prospect of someone who "hasn't seen the light" so to speak.
These I'll laugh at....   and then ignore when it turns to bullying and gets awkward.....

At times theist newcomers are handled ungently. Many of them fail to understand it's their ideas and assertions that are being attacked, not them. Also, the more fundamentalist and literalist their beliefs, the thinner-skinned they seem to be; some browsing of the archives here will show you professed Christians whose behavior does their religion no credit.

Having said that, it's true many of the atheist regulars here (including me) often make the assumption that new posters who make statements like...

Quote
To many of those who already believe, it would be undeniable proof.  That proof would essentially destroy their faith.

...are also fundamentalists and apologists, because we have seen almost literally those same words from so many fundies. FWIW, I apologize for that assumption.

Quote
A few questions from the newb....

Do you want everyone in the world to realize there is no God?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing not.... or a few of you would be much more appealing to me.  (Since about anyone knows you can catch more flies with honey than manure so to speak.)

If not, I mean.  What do you do here?
Debate each other?

No disrespect intended.  I'm just curious.

Those are reasonable questions. And offense is certainly not taken.

For myself, I'd be astounded if belief in some / any form of god vanished within even the next few hundred years. It would be emotionally satisfying, I'll admit  ;) I welcome the erosion of religious belief (particularly the fundamentalist, monotheist variety), because it has caused so much grief in the world.

What do we do here? We're a community: we support each other, debate each other at times, bring up topics that interest us and we hope will also interest others, debate outsiders who disagree, hopefully learn from it all.

Quote
You have faith there is no God.

Makes sense to me...  and I'd say it's absolutely logical.

Not faith, Hguons. Just a complete lack (so far) of evidence for god. You seem to understand the difference between faith and evidence, so I'm puzzled why you don't get this.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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