Author Topic: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"  (Read 16130 times)

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Offline Operator_011

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #58 on: December 11, 2010, 02:38:45 PM »
rcdrury is now banned for trolling.


Eleven.
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Offline Operator_A25

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #59 on: December 11, 2010, 02:42:32 PM »
Well done, Eleven. Apparently, rcdrury had no purpose here other than being a jerk, so I see no reason to humor that kind of nonsense.
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Offline Operator_011

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #60 on: December 11, 2010, 02:45:06 PM »
Quite. And I tried to be nice[1], too.
 1. In context of how mean I am usually
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #61 on: December 11, 2010, 02:46:03 PM »
I know he's banned now, but just to get in one last word...


To the best of my knowledge, I called no one here a "pea-brain." 


You said:

Quote
I had no intention of engaging in a debate with anyone but the pea-brain who produced the subject video; and my intent, as stated in my original post, is to limit that debate to the complete lack of reasoning in his argument, not the existence of God.

The video was disingenuous and intellectually dishonest, and anyone arguing on behalf of its creator is either equally dishonest or as devoid of critical thinking skills as the creator appears to be.


So you're calling the rest of us pea-brains by proxy, at the very least.


Quote
Other than minimally responding to the mostly hostile posts directed at me, I'm not really even participating.  While I have no intention of offending or making myself unwelcome, I have no particular interest in being welcomed here.

How very christ-like of you.   &)
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #62 on: December 11, 2010, 02:49:12 PM »
The references in the video were clearly to medical miracles, and it appeared to be strongly implied that such miracles were the basis for the doctors' belief in miracles.  Perhaps my assumption was a stretch, but I don't think so.  Anyway, you now hopefully understand where I was coming from.

A doctor who believes in miracles is one that FIRST believes in God.  A doctor who does not believe in miracles is one that FIRST doesn't believe in God.  If it were the other way around, then that would mean they all STARTED as atheists and converted to Christianity after they saw those things take place.  That's not what happens at all.  So, its not that they "see" things they consider unexplainable and THEN believe in miracles.  They believe in them first, then think they "see" them after. 

ALL doctors will see things that they can not medically explain in their lifetime.  Only the smart ones will say "I don't know why that happened, but I also don't know everything".   The dimwits will say "It's a miracle!" 

Also, you do understand that the whole miracle thing goes both ways right?  There are many situations (I would venture to say an equal amount) where a patient goes from perfectly healthy to "miraculously" dead.  Would you venture a guess as to whether or not the Christan doctors call those things miracles?  Are those acts of God as well?  I wonder if you ask 1000 doctors if they have ever seen something like that, would they attribute it to their loving God?    I doubt it.  Why?  Because those doctors who believe in God think God is all good, all loving, and would never attribute that stuff to Him. 

Long story short... a Christian doctor would probably call a person who spontaneously recovered from cancer a "miracle patient".  But that same doctor would probably just shrug his shoulders in bewilderment over a person who spontaneously dies from a coughing fit.  I'm the guy who shrugs his shoulders at both.  That's a lot more honest, don't you think? 

When I first started out in my career, I used to think doctors were the smartest of the smart.  But if there is one thing that I have learned over 11 years of practicing physical therapy, it's that most doctors don't know shit either.  They are just really good at acting like they do. 

BTW, I don't believe in miracles.  And I've seen several things I can't explain... both positive and negative.  Why don't you ask those 3 out of 4 doctors if they've ever seen things that made them question God's great wisdom?  I bet it's over 95%.  The smart ones will actually take those lessons to heart.  The dimwits won't. 

Edit.  CRAP the banhammer got him first. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Operator_011

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #63 on: December 11, 2010, 02:56:13 PM »
Edit.  CRAP the banhammer got him first.
Sorry about that. But it's ok, guests can still view the Mailbag.
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Offline Agamemnon

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #64 on: December 11, 2010, 02:57:58 PM »
I'm not here to preach, and I'm not here to debate something which should not be debated.  I know what I know, and no amount of "evidence" will move someone who does not wish to be moved.

You're just brimming with "intellectually honesty," here. Impressive critical thinking skills, you've got.



So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence.  --Bertrand Russell

Offline Alzael

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #65 on: December 11, 2010, 03:01:05 PM »
What I always find fascinating about the mentality behind people like him is that he just finished claiming that he's only here to discuss the video and the initial post. Yet he didn't respond to anyone who made comments about or criticized said post. Even when I repeatedly called his attention to it he refused to. Then continued to assert that it was all that he wanted to discuss. There's some very interesting thought-flows that occur in the minds of people like him. It's a pity he didn't last that long. It would have made an interesting study.
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Offline Agamemnon

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #66 on: December 11, 2010, 03:08:48 PM »
Take heart, Alzael: there's plenty more where he came from. And if we're lucky he'll create a sock account and we can start the whole thing over again!
So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence.  --Bertrand Russell

Offline Alzael

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2010, 03:49:22 PM »
Take heart, Alzael: there's plenty more where he came from. And if we're lucky he'll create a sock account and we can start the whole thing over again!

Funny, I had been thinking the same thing.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
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Offline Operator_020

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2010, 05:28:54 PM »
It's a pity he didn't last that long. It would have made an interesting study.

I am in complete agreement.
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Offline Jim

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Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #69 on: December 11, 2010, 05:45:35 PM »
We could have put him, Daw, and Mabus together in a locked room to see what would happen.  Shucks.
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Offline Historicity

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #70 on: December 11, 2010, 10:20:42 PM »
I apologize for not noticing this thread earlier.  But there is nothing on TV on Saturday nights.

Here is something from RCDrury that you all seem to have skipped:
Quote
From a scientific perspective, there is no such thing as "nonsense."  By definition, science holds that there is no such thing as a probability of either zero or one.  Nothing is to be considered either absolute or impossible.  You have clearly demonstrated your total lack of scientific understanding. 
A digression before I go to the point:  Don't you just love that little weasel word phrase "By definition"?  It usually doesn't mean anything.

But I'm sure this crowd is familiar with Sir Karl Popper's principle of Falsifiability?  One part of that is the idea that theories are not proved true, but that all the competing theories have been proven false.   

Therefore in science there is indeed such as thing as a probability of 0. 

Karl Popper also gave a proposition, there are humans who are not immortal.  It has a probability of 1 since there are humans who have already died.

Conclusion:  Whatever RCBrady ever learned about the scientific method, all he knows of it now is woo.


As for the 3 out of 4 doctors who smoke Chesterfields for mellow, soothing tobacco experience, I have to fault Marshall Brain for a lack of due diligence.  And I thank Emily for pointing me to the text.

MB's source was an article in www.wnd.com  aka World Net Daily, aka World Nut Daily.  This is a site run by Joseph Farah,  a former editor of 2 newspapers that went bankrupt.  He claims his site is the leading conservative site.  He is a co-author of one of Rush Limbaugh's books.  He says the 2 most important people in the history of conservatism are simply Ronald Reagan and Rush Limbaugh.  (Buckley?  Rand?)   He is a Birther.  Not has been.  He comes back to it again and again.  He accused people of trying to hijack the Tea Party movement and finished the article by plugging his book, The Tea Party Manifesto.  Chuck Norris is a columnist there.

When I read the article it said:

Quote
... 74% of doctors believe miracles have occurred in the past, and 73% believe they can occur today.
...
Two-thirds encourage their patients to pray. Of those physicians, 5% did so for God to answer their prayers, 32% for psychological benefits and 63% for both reasons.
...
37% physicians believe the Bible's miracle stories are literally true, while 50% believe they are metaphorically true.
Wait a minute.  Is it 74% or 37%? 

Or is it 67%?   Note that 5% of those just say that it bucks up the patient with positive thinking.  68% of those say it works practical magick[1].  Let's do some math,

2/3 * 0.67 = 0.45.  That would mean 45% believe in the miracle of prayer.  If 74% believe in "miracles" then how did the survey define the word?

Remember, that on the face of it we just have a journalist's popular retelling.  Or is there another possibility?  Could this be yet another example of the argumentim ex ano[2]???

World Nut Daily cites 2 sources:  A Jewish seminary's institute and HCD Research.

You can look at the seminary's site to search for "statistical survey":
http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/jtsa?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=statistical+survey&btnG=Search

There is no survey of doctors.  The only statistical survey they have is "Gender Variation in the Careers of Conservative Rabbis: A Survey".

You can't search HCD Research.  You have to become a paying client.  They do marketing research such as:
Quote
Research Methodologies
    * NetClassRX™ 
    * HCD AdverTest™ 
    * Banner Ad Testing
    * HCD Web Optimizer™
    * Viral Video Testing
    * Online Tip-In Testing
    * HCD Eye-Tracking Metrics
    * HCD AdverTrak™
So are these fake stats?  There is no point in researching those sources because they aren't sources.  How about asking the Delphic Oracle?  But the last one was in 395 CE.  How about Google?

There is a University of Chicago survey of 2,000 doctors in 2005.
http://www.medpagetoday.com/PublicHealthPolicy/PracticeManagement/1237
http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/050714/doctorsfaith--.shtml

But that was just on religious affiliation.  The only supernatural question was on life after death. 
Quote
76% of the respondents said they believed in God, compared with 83% of the U.S. population.
...
59% said they believed in life after death.

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070411/survey-most-doctors-believe-religion-spirituality-have-positive-effects-on-illness/
The Christian Post (Apr. 11 2007) reports it as:
Quote
From a random sample of 2,000 doctors around the United States, the University of Chicago also found that 2 out of every 5 respondents felt that religion and spirituality (R/S) can help prevent bad outcomes such as heart attacks, infections and even death. The results comes one year after another study had disputed the positive effect of therapeutic prayer.
...
Last year, a $2.4-million study conducted by the Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School and other scientists found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery and that patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.
Well, at least those Christians believe that bearing true witness is a virtue.  So 40% did not claim big events such that the world could wonder at can occur but only a little oomph on the "outcomes".

FYI, "miracle" is Latin "miraculum" from "mirari" meaning to look at, to wonder at.  So, by definition[3], a miracle is some big event the world could wonder at.

There is a survey of 2,000 doctors with 1,144 respondents: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/health/17faith.html which article links to the Archives of Internal Medicine:

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/7/649

Now, let's find out about those 3 out of 4 doctors that RCBrady thinks have seen amputations regrow from prayer.  "R/S" here means "religion and spirituality".
Quote
Results  The response rate was 63%. Most physicians (56%) believed that R/S had much or very much influence on health, but few (6%) believed that R/S often changed "hard" medical outcomes.


Whoops!  Only 6% believe in hard outcomes.

So therefore 94% of doctors believe that God Won't Heal Amputees.
 1. May I be forgiven here for introducing a term from the occult.
 2. 
Nomanusani
Genanianorum
Datanoanis
Accanumanos
Ablanoanis
Ex takes ablative case.
 3. Note my non-weasely use here
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 11:45:42 PM by Historicity »

Offline Alzael

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #71 on: December 11, 2010, 10:31:09 PM »
Nice research Hist. I actually never noticed that line from our recently banished friend. Maybe when he finishes his sock puppet account and comes back we can question him on it.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

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Offline Positiveaob

Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #72 on: December 11, 2010, 11:11:29 PM »
I think we can go ahead and put the nails in the coffin on this whole "3 out of 4 doctors believe in medical miracles" nonsense.  But if the OP is still lurking here, it was YOU who were using this as an example of "compelling" evidence, regardless of whether you were quoting one of the videos.  I really couldnt care less what the videos state.  I havent even seen any of them.  Unlike you, I don't base my thoughts or beliefs on what a book (or video) written by others tells me to believe.


For the record, I think it's safe to say that ZERO percent of licensed medical doctors believe amputated limbs can grow back.
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Offline Historicity

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #73 on: December 11, 2010, 11:39:09 PM »
Here is some supplemental material on the definition of miracles but removed for length:

Quote
You Sexy Thing
Hot Chocolate

I believe in miracles.
Where you from,
You sexy thing?
I believe in miracles
Since you came along,
You sexy thing.

Miracles right before my eyes.
You sexy thing, you got me hypnotized.

You Make Loving Fun
Fleetwood Mac
...
I never did believe in miracles,
But I got a feeling it's time to try.
I never did believe in the ways of magic,
But I'm beginning to wonder why.

Do You Believe in Magic?
Lovin' Spoonful

Do you believe in magic in a young girl's heart?
How the music can free her, whenever it starts?
And it's magic, if the music is groovy
It makes you feel happy like an old-time movie.
I'll tell you about the magic, and it'll free your soul
But it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock and roll.

So, "by definition", do you believe in miracles?

My favorite lyrics site is:  Lyrics World

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #74 on: December 12, 2010, 10:25:59 AM »
Historicity:
Quote
World Nut Daily cites 2 sources:  A Jewish seminary's institute and HCD Research.
You must have missed my post #50. I spoke to both these places; they no longer have the original survey data, so Brain's statistic can't be verified.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2010, 10:31:00 AM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline Joshua

Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #75 on: December 16, 2010, 05:32:06 PM »
Question Answered.

1. He's not a genie who serves man's desires. He didn't amputate. Doctors did.

2. Because man is selfish. Man ignores Yah's instructions on caring for the poor.

3. Lawbreakers are - by definition - NOT innocent. We do the same for certain crimes in our society (capital punishment).

4. In the Bible there's Astronomy, Agriculture, Mechanical Engineering, Economics, Advance Time Measurement (which is why one can't understand "days = millennia")...

5. Debt is natural. Ownership of persons, places or things is transferred when people can't pay. But I bet most people never read that while man will KEEP people in slavery, Yah DEMANDS ALL debts be forgiven and slaves freed EVERY JUBILEE YEAR.

6. Because there are evil people in the world who harm good people.

7. There is scientific proof...but if given I suspect one would merely refuse to believe in it.

8. The Holy Spirit was sent to be with us when the Messiah left.

9. It was symbolism for his death. He never told anyone to eat his real flesh or drink his real blood.

10. Mankind is selfish and disobedient
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 05:33:51 PM by Joshua »

Offline Agga

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #76 on: December 16, 2010, 09:13:59 PM »
Question Answered.
But the answers raise some further issues.

Quote
1. He's not a genie who serves man's desires.
Except he says he will.

Quote
He didn't amputate. Doctors did.
Except for when a landmine (or Ninja) does it.

Quote
2. Because man is selfish. Man ignores Yah's instructions on caring for the poor.
Except for all the man that helps other man. And except for the man that listens to Yah's instructions (see bible).

Quote
3. Lawbreakers are - by definition - NOT innocent. We do the same for certain crimes in our society (capital punishment).
Except for those who don't break the law intentionally. And except for the *majority* of societies who do not have capital punishment

Quote
4. In the Bible there's Astronomy, Agriculture, Mechanical Engineering, Economics, Advance Time Measurement (which is why one can't understand "days = millennia")...
Except the bible is full of scientifically proveable errors.

Quote
5. Debt is natural. Ownership of persons, places or things is transferred when people can't pay. But I bet most people never read that while man will KEEP people in slavery, Yah DEMANDS ALL debts be forgiven and slaves freed EVERY JUBILEE YEAR.
Which means that he doesn't demand it ever year that isn't a Jubilee year (free slaves, but only on Jubilee years.. hmmm).

Quote
6. Because there are evil people in the world who harm good people.
And there are good people who harm evil people.

Quote
7. There is scientific proof...but if given I suspect one would merely refuse to believe in it.
Don't let us stop you providing it.

Quote
8. The Holy Spirit was sent to be with us when the Messiah left.
Except there's no evidence of it being there or doing anything. And anythign atributed to it can easily be attributed to any other god or universal energy.

Quote
9. It was symbolism for his death. He never told anyone to eat his real flesh or drink his real blood.
Ouch. The Catholic church (the biggest christian sect) has that all wrong, then. Except, they'll tell you that you're wrong. So who is right?

Quote
10. Mankind is selfish and disobedient
Except it's also incredibly benevolent, too.


:)
I've left WWGHA now, so do everyone else a favour and don't bother replying to my old posts and necromancing my threads.

Offline Positiveaob

Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #77 on: December 16, 2010, 09:24:20 PM »
Joshua:

1.  Amputations don't require a doctor.  And when doctors are involved, it's done to save a life not to be cruel. 

All of which is beside the point.  We're not trying to show that such a god is cruel.  We're showing that he doest exist.  Or at least if he does he's going well out of his way to stay hidden because he only intervenes in ways that have alternative explanations. 

I'm gonna go with doesnt exist.

2. No.  Man doesnt create famines, tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes, etc.

3. Newborn children are "lawbreakers", huh?

4.  There is nothing in the bible demonstrating "science" beyond what one would expect of people living more than 2000 years ago.

5.  Slavery is morally repugnant.  There's no way around this.  It's an example of how the bible reflects the culture of an ancient people and not the word of a "god".

6. Also plenty of "bad" things that happen that have nothing whatsoever to do with "evil people".  A young mother diagnosed with Lou Gehrigs disease, for example.  How would that be related to evil people?

7. Humor us.  Let's hear it.

8.  And you have what evidence of this?

9. No, actually he stated flesh and blood.  You can pretty much explain any nonsensical superstition by calling it "symbolism".

10. I'm disobedient to imaginary beings with imaginary commands, sure.  Don't see how that makes me selfish.

Is this really the best you have?
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Offline Alzael

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #78 on: December 16, 2010, 10:46:05 PM »
Quote
5. Debt is natural. Ownership of persons, places or things is transferred when people can't pay. But I bet most people never read that while man will KEEP people in slavery, Yah DEMANDS ALL debts be forgiven and slaves freed EVERY JUBILEE YEAR.
Which means that he doesn't demand it ever year that isn't a Jubilee year (free slaves, but only on Jubilee years.. hmmm).

That only applies to Jewish slaves. Also if an owner "gave" the slave a wife. She and the children weren't free. Also women who were Jewish were exceptions to this and were never freed, unless you go with a passage in Exodus that contradicts this and says that the Jubilee freeing applied to them as well. Either way the law to free slaves was only meant for Jews.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

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Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Online One Above All

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Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #79 on: December 17, 2010, 02:53:29 AM »
Alright, I got 10 minutes before I have to get ready to school, I'll reply to this

1. He's not a genie who serves man's desires. He didn't amputate. Doctors did.

In the Bible he says he will and some babies are born without limbs, due to the very "intelligent" design of our DNA, which causes "glitches", if you will, causing such mutations.


2. Because man is selfish. Man ignores Yah's instructions on caring for the poor.

Yes you do. Why didn't you sell all your stuff and give to the poor, like the Bible says?

3. Lawbreakers are - by definition - NOT innocent. We do the same for certain crimes in our society (capital punishment).

Girls who are not virgins when they marry and homosexuals , are not "lawbreakers". Same with people who work on the "Sabbath" etc. They are just people who want to use FREE WILL

4. In the Bible there's Astronomy, Agriculture, Mechanical Engineering, Economics, Advance Time Measurement (which is why one can't understand "days = millennia")...

Where is there any of this? And even if there is, why would an all-knowing god not WANT Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of GOOD AND EVIL AND KNOWLEDGE?
PS: Just because the 6 days don't make sense, doesn't mean "that's not really what is there", it means just that - It doesn't make sense
EDIT: Please note that the tree wasn't good or evil, it would merely give Adam and Eve the KNOWLEDGE to distinguish between the two

5. Debt is natural. Ownership of persons, places or things is transferred when people can't pay. But I bet most people never read that while man will KEEP people in slavery, Yah DEMANDS ALL debts be forgiven and slaves freed EVERY JUBILEE YEAR.

Really? Where does it say that?

6. Because there are evil people in the world who harm good people.

And yet your all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful god doesn't do **** to help them... It's weird, right? It's like he's not there[1]

7. There is scientific proof...but if given I suspect one would merely refuse to believe in it.

Put up or shut up

8. The Holy Spirit was sent to be with us when the Messiah left.

Proof

9. It was symbolism for his death. He never told anyone to eat his real flesh or drink his real blood.

Proof

10. Mankind is selfish and disobedient

So mankind can just go around god's power? That's good to know. Now all my atheist buddies will have free entrance into heaven
 1. I expect the usual "free will" argument against this
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Eddy Swirl

Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #80 on: December 17, 2010, 04:08:18 AM »
7. There is scientific proof...but if given I suspect one would merely refuse to believe in it.

Very convincing....



Weak mate. Weak.
You read my sig again, didn't you...

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #81 on: December 17, 2010, 07:03:01 AM »
Quote from: joshua
5. Debt is natural. Ownership of persons, places or things is transferred when people can't pay. But I bet most people never read that while man will KEEP people in slavery, Yah DEMANDS ALL debts be forgiven and slaves freed EVERY JUBILEE YEAR.

So you haven't read the bible. Gotcha.

To be fair: Why don't you mention the other god-sanctioned ways israelites scored free labour?
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline screwtape

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #82 on: December 17, 2010, 08:35:36 AM »
welcome joshua

1. He's not a genie who serves man's desires. He didn't amputate. Doctors did.

That misses the point of the question.

There is a certian type of xian who attempts to justify his or her god beliefs by claiming that people are miraculously healed of various afflictions by divine intervention.  The afflictions may include cancer, diabetes, coma, heart conditions, tooth decay, halitosis, spastic colon, etc.  We frequently hear anecdotes about how some church group prayed for some guy and the next day he was completely healed. 

But there are several problems with this kind of reasoning.  First, data shows these types of afflictions sometimes "clear up" without any kind of prayers.  It seems to be a natural response.  Second, people of all religions make the same claims.  And last, there is a whole class of ailments that are never, ever cured by prayer or naturally. 

People never regrow lost limbs.  Lost eyes never regrow in the empty sockets.  Retarded people never gain normal mental capacity. Alzheimers and Dementia sufferers never recover.  Old people never rejuvenate. 

This has clear implications about a god that supposedly heals people.  It leaves you only a few conclusions about such a god.  You have not addressed that.


4. In the Bible there's Astronomy, Agriculture, Mechanical Engineering, Economics, Advance Time Measurement (which is why one can't understand "days = millennia")...

I am a mechanical engineer.  Please point out where the bible has mechanical engineering.  I must have missed it.

As for "advance time measurement", please explain how it is that and not hyperbole.  I am curious how you know it is "advance time measurement", what the conversion is and how it is useful.

5. Debt is natural. Ownership of persons, places or things is transferred when people can't pay.

So owning people is okay with you?  That would be acceptable to you if the laws were changed to permit slavery in exchange for debt relief?


7. There is scientific proof...but if given I suspect one would merely refuse to believe in it.

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Offline Agga

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #83 on: December 17, 2010, 09:26:56 AM »
That only applies to Jewish slaves. Also if an owner "gave" the slave a wife. She and the children weren't free. Also women who were Jewish were exceptions to this and were never freed, unless you go with a passage in Exodus that contradicts this and says that the Jubilee freeing applied to them as well. Either way the law to free slaves was only meant for Jews.
Ecellent. So not only was it only on the Jubilee years that slaves were freed, it was only for Jewish slaves.

Gee. What a nice god. ;)
I've left WWGHA now, so do everyone else a favour and don't bother replying to my old posts and necromancing my threads.

Offline Joshua

Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #84 on: December 24, 2010, 06:51:27 PM »
I completely forgot that I responded to this thread (I've been on others)!!! And for everyone who thought I was ignoring, forgive me.

Ok...


welcome joshua

1. He's not a genie who serves man's desires. He didn't amputate. Doctors did.

That misses the point of the question.

There is a certian type of xian who attempts to justify his or her god beliefs by claiming that people are miraculously healed of various afflictions by divine intervention.  The afflictions may include cancer, diabetes, coma, heart conditions, tooth decay, halitosis, spastic colon, etc.  We frequently hear anecdotes about how some church group prayed for some guy and the next day he was completely healed. 

But there are several problems with this kind of reasoning.  First, data shows these types of afflictions sometimes "clear up" without any kind of prayers.  It seems to be a natural response.  Second, people of all religions make the same claims.  And last, there is a whole class of ailments that are never, ever cured by prayer or naturally. 

People never regrow lost limbs.  Lost eyes never regrow in the empty sockets.  Retarded people never gain normal mental capacity. Alzheimers and Dementia sufferers never recover.  Old people never rejuvenate. 

This has clear implications about a god that supposedly heals people.  It leaves you only a few conclusions about such a god.  You have not addressed that.

Fare enough. But my point in being so blunt ("...not a genie..blah, blah") is to bring to the forefront a (false) assumption that both camps use to compete against each other; the same false assumption that your camp (merely said for descriptive purposes) attempts to prove a non-existance, while the other camp (in delusion) also attempts to prove existence...when it has ALWAYS been more complicated/responsible than that. From the beginning there were always rules to follow with this deity to even gain access to such gifts, and not everyone gains the same gifts (and I hate using the word "gift" because in our society such a word brings to mind "magic").

No atheist can EVER pray, even an endourance prayer - for a selfish motive no less - just to prove or disprove this point (hence my characterization of a genie being summoned from a lamp)...At the same time, no xian can associate every natural healing phenomena to this deity, while only accepting the "feel good" parts of the faith and COMPLETELY ignoromg the rules that were established to allow for such healing to be possible.

4. In the Bible there's Astronomy, Agriculture, Mechanical Engineering, Economics, Advance Time Measurement (which is why one can't understand "days = millennia")...

I am a mechanical engineer.  Please point out where the bible has mechanical engineering.  I must have missed it.

You should read the construction of the temple of Solomon. Solomon married an egyptian woman to gain access to the knowledge of constructing sand-hydrolic machines (of pyramid history). This contruction went into the development of the Temple, particularly to hide the ark in case of envasion (2 Chronicles 3:17 also talks about it: Boaz & Jachin = Base Fulcrum).

As for "advance time measurement", please explain how it is that and not hyperbole.  I am curious how you know it is "advance time measurement", what the conversion is and how it is useful.

Several times in scripture it's quoted that a day is not a day but like thousands of years. The passage of time is relative for each person experiencing it...and yet most (on both sides) assume (whether to prove or disprove) that creation occured in 6 of our "human" days. They were truly 6 days, but not "days" from human perspective.

Psalms 90:4 "For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night."

2 Peter 3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." (25) "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble." (26) After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed." (27) He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

...Now is this passage speaking about days, weeks, or years? The answer is "all three at once".

There are several more but I'm trying to save space.


5. Debt is natural. Ownership of persons, places or things is transferred when people can't pay.

So owning people is okay with you?  That would be acceptable to you if the laws were changed to permit slavery in exchange for debt relief?

Well to be fair, we all believe in the concept of owning people, right? Here's what I mean: if you take out a bank loan, car note or pay income taxes you believe in people owning a portion of you (at least for a time)...and you agree to work hard for them until you're freed from that bond...but are you every free from it? Most will have to answer "no". That is slavery. This is why I said "it's natural to be in debt (owned when one can't pay) but while man will keep people in slavery indefinitely, Yah commands to set people free after a certain time (jubilee years, specifically)".

1 Peter 2:9 "But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light"

Israel was always meant to minister to the world as the priest nation of the nations. Jubilee years were NEVER just for israel...but Israel must first learn what they mean before they can minister to the rest of us.

7. There is scientific proof...but if given I suspect one would merely refuse to believe in it.

Try us.

(a) 1 John 5:8 "the Spirit, the water and the blood; these three are in agreement. (9) If we receive the witness of men, the witness of Yah is greater: for this is the witness of Yah which he hath testified of his Son."

Yahshua Perfectly fulfilled the feast, on the exact day of the feast, and using the exact items as was in the feast (Leviticus 16:15 "Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that [is] for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle [blood] upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:")

Please go to youtube and watch the rest of the parts from the youtube video series I provided above. There are 11 parts altogether so I didn't want to crowd this forum with them. Please watch to the end, paying specific attention to the proof of the miracle of the earthquake crack, and where the blood was found (upon modern excavation) during Yahshua's crucifixion and let me know what you think.

(b) Mark 15:33  "At the sixth hour darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour"

In Jerusalem, there was a solar eclipse for 3 hours upon the death of Yahshua on the execution stake. Please research the April 14, 28CE solar eclipse that lasted 3 hours in Jerusalem from noon to 3pm. Again this was the exact day of Passover (when the lamb was to be slaughtered).

(c) Revelation 12:1 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"

On September 11th 3 BCE, there was a one-of-a-kind (not to be repeated) astronomical sign Constellation Bethulah (virgo) upon the setting sun with the moon under the Constellation's feet that announce the birth of the Messiah. Jupiter and Regulus were also in conjunction in Ariel (Leo). Please research astronomical records that shows this specific event. 15 days later on Tishri 15 (Sept 26th, 3BCE) Yahshua was born exactly on the "Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot)".

John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt (sukka = tabernacled) among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 07:20:00 PM by Joshua »

Offline screwtape

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #85 on: December 24, 2010, 10:06:58 PM »
I completely forgot that I responded to this thread (I've been on others)!!! And for everyone who thought I was ignoring, forgive me.

Thank you for replying.  I forgive your trespass. 

Fare enough. But my point in being so blunt ("...not a genie..blah, blah") is to bring to the forefront a (false) assumption that both camps use to compete against each other; the same false assumption that your camp (merely said for descriptive purposes) attempts to prove a non-existance, while the other camp (in delusion) also attempts to prove existence...when it has ALWAYS been more complicated/responsible than that.

But that was my point.  This question is not a silver bullet designed to disprove all concepts of god.  It does however, put to rest certain other concepts of god - namely, the kind of god that heals people.

From the beginning there were always rules to follow with this deity to even gain access to such gifts, and not everyone gains the same gifts (and I hate using the word "gift" because in our society such a word brings to mind "magic").

Of course it's magic.  What else would you call it?  So many models of magic are based on some obscure, minor godling and making sacrifices to it in exchange for power.  And that is precisely what prayers etc are intended to do - to reshape reality through mystical and arcane rituals rather than conventional methods of hard work. 

No atheist can EVER pray, even an endourance prayer - for a selfish motive no less - just to prove or disprove this point (hence my characterization of a genie being summoned from a lamp)...At the same time, no xian can associate every natural healing phenomena to this deity,...

Missing the point.  Please go back and reread.  Let me know if you need any clarifications.

You should read the construction of the temple of Solomon. Solomon married an egyptian woman to gain access to the knowledge of constructing sand-hydrolic machines (of pyramid history).

1. Are these machines detailed in solomon?  By detailed, I mean, specifications, engineering drawings, stress calculations, bill of matierials, etc that would allow me to construct them and explain how it works.
2. Chapter and verse, please?  Where in the bible are the specs for these alleged machines?  That was your whole claim - that the bible contained mechanical engineering.
3. Shouldn't the hebrews have already known how to do this since they allegedly were the slave labor that built the pyramids in the first place?[1]

This contruction went into the development of the Temple, particularly to hide the ark in case of envasion (2 Chronicles 3:17 also talks about it: Boaz & Jachin = Base Fulcrum).

Link? Evidence?  Frankly, Mike Rood has little credibility as an archaeologist (or anything else).   If he has had any of his work confirmed through peer review, please cite it.

Several times in scripture it's quoted that a day is not a day but like thousands of years. The passage of time is relative for each person experiencing it

Actually, that does not say time is relative to each person experiencing it.  It is in reference to yhwh.  And that does not answer my question.  This kind of poetic, hyperbolic language is of no practical use to anyone.  You said it was "advanced time measurement".  Explain what is advanced about it.  Explain how it tells us anything of practical use.  I do not see it as anything but hyperbole as an ignorant writer gushed about his local god.

...and yet most (on both sides) assume (whether to prove or disprove) that creation occured in 6 of our "human" days. They were truly 6 days, but not "days" from human perspective.

That makes no sense.  First of all, what specifically do you mean by "creation"? 

Second of all,  human days are from a human perspective.  It is the amount of time the earth in its current state takes to complete one revolution.  We can get more specific than that, for example, by defining a second by how many times a quartz crystal of a given size, at a given temperature vibrates when subjected to a specific electrical potential. To simply say "a day is a thousand years to yhwh" is meaningless.

If "creation"[2] was created in 6 human days, but not from a human perspective, what does that mean?  How long did creation[3] take?

Psalms 90:4 "For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night."
poetic language referring to yhwh.

2 Peter 3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."
poetic language referring to yhwh.  Not only that, but it is self contradictory.  Of what practical use is this "conversion"?

Daniel 9:24...
...Now is this passage speaking about days, weeks, or years? The answer is "all three at once".

The answer is, it is gibberish.  It is a paradox intended to impress people with its opacity.  I am not impressed.

Well to be fair, we all believe in the concept of owning people, right?

To be fair, no.  I sure don't. I think most people would also disagree with you.

Here's what I mean: if you take out a bank loan, car note or pay income taxes you believe in people owning a portion of you (at least for a time)

Incorrect.  They do not own any part of me.  I am not collateral.  When I take out a loan for a car,the car is collateral, so the bank owns the car, not me.  If I do not wish to continue to pay for the car and I stop paying the bank, they take the car, they do not take me.  If they tried, not only would I have firm legal ground for killing them, they would also be subject to criminal charges and a rather lucrative civil suit.

As far as taxes, I am not owned.  As a part of a civlil society where I enjoy the benefits of roads, bridges, police protection and laws, I am responsible to contribute. 

I am afraid, Joshua, that your perspective has been perverted by idiots who do not have your best interests at heart.

...and you agree to work hard for them until you're freed from that bond...but are you every free from it?

Yes.  When I pay off the loan, I am free from that bond.

Israel was always meant to minister to the world as the priest nation of the nations.

No they were not.  Isreal never ministered to anyone.  They thought (and still think) they are an exceptional people and to this day continue to prevent others from attaining their status as "favored".

(a) 1 John 5:8 ...and before the mercy seat[/b]:")

I have no clue what you are talking about.  I know this was in response to you having "scientific evidence" of the existence of a god.  This post is about the furthest thing I can imagine from scientific evidence.

Please go to youtube and watch the rest of the parts from the youtube video series I provided above.

Absolutely not.  It is lazy and inconsiderate to even suggest it.  If you have a point, please make it in your own words.

There are 11 parts altogether so I didn't want to crowd this forum with them.

Good man.  Thank you for that.  But I am afraid there is no way I am going to watch 11 parts of mike rood.

Are you a jehovah's witness?

In Jerusalem, there was a solar eclipse for 3 hours upon the death of Yahshua ...

Even if there was an eclipse, it is speculation on your part that it coincided with the death of jesus H.  This is not scientific.  And it does not explain the zombies rising from the grave that were mentioned in Matt 27.

(c) Revelation 12:1 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"

yeah yeah yeah.  Look at my icon.  That is me standing over her. 

Look, just because it may mention actual places or events does not mean the whole preposterous story is "scientifically proven".  Harry Potter books mention London, the North Sea and other places in Europe.  That does not mean they are real stories.  And it certainly does not make it scientific evidence.

 1. the answer is no, they weren't.  They were never actually a nation enslaved.  That whole story is fiction.
 2. whatever that means
 3. whatever that means
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Offline Joshua

Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #86 on: December 26, 2010, 04:02:21 PM »
Fare enough. But my point in being so blunt ("...not a genie..blah, blah") is to bring to the forefront a (false) assumption that both camps use to compete against each other; the same false assumption that your camp (merely said for descriptive purposes) attempts to prove a non-existance, while the other camp (in delusion) also attempts to prove existence...when it has ALWAYS been more complicated/responsible than that.

But that was my point.  This question is not a silver bullet designed to disprove all concepts of god.  It does however, put to rest certain other concepts of god - namely, the kind of god that heals people.

Well, the question as framed - and the conclusion drawn from the given answer to the question - doesn't attempt to disprove "certain other concepts" of god, but specifically "the concept of god himself", by disproving that god heals people. I appreciate your "meaning" (and we can agree on your meaning), but the actually question and answer were indeed framed as an attempted silver bullet (collectively).

From the beginning there were always rules to follow with this deity to even gain access to such gifts, and not everyone gains the same gifts (and I hate using the word "gift" because in our society such a word brings to mind "magic").

Of course it's magic.  What else would you call it?  So many models of magic are based on some obscure, minor godling and making sacrifices to it in exchange for power.  And that is precisely what prayers etc are intended to do - to reshape reality through mystical and arcane rituals rather than conventional methods of hard work.

Well if you consider it "magic" then you limit yourself, as one can pick any form of modern medicine or technology and use a time machine (hypothetically) to show it to earlier man and they will most definitely call it magic or sorcery for no other logical reason than the fact that they can't explain how it works, right? Absent of explanation doesn't lend itself to absent of existence (of particular knowledge)...and that's not to say that if they are educated in it they can't eventually understand, correct?

No atheist can EVER pray, even an endourance prayer - for a selfish motive no less - just to prove or disprove this point (hence my characterization of a genie being summoned from a lamp)...At the same time, no xian can associate every natural healing phenomena to this deity,...

Missing the point.  Please go back and reread.  Let me know if you need any clarifications.

Ok. I will...but my point is "(a) the very basis of a prayer - any prayer (as framed) - that is directed towards 'self' will fail, and (b) any prayer that lacks the principal foundation of 'faith in the existence of Yah (to even hear the prayer)' will fail, and (c) any prayer to Yah from someone who's not first "right" with Yah (i.e. obedient to his instructions & in his presence) will fail. These qualifications disqualify both the [cafeteria] xian (and most xians - like 90% - are such) and the atheist (100%).

You should read the construction of the temple of Solomon. Solomon married an egyptian woman to gain access to the knowledge of constructing sand-hydrolic machines (of pyramid history).

1. Are these machines detailed in solomon?  By detailed, I mean, specifications, engineering drawings, stress calculations, bill of matierials, etc that would allow me to construct them and explain how it works.
2. Chapter and verse, please?  Where in the bible are the specs for these alleged machines?  That was your whole claim - that the bible contained mechanical engineering.
3. Shouldn't the hebrews have already known how to do this since they allegedly were the slave labor that built the pyramids in the first place?[1]

This contruction went into the development of the Temple, particularly to hide the ark in case of envasion (2 Chronicles 3:17 also talks about it: Boaz & Jachin = Base Fulcrum).

Link? Evidence?  Frankly, Mike Rood has little credibility as an archaeologist (or anything else).  If he has had any of his work confirmed through peer review, please cite it.
 1. the answer is no, they weren't.  They were never actually a nation enslaved.  That whole story is fiction.

From the responses it would seem that you didn't watch the series (as the series does give book, chapter and verse of the designs (on screen) along with supported archaeological proof)...but then you attempt to discredit the person referencing the book, chapter and verse, which is a little dishonest. It's all there sir. Please take the time to watch the entire series from the beginning with access to any online bible (if but to disprove anything).

I don't assume anyone on this forum would want to be spoon fed, especially when a reference was given to be researched on one's own. Interestingly, it seems as though we both failed each other: I failed to correctly read one of your responses, and you've done the same with proving the content given by these youtube videos.


Several times in scripture it's quoted that a day is not a day but like thousands of years. The passage of time is relative for each person experiencing it

Actually, that does not say time is relative to each person experiencing it.  It is in reference to yhwh.  And that does not answer my question.  This kind of poetic, hyperbolic language is of no practical use to anyone.  You said it was "advanced time measurement".  Explain what is advanced about it.  Explain how it tells us anything of practical use.  I do not see it as anything but hyperbole as an ignorant writer gushed about his local god.

...and yet most (on both sides) assume (whether to prove or disprove) that creation occured in 6 of our "human" days. They were truly 6 days, but not "days" from human perspective.

That makes no sense.  First of all, what specifically do you mean by "creation"? 

Second of all,  human days are from a human perspective.  It is the amount of time the earth in its current state takes to complete one revolution.  We can get more specific than that, for example, by defining a second by how many times a quartz crystal of a given size, at a given temperature vibrates when subjected to a specific electrical potential. To simply say "a day is a thousand years to yhwh" is meaningless.

If "creation"[2] was created in 6 human days, but not from a human perspective, what does that mean?  How long did creation[3] take?
 2. whatever that means
 3. whatever that means

Hmm..? No, I said time was relative for each person experiencing it, and while the verses do reference to Yah, (the faith believes) Yah IS a person. Time is a concept and (itself) ISN'T practical except to those who use it in such a way. But to clarify, I first stated that there was evidence of "ATM" in scripture (after which you asked for proof/location)...now you ask to "explain what's 'advanced' about it"...ok so let's explain what's "advance" about this time measurement...:

1. We measure time on 1 dimension/plane (some call it the 4th); it's linear and from our perspective (using our units of measurement).

2. However, since we weren't "there" at the beginning of this linear plane (nor will we be there at its end) we can't conclude that our perspective (units of time) is constant, but that - indeed - they [units of time] are variable...but "by how much", we can't know.

3. The Bible's most used unit of time measurement is "days", but the word used is not "day", but accurately "Yom".

Ok, well what's a "Yom"?

4. A "Yom" is a perspective (unit of measurement) of time, which can mean either "day" or "year" or "group of days" or "group of years", depending upon the person using the measurement. In scripture, "yom" has been recorded to mean "time", "age", "day", "full year", "days", "length", "fate", "years", and even "chronicles".

5. Then we're told several times that "a day [correctly a 'Yom'] is like a thousand years (not correct translated either...more correctly 'millenia'), and a thousands years is like a day" to Yah.

With "yom" having so many meanings, it's truly a discredit to the authenticity of scripture when it's translated into simply "day".

6. Now, assuming Yah exists for a moment (that he is a person), it is recorded that Yah created the world and the fullness thereof in 5 "Yoms"...and then the beasts & man in the 6th "Yom" (resting on the seventh). But science knows that the world has existed for billions (thousands of thousands of thousands) of (our) years...

Realizing that we're measuring time from our scientific perspective (units), is the SAME timeframe discredited if measured from another perspective? No. Time is relative to persons.

In Gen 2:17 we read, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." ...and yet scripture details that Adam lived until he was 930 years old (gen  5:5). Well wait a sec!? Was Yah lying? Is this an error in scripture? No, this is scriptural proof that time is measured on a more advanced level than our own; Advance Time Measurement.

Adam is recorded to have died 930 years old from the day he ate the forbidden fruit, and based on the scripture that "a yom is like millenia and millenia is like a yom, to yah", Adam died within the "Yom" (thousand years) he ate the forbidden fruit.

7. The words "Seven" and "week" are two different English words used to determine "quanitity": Seven = 7 of [anything]; Week = quantity of [days] (whether "business week" or "regular week")...But the Hebrew word used in scripture for BOTH seven AND week is "Shavua".

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city..."

Question: From what we now know, is "seventy weeks" an accuracte rendering? No.
Question: Is "Seventy Sevens" (Shivim Shavuim) a measurement in days, years, or weeks of years? The answer is "could be All three" (and in fact this is in this case) because a measurement of time depends upon (a) the person giving the measurement and (b) the person receiving the measurement. In this case an angel of Yah gave the measurement and Daniel received it. This passage even plagued Sir Isaac Newton until his death because he bound himself to our perspective (units of time).

You see...if you gave me a measurement in time, it's ok because your perspective is the same as mine (because we are two persons who are similar lifeforms) and it would be safe to assume that I could directly relate to that unit of time. But if (let's say) Yah gave you a measurement in time, your perspective is not the same as his (because you are two persons who measure time differently) so you couldn't simply relate to it on a human level.

Another example is "Lifetime". A "lifetime" is another measurement of time, but how long is it? Well we can try to give a standard but this measurement of time is even moreso relative to the person or thing experiencing it.

Cicadas only live for two (of our) weeks once they're adults, but is that any less a lifetime from their perspective? No. We have a more advance measurement of time as different lifeforms compared to them. So can we really disqualify a similar temporal relationship between we and a (supposed) higher lifeform scientifically who would be more advanced? No. As Einstein said, "time is relative".

Well to be fair, we all believe in the concept of owning people, right?

To be fair, no.  I sure don't. I think most people would also disagree with you.

I give you more credit than this. This isn't an intellegent way to respond. Respond to any of my points in full. Don't snag this quote out of context (c'mon dude?).

Here's what I mean: if you take out a bank loan, car note or pay income taxes you believe in people owning a portion of you (at least for a time)

Incorrect.  They do not own any part of me.  I am not collateral.  When I take out a loan for a car,the car is collateral, so the bank owns the car, not me.  If I do not wish to continue to pay for the car and I stop paying the bank, they take the car, they do not take me.  If they tried, not only would I have firm legal ground for killing them, they would also be subject to criminal charges and a rather lucrative civil suit.

As far as taxes, I am not owned.  As a part of a civlil society where I enjoy the benefits of roads, bridges, police protection and laws, I am responsible to contribute. 

I am afraid, Joshua, that your perspective has been perverted by idiots who do not have your best interests at heart.

With respect, the bank does NOT own the car when you ask for a car loan (or mortgage or personal loan). YOU agree to forfeit the car (the house or thing) if YOU can't pay the cost of borrowing money from the bank.

They don't own the item until you break the first part of the agreement...they don't even give any money to you or the dealership but simply agree to "owe [credit]" those entities (like magic lol). So banks own or give NOTHING of collateral in the ENTIRE deal. YOU are the collateral who agrees "to work" to pay them money for money they agreed to "owe [credit]" you or another. Please read "Modern Money Mechanics" as published by the Federal Reserve.

INCOME Taxes: NONE of the things you've mentioned are because of "income tax" payments. Income taxes go DIRECTLY to the Federal Reserve as INTEREST payments for the LOAN of The Federal Researve Note, because - yes - every note in circularion is a loan to the government from this PRIVATE bank.

...and because "income taxes" is not based on any priveledge (like those you've mentioned) but on the right to HAVE this money, we pay to work. This is the SAME concept instituted by Egypt towards the Israelites: they PAID dues for the privedge of working for Pharoah. At least back then, slave owners clothed and housed their slaves. Today, the slaves are required to also cloth and house themselves.

Someone has been lying to you.


...and you agree to work hard for them until you're freed from that bond...but are you every free from it?

Yes.  When I pay off the loan, I am free from that bond.

"When"...

"Balloon Payment"'...."Refinance"..."Trade in"..."lease to own"..."credit extension"...

When is when? Are you ever free from the bond? You see, the 'illusion' is when you look and see that you've got different 'stuff'; it feels like one has started anew, but - no - it's the same debt with a new label.
 

Israel was always meant to minister to the world as the priest nation of the nations.

No they were not.  Isreal never ministered to anyone.  They thought (and still think) they are an exceptional people and to this day continue to prevent others from attaining their status as "favored".

Note that I said Israel, but from your response it sounds like you're thinking of the current "Nation of Israel" (which is only the descendants of Judah [the Jews]). Israel (of biblical history) was scattered. These are who were meant to minister, but I never said they did...merely that they were meant to.

(a) 1 John 5:8 ...and before the mercy seat[/b]:")

I have no clue what you are talking about.  I know this was in response to you having "scientific evidence" of the existence of a god.  This post is about the furthest thing I can imagine from scientific evidence.

Please go to youtube and watch the rest of the parts from the youtube video series I provided above.

Absolutely not.  It is lazy and inconsiderate to even suggest it.  If you have a point, please make it in your own words.

There are 11 parts altogether so I didn't want to crowd this forum with them.

Good man.  Thank you for that.  But I am afraid there is no way I am going to watch 11 parts of mike rood.

Again, I source references but you don't want to venture a watch. Start from the beginning (part 1) and you will find your scientific proof I promise...unless you're nervous that it actually will make sense (I josh)?

Are you a jehovah's witness?

NOPE!

In Jerusalem, there was a solar eclipse for 3 hours upon the death of Yahshua ...

Even if there was an eclipse, it is speculation on your part that it coincided with the death of jesus H.  This is not scientific.  And it does not explain the zombies rising from the grave that were mentioned in Matt 27.

There's no speculation if the event actually happened...stop dodging the proof. And (lol) it doesn't say zombies rose from the grave.

Look, just because it may mention actual places or events does not mean the whole preposterous story is "scientifically proven".  Harry Potter books mention London, the North Sea and other places in Europe.  That does not mean they are real stories.  And it certainly does not make it scientific evidence.

It could not be any clearer that you'd rather say "it can't be proven" (and maybe you don't want it to be), than to take your time and study the proofs I've offered even to disprove them.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2010, 04:29:13 PM by Joshua »