Author Topic: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"  (Read 12937 times)

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Offline Positiveaob

Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2010, 11:19:35 AM »
I was directly responding to a post that was written within the assumption of God's existence.  If my post was a violation, so was the one to which I was responding.  If an atheist has the right to say "God didn't...," I have the right to respond with "God did..." within the same context.  And as far as substantiating one's statements, I see little enforcement of that rule here.

You cant substantiate something NOT happening.  You can just say with reasonable certainty that when there is no evidence that something happened, and there should be plenty of evidence that it DID happen, it probably did not.

I also cant substantiate that leprechauns dont exist, that my house is not haunted by ghosts, that a martian worship is orbiting around the other side of the sun.  I can just call BS when an extraordinary claim is made without any backing from extraordinary evidence.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2010, 11:34:11 AM »
.  And as far as substantiating one's statements, I see little enforcement of that rule here.

Then you haven't read much. When asked for evidence, we provide it. We expect people to be able to provide it when asked. It would of course be too much to do it for every single claim that;s made. But when that claim is challenged and you are asked to pony up, you have to do that.

Also, I notice that you're not actually responding to any of the points made against you or to your OP. Neither to Screwtape, nor to mine, nor to others except to the one to Emily (which can basically be summed up as 'generic mindless christian respone #12) Did you have any points to make that are actually deserving of contemplation?
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Offline Emily

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2010, 12:16:12 PM »

I was directly responding to a post that was written within the assumption of God's existence.  If my post was a violation, so was the one to which I was responding.  If an atheist has the right to say "God didn't...," I have the right to respond with "God did..." within the same context.  And as far as substantiating one's statements, I see little enforcement of that rule here.

OK, this is in reply to my post. You do have the right to say god did (whatever). You are granted that right as long as you can prove it. So far...nothing.
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Offline rcdrury

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2010, 12:24:26 PM »
You are saying that doctors believe in miracles. Doctors are smart, therefore we should take their word for it.


No, no, no!  I'm simply stating, yet again, that doctors are the most qualified experts available on assessing medical matters, and that a documented substantial majority (per the video creator) of them have encountered specific medical, biological, and/or anatomical occurrences that they feel defy medical and natural possibility.  Are they correct?  I don't know; but they are probably far more qualified to make that call than any of us who are not physicians.  While their statements are not beyond scrutiny, they deserve to not be so easily dismissed. 

Offline Emily

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2010, 12:32:58 PM »
I'm simply stating, yet again, that doctors are the most qualified experts available on assessing medical matters, and that a documented substantial majority (per the video creator) of them have encountered specific medical, biological, and/or anatomical occurrences that they feel defy medical and natural possibility.

What doctors make this claim for something defying medical and natural possibility.If it is documented then you can support this claim of yours.

Quote
While their statements are not beyond scrutiny, they deserve to not be so easily dismissed.

Getting second opinions is a good thing.
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Offline rcdrury

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2010, 12:37:46 PM »
Many of your descriptive examples of "smart people" apply directly to me.

...


No need to post your resume on-line for us.  We are all for the most part educated here.  If you think you're a smart guy, show us with your posts, not your resume.

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You state that 3 out of 4 physicians believe that God performs medical miracles regularly. 

Could you show me where it states this?  I'm being serious, maybe the website states this but I dont remember reading that anywhere.  It's complete bullshit if it does state this.  If 3 out of 4 doctors believe this, then the medical establishment is in trouble.  Luckily, I'm quite confident this isnt the actual case.

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It is also reasonable to assume that many if not most of those who believe in those miracles have genuine experience or knowledge leading them to this belief. 

Not reasonable to assume this at all.  There are alot of people who believe in weird stuff out there, doesnt make it true.

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The mere fact that such learned men of science with expert understanding of the body's natural healing properties hold such a belief is itself compelling evidence of such miracles.

Appeal to authority, and not even an accurate one.  "3 out of 4 doctors" do NOT agree on any such thing. 

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"Why won't God heal amputees?"

I don't know that He doesn't; and neither do you.  I have heard of instances where individuals have had short or partial limbs and those limbs made whole instantly following prayer.  I have not witnessed this personally, but I know and trust others who claim that they have. 

This is BS.  Show me a substantiated case of such a thing happening.  That's like saying "I know people who have traveled back in time, or made themselves invisible by snapping their fingers".  It's BS.

Quote
Does this make it so?  Not necessarily; but that is certainly more compelling than the assertion that such phenomena do not exist just because one has not personally witnessed it.  In other words, they are correct or they are not; you have no knowledge whatsoever that they are incorrect, or that you are correct.  Your assertions are pure unsubstantiated supposition.

An amputee growing back a limb would be major news throughout the world. It would be studied extensively by those same "learned men of science" in the medical community because the implications could affect our treatment of amputees everywhere.  It would certainly be published in a medical journal. 

So yes, it's absolutely safe to say no amputee has ever grown back a limb spontaneously.

I'm gonna skip ahead a bit, because the rest is just more of the same.

Quote
"How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you?"

This question is based on a faulty premise.  He has appeared to me.

Really, what did he look like?  You understand of course (as such an educated person) that if you really are seeing people that other people cant see and hearing voices that other people cant hear, that you are manifesting overt signs of schizophrenia, do you not?



You obviously didn't see the video.  I was in no way touting my education.  If you had seen the subject video, you'd have heard the ridiculous references to education and how it should apply to how one assesses the issue of faith.  Regardless of whether one is an atheist or theist, it is obvious that this guy is an idiot with no understanding of logical application.  I was merely responding to points in the video.  As far as references to my areas of expertise, I was merely illustrating that I do what I do, and I know more about it than most any layman on the planet; the same holds true for physicians or anyone else in a highly specialized field.

Offline rcdrury

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2010, 12:45:10 PM »
Drury, where we are at now is:

Do you have the intention of supporting the claims you made in your response to Emily, as prompted to by people directly asking you?


Nope.  The intent of my original post was to do no more than to counter the illogical approach in the video.  From his YouTube page, it appeared that the creator of the video was an active member of this community.  Had I realized that this is apparently not the case, I probably wouldn't have posted in the first place.  Would I have a desire to discuss my claims further?  Sure; but it's been made clear to me that that would be a violation of forum rules.

Peace

Offline One Above All

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Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2010, 12:53:53 PM »
Drury, where we are at now is:

Do you have the intention of supporting the claims you made in your response to Emily, as prompted to by people directly asking you?


Nope. 

Then you are doing no more than preaching and will be banned if you don't start providing evidence
In short: Evidence or GTFO
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Offline Alzael

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2010, 01:02:43 PM »
You are saying that doctors believe in miracles. Doctors are smart, therefore we should take their word for it.


No, no, no!  I'm simply stating, yet again, that doctors are the most qualified experts available on assessing medical matters, and that a documented substantial majority (per the video creator) of them have encountered specific medical, biological, and/or anatomical occurrences that they feel defy medical and natural possibility.  Are they correct?  I don't know; but they are probably far more qualified to make that call than any of us who are not physicians.  While their statements are not beyond scrutiny, they deserve to not be so easily dismissed.

No, that is not what you are stating. The video says that they believe in miracles. It does not say that they believe that amputees have regrown limbs, or that they have encountered people being spontanteously born. Just that they believe that miracles happen, which could mean anything. Again, I will quote you.

"You state that 3 out of 4 physicians believe that God performs medical miracles regularly." and "It is also reasonable to assume that many if not most of those who believe in those miracles have genuine experience or knowledge leading them to this belief."

There is nothing that says that the miracles they think they have experienced are medical in nature. You are making this up, and are now trying to change your story after being called on it. All this says is that they think miracles happen. And yes, their statements are easily dismissed if they have no evidence. That is how reason and logic works. The doctors can claim miracle all they want, but until they show it, it has no more bearing than anything else. Again, this is something you should well know if you deserved even half of the credentials you claimed to possess. 

Again, to quote you:
"The mere fact that such learned men of science with expert understanding of the body's natural healing properties hold such a belief is itself compelling evidence of such miracles."

Again, no it isn't compelling. If they had evidence it would be compelling, which they don't. You are, and were, saying that we should believe in miracles simply because doctors do, and doctors are smart. This is wrong, we should only start to consider miracles if there is evidence that such things exist.
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Offline Operator_011

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2010, 01:04:23 PM »
Sure; but it's been made clear to me that that would be a violation of forum rules.

Maybe you didn't see my last post (always possible), so I'll politely ask again..

Have you read our rules and etiquette guide yet?
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Offline rcdrury

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2010, 01:04:43 PM »
What doctors make this claim for something defying medical and natural possibility.If it is documented then you can support this claim of yours.



It wasn't my claim; it was from the video!!!

Offline Operator_011

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Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2010, 01:05:22 PM »
Then you are doing no more than preaching and will be banned if you don't start providing evidence
Just a friendly reminder, the staff will decide who is banned.


Eleven.
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Offline Emily

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2010, 01:09:10 PM »
It wasn't my claim; it was from the video!!!

I am sorry. I might have missed the claim in the video about doctors making some claim about something defying medical and natural possibilities. Can you help me out. Here's the transcript from the video;
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video10.htm

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Offline Alzael

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2010, 01:11:42 PM »
Drury, where we are at now is:

Do you have the intention of supporting the claims you made in your response to Emily, as prompted to by people directly asking you?


Nope.  The intent of my original post was to do no more than to counter the illogical approach in the video.  From his YouTube page, it appeared that the creator of the video was an active member of this community.  Had I realized that this is apparently not the case, I probably wouldn't have posted in the first place.  Would I have a desire to discuss my claims further?  Sure; but it's been made clear to me that that would be a violation of forum rules.

Peace

You haven't countered anything. Your argument has been torn to pieces already because it's so patently ridiculous. There are multiple fallacies, base assertions with no backing, misrepresentations of logic and critical thought. It is quite seriously devoid of any intellectual or intelligent thought.Then you refuse to respond to those same posts that point out your failings, misunderstandings, and faulty logic. Aside from being a waste of our time, this is also cowardly and dishonest.

It is only a violation to discuss your claims if you refuse to back them up, which you apparently can't. And have in fact, just now refused to do. If you are unwilling to follow the rules that you agreed to when you signed up, then feel free to go on your way.
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Offline rcdrury

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2010, 01:13:38 PM »
There is nothing that says that the miracles they think they have experienced are medical in nature. You are making this up, and are now trying to change your story after being called on it.


The references in the video were clearly to medical miracles, and it appeared to be strongly implied that such miracles were the basis for the doctors' belief in miracles.  Perhaps my assumption was a stretch, but I don't think so.  Anyway, you now hopefully understand where I was coming from.

Offline Operator_A25

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2010, 01:17:24 PM »
It wasn't my claim; it was from the video!!!

I am sorry. I might have missed the claim in the video about doctors making some claim about something defying medical and natural possibilities. Can you help me out. Here's the transcript from the video;
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video10.htm

I'm with Emily on this, rcdrury.

I'd like to know exactly what was said to lead you to this conclusion. Please take a moment to point out exactly what it is you are talking about.

-A25
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Offline rcdrury

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #45 on: December 11, 2010, 01:22:39 PM »
It wasn't my claim; it was from the video!!!

I am sorry. I might have missed the claim in the video about doctors making some claim about something defying medical and natural possibilities. Can you help me out. Here's the transcript from the video;
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video10.htm

I'm with Emily on this, rcdrury.

I'd like to know exactly what was said to lead you to this conclusion. Please take a moment to point out exactly what it is you are talking about.

-A25


Answered in my response just prior to your post.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #46 on: December 11, 2010, 01:31:07 PM »
Then you are doing no more than preaching and will be banned if you don't start providing evidence
Just a friendly reminder, the staff will decide who is banned.


Eleven.

Sorry, Eleven, I went kinda overboard on my reply
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Offline Operator_011

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Re: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #47 on: December 11, 2010, 01:33:48 PM »
Sorry, Eleven, I went kinda overboard on my reply
It's cool. A friendly reminder is just that.
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Offline Operator_011

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2010, 01:35:07 PM »
Maybe you didn't see my last post (always possible), so I'll politely ask again..

Have you read our rules and etiquette guide yet?

Maybe this'll be a case of third time lucky..


So how about answering my question, rcdrury?
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Offline Operator_A25

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2010, 01:46:18 PM »
Answered in my response just prior to your post.

I'm sorry, but I don't see any quotes or links to the video(s) in question or time references within certain videos that answer Emily's question.

I thought that my use of the word "exactly" would indicate to you that I want to read or hear the words that you read or heard that led you to say the things you are saying about them. Until then, I consider this question unanwered.

Thanks,

-A25
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Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #50 on: December 11, 2010, 02:13:14 PM »
Positiveaob:
Quote
Quote
You state that 3 out of 4 physicians believe that God performs medical miracles regularly.
  Could you show me where it states this?  I'm being serious, maybe the website states this but I dont remember reading that anywhere. 
The 10 questions video states:
Quote
According to a recent poll, 3 out of 4 doctors believe that God is performing medical miracles on earth right now.
I know more about this than I want to. I was puzzled by it when I first read it and tried to find out where it came from. 

My unfortunate conclusion after investigating it was that Marshall Brain (he's the author of the written and video WWGHA material, rcdrury, in case you don't know) was trying to bullshit people with dodgy statistics - particularly since the evidence Brain supplies in suppport of the statistic turns out to be the Press Release pertaining to the survey, not the survey itself. Very poor.

In pursuing the actual data I e-mailed the Theological Seminary which commissioned the survey and the research company which conducted it, and a journalist who wrote an article about it (obsessive, me?) - none could provide the original data, all they had was the PR release.

My little piece of detective work started here. It continues to the end of the thread, interspersed with a separate strand which you'll have to scroll over.

Gnu.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 02:20:46 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline rcdrury

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #51 on: December 11, 2010, 02:15:22 PM »
Answered in my response just prior to your post.

I'm sorry, but I don't see any quotes or links to the video(s) in question or time references within certain videos that answer Emily's question.

I thought that my use of the word "exactly" would indicate to you that I want to read or hear the words that you read or heard that led you to say the things you are saying about them. Until then, I consider this question unanwered.

Thanks,

-A25


Nice try, Twenty-five.

By your hostility, thinly veiled by your syrupy-sweet politeness, and Eleven's needling, it is quite apparent that I'm unwelcome here.  That's cool.  I had no intention of engaging in a debate with anyone but the pea-brain who produced the subject video; and my intent, as stated in my original post, is to limit that debate to the complete lack of reasoning in his argument, not the existence of God.

The video was disingenuous and intellectually dishonest, and anyone arguing on behalf of its creator is either equally dishonest or as devoid of critical thinking skills as the creator appears to be.  I'm not here to preach, and I'm not here to debate something which should not be debated.  I know what I know, and no amount of "evidence" will move someone who does not wish to be moved.  I operate at the prompting of the Holy Spirit.  If He's involved, I am successful, and no intellectual bantering is necessary.  If He's not involved, there's no point.  Until He tells me to move, it's His responsibility, not mine.

Offline Operator_A25

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #52 on: December 11, 2010, 02:23:51 PM »
By your hostility, thinly veiled by your syrupy-sweet politeness, and Eleven's needling, it is quite apparent that I'm unwelcome here.  That's cool.  I had no intention of engaging in a debate with anyone but the pea-brain who produced the subject video; and my intent, as stated in my original post, is to limit that debate to the complete lack of reasoning in his argument, not the existence of God.

If you are so confident in your reasoning then I don't know why you can't debate the people here. You should have no trouble dispatching our arguments.

The video was disingenuous and intellectually dishonest, and anyone arguing on behalf of its creator is either equally dishonest or as devoid of critical thinking skills as the creator appears to be.  I'm not here to preach, and I'm not here to debate something which should not be debated.

My idea of "intellectual dishonesty" is for someone to come to this forum and make claims about the videos that are suspect[1] and then refusing to support those claims when pressed.

I know what I know, and no amount of "evidence" will move someone who does not wish to be moved.  I operate at the prompting of the Holy Spirit.  If He's involved, I am successful, and no intellectual bantering is necessary.  If He's not involved, there's no point.  Until He tells me to move, it's His responsibility, not mine.

You've got the Holy Spirit on your side, so you have an unfair advantage over us, right? Why not stick around and demonstrate your superior logic?

-A25
 1. Edited to reflect Gnu's post above
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 02:31:10 PM by Moderator_A25 »
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Offline rcdrury

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #53 on: December 11, 2010, 02:28:08 PM »
By your hostility, thinly veiled by your syrupy-sweet politeness, and Eleven's needling, it is quite apparent that I'm unwelcome here.  That's cool.  I had no intention of engaging in a debate with anyone but the pea-brain who produced the subject video; and my intent, as stated in my original post, is to limit that debate to the complete lack of reasoning in his argument, not the existence of God.

If you are so confident in your reasoning then I don't know why you can't debate the people here. You should have no trouble dispatching our arguments.

The video was disingenuous and intellectually dishonest, and anyone arguing on behalf of its creator is either equally dishonest or as devoid of critical thinking skills as the creator appears to be.  I'm not here to preach, and I'm not here to debate something which should not be debated.

My idea of "intellectual dishonesty" is for someone to come to this forum and make claims about the videos that are not true and then refusing to support those claims when pressed.

I know what I know, and no amount of "evidence" will move someone who does not wish to be moved.  I operate at the prompting of the Holy Spirit.  If He's involved, I am successful, and no intellectual bantering is necessary.  If He's not involved, there's no point.  Until He tells me to move, it's His responsibility, not mine.

You've got the Holy Spirit on your side, so you have an unfair advantage over us, right? Why not stick around and demonstrate your superior logic?

-A25



Wow; it's obvious that you very carefully read my post.  So, why are you still trying to prompt a debate?

Offline Aaron123

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #54 on: December 11, 2010, 02:29:13 PM »
The video was disingenuous and intellectually dishonest, and anyone arguing on behalf of its creator is either equally dishonest or as devoid of critical thinking skills as the creator appears to be.  I'm not here to preach, and I'm not here to debate something which should not be debated.  I know what I know, and no amount of "evidence" will move someone who does not wish to be moved.  I operate at the prompting of the Holy Spirit.  If He's involved, I am successful, and no intellectual bantering is necessary.  If He's not involved, there's no point.  Until He tells me to move, it's His responsibility, not mine.

I don't think any atheists here have a holier-than-thou attitude.  Yet, the one theist on this thread does.  Why is that?

If you want to feel welcome here, I suggust you drop the attitude.  Calling us "pea-brains" makes it sounds like we're dealing with a ten-years old.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Operator_011

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #55 on: December 11, 2010, 02:31:31 PM »
By your hostility, thinly veiled by your syrupy-sweet politeness, and Eleven's needling,
I'm just asking you a simple question in a polite fashion. Why are you so reluctant to answer it?

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Offline Operator_A25

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #56 on: December 11, 2010, 02:33:05 PM »
Wow; it's obvious that you very carefully read my post.  So, why are you still trying to prompt a debate?

Why are you still posting if you don't want a debate?
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Offline rcdrury

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #57 on: December 11, 2010, 02:36:06 PM »
The video was disingenuous and intellectually dishonest, and anyone arguing on behalf of its creator is either equally dishonest or as devoid of critical thinking skills as the creator appears to be.  I'm not here to preach, and I'm not here to debate something which should not be debated.  I know what I know, and no amount of "evidence" will move someone who does not wish to be moved.  I operate at the prompting of the Holy Spirit.  If He's involved, I am successful, and no intellectual bantering is necessary.  If He's not involved, there's no point.  Until He tells me to move, it's His responsibility, not mine.

I don't think any atheists here have a holier-than-thou attitude.  Yet, the one theist on this thread does.  Why is that?

If you want to feel welcome here, I suggust you drop the attitude.  Calling us "pea-brains" makes it sounds like we're dealing with a ten-years old.



To the best of my knowledge, I called no one here a "pea-brain."  I have been repeatedly informed that that individual is not a member of this forum.  Other than minimally responding to the mostly hostile posts directed at me, I'm not really even participating.  While I have no intention of offending or making myself unwelcome, I have no particular interest in being welcomed here.