Author Topic: Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"  (Read 15995 times)

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Offline rcdrury

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« on: December 10, 2010, 11:59:19 PM »
Re:  "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"

I am assuming that I am addressing the creator of subject video.  I am not going to debate the existence of God with you.  I am going to point out the total lack of logic and scientific principle in your arguments.  Your video is entirely hypocritical in that it accuses persons of faith of reaching their conclusions without rationale while you have reached your conclusions without any logical basis, objectivity, or application of the scientific method.

Many of your descriptive examples of "smart people" apply directly to me.  I hold both a bachelors and a masters degree, and I have been trained to think logically and rationally (I am an analyst both in vocation and by nature).  I don't think that my college education had a great deal to do with my attainment of  critical thinking skills, but that's beside the point; I certainly possess them.  I have been a teacher, a manager, an administrator, a government employee, a business owner, an account rep, an executive, a person working in the financial sector and in human resources, and a software developer.  I am currently the CEO of a moderately large (about 3,000 members) nonprofit entity.  I'd like to think I am a smart person and understand how the world works, but I must admit that it baffles me quite often.

So, let's examine some of the questions and points you make:

You state that 3 out of 4 physicians believe that God performs medical miracles regularly.  You discuss nothing regarding their reasoning; but it is fair to assume that virtually all doctors are highly intelligent, well-educated, rational, and have a thorough working grasp of the natural and biological sciences, along with an understanding of the scientific method.  It is also reasonable to assume that many if not most of those who believe in those miracles have genuine experience or knowledge leading them to this belief.  The mere fact that such learned men of science with expert understanding of the body's natural healing properties hold such a belief is itself compelling evidence of such miracles.


"Why won't God heal amputees?"

I don't know that He doesn't; and neither do you.  I have heard of instances where individuals have had short or partial limbs and those limbs made whole instantly following prayer.  I have not witnessed this personally, but I know and trust others who claim that they have.  Does this make it so?  Not necessarily; but that is certainly more compelling than the assertion that such phenomena do not exist just because one has not personally witnessed it.  In other words, they are correct or they are not; you have no knowledge whatsoever that they are incorrect, or that you are correct.  Your assertions are pure unsubstantiated supposition.


"We all know that amputated legs do not regenerate in response to prayer."

You do NOT know that; you ASSUME that merely because you have not witnessed it.  In fact, if there was a way to verify that this has never happened (which there isn't), it still does not eliminate the possibility.  To suggest that it does is a violation of the scientific method.


"Amputees get no miracles from God."

Says who?  I know of many amputees who have received miracles from God.  That doesn't mean that those miracles have been the regeneration of limbs.

As far as who suffers in this world and who does not, these are issues that have been discussed to death with the only resolution being that we do not understand God's ways; but I've seen much tremendous suffering resulting in wonderful things that could not have taken place without the preceding circumstances.


"Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people?"

There are NO innocent people.  All have fallen short of God's glory and deserve far worse a fate than any we could imagine.  Transgressions of God's laws and standards are anything but trivial.  These are not little things just because you wish to think them so.

The things that you claim make no sense simply make no sense to you.  That doesn't make them "insane."  What really does not make sense is your insistence upon making purely subjective personal assertions, and claiming them to be objective innate observations.


"Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense?"

Are you kidding?  Could you have possibly worded this question in a more loaded and biased manner? I have found nothing in the Bible that is not either naturally plausible or clearly not natural.  A major premise of God's word is that the very foundation of all existence is supernatural.  Again, just because you don't believe it doesn't make it false.  Just because you have no personal experience with this does not mean I haven't.


"...The Bible contains all sorts of information that is total nonsense from a scientific perspective."

From a scientific perspective, there is no such thing as "nonsense."  By definition, science holds that there is no such thing as a probability of either zero or one.  Nothing is to be considered either absolute or impossible.  You have clearly demonstrated your total lack of scientific understanding. 


"God did not create the world in six days..."

Says who?


"There was never a worldwide flood..."

Says who?


"Jonah did not live in a fish's stomach for three days..."

Says who?


"God did not create Adam from a handful of dust..."

Says who?


"Why would an all-knowing God write nonsense?"

Who says he did?  You've made these last five statements as fact, having absolutely no indication of whether or not they are accurate.  In your mind, they are forgone conclusions and any refuting them is "nonsense."  It is fair to presume that none of the acts to which you refer in these statements is possible in the natural, but they are all clearly possible in the supernatural. 


"Every 'answered prayer' is actually a coincidence.  All scientific evidence supports this conclusion."

I would suggest that there is absolutely NO scientific evidence whatsoever supporting this conclusion; and I would challenge you to provide a single example where there is physically verifiable data suggesting that prayer has had no influence on an occurance.  How would it be even possible for such evidence to exist; even more so, how would one verify prayer's non-effect?  Still another example of your inept scientific understanding.

Your assertion that everything makes sense only when one concludes the Bible to be untrue pales in comparison to the fact that if the Bible is true, all of its contents make perfect sense.  The only lapse in the Bible's rationale occurs when one limits it to natural boundaries and feeble human understanding.


"How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you?"

This question is based on a faulty premise.  He has appeared to me.

Offline PostalGirl

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2010, 12:15:03 AM »
For the record, you would do well in not hijacking someone else's topic in my Mailbag. That's inappropriate behavior on this forum. Thanks.

Offline rcdrury

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2010, 12:19:13 AM »
Apparently, I goofed somewhere.  Sorry; the infraction wasn't intentional, and in fact I'm still unaware of exactly what it was.

Offline Dkit

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2010, 12:25:34 AM »
BM
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Offline PostalGirl

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2010, 12:28:44 AM »
You posted what is essentially a new topic within an existing topic. In the Mailbag. The Mailbag is not for new posts from our members. It's for mail and responses to the mail. Please refer to the sticky at the top of the Mailbag for more information.

In any case, you're in the right place now.
I suppose I might as well encourage you to read the posts here while I'm at it. It's got all the goodies for new members; they'll prevent misunderstandings like this in the future if you take a quick minute to familiarize yourself with all of it.

Welcome to the forum.

Offline rcdrury

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2010, 12:32:28 AM »
Thanks.

Offline Operator_A25

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2010, 12:35:54 AM »
Re:  "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"

I am assuming that I am addressing the creator of subject video.

The creator of the video does not frequent the forum, to my knowledge.
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Offline Ashe

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2010, 12:38:10 AM »
"God did not create the world in six days..."

Says who?


"There was never a worldwide flood..."

Says who?


"Jonah did not live in a fish's stomach for three days..."

Says who?


"God did not create Adam from a handful of dust..."

Says who?


Is your argument here that someone has to prove these things did not happen before we decide they did not?
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Offline Emily

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2010, 12:40:18 AM »
I like the says who parts of this post.

You know who says: The lack of evidence, that's who. Of course we are not going to believe in a 6 day creation, a world wide flood or some dude living inside a whale because there is absolutely no evidence for it. I don't know about you but I don't want to be taken for a sucker. Until it's been proven I won't buy it.

There's a whole lot of "I don't knows", and well good for not knowing. I will take to road of assuming it hasn't happened, like the amputees being healed part. For example: I've seen videos of people whose leg seems to be regrowing right in front of the camera but a user here, named VoodooSixx, an atheist, was able to replicate those videos and showed how it can be faked. A lot of the videos I've seen are only parlor tricks. If an amputee's leg was grown back instantly, or even gradually, I am almost certain it would make headlines. So far... nothing.

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Offline Ashe

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2010, 12:42:58 AM »
"Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people?"

There are NO innocent people.  All have fallen short of God's glory and deserve far worse a fate than any we could imagine.  Transgressions of God's laws and standards are anything but trivial.  These are not little things just because you wish to think them so.

This also bothers me, now that I'm rereading it.
What about the babies killed in the flood? What about the unborn children? Surely pregnant women drowned, too. What a terrible way to die, and to think it snuffed out life that didn't even have a chance to fully live.
These fetuses fell short of God's glory?
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Offline Emily

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2010, 12:49:15 AM »
^^One thing that bothers me about god's laws are if he knows that we are going to break his laws he can at least budge a little and lighten up some of his standards. Sure, murdering someone is always bad, but it's absolutely impossible to to follow god's laws, with god sending down his son or not.

But god's reasoning is that we will seek Jesus for forgiveness, but we'd have to ask jesus for forgiveness every second of every day because according to god's laws we break his rules without even knowing it. God's a real hard ass, and he doesn't need to be. In his infinite glory he can become more easy going and allow us mere humans to live like he knew we would, and give us at least some fair shot of making it into heaven.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2010, 01:42:44 AM »
welcome to the forum, rc.  I hope you have a long and pleasant visit here.  Most theists who come are shocked by the fact people do not accord their beliefs any reverence and stomp off in a huff or act out and get banned.   Hopefully you acclimate well.  On to your post...

You make some errors yourself.

You state that 3 out of 4 physicians believe that God performs medical miracles regularly.  ...The mere fact that such learned men of science with expert understanding of the body's natural healing properties hold such a belief is itself compelling evidence of such miracles.

That's what is called an argument from authority.  It is a fallacy.  You are essentially saying because the smart guys say it, it must be true.  But that is bad logic and a bad argument.

I would say that so many doctors believe in miracles is evidence of either someone misconstruing what doctors mean when they say "it's a miracle!" or evidence that the brain is poorly suited for many of the things we use it for.  See my sig below.


I don't know that He doesn't; and neither do you. 

Baloney. We both know amputees don't get healed.  You are just being argumentative. Be honest instead.  That will garner more respect.

I have heard of instances where individuals have had short or partial limbs and those limbs made whole instantly following prayer.

We both know those are baloney.  They are not documented.  When you hear a claim - even one far less outlandish than "yhwh heals amputees" - you need some kind of evidence to support it.  That you accept anecdotal evidence suggests that this was something you would like to believe and you are not trying very hard to be skeptical.   That's fine.  That is your right.  Just don't try to make it seem as if we are being irrational for mocking you for it.

You would have more weight if you had some rigorous documentation.  That is evidence that counts.  The question you should always ask is "how do you know?"  How do you know those people saw what they say?  How do you know they were not tricked?  How do you know they are not deceiving you?  What is more likely, that a person regrew a limb or the people you were talking to embellished (or outright lied) about what they saw?  Again, be honest.

Your assertions are pure unsubstantiated supposition.

Really?  Saying amputees do not miraculously regrow lost limbs is "pure  unsubstantiated supposition"?   That's rich. What would be more fair to say?

"We all know that amputated legs do not regenerate in response to prayer."

You do NOT know that; you ASSUME that merely because you have not witnessed it.

Baloney.  You are just being argumentative again. If it happens it is unbelievably rare and happens only in remote, ass-backward places.  Coincidence?


Says who?  I know of many amputees who have received miracles from God. 

Be more specific.  What were the miracles?  Who were the people?  How do you know?  Until I get some evidence, I have to call baloney.

As far as who suffers in this world and who does not, these are issues that have been discussed to death with the only resolution being that we do not understand God's ways;

Then you don't know your bible very well. The bible deals with the problem of suffering - sometimes called the problem of evil - in five or 6 ways.  An opaque and incomprehensible deity is just one of them. Why bother using an opaque and incomprehensible deity as an explanation for anything?  If it acts in unpredictable ways, how can you be sure it is not just random variation?  And why would anyone want to worship an opaque and incomprehensible god?  That is like my 9th grade girlfriend who would get pissed and give me the silent treatment but not tell me why.


There are NO innocent people.  All have fallen short of God's glory and deserve far worse a fate than any we could imagine. 

A atheists have a much healthier and kinder view of people.

How is it that people are so hideously terrible, unworthy of anything but unimaginable and unspeakable retribution, yet whenever you god botherers get on the topic of abortion you are all about how precious human life is and how murdering innocent babies is so terrible.  Make up your minds.


The things that you claim make no sense simply make no sense to you.  That doesn't make them "insane."

I agree with that.  Weird.


What really does not make sense is your insistence upon making purely subjective personal assertions, and claiming them to be objective innate observations.

Oh, the irony.

"Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense?"

Are you kidding?  Could you have possibly worded this question in a more loaded and biased manner? I have found nothing in the Bible that is not either naturally plausible or clearly not natural.

A talking snake.
Solid colored goats producing stripped offspring because they screwed within sight of stripped sticks.
A man living inside a whale or large fish for 3 days.
a man blowing a horn and demolishing a city.
the nile turning to blood.
magicians turning their staves into snakes.
zombies taking over Jerusalem.
a woman turning into a pillar of salt.
a talking donkey.

And you are the one all up in arms about the point of the site being irrational and illogical?

A major premise of God's word is that the very foundation of all existence is supernatural.  Again, just because you don't believe it doesn't make it false. 

And until I get better evidence than the say-so of you or some iron age goat herder, I will think that is a preposterous idea.  How. Do. You. Know?


From a scientific perspective, there is no such thing as "nonsense."  ...You have clearly demonstrated your total lack of scientific understanding. 

I like the way you book end that sentence with irony.

"God did not create the world in six days..."
Says who?
"There was never a worldwide flood..."
Says who?
"Jonah did not live in a fish's stomach for three days..."
Says who?
"God did not create Adam from a handful of dust..."
Says who?

Now you are off the deep end.  You are getting into the realm of believing anything that cannot be disproved.  That is dangerous territory, man.  Once you go there, how do you draw a line?  There are no werewolves.  Says who?  No such thing as leprechauns.  Says who?  Mermaids are fiction.  Says who?  See where that leads?  Once you open the door to that sort of thing, any hairy monster can walk through and you have no basis for saying it cannot.  You have no basis for saying it is ridiculous.


Who says he did?  You've made these last five statements as fact, having absolutely no indication of whether or not they are accurate.

That is not strictly true.  Some pretty good science shows us the universe had been around for, what, 2 billion years?, before there was such a thing as a "day"[1].   

Geology indicates there is no evidence whatsoever of a worldwide flood.  We have a member here who is an actual geologist.  I do not recommend you argue the point with her, as it will only make you look bad.

And as for Jonah, you are just being argumentative.  Try being honest.


...they are all clearly possible in the supernatural. 

Myeah.  So are vampires.  Fortunately, that does not make Edward the sparkly vampire real or even plausible. 


I would suggest that there is absolutely NO scientific evidence whatsoever supporting this conclusion;

Then you would be wrong.

I would challenge you to provide a single example where there is physically verifiable data suggesting that prayer has had no influence on an occurance.

My Babe Ruth batting average.  I prayed before every at bat one year.  Same BA as the previous.  There were better studies done: 
Prayer does nothing.  In fact, in some cases, prayer made the outcomes for the subjects worse.
This site has the actual study.

 
How would it be even possible for such evidence to exist; even more so, how would one verify prayer's non-effect?  Still another example of your inept scientific understanding.

Never took a college level statistics course, have you?  You could do a design of experiments or a multivariate regression to understand what variables accounted for what percentage of the effects.


"How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you?"

This question is based on a faulty premise.  He has appeared to me.

Please explain this further.  On the surface, if taken literally, this sounds preposterous.  But I am curious to know more.  I would also like to know more specifics on your degrees, if that is not too personal.  What fields and what schools?

 1. provided the writers of the OT meant a revolution of this planet.  I think that is a safe bet since the hebrews had no clue there were other planets
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 01:45:01 AM by screwtape »
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Offline rcdrury

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2010, 09:46:09 AM »

Is your argument here that someone has to prove these things did not happen before we decide they did not?


No; my point is that these are declarations that the author admittedly cannot substantiate, yet they appear to be stated as irrefutable fact.

Offline rcdrury

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2010, 09:59:47 AM »
^^One thing that bothers me about god's laws are if he knows that we are going to break his laws he can at least budge a little and lighten up some of his standards. Sure, murdering someone is always bad, but it's absolutely impossible to to follow god's laws, with god sending down his son or not.

But god's reasoning is that we will seek Jesus for forgiveness, but we'd have to ask jesus for forgiveness every second of every day because according to god's laws we break his rules without even knowing it. God's a real hard ass, and he doesn't need to be. In his infinite glory he can become more easy going and allow us mere humans to live like he knew we would, and give us at least some fair shot of making it into heaven.


Jesus came into the world, as you suggest, because the Father knew we would sin and need a blood sacrifice for that sin.  Jesus also came into the world to be an example of what we could and should be.  While He was God, He was COMPLETELY man; He had no tools available to Him that we do not have, yet He maintained that perfect existence that you claim to be impossible.  I agree that it is impossible for us; sort of.  It is so close to impossible that no one else ever achieved it or ever will, but it IS possible; that's why, without Christ, we are fully accountable for our sin.  Given that, redemption through Christ is nothing but an opportunity presented to us by an all-loving merciful God.  We have no shot at doing it on our own, so He made it pretty simple for us.

Offline Aaron123

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2010, 10:11:25 AM »
Jesus came into the world, as you suggest, because the Father knew we would sin and need a blood sacrifice for that sin.  Jesus also came into the world to be an example of what we could and should be.  While He was God, He was COMPLETELY man; He had no tools available to Him that we do not have, yet He maintained that perfect existence that you claim to be impossible.  I agree that it is impossible for us; sort of.  It is so close to impossible that no one else ever achieved it or ever will, but it IS possible; that's why, without Christ, we are fully accountable for our sin.  Given that, redemption through Christ is nothing but an opportunity presented to us by an all-loving merciful God.  We have no shot at doing it on our own, so He made it pretty simple for us.

Now you're just preaching.  We've all heard this before.  Some of us even belived in it at one point.  We don't now.  We're not impressed with this capsule summery of christian theology.  Some of us don't even think there was a historical Jesus of some sort.  You need to prove that Jesus did exist and that he was the son of god.  Otherwise, all you have are baseless assertions.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2010, 10:14:16 AM »

Is your argument here that someone has to prove these things did not happen before we decide they did not?


No; my point is that these are declarations that the author admittedly cannot substantiate, yet they appear to be stated as irrefutable fact.

Lacking any evidence of god's existence. Or that god heals amputees, or that anything in your religion is true. The only logical position to take is non-belief. If you had even the slightest bit of skill in logic and critical thinking you should know this. You also wouldn't be committing as many blatant fallacies. You also didn't respond to any other points rather noticeably.

Jesus came into the world, as you suggest, because the Father knew we would sin and need a blood sacrifice for that sin.  Jesus also came into the world to be an example of what we could and should be.  While He was God, He was COMPLETELY man; He had no tools available to Him that we do not have, yet He maintained that perfect existence that you claim to be impossible.  I agree that it is impossible for us; sort of.  It is so close to impossible that no one else ever achieved it or ever will, but it IS possible; that's why, without Christ, we are fully accountable for our sin.  Given that, redemption through Christ is nothing but an opportunity presented to us by an all-loving merciful God.  We have no shot at doing it on our own, so He made it pretty simple for us.

So Jesus 'sacrificed' himself, which really wasn't a sacrifice since he's god himself. He did this to pay a debt of sin that was owed to himself. He was both god and completely a man. He had no tools available to him that we do not have (except for the divine powers and ability to create miracles,right?) And he gave us the chance to be redeemed through Christ. Even though he purposefully set standards so high that it's almost impossible to live up to them. Standards which not only did he set, but since he created us knows that we cannot reach.

Oh yeah. I don't know how I ever could have doubted your obvious skills at logic and thinking.

Seriously, is this all that you can do? Even for theists this is lame thinking. Also this is simply a bare assertion with no backing behind it. No intelligent thought put into the argument, and clearly no introspection on your part.

Let me give you a quick piece of advice, preaching is against the forum rules. Everyone here is expected to back up everything that they say. If you can't do that, which seems to be the case, then you won't last very long and will get smacked down hard by everyone here.
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Offline rcdrury

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2010, 10:24:58 AM »
That's what is called an argument from authority.  It is a fallacy.  You are essentially saying because the smart guys say it, it must be true.  But that is bad logic and a bad argument.


No; I'm saying that a strong majority of well-qualified experts have personal knowledge of occurrences within their respective areas of practice that they did not consider to be plausible in the natural realm of possibility.  I'm a smart guy and an expert in certain areas.  If I say something about personal finance, it is almost certainly correct.  If I say something about aviation, it is almost certainly correct.  These are areas where I have tremendous education and experience; I am an expert in them.  If I say something about medicine, who knows?  I'm not an expert in that; physicians are.

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2010, 10:26:25 AM »
Jesus came into the world, as you suggest, because the Father knew we would sin and need a blood sacrifice for that sin.  Jesus also came into the world to be an example of what we could and should be.  While He was God, He was COMPLETELY man; He had no tools available to Him that we do not have, yet He maintained that perfect existence that you claim to be impossible.  I agree that it is impossible for us; sort of.  It is so close to impossible that no one else ever achieved it or ever will, but it IS possible; that's why, without Christ, we are fully accountable for our sin.  Given that, redemption through Christ is nothing but an opportunity presented to us by an all-loving merciful God.  We have no shot at doing it on our own, so He made it pretty simple for us.

rcdrury, you are just preaching here.  Preaching is against the forum rules.  If you have not already done so, please read those rules, which you can find here:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=5628.0

All of the rules are important, but the one you should be paying particular attention to at the moment (since it's the one you're breaking) is this one:

"Discussion threads are for discussion of the topic at hand, not simply advertising one's opinions. As such, forum members are expected to back up assertions they make, and not engage in stonewalling, shifting goalposts, changing the subject, or employing similar tactics to avoid addressing points raised against them."

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Offline rcdrury

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2010, 10:35:11 AM »
Now you're just preaching.  We've all heard this before.  Some of us even belived in it at one point.  We don't now.  We're not impressed with this capsule summery of christian theology.  Some of us don't even think there was a historical Jesus of some sort.  You need to prove that Jesus did exist and that he was the son of god.  Otherwise, all you have are baseless assertions.


No; this was a direct response to Emily's comments regarding God's reasoning, actions, and motives.  While she may not believe in God's existence, her statements were made within the premise of His existence.  I responded likewise.

Offline Alzael

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2010, 10:37:13 AM »
That's what is called an argument from authority.  It is a fallacy.  You are essentially saying because the smart guys say it, it must be true.  But that is bad logic and a bad argument.


No; I'm saying that a strong majority of well-qualified experts have personal knowledge of occurrences within their respective areas of practice that they did not consider to be plausible in the natural realm of possibility.  I'm a smart guy and an expert in certain areas.  If I say something about personal finance, it is almost certainly correct.  If I say something about aviation, it is almost certainly correct.  These are areas where I have tremendous education and experience; I am an expert in them.  If I say something about medicine, who knows?  I'm not an expert in that; physicians are.

From you: "You state that 3 out of 4 physicians believe that God performs medical miracles regularly.  You discuss nothing regarding their reasoning; but it is fair to assume that virtually all doctors are highly intelligent, well-educated, rational, and have a thorough working grasp of the natural and biological sciences, along with an understanding of the scientific method.  It is also reasonable to assume that many if not most of those who believe in those miracles have genuine experience or knowledge leading them to this belief.  The mere fact that such learned men of science with expert understanding of the body's natural healing properties hold such a belief is itself compelling evidence of such miracles."

You are saying that doctors believe in miracles. Doctors are smart, therefore we should take their word for it. Doctors being intelligent has nothing to do with it. Intelligent people are still capable of being stupid at times. Especially in areas outside of their expertise, which miracles are. This is a fallacy. Doctors are not experts on miracles (no one is) so the fact that they believe in miracles has no bearing on whether they should be believed. The relevant point is whether or not there is evidence of miracles. Which there isn't unless you theists have been holding out on everyone else. Also experiences do not count as evidence. This is, again, something that you should be well-aware of.  Which leads me to one of two conclusions. Either you are lying about your education, or you are attempting to be deliberately misleading here. Neither of which will work very well here.
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2010, 10:39:27 AM »
No; I'm saying that a strong majority of well-qualified experts have personal knowledge of occurrences within their respective areas of practice that they did not consider to be plausible in the natural realm of possibility.  I'm a smart guy and an expert in certain areas.  If I say something about personal finance, it is almost certainly correct.  If I say something about aviation, it is almost certainly correct.  These are areas where I have tremendous education and experience; I am an expert in them.  If I say something about medicine, who knows?  I'm not an expert in that; physicians are.

What is the name of the course in med school where doctors are trained in the functioning of the supernatural?

Also, comparing medicine to airplane mechanics is false equivocation. Anything that goes wrong with a plane is mechanically possible to fix and diagnose. There are never things that go wrong in airplane mechanics where the knowledge does not exist on how to diagnose or repair. That is not so with the human body. Cancer research is ongoing, for instance. So, a doctor can honestly say "the definate explanation for why this cancer has behaved in such and such a way does not exist", and that certainly does not qualify a doctor to say, "therefore a magic sky man done fixed it".

A doctor's opinion on a subject they do not understand is just that, an unsubstantiated opinion. When an expert defaults to "magic", it is an indication the experience has fallen outside of their ability and skill set. 
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline screwtape

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2010, 10:52:09 AM »
No;

Yes. 

I'm not an expert in that; physicians are.

I understand what you are trying to say, but as Ambassador Pony pointed out, with medicine and human physiology (and the supernatural), it is not as cut and dry.  You are making an unsupportable argument.  You are also talking about anecdotes, not data.  What doctors know about medicine (et al) is based on data, not a rare personal experience.  I thought we already got that out of the way when you were talking about knowing people who knew people (who knew people...) who were recipients of miracles?

 A finance guy, huh?  No wonder magic seems like a plausible explanation to you.


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Offline Aaron123

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2010, 10:57:30 AM »
No; this was a direct response to Emily's comments regarding God's reasoning, actions, and motives.  While she may not believe in God's existence, her statements were made within the premise of His existence.  I responded likewise.

All you did was regurgulate standard christian theology.  That's considered preaching.

And I noticed you didn't address the parts about it being baseless assertations.  You need to demostrate that any of that stuff actually happened.  Don't just preach "the good news" and expect us to swallow it.
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Offline rcdrury

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2010, 11:02:59 AM »
Let me give you a quick piece of advice, preaching is against the forum rules. Everyone here is expected to back up everything that they say. If you can't do that, which seems to be the case, then you won't last very long and will get smacked down hard by everyone here.



There was no preaching in my post.  As I stated in my last post, I was was responding directly to another post (presumably from an atheist) that made direct reference to God's actions. 

Offline rcdrury

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2010, 11:08:26 AM »
Jesus came into the world, as you suggest, because the Father knew we would sin and need a blood sacrifice for that sin.  Jesus also came into the world to be an example of what we could and should be.  While He was God, He was COMPLETELY man; He had no tools available to Him that we do not have, yet He maintained that perfect existence that you claim to be impossible.  I agree that it is impossible for us; sort of.  It is so close to impossible that no one else ever achieved it or ever will, but it IS possible; that's why, without Christ, we are fully accountable for our sin.  Given that, redemption through Christ is nothing but an opportunity presented to us by an all-loving merciful God.  We have no shot at doing it on our own, so He made it pretty simple for us.

rcdrury, you are just preaching here.  Preaching is against the forum rules.  If you have not already done so, please read those rules, which you can find here:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=5628.0

All of the rules are important, but the one you should be paying particular attention to at the moment (since it's the one you're breaking) is this one:

"Discussion threads are for discussion of the topic at hand, not simply advertising one's opinions. As such, forum members are expected to back up assertions they make, and not engage in stonewalling, shifting goalposts, changing the subject, or employing similar tactics to avoid addressing points raised against them."

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Let me try this once more:

I was directly responding to a post that was written within the assumption of God's existence.  If my post was a violation, so was the one to which I was responding.  If an atheist has the right to say "God didn't...," I have the right to respond with "God did..." within the same context.  And as far as substantiating one's statements, I see little enforcement of that rule here.

Offline Positiveaob

Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2010, 11:13:19 AM »
Many of your descriptive examples of "smart people" apply directly to me.

...


No need to post your resume on-line for us.  We are all for the most part educated here.  If you think you're a smart guy, show us with your posts, not your resume.

Quote
You state that 3 out of 4 physicians believe that God performs medical miracles regularly. 

Could you show me where it states this?  I'm being serious, maybe the website states this but I dont remember reading that anywhere.  It's complete bullshit if it does state this.  If 3 out of 4 doctors believe this, then the medical establishment is in trouble.  Luckily, I'm quite confident this isnt the actual case.

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It is also reasonable to assume that many if not most of those who believe in those miracles have genuine experience or knowledge leading them to this belief. 

Not reasonable to assume this at all.  There are alot of people who believe in weird stuff out there, doesnt make it true.

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The mere fact that such learned men of science with expert understanding of the body's natural healing properties hold such a belief is itself compelling evidence of such miracles.

Appeal to authority, and not even an accurate one.  "3 out of 4 doctors" do NOT agree on any such thing. 

Quote
"Why won't God heal amputees?"

I don't know that He doesn't; and neither do you.  I have heard of instances where individuals have had short or partial limbs and those limbs made whole instantly following prayer.  I have not witnessed this personally, but I know and trust others who claim that they have. 

This is BS.  Show me a substantiated case of such a thing happening.  That's like saying "I know people who have traveled back in time, or made themselves invisible by snapping their fingers".  It's BS.

Quote
Does this make it so?  Not necessarily; but that is certainly more compelling than the assertion that such phenomena do not exist just because one has not personally witnessed it.  In other words, they are correct or they are not; you have no knowledge whatsoever that they are incorrect, or that you are correct.  Your assertions are pure unsubstantiated supposition.

An amputee growing back a limb would be major news throughout the world. It would be studied extensively by those same "learned men of science" in the medical community because the implications could affect our treatment of amputees everywhere.  It would certainly be published in a medical journal. 

So yes, it's absolutely safe to say no amputee has ever grown back a limb spontaneously.

I'm gonna skip ahead a bit, because the rest is just more of the same.

Quote
"How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you?"

This question is based on a faulty premise.  He has appeared to me.

Really, what did he look like?  You understand of course (as such an educated person) that if you really are seeing people that other people cant see and hearing voices that other people cant hear, that you are manifesting overt signs of schizophrenia, do you not?
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Offline Positiveaob

Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2010, 11:16:07 AM »
No; I'm saying that a strong majority of well-qualified experts have personal knowledge of occurrences within their respective areas of practice that they did not consider to be plausible in the natural realm of possibility.  I'm a smart guy and an expert in certain areas.  If I say something about personal finance, it is almost certainly correct.  If I say something about aviation, it is almost certainly correct.  These are areas where I have tremendous education and experience; I am an expert in them.  If I say something about medicine, who knows?  I'm not an expert in that; physicians are.

Show me the data regarding physicians.  And stop bragging about how smart you are.
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2010, 11:18:02 AM »
Ya, drury's post was two things:

1) Prompted by a question that seemed to allow / assume a wack of unsubstantiated assumptions.

2) A response full of unsubstantiated assumptions.

His response was "in kind", and, I think, fair (and, now fair game).

Other members have now directly challenged those assumptions he (and Emily, theoretically) is making, and he can either support or retract. I think it is in line with the OP to have the discussion brought up by the post.

Drury, where we are at now is:

Do you have the intention of supporting the claims you made in your response to Emily, as prompted to by people directly asking you? 
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Operator_011

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Re: "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer"
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2010, 11:18:28 AM »
Hi rcdrury,

I'm curious, have you read our rules and etiquette guides yet?


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