Author Topic: I believe  (Read 10065 times)

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Offline laura1

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Re: I believe
« Reply #58 on: December 14, 2010, 07:59:43 AM »
hi

in my understanding from my findings etc is that people are supposed to speak and act on behalf of God.  He gave his Holy Spirit to empower us to live the way He wanted us to live, with giving, sharing, loving, caring, kindness, love, patience, now dont all attack me at once, im not the enemy here, i just make friends easily and have discussions with people from all walks of life with all kinds of beliefs cause i dont want to live in a box and be blind to whats going on.  I know you say well the old testament killings, I didnt live back then, but in theory if people lived as abovementioned, we cared and loved and were giving and kind this world would be a better place by far.

kind regards

laura     
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Offline plethora

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Re: I believe
« Reply #59 on: December 14, 2010, 08:30:02 AM »
You're going around in circles and you are not addressing any of the points I have made to you.

We don't need god, the holy spirit or any of that fairytale nonsense to be giving, sharing, loving, caring, kind, and patient.

I've already told you that the old testament was written by primitive men from the late bronze age middle east. That explains why there are killings, blood sacrifices, creation myths, slavery, oppression of women and children, torture, rape, etc...

Civilization has evolved in the past approx. 3500 years since it was written. Morality has evolved. There is no god in this equation.

If everyone was giving, sharing, loving, caring, kind, and patient of course the world would be a better place. So what? That has nothing to do with the existence of a god. We don't get our morals from a god. We don't need 'divine inspiration' to be all those things.

I am an atheist. I am not enlightened by some imaginary holy spirit. Yet I have never raped, ensalved or murdered anyone. I give 5% of all my wages to charity... that's more than I pay for council tax... that's the equivalent of one week's worth of groceries for a family of 3. I have volunteered, I have helped raise money for charity and I am deeply saddened by the suffering in this world.

What you are describing is the equivalent of me giving my children an instruction book they can't understand and then leaving them on a deserted island to fend for themselves. There's CCTV all over the island and I can see them all the time, but I don't intervene. In fact, they never even met me or have any proof that I exist.

One of the kids falls and breaks a leg... he is a pain, agony, he doesn't know what to do... he may die... he screams for his daddy to please help ... and all I do is sit back and watch this happening on my screen, without intervening... and on top of that, I blame him for his own pain! His brother looks at him and blames the others brothers and sisters around him for his pain. Blame everyone except the father who irresponsibly put them in that situation in the first place!

They may as well not even have a father since I'm not doing anything anyway!

Well this is what your god character is like.

He either doesn't exist (which he doesn't) or he is a giant sadistic prick.
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Offline Operator_020

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Re: I believe
« Reply #60 on: December 14, 2010, 10:00:14 AM »
Hi laura1

I have a question or two for you.  You said:

in my understanding from my findings etc is that people are supposed to speak and act on behalf of God.  He gave his Holy Spirit to empower us to live the way He wanted us to live...

How can you tell whom is speaking on behalf of god?  Many people have claimed to speak for god, and many times they contradict each other.  So how do you differentiate the imposters from the genuine article?  How can we tell who has the holy spirit?

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Online Aaron123

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Re: I believe
« Reply #61 on: December 14, 2010, 10:18:51 AM »
in my understanding from my findings etc is that people are supposed to speak and act on behalf of God.  He gave his Holy Spirit to empower us to live the way He wanted us to live, with giving, sharing, loving, caring, kindness, love, patience   

Laura1, please read the bible before you make such a statement again.  Read the entire book before you come back and say that god is all about love and kindness.  Many of us have read the entire bible.  The bible is the very reason why we do not believe.

You appear to be at least somewhat familar with genesis and exodus, so you might want to start with leviticus.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+1&version=NIV

Start here, and don't stop until you reach the end of revelation.
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Offline plethora

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Re: I believe
« Reply #62 on: December 14, 2010, 10:25:00 AM »
She seems to have a self-imposed blind spot for the nasty parts of the bible. She has completely ignored my request for her to acknowledge that the bible promotes the owning slaves, beating them and raping them and instead continues to speak of god as a source of all the goody goody things.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: I believe
« Reply #63 on: December 14, 2010, 10:32:41 AM »
You appear to be at least somewhat familar with genesis and exodus, so you might want to start with leviticus.

Agreed completely.  Leviticus sets a wide variety of rules about stuff that most of us today would consider petty or even ridiculous, such as wearing clothes made from two different fibers, and it prescribes the death penalty for almost all transgressions listed.  (If we actually followed the laws given in Leviticus, the human race would probably be completely extinct in just a few years.)  This is not even remotely indicative of a being that wants us "to live, with giving, sharing, loving, caring, kindness, love, patience".

I think it was Screwtape who commented recently that he was a Christian up until he actually read the bible.  He said he was horrified by what he saw there, and it deconverted him.  I'd hazard a guess that Leviticus, in particular, was probably a big part of the reason (although I'm not trying to speak for him, of course).
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Offline frofrodajimmyboy

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Re: I believe
« Reply #64 on: December 14, 2010, 10:33:36 AM »
People who have billions of dollars and who dont even know what to do with their billions, say they decided to help those poor people.  Instead of being more and more greedy they would go to these starving nations and make programmes possible with their billions and billions of dollars that they use for things like war and killing and instead planted fields and made irrigation possible so these people could eat, a God given idea, the Bible the fairy tale book asks us to help the poor,

I think it's worth pointing out here that most billionaires spend an incredible amount of money on different charitable donations, some even creating their own charities.  I can't think of a single billionaire who uses his money for "things like war and killing" with the exception of a few dictators, who are the extreme minority.  It seems like you're basing your entire point here on a ridiculous stereotype. 

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Re: I believe
« Reply #65 on: December 14, 2010, 12:56:07 PM »
I think it was Screwtape who commented recently that he was a Christian up until he actually read the bible.  He said he was horrified by what he saw there, and it deconverted him.  I'd hazard a guess that Leviticus, in particular, was probably a big part of the reason (although I'm not trying to speak for him, of course).

Yep.  I was a faltering Roman Catholic.  I could only justify my godbelief with the bible.  Leviticus was awful, but my delusion was broken early in Genesis.  The exact verse that ended it for me was Genesis 6:4
Quote
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
It was clearly primitive polytheism, even less sensible than Greek Mythology.  That pulled the rug out from under any faith I had left.
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: I believe
« Reply #66 on: December 14, 2010, 02:18:21 PM »
People who have billions of dollars and who don't even know what to do with their billions, say they decided to help those poor people.  Instead of being more and more greedy they would go to these starving nations and make programmes possible with their billions and billions of dollars that they use for things like war and killing and instead planted fields and made irrigation possible so these people could eat, a God given idea, the Bible the fairy tale book asks us to help the poor,

Laura1, The bible tells us to give to the poor. It sounds sensible, but if one presupposes that god is perfectly wise, it is quickly seen that giving handouts causes a parasitic dependability that is not healthy for the poor. It is much better to be charitable constructively through economic job creation than giving food handouts. If you allow a beggar to subsist on handouts, then that is what he will do, to his own detriment.

In Game theory class in college we studied the billionaire's political dilemma. Basically it goes like this. Suppose a Billionaire wanted to help Flint Michigan by creating new infrastructure and jobs. So he decides that it needs a new technology center that would cost 10 billion and employ 10 thousand locals. To get it funded he decides not to use his own money, he first goes to the state capital and offers 2 billion dollars to whichever political party will produce the most votes for the proposition in the event that the proposal looses. The proposition is that the land costs and taxes for the center will be paid for by the state. He then Goes likewise to the US Capital and makes a similar offer for construction and operating costs from the federal government. As neither party could afford not to play, the propositions would pass in both places and the billionaires good deed would cost him nothing.

So in effect, just putting his 2 billion dollars at risk, could help the poor in Flint Michigan more than if the man gave them the money directly.

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Offline laura1

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Re: I believe
« Reply #67 on: December 17, 2010, 03:46:03 AM »
Laura1, The bible tells us to give to the poor. It sounds sensible, but if one presupposes that god is perfectly wise, it is quickly seen that giving handouts causes a parasitic dependability that is not healthy for the poor. It is much better to be charitable constructively through economic job creation than giving food handouts. If you allow a beggar to subsist on handouts, then that is what he will do, to his own detriment.

Hi

 just a thought on now it is not wise to give to poor cause they become dependant on handouts, there are programmes available and opportunities then for these people who live in poverty to get involved in to improve their life. Many a poor underprivleged person has risen above their circumstances with a bit of determination and effort, the original point made was why doesnt God if he exists take all suffering away in the blink of an eye with a magic wand, however another possiblity besides the magic wand taking all suffering away is the great many stories of people who have risen above their cicumstances the rags to riches stories, however im sure you would not give "god" any credit for having had any hand in any good news story as it would be seen as just humans using their skills and not God reaching down to assist in any way im sure thats how youll see it.

As to the desperate questions of the cruel God of the old testament that has lead many away from God, today we have a new covenant with God, in another part of the Bible new testament, reference is made back to these very happenings in the old testament, a better new covenant was created by God Hebrews 9:11 - (Im not preaching but attempting to answer a question most posed to me) Christ being a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, not of this building, neither by the blood of goats and calves entered in once into the Holy place having obtained redemption for us.  But then I let you decide as Christ is also an imaginery figure to some, so nothing will make sense if Christ is also just imaginary. 

kind regards  laura     
Laura1

Online Aaron123

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Re: I believe
« Reply #68 on: December 17, 2010, 09:42:24 AM »
just a thought on now it is not wise to give to poor cause they become dependant on handouts, there are programmes available and opportunities then for these people who live in poverty to get involved in to improve their life. Many a poor underprivleged person has risen above their circumstances with a bit of determination and effort, the original point made was why doesnt God if he exists take all suffering away in the blink of an eye with a magic wand, however another possiblity besides the magic wand taking all suffering away is the great many stories of people who have risen above their cicumstances the rags to riches stories, however im sure you would not give "god" any credit for having had any hand in any good news story as it would be seen as just humans using their skills and not God reaching down to assist in any way im sure thats how youll see it.

Honestly, this isn't much of a defense for god or for christianity.  You gave a couple of examples of people doing things, and gave no indication of how god is suppose to have anything to do with them.  This would be better if you could tell us how we know when someone goes from rags to riches on his own VS someone going from rags to riches with the help of god.  Saying "god helped me" is not a good answer because anyone can make that statement.  You'd also need to tell us how this would be compatable with what Jesus said about being rich. (give up EVERYTHING you have, and then you can follow him)[1]




Quote
As to the desperate questions of the cruel God of the old testament that has lead many away from God, today we have a new covenant with God, in another part of the Bible new testament, reference is made back to these very happenings in the old testament, a better new covenant was created by God Hebrews 9:11 - (Im not preaching but attempting to answer a question most posed to me) Christ being a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, not of this building, neither by the blood of goats and calves entered in once into the Holy place having obtained redemption for us.  But then I let you decide as Christ is also an imaginery figure to some, so nothing will make sense if Christ is also just imaginary. 

 
Again, poor defense.  Actually, it's not a defense at all.  This is just side-stepping the issue.  Even if we accept that god made a new covenant, and this wiped the slate clean, this still doesn't address the cruel behavior of god during the old testament period.  Beside which, the bible doesn't accept the idea of god writing off his laws and wipping the slate clean.

Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God endures forever.

Psalm 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul. (if the law is perfect, then there would be no need to fix or change things)

Matthew 5:17-20(Jesus speaking)
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.  Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.  For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.


 1. Mark 10:17-29
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Re: I believe
« Reply #69 on: December 17, 2010, 12:03:25 PM »
just a thought on now it is not wise to give to poor cause they become dependant on handouts, there are programmes available and opportunities then for these people who live in poverty to get involved in to improve their life.

yeah.  jesus H was totally against charity.  I'm pretty sure jesus H said something like "do not give to the poor, lest the lazy swine become dependent on handouts."   Oh, wait, that's not what he said.  He said the exact opposite.

That sort of defines the poor, doesn't it?  Dependent on a handout.  Who should get the handouts though?  People who are not dependent on them?  Why would you give a hand out to someone who did not need it? 

What you are saying is people are like pigeons or squirrels.  If you feed them, they will flock to you.  Do you think poor people like depending on others to feed their kids?  Do you think they like wearing second hand clothes? 

You think you are advocating some kind of tough love, but you are not.  You are just buying into a conservative myth that is just as useless and ineffective as a conservative myth that abstinence only sex education discourages kids from having sex.  jesus H would not approve.

 
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Offline William

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Re: I believe
« Reply #70 on: December 17, 2010, 04:02:39 PM »
...however im sure you would not give "god" any credit for having had any hand in any good news story as it would be seen as just humans using their skills and not God reaching down to assist in any way im sure thats how youll see it...

Laura this is pure excusiology - or in more precise language, utter bullshit!  :police:

How difficult would it be for almighty God to put His own brand on good works/good news stories that alleviate suffering and poverty?  If God could actually do something material to help people - eg give them jobs, or stable weather, or plants that grow in the desert or whatever - He could also actually do something to stamp His brand on those deeds. There are any number of public relations techniques to associate brands with things and events ... just a few quick ideas He could use to get modern media attention:
  • sky writing without a plane
  • pamphlets falling perpetually from heaven
  • graffiti appearing on all churches - while you watch
  • changing all bottled water on the planet into wine
  • parting the sea, and just leaving it like that
  • a global email message from God to every email address in existence
  • bolts of lightning simultaneously striking 100 pre-identified targets across the world (identified in said sky writing, pamphlets, graffiti or global email )

I could go on ... but I think you get the picture.  For a Guy who is worthy of worship, everything imaginable that He could easily do to make himself unambiguously known, He does not!  Why?  :?
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Offline sammylama

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Re: I believe
« Reply #71 on: December 17, 2010, 05:41:51 PM »

yeah.  jesus H was totally against charity.  I'm pretty sure jesus H said something like "do not give to the poor, lest the lazy swine become dependent on handouts."   Oh, wait, that's not what he said.  He said the exact opposite.


Or, at least that's how the legend/myth of "Jesus" goes...      ;)
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Offline Odin

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Re: I believe
« Reply #72 on: December 17, 2010, 07:53:13 PM »
...today we have a new covenant with God, in another part of the Bible new testament, reference is made back to these very happenings in the old testament, a better new covenant was created by God Hebrews 9:11

Laura1,

You might be interested in my favorite Bible verse.  It's 1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

You sound like a child.

For me, Odin, putting away childish things meant no longer believing in ghosts, including the
father, son and holy ghost.

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Offline laura1

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Re: I believe
« Reply #73 on: December 20, 2010, 01:20:09 AM »
hi

Is God to blame for everthing that has ever gone wrong in the world ask yourselves? Just imagine for one minute that man didnt destroy the planet the way he has and things were still the way God made them.  Do you know how the ecosystems work, in perfect balance, everything working together in perfect harmony the way God made it.  Did God create acid rain which kills the plants, did God create pollution, did God create water pollution, is God killing the animals off with potching, does God take a gun in his hand and shoot people, did God create the atomic bomb, did God create drugs?  something to think about who created these things that are distroying lives and destroying the planet, you ask why does God not stop this, he didnt create man as a robot, yes sir no sir anything you say sir,

kind regards laura 
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Re: I believe
« Reply #74 on: December 20, 2010, 01:46:20 AM »
Is God to blame for everthing that has ever gone wrong in the world ask yourselves? Just imagine for one minute that man didnt destroy the planet the way he has and things were still the way God made them.  Do you know how the ecosystems work, in perfect balance, everything working together in perfect harmony the way God made it.  Did God create acid rain which kills the plants, did God create pollution, did God create water pollution, is God killing the animals off with potching, does God take a gun in his hand and shoot people, did God create the atomic bomb, did God create drugs? 

Why are you asking this question on an atheist board?  You already know that we don't think your god exists, or that any gods exists.  So why this series of rhetorical questions?  :?


Quote
you ask why does God not stop this, he didnt create man as a robot, yes sir no sir anything you say sir,

This makes no sense as a answer to the above questions.  How would preventing acid rain destroy free will?  How does stopping pollution, poaching, guns, drugs, and atomic bombs turn people into robots?  Your answer just does not make any sense whatsoever. 
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 01:51:16 AM by Aaron123 »
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Offline Bereft_of_Faith

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Re: I believe
« Reply #75 on: December 20, 2010, 02:53:59 AM »
hi

Is God to blame for everthing that has ever gone wrong in the world ask yourselves? Just imagine for one minute that man didnt destroy the planet the way he has and things were still the way God made them.  Do you know how the ecosystems work, in perfect balance, everything working together in perfect harmony the way God made it.   [snipped]

I have to interject here.  The image of perfect balance you cite is due to your perspective living in an interglacial period.  There have been mass extinctions, fire ball earth, snow ball earth, asteroid or comet strikes.  Mankind had survived the last ice age.  Ice ages have proven to be cyclical.  We may be due for another one. 

This balance you see is analogous to someone living in Smalltown USA, and claiming that there is no starvation or war in the world.  But you see TV and movies, and know that that's not true.  You need to learn about the Earth's tumultuous past. 

There are several good TV programs that are both easy and fun to watch, that clearly outline what our planet has been through.  I believe Planet Earth was one of them.  There have been others as well.

Offline frofrodajimmyboy

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Re: I believe
« Reply #76 on: December 20, 2010, 09:11:22 AM »
Is God to blame for everthing that has ever gone wrong in the world ask yourselves?

No, because he doesn't exist.  I don't blame the Fairy of Breaking Stuff when my stuff breaks, so why would I blame an equally imaginary figure when things don't work out on a larger scale?

Quote
Just imagine for one minute that man didnt destroy the planet the way he has and things were still the way God made them.


I wouldn't say we've "destroyed the planet".  Sure, things are different than they were a few centuries ago, but saying we've "destroyed" it all is quite a stretch. 

Quote
Do you know how the ecosystems work, in perfect balance, everything working together in perfect harmony the way God made it.
 

I don't think you know much about the ecosystem; there's nothing close to a "perfect balance".  It's all quite hectic, and from what we know, it always has been.

Quote
there is definiteDid God create acid rain which kills the plants, did God create pollution, did God create water pollution, is God killing the animals off with potching, does God take a gun in his hand and shoot people, did God create the atomic bomb, did God create drugs?

Well, if god existed in the way Christians claim he does, then...  Yeah.  All of those things are a part of his plan. 

Quote
    something to think about who created these things that are distroying lives and destroying the planet, you ask why does God not stop this, he didnt create man as a robot, yes sir no sir anything you say sir,

I don't see how that works with what you said in the quote prior to this one.  If I don't allow my kid access to knives for his safety, am I making him a robot?  If I explain the way the world works and give him advice on how to best maintain it, am I making him a robot? 

Offline Agga

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Re: I believe
« Reply #77 on: December 20, 2010, 09:19:25 AM »
did God create drugs?
Opium. Cocaine. Cannabis. ALCOHOL. Nicotine. Psilocybin. To name but a few.

Yes. God, if he were real, did create drugs.

Quote
something to think about who created these things that are distroying lives and destroying the planet,
So, how does this comment bear on your last question?

Hmm. &)


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Offline Hatter23

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Re: I believe
« Reply #78 on: December 20, 2010, 10:46:08 AM »
did God create drugs?
Opium. Cocaine. Cannabis. ALCOHOL. Nicotine. Psilocybin. To name but a few.

Yes. God, if he were real, did create drugs.

Quote
something to think about who created these things that are distroying lives and destroying the planet,
So, how does this comment bear on your last question?

Hmm. &)


Laura, I command you, in the name of my underpants, WAKE UP!

But isn't beer a sign God loves us and wants us to be happy?  ;)
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline frofrodajimmyboy

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Re: I believe
« Reply #79 on: December 20, 2010, 12:03:19 PM »
But isn't beer a sign God loves us and wants us to be happy?  ;)

Beer harms you despite making you feel good.  It's more a sign that God is an epic prankster
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 12:13:17 PM by frofrodajimmyboy »

Offline Agga

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Re: I believe
« Reply #80 on: December 20, 2010, 12:06:14 PM »
Quote from: modbreak
tsk tsk.

Nothing to add. I just wanted to join in on the quote-nesting.  &)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 05:58:57 PM by Moderator_020 »
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: I believe
« Reply #81 on: December 20, 2010, 03:35:04 PM »
hi

Is God to blame for everthing that has ever gone wrong in the world ask yourselves?

If there were the a god that created everything, was omnipotent, and knew what the outcome of each and every thing he set up in the first place; then yes. Is a parent that hands a 10 year old the keys to the car and a bottle of Jack responsible for the accident that child will get into? Yes. Because it is likely to happen. It is so much worse for said hypothetical god, because he knows it will happen.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Agga

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Re: I believe
« Reply #82 on: December 20, 2010, 06:16:58 PM »
Is a parent that hands a 10 year old the keys to the car and a bottle of Jack responsible for the accident that child will get into? Yes. Because it is likely to happen.
Excellent point. The law would also demand that the parents face some form of punishment / child-neglect charges.

I suppose, if the lawmaker, judge, jury and executioner just happened to be the parents then the law could easily be il-applied. Of course, that'd be corruption.
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Offline laura1

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Re: I believe
« Reply #83 on: December 21, 2010, 06:51:12 AM »
Hi

about the drugs and alcohol thing Ive never picked drugs off trees and drank from a alcholic dam, what i was meaning God made the things in the original non dangerous form man took the things and made them into something else detremental to their health and well being

kind regards laura   
Laura1

Offline Agga

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Re: I believe
« Reply #84 on: December 21, 2010, 06:56:11 AM »
Sorry, Laura. That's not true.

Alcohol (which Jesus himself drank) is naturally occuring, and also man-made. The other drugs I listed are all totally naturally occuring psychoactive drugs, too.

All of those naturally occuring drugs do harm in varying degrees.

I think you should revisit your earlier claim and retract it.
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Offline plethora

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Re: I believe
« Reply #85 on: December 21, 2010, 06:57:12 AM »
Laura, you don't think there are any naturally occurring 'drugs'? There are various types of hallucinogenic fungi (mushrooms) that, eaten in their perfectly natural state, will get you super stoned.

If your god exists he created those didn't he?
The truth doesn't give a shit about our feelings.

Offline plethora

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Re: I believe
« Reply #86 on: December 21, 2010, 08:14:32 AM »
Laura PM'ed me her response to the above post. Really, it should be in the thread so I'll put it here:

Quote from: Laura1
Hi plethora, have you tried the mushrooms yourself, what happened when you tried them?
Quote from: Plethora
Hi Laura,
 
I think this was better asked within the thread at the forum.
 
I have never actually tried those mushrooms myself... but that's irrelevant. My point is, if there is an omnigod he is responsible for everything he created... including the things his creation creates. After all, he already knew what was going to happen anyway.
The truth doesn't give a shit about our feelings.