I believe

[laura1]

This topic has been created from a split.

Hi  I would like to add to the discussion, I am a christian I do believe in God and the Trinity and the Bible, but i do also question, seek answers, dont accept everything and know for a fact that many people who speak on behalf of God do not speak on behalf of God, just cause we cant understand God with our minds and put Him in a box doesnt mean he doesnt exist.  We use cell phones, TV, cars, radios, satelite transmissions all the time, we dont know how they work? do we see the signals going out from the signal towers so our cell to receive the signal? do we see signals going out of our remotes to switch the TV on?  Can an ant understand a human, my cat doesnt understand me, he looks at me as if im crazy when i do aerobics and thinks to himself why dont i sleep instead?  My cat cant understand why i dont climb through the window like he does and go and look for a juicy mouse to eat.

Phillip Yancey is a christian author if you love to read, read his books he also asks so many questions about God, honest questions, questions of the heart.  Every human asks where do i come from? Why am I hear? Where am I going? Is there a God? Is there a Devil? What was before the world, the Bible says the earth was formless and dark, how did the formless dark earth get there before God spoke light and then created the earth more as we know it.  I think I have more questions than you guys, but that doesnt mean i have to not believe in God just cause I cant understand, just cause I cant get a black and white answer all neatly typed out for me delivered to me on a page from Heaven.  I dont understand why babies die, why there are badly deformed babies, one thing I know is God created a perfect world, no sin, no weeds, no distruction, no hatred, no murdering and humans didnt want that way they wanted their way.

God plans to restore all things with a new heaven and new earth and Jesus return i know you think im delusional and believe fairy tales, but anyway ask in your heart where do you think you are going when you die? are you really just nothing more than a bunch of cells doing chemical reactions? where did the chemicals come from? i dont have all the answers but that doesnt mean my conclusion has to be to right God off as a bad joke

lots of love laura   

[Operator_011]

Hi Laura1, welcome to the forum.

I've split this post into its own thread. It's probably best not to revive dead threads, especially when the last post in that thread is from a moderator telling someone else not to revive dead threads. Further, if you make these sorts of claims you'll be expected to support them with evidence. One last thing, if you do not tell us why you believe, then your post amounts to preachng, which is not allowed at WWGHA. I recommend following this link and reading the rules, etiquette guides and FAQ's.

Thank you.


Eleven.

[Str82Hell]

Hai Laura, welcome to the forum.

The red line through your testimonial is that you believe despite the fact that you don't know everything. Many of us don't believe despite they don't know everything.

E.g. since you don't know how the universe came to be, there's no reason not to believe in God (according to you), but according to most atheists, the fact that we don't know how the universe came to be is not an indication to believe in God either.

Theists are quick to say 'Godidit'. Out of body and near death experiences are a good example. When we first became aware of these phenomena, there was no natural explanation for it and theists therefore assumed it was proof for the existence of God (because we could not explain it in a natural way). More sceptical people just said: "we don't have a natural explanation, yet, maybe we will never get a natural explanation, but that is not proof of the supernatural".

Religion however does make claims which are verifiable. It is easy to prove that the Koran or Bible cannot be 100% true in the literal sense and I'm going to assume you're intelligent enough to understand this, so I won't elaborate on this. However, it is not always clear which parts of the Bible should be interpreted literally and which parts have a figurative meaning and not all Christians will agree on it. Should the Genesis creation narrative be interpreted literally, and if yes which parts and which parts not (there are two different, contradicting Genesis narratives)?. If you're going to say that it should be taken literally, it is rather easy to demonstrate that you're wrong. It has been proven that the earth is around 4.2 billion years old and that the universe is around 13.7 billions years old (which still does not exclude the existence of God or God as a creator, but it refutes the Bible's Genesis narrative).

Some things are incorrect though. For example, Exodus tells us that the Israelites lived in the desert for 40 years after leaving Egypt, but there are no archeological traces of a large settlement of Jewish serfs, there are no traces of a longtime inhabitation of the desert between Egypt and Palestina and there are no traces of a Jewish conquest of Canaan. So it did not happen.
Some claims made by the Bible or Christians are also shown to be wrong. Research has shown that there's no statistically significant benefit to prayer. God may answer your prayers or he may not, but if he decides to answer your prayer, he does it in the same rate as helping people who did not pray. So if God's divine plan is already determined, what point is there in praying to God to help you?
From experience we know that the more society advances, the less gods remain. In the past we had gods for thunder (Thor, Zeus), love (Venus/Aphrodite, Amor/Cupid/Eros). Now that we have explained these phenomena in a naturalistic way, there's no need for such gods anymore. It demonstrates us that people believe in God/gods because they don't know everything, not despite they don't know everything.
What questions does the Christian God answer? Might we be able to answer these questions in a natural way in the future? If not, is it correct to assume God exists because we don't know the answer? To the last question, I'd say no.

[Aaron123]

Hello Laura!  Welcome to the fourms.

We use cell phones, TV, cars, radios, satelite transmissions all the time, we dont know how they work? do we see the signals going out from the signal towers so our cell to receive the signal? do we see signals going out of our remotes to switch the TV on?

But people do know how they work, otherwise, we wouldn't have cell phones, cars, etc.  What you meant to say was that you don't know how those things works.  That does not mean others do not.  And even if you don't know, you can easily find out for yourself.  You can look it up online, read a book, talk to an expert, etc.

Can an ant understand a human, my cat doesnt understand me, he looks at me as if im crazy when i do aerobics and thinks to himself why dont i sleep instead?  My cat cant understand why i dont climb through the window like he does and go and look for a juicy mouse to eat.

Your cat had physical contact with you whenever you hold and pet him.  He knows with 100% certainy that you exists.  I don't think this sort of unambiguous situation is comparable with god.

God plans to restore all things with a new heaven and new earth and Jesus return

So what's he waiting for?

i know you think im delusional and believe fairy tales, but anyway ask in your heart where do you think you are going when you die?

Either I'll be buried six feet under or I'll be cremated.  I haven't made my mind up yet which I want.

are you really just nothing more than a bunch of cells doing chemical reactions?

In the strictest sense; yes.  But honestly, I don't care if that is the case.

where did the chemicals come from? i dont have all the answers but that doesnt mean my conclusion has to be to right God off as a bad joke

And this is god-of-the-gaps/wishful thinking.  Just because you find an idea to be more comforting does not make it true.

[velkyn]

Hi  I would like to add to the discussion, I am a christian I do believe in God and the Trinity and the Bible, but i do also question, seek answers, dont accept everything and know for a fact that many people who speak on behalf of God do not speak on behalf of God, just cause we cant understand God with our minds and put Him in a box doesnt mean he doesnt exist.  We use cell phones, TV, cars, radios, satelite transmissions all the time, we dont know how they work? do we see the signals going out from the signal towers so our cell to receive the signal? do we see signals going out of our remotes to switch the TV on?  Can an ant understand a human, my cat doesnt understand me, he looks at me as if im crazy when i do aerobics and thinks to himself why dont i sleep instead?  My cat cant understand why i dont climb through the window like he does and go and look for a juicy mouse to eat.

hello laura.  Your arguments are similar to many we've seen here.  It is common for a Christian to think that those "other" Christians are wrong.  And people do know how technology works.  You may not, but that's simply becasue you are ignorant about the subject.  Trying to use this as an excuse why people don't understand God the "right", aka your way, fails because we are supposedly talking about a beign that could make it self understood if it wanted. 

Phillip Yancey is a christian author if you love to read, read his books he also asks so many questions about God, honest questions, questions of the heart.  Every human asks where do i come from? Why am I hear? Where am I going? Is there a God? Is there a Devil? What was before the world, the Bible says the earth was formless and dark, how did the formless dark earth get there before God spoke light and then created the earth more as we know it.  I think I have more questions than you guys, but that doesnt mean i have to not believe in God just cause I cant understand, just cause I cant get a black and white answer all neatly typed out for me delivered to me on a page from Heaven.  I dont understand why babies die, why there are badly deformed babies, one thing I know is God created a perfect world, no sin, no weeds, no distruction, no hatred, no murdering and humans didnt want that way they wanted their way.

I love to read but I have standards.  PHillip Yancey is just one more apologist who wants to use his particular magic decoder ring.   I suspect you do have mor questions than we do, since most of us are happy with the answer that god simply doesn't exist.  That makes the most sense.  YOu seem to want to believe in god no matter what, which indicates a lack of interest in finding anythign that disagrees with you.  You don't *know* god created anything. You only claim to know it because you've been told a story you have decided to believe.  You are just one more Christian who claims ignorance when convenient, especially if it's about God being a right bastard, and knowledge the same way, if you want to claim that god is ever-so good.   

God plans to restore all things with a new heaven and new earth and Jesus return i know you think im delusional and believe fairy tales, but anyway ask in your heart where do you think you are going when you die? are you really just nothing more than a bunch of cells doing chemical reactions? where did the chemicals come from? i dont have all the answers but that doesnt mean my conclusion has to be to right God off as a bad joke

There we go again with the convenient claims of knowledge.  You are delusion and you do beleive in fairy tales.  And ah, the usual "ask in your heart".  Well, I have and I know I am dead when I die.  NO magical prize at the end of my life.  Your religion plays on the fear of death and the threat of hell. Even if God existed I still would not worship such a being.  You don't have the answers; you dont' even have one. You only have baseless claims constructed to keep your faith alive. 

[Nick]

Welcome Laura,
  Would you send that cat to a firey death for all time if it did not play by your rules?  The cat hardly knows better.  Maybe if you wrote a book for it to read it might know what you want.

  Yes, we are a bunch of chemicals.  That is life.  When it is over it is over.  Enjoy your time here.  All thru history man has tried to live beyond his limits.  An afterlife seems promising and lets us think our love ones are still with us.  We are like all the plants and animals...when it is over it is over.

Oh, and have a good day.

[Historicity]

We use cell phones, TV, cars, radios, satelite transmissions all the time, we dont know how they work? do we see the signals going out from the signal towers so our cell to receive the signal? do we see signals going out of our remotes to switch the TV on? 

Yes, I do, and I can tell you how if I had space.

Try this with your TV remote.  Stand out of line of sight with the TV and point the remote at a white object such as a white wall.  You can get the TV to respond.  From that you can conclude that it's some invisible wavelength of light that still reacts to most white surfaces as if they were visible.   You could conclude that the TV remote uses an invisible color of light.  I just tested it with one of my pairs of 3D glasses, moving further and further back until it started to fail.  It started to fail thru the pale blue lens first and was still 100% thru the dark red lens.  So the invisible color is probably close to the red end of the spectrum.  I had had faith when I had read the the LEDs of remotes were now infrared.  Because of you I have just had experimental evidence.

The TV remote is repeatably testable.   There is not just a statistical correlation above a confidence limit, it's a slam dunk.

My remote got insensitive after a year.  I reasoned out that like any flashlight it gets dimmer as the battery runs down.  I changed it and, yes, that was it.

It's the same with the other items you mention.

I also know how the 4 cycle internal combustion engine works, what the 15 to 1 ratio means and why knock occurs.  Maybe faith and prayer will repair a car engine.  I don't know.  I've always used reasoning.

If you like to read, why don't you read some science books?  And learn the reasoning system behind the science.

[naemhni]

Try this with your TV remote.  Stand out of line of sight with the TV and point the remote at a white object such as a white wall.  You can get the TV to respond.  From that you can conclude that it's some invisible wavelength of light that still reacts to most white surfaces as if they were visible.   You could conclude that the TV remote uses an invisible color of light.  I just tested it with one of my pairs of 3D glasses, moving further and further back until it started to fail.  It started to fail thru the pale blue lens first and was still 100% thru the dark red lens.  So the invisible color is probably close to the red end of the spectrum.  I had had faith when I had read the the LEDs of remotes were now infrared.  Because of you I have just had experimental evidence.

Here's one that's even more fun.  Get your remote, then get a digital camcorder, any old kind will do... digital point-and-shoot cameras typically include a movie mode.  Turn the camera on in movie mode and start recording.  Point your remote at the camera and press a few different buttons.  Stop the recording and play it back.

Now, to the human eye, of course, infrared is invisible -- but it will show up as a bright white light in the video you just made.

[Barracuda]

Welcome to the forums.

Hi  I would like to add to the discussion, I am a christian I do believe in God and the Trinity and the Bible, but i do also question, seek answers,

As you would imagine, I have plenty of objections to Christianity. But I'll just focus on one question for now; Why would God require human sacrifice (Jesus) in order to forgive sins? Doesn't seem to make much sense when you think about it. Wouldn't he just be able to forgive under his own will? Don't see much point, or even relevance, in the whole crucifixion part.

God plans to restore all things with a new heaven and new earth and Jesus return i know you think im delusional and believe fairy tales, but anyway ask in your heart where do you think you are going when you die? are you really just nothing more than a bunch of cells doing chemical reactions? where did the chemicals come from? i dont have all the answers but that doesnt mean my conclusion has to be to right God off as a bad joke

I'll probably just stop being conscious when I die. I'm guessing the experience will be somewhat similar to the billions of years that passed before I was born. And, physically, yes, I think I am "just a bunch of cells and chemical reactions," although obviously it is more meaningful to me than other chemical reactions.

[laura1]

hi, thanks for the replies, are you very happy to just believe you came into existance, born, live, die and thats that, no more, nothing else, no reason, not going anywhere, no purpose, no meaning, we just born, live, die, cease to exist, end of story no more nothing more, there no angles, no devil, no heaven, no hell, no God or Jesus, no spiritual world not even demons or ghosts, what we see is what there is no more? just want to understand.

lots of love laura     

[monkeymind]

hi, thanks for the replies, are you very happy to just believe you came into existance, born, live, die and thats that, no more, nothing else, no reason, not going anywhere, no purpose, no meaning, we just born, live, die, cease to exist, end of story no more nothing more, there no angles, no devil, no heaven, no hell, no God or Jesus, no spiritual world not even demons or ghosts, what we see is what there is no more? just want to understand.

Yes.

[William]

.. no more, nothing else, no reason, not going anywhere, no purpose, no meaning, ...

Laura I would love it if there could be more beyond this life.  But that is wishful thinking.  I have to face reality.

Facing reality with honesty and courage is what atheism is all about for me.  Because there is no comforting lalawoowoo for me I simply HAVE to make my own meaning and purpose in this life.  I cannot operate like an obsequious puppy to some imaginary leader/care-giver outside my body.

It's a big shift in the way I look at life and my relationships with others - the human beings, and the animals, and everything.  It makes me quite angry when I think of how much time and opportunity I wasted on faith and its baggage, not realising that I had to make my life what I want it to be 

[Gaston]

hi, thanks for the replies, are you very happy to just believe you came into existance, born, live, die and thats that, no more, nothing else, no reason, not going anywhere, no purpose, no meaning, we just born, live, die, cease to exist, end of story no more nothing more, there no angles, no devil, no heaven, no hell, no God or Jesus, no spiritual world not even demons or ghosts, what we see is what there is no more? just want to understand.

lots of love laura     

I've always existed... The seemingly only difference now, is that I'm conscious about it...

[naemhni]

angles

You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Str82Hell]

are you very happy to just believe you came into existance, born, live, die and thats that, no more, nothing else, no reason, not going anywhere, no purpose, no meaning, we just born, live, die, cease to exist, end of story no more nothing more, there no angles, no devil, no heaven, no hell, no God or Jesus, no spiritual world not even demons or ghosts, what we see is what there is no more? just want to understand.

First of all, the world is not going to change because I want it to be different.
Yes, I'm happy to exist, to be born, to live. I'd rather not die, but if I have to, that'll be the case and it wouldn't matter either because I wouldn't exist anymore. I don't need to go anywhere anymore, I don't need a reason for existence, a cause would be fine. I give my life purpose and meaning as I see fit. Angles, devils, fairies, gods, Jesus, demons, ghosts and gnomes are not anything I need to live my life the way I want. Agreed, they might be fun, but I think I'm grown out of it. I embrace life like it is and I won't let my view be hindered with fairy tales. Sometimes that may be difficult, but most of the times you're better prepared to react to things happening around you.

[laura1]

Hi, thanks for the reply? how does one get meaning in life, does one then have to work to find satisfaction and purpose or you just happy to just be trodding along?

lots of love
laura 

[plethora]

hi, thanks for the replies, are you very happy to just believe you came into existance, born, live, die and thats that, no more, nothing else, no reason, not going anywhere, no purpose, no meaning, we just born, live, die, cease to exist, end of story no more nothing more, there no angles, no devil, no heaven, no hell, no God or Jesus, no spiritual world not even demons or ghosts, what we see is what there is no more? just want to understand.

lots of love laura     

Yes. I am happy because I am fortunate enough to live for a very brief moment in time. I am happy that I have a chance to experience life, with all its ups and downs.

I wish I could live for a lot longer than I actually will but at least I know that when I die I won't be around to care anyway.

Before you and I were born, we didn't exist. Whatever was happening in the universe, here on earth, before we were born was utterly and completely irrelevant to us because we were not here to give a damn.

When we die, we will return to that state. A stateless state. That comforts me. I may never smile or enjoy another sunset... but I will never suffer again either. I cherish the moments I do have while I am alive.

One can be happy while accepting reality for what it is. There is no need for a fairytale to keep oneself 'happy'. It doesn't really make anyone happier, it just puts a veil over their eyes.

[plethora]

Hi, thanks for the reply? how does one get meaning in life, does one then have to work to find satisfaction and purpose or you just happy to just be trodding along?

We don't get meaning in life... we give meaning to our lives.

We get to assign meaning and significance and value to our lives. We are the authors of our own happiness.

For me, being alive itself means something to me. I have family and friends I love and love me back. I have a wonderful wife and an incredible daughter. I love my job. I love my music and actively play in a band.

My life is full of things I love and happiness. It means something to me and those close to me.

You don't need something or someone supernatural to give you meaning. You are the one holding the paintbrush. You get to paint your own picture of life.

(but no fairytales allowed please  )

[velkyn]

Hi, thanks for the reply? how does one get meaning in life, does one then have to work to find satisfaction and purpose or you just happy to just be trodding along?

lots of love
laura

what a lovely assumption that atheists have no meaning in life.   I sure is does upset most Christians that people who don't agree with them are just as happy or happier than they are.  I have meaning in life from my friends, family, husband, pets, work, good food and good drink. 

I don't think you "want to understand" at all.  You want validation for your myths. You ignore all of our points and then blither on with the usual ignorant Christian assumptions. 

 I think it's rather sad that Christians can't seem to want to do anything unless they get a scooby snack at the end of their lives. 

[plethora]

We have someone asking some sincere questions. Remember many of us were theists previously.

Let's be gentle.

[naemhni]

how does one get meaning in life

We make it for ourselves, or we simply don't have any.  Everyone has different answers for this.  My own view is that life does not have a meaning, it simply is.  For me, it makes no more sense to ask what life's meaning is any more than it does to ask what Neptune's meaning is.  Neptune doesn't have a meaning or a purpose.  It's just there.

does one then have to work to find satisfaction and purpose

Most people do, whether they're religious or not.

or you just happy to just be trodding along?

I personally am not, but that is not because I am an atheist.  I have various personal problems that prevent me from being as happy as other people are, but those problems would be exactly the same if I were a Christian, a Muslim, or a Buddhist.  Atheism has nothing to do with it.

[Aaron123]

Hi, thanks for the reply? how does one get meaning in life,

Everyone gives their own lives meaning, whenever they intend to or not.  However, what their lives actually means to them is dependent on that person.  For some, the meaning of their lives might be to be married, have a family, and spend time with the kids.  For others, being a doctor is what give their lives meaning.  For other still, being a movie director and becoming famous is the meaning to their lives.  Other spend time doing charity works.  For others, life is incomplete without a pet cat or dog.  Others may think racecar driving is needed in their lives.  Which is correct?  In a way, they all are.  Those are all cases of people doing things to make their lives meaningful.  People do this regardless of whenever or not they're religious.

does one then have to work to find satisfaction and purpose

Generaly, that's how the world works.  Satisfaction and purpose tends not to be handed to you on a silver platter.  That's true regardless of whenever or not they're religious.

or you just happy to just be trodding along?

Some people might be.  Others are not.  Some motivate themselves to become doctors, lawyers, go to college, etc.  That's the same for everyone, regardless of whenever they're christian or not.  Religion is a smokescreen; it makes you think magic invisible beings are guiding your life, whereas in actuality, you are the one that guides your own life.

[Avatar Of Belial]

Hi, thanks for the reply? how does one get meaning in life, does one then have to work to find satisfaction and purpose or you just happy to just be trodding along?

Why should you be given meaning just out of the blue? Are you incapable of giving yourself or those around you any meaning, or are you just happy pretending to be a plaything that can be discarded any time your (imaginary) deity wants?

[Barracuda]

hi, thanks for the replies, are you very happy to just believe you came into existance, born, live, die and thats that, no more, nothing else, no reason, not going anywhere, no purpose, no meaning, we just born, live, die, cease to exist, end of story no more nothing more, there no angles, no devil, no heaven, no hell, no God or Jesus, no spiritual world not even demons or ghosts, what we see is what there is no more? just want to understand.

lots of love laura     

Personally, no. I wish there was something after death but I just don't think there is.

[Agga]

Hey, laura.

I've a question for you to ponder.  Why do you think so many of us here were believers and lost our belief?

That's not a loaded question and you don't have to answer it if you don't want to.  I'd be interested in your answer if you feel like offering it, though.

[frofrodajimmyboy]

I find it very disturbing that so many religious people such as yourself seem to be completely unable to see any purpose or enjoyment in life without their religion.  You believe an omni-wizard created and controls everything, yet the idea that YOU can give your life a purpose and live a long happy life is impossible to grasp.  What's so strange about thinking that you can enjoy life and be a good person without their being anything after?

[Agga]

Hey, FFJB.


In my personal experience, using that argument has gotten me far further with theists than any other.

[laura1]

Hi, 

I have read all the replies, Im thinking about the question from Agga that many athiests were christians and believers and then just began to know believe that there is any God and I can see why,it may surprise you that I can see your point of view, im not here to hammer and push any one to believe what I believe and how I believe.

Im sure many many of you have been badly disappointed and hurt and let down by the church, by clergy, by sermons that didnt add up, Ive seen it all, Ive been in a church where suppossedly the Holy Spirit was moving and people were falling under the spirit and laying on the floor etc only years later i wanted to understand and read that it was not the Holy Spirit but something else, Ive seen the things that go on, im not ignorant to the faults and the jokes of the church.  I do believe however many people claim to speak on behalf of God and acturally dont speak on behalf of God, many things that go on can put people off God for sure.  Why did God want a sacrifice for sin and then have to send Jesus to die, was there not another way to deal with sin.  I agree that one needs to find purpose and meaning in life and make the most of your life, but we can also allow for God in our lives if we wanted to and have a balance.

lots of love laura       

[kin hell]

Hi, 

 I agree that one needs to find purpose and meaning in life and make the most of your life, but we can also allow for God in our lives if we wanted to and have a balance.

lots of love laura       

laura  those of us here who are atheists don't believe there is a god  so

but we can also allow for God in our lives if we wanted to and have a balance.

.........is a pretty damn stupid suggestion, and insulting at the same time implying we are without balance.

Perhaps you need to think about what you are actually writing, and what it actually means before you hit the post button, otherwise you are going to continue posting inane vacuous bubblehead when really you may be more intelligent than that.

I guarantee you, if you continue without thought, to just regurgitate the pap that you have been fed , your stay here will be somewhat rocky as our tolerance levels are relatively low towards the stupid, and or the rude.

I hope you are neither of these, and it is just your posts sofar that have been.