Author Topic: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees  (Read 27798 times)

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Online Azdgari

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #522 on: August 12, 2011, 01:33:14 PM »
John 3:16, that's not really a circle, even if one were to grant its assumptions.
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Offline Omen

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #523 on: August 12, 2011, 01:35:42 PM »
John 3:16, that's not really a circle, even if one were to grant its assumptions.

Notice the irony, its not to acknowledge that theism is based on circular premises, its to accuse the other position of the same.  Is this his tacit admission that he knows exactly how irrational and circular it is?
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #524 on: August 12, 2011, 01:37:33 PM »
CIRCLE OF ATHEISM
there is no god because there is no objective evidence
ok then do you disbelieve EVERYTHING if there is no objective evidence?
Essentially yes.  I do not believe in leprechauns, or devas, or magical coyotes, etc.  Do you?  Why or why not?
Quote
no, there are certain things we don't know yet
then why do you disbelieve God?
Because it’s had millennia to demonstrate it exists.  Because believers claim its existence and not come up with a scrap of evidence themselves.  How long should one look for evidence for something, John?  I have prayed for it to reveal itself to me just like Thomas who doubted, when I doubted.  Again, no evidence.  Let me ask you, why do you disbelieve in Vishnu?  Why do you not admit that mighty Sekhmet, eye of Ra, lady of healing, is real? 
Quote
because there is no objective evidence
Can somebody break this circle of atheism for me?

Oh you mean the above strawman nonsense? Of course. 
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Online Azdgari

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #525 on: August 12, 2011, 01:38:08 PM »
Notice the irony, its not to acknowledge that theism is based on circular premises, its to accuse the other position of the same.  Is this his tacit admission that he knows exactly how irrational and circular it is?

I think so.  The honest thing at this point would be for him to actively defend circular reasoning as a valid thing to do, since that is clearly his position.
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Offline Morgan

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #526 on: August 12, 2011, 02:02:22 PM »
Was the "circle of atheism"...thing a response to the image I posted? If yes, then I rank it just a little above Bad Troll. If you really want to respond to it, it's probably best not to use more strawmen than a whole corn field.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #527 on: August 12, 2011, 02:25:39 PM »
CIRCLE OF ATHEISM


there is no god because there is no objective evidence

ok then do you disbelieve EVERYTHING if there is no objective evidence?

no, there are certain things we don't know yet

then why do you disbelieve God?

because there is no objective evidence

Can somebody break this circle of atheism for me?

That is being an Atheist and an Agnostic. Sometimes called "weak Atheism." It is a fully logical position. There is no circle to break as Theism or Atheism is about belief, Gnosticism or Agnoticism is about Knowledge. I fully accept the possiblity of a god, however whenever someone attempt to define them, it is readily apparent that their assertations are baseless and without objective evidence. The define out of appeals to tradition and out of self projection, not through falsifiable claims. This is very similar to all claims about the supernatural, and the deities of other religions, and the claims of people who later admit to being charletans.

I reject the Judeo-Christian model of god for the same reason I reject the Grecko-Roman model of gods, they have no evidence AND make claims that conflict with the way the world appears to work.


An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #528 on: August 12, 2011, 02:35:01 PM »
Still waiting John

Your definition of 'Christian' is narrower than "Christ died for our Sins?"  Yes or No.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #529 on: August 12, 2011, 02:37:37 PM »
John 3:16, that's not really a circle, even if one were to grant its assumptions.

Notice the irony, its not to acknowledge that theism is based on circular premises, its to accuse the other position of the same.  Is this his tacit admission that he knows exactly how irrational and circular it is?

It is actually a fallacy, Tu Quoque. Use of fallacies are always an admission of a flaw in reasoning.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline jtp56

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #530 on: August 12, 2011, 04:55:49 PM »
I'm breaking the thread here, but, I want to answer the basic question of "Why won't God heal amputees?"  The answer is: we can't know.  Jesus himself healed only a few in his home town.  When mocked during his crucifixion: "If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself, and one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us."  Jesus Himself did not answer them.  How can we today answer you?

The malefactors is a great illustration of the two types of people in the world.  Those who scream "If thou be Christ, save thyself and us" or "Why won't God heal amputees?"  and those who say unto Jesus, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom" whom Jesus did answer: "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." 

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #531 on: August 12, 2011, 05:12:57 PM »
Failing to think critically is good.

riiiiight. 
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #532 on: August 12, 2011, 05:40:00 PM »
I'm breaking the thread here, but, I want to answer the basic question of "Why won't God heal amputees?"  The answer is: we can't know.  Jesus himself healed only a few in his home town.  When mocked during his crucifixion: "If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself, and one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us."  Jesus Himself did not answer them.  How can we today answer you?

One possible answer is that God isn't real.  Right?  That would explain why God doesn't heal amputees.  It would also explain why prayer doesn't work.  And why you can't find any hard evidence for God.  It explains everything pretty well.   

The malefactors is a great illustration of the two types of people in the world.  Those who scream "If thou be Christ, save thyself and us" or "Why won't God heal amputees?"  and those who say unto Jesus, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom" whom Jesus did answer: "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

You say this almost as if you are proud to be in the second group lol. 

The difference is between those who look for evidence for their beliefs, and those who will believe anything they're told.   
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #533 on: August 13, 2011, 01:00:13 AM »
CIRCLE OF ATHEISM
there is no god because there is no objective evidence
ok then do you disbelieve EVERYTHING if there is no objective evidence?

no, there are certain things we don't know yet
then why do you disbelieve God?

because there is no objective evidence

Perhaps if you could suggest something I believe in (as opposed to provisionally accepting for convenience) then your assmptions MIGHT work.  But the point you are STILL failing to grasp is that your god is not the only one being offered.

As Hal and I have been ashing for a couple days now:

It's why the "objective evidence" answer crops up so often.  Because without it, there IS no way of choosing between your faith, and the faith of that guy over there, or that guy over there.

To repeat Hal's question:
Is the lack of "objective evidence" a good reason to disbelieve in Christianity?
If not, why not?

When there is NO objective evidence for any particular god - and there are two (hundred thousand) competing, contradictory, and mutually exclusive claims that THIS god is the one......for what reason should the unbeliever choose YOUR particular god?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Astreja

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #534 on: August 13, 2011, 01:18:05 AM »
Jesus himself healed only a few in his home town.

JTP, I don't think "Jesus" actually healed anybody. I'm about 99.999...% sure that the Jesus described in the Bible is heavily fictionalized, although perhaps the character was based on one or more real people of that era.
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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #535 on: August 13, 2011, 01:21:56 AM »
CIRCLE OF ATHEISM

there is no god because there is no objective evidence

John, that's only circular reasoning if you're talking about "strong" (gnostic) atheism.  Most of us here are "weak" (agnostic) atheists, and I would word your phrase as:

I see no objective evidence, so I have no compelling reason to believe.
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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #536 on: August 13, 2011, 09:07:00 AM »
In response to JeffTP "One possible answer is that God isn't real.  Right?"

Maybe dark matter isn't real, right?

Or I can believe scientists who finally, finally, finally, have got if figured out after all the changes in their"facts" and theories and the evidence (generally ignored) contradicting an old earth.  Secular views of origins is always changing.  I don't think it's even fair to say "most scientists agree" any more; because there are so many theories or as if physical laws and facts were established by some kind of poll.  You won't consider intelligent design simply because in your intelligent minds it can't be, that's not critical thinking.

The evidence you use to try to convince yourself that there was no intelligent designer is in itself the evidence that glaringly says there is an intelligent designer.  Especially now that we know that in DNA is code, like a computer program, information.  Information doesn't come from nothing.  How did that evolve?  I just happen to believe that Jesus is who He said He is.   

Whats convenient for people who keep telling us their critical thinkers and so smart.  Your origins theories are what ever they need to be. Similar to the charges you level against Christians.


Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #537 on: August 13, 2011, 09:18:14 AM »
<snip>

The Poe is strong in this one...
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #538 on: August 13, 2011, 12:00:48 PM »
You didn't answer the question.  Let me try again.  Do be so kind as to answer it truthfully... Go ahead, it won't hurt you.  It might even feel good to tell the truth.  Try it out. 

If God isn't real, would that explain why God doesn't heal amputees? 

Maybe dark matter isn't real, right?

Yes.  That's possible.

Or I can believe scientists who finally, finally, finally, have got if figured out after all the changes in their"facts" and theories and the evidence (generally ignored) contradicting an old earth. 

Facts don't change.  Theories change when new facts are presented that undermine the theories.  Do you understand what a scientific theory is in contrast to what a fact is? 

Secular views of origins is always changing.

As new facts arise, rightfully so.  If you form the opinion that your neighbor stole your car, and one day you see your brother driving it down the street, that is a new fact that changes your original theory that your neighbor stole your car.  That's how science works.  New information must be incorporated.  The theories that are the most well supported by all the facts are the ones that survive through time.  It is not a weakness as you seem to think it is.  It is a strength.  It would be foolish to stick with a theory that no longer explains how all the facts fit together. 

I don't think it's even fair to say "most scientists agree" any more; because there are so many theories or as if physical laws and facts were established by some kind of poll. 

You really don't understand science much, do you? 

You won't consider intelligent design simply because in your intelligent minds it can't be, that's not critical thinking.

Bullshit.  I will consider intelligent design when I see evidence for it that seems stronger than the evidence that it is not intelligently designed.  Just as I will consider dark matter when we have evidence for it; which there now seems to be.  Just like I will consider an old earth when there is evidence for it, which we have a TON of.  There is no evidence for a young earth.  That's completely retarded.

I have nothing against the notion that the universe was created by god.  It's not a personal thing.  There is just no reason to believe it was, so I reject it.  Just like I reject the notion that the sun revolves around the earth.  That could be true, but there is no reason anymore to believe it does.  That's the thing with you Christians.  You think we have something personal against the possibility of god.  It's completely wrong.  I don't care if there is a god or not.  I just want to know if there is.  And if there is no reason to believe there is, then I'm going to reject it.  So I reject it. 

The evidence you use to try to convince yourself that there was no intelligent designer is in itself the evidence that glaringly says there is an intelligent designer. 

What? 

Especially now that we know that in DNA is code, like a computer program, information.  Information doesn't come from nothing.  How did that evolve?  I just happen to believe that Jesus is who He said He is.   

More idiocy.  We don't know how DNA got it's start yet.  But make no mistake... once it got it's start, it evolved. And it continues to evolve.  That isn't in dispute anymore.  But to say it could ONLY come from the CHRISTIAN God who makes absolutely no claim to this at all in the bible is beyond stupid.  You do realize, jtp, that just because we don't fully know how DNA got it's start, that doesn't mean you can throw in the Christian God as if there are no other alternatives, right?  You Christians never seem to get this one.  Just because we don't know yet, doesn't mean you get to declare victory.  You still haven't proven that it came from your God yet.  You may ask for evidence of where DNA came from, and I can say "It started by natural processes", and I can ask you the same thing, and you can say "It started through God", but this moves us nowhere because neither of us can fully PROVE our stance yet.  Unfortunately for you, however, scientists are getting closer by the day to figuring it out, while you and your religious cohorts bury your fingers in your ears and say LA LA LA LA I'm not listening to you LA LA LA LA. 

Where in the bible does it say "God set forth DNA upon the world?  Please show it.  I'd like to see that passage.  Better yet, forget the bible.  I don't believe a word of it anyway.   Where is your real world evidence that God started DNA?  This I'd like to see.  And when you realize you don't have it, at least have the guts to admit it.  I have the guts to tell you that I don't know how DNA got it's start.  But to assume it could ONLY have come from a supernatural source is beyond stupid.  It's a process that we don't know yet. 

Tell you what though... if science looks deep into the origins of DNA, and at the very heart of all strands of DNA, they find a "God code", which they openly say could only be explained by the work of the Christian God, then I will be forced to admit you are right.  Would you do the same when science discovers how DNA began through natural sources?  I doubt it.  They are getting closer every day. 

I'm sorry you believe that Jesus is who he said he is.  This is the year 2011.  Jesus is a fairy tale.  Grow up. 

Whats convenient for people who keep telling us their critical thinkers and so smart.  Your origins theories are what ever they need to be. Similar to the charges you level against Christians.

Our origin theories are based on evidence and research.  They change as new evidence dictates they should change.  Your origin theories come from an old book that (roughly translated) says "poof, Goddidit".  I'm going with the first one.  It seems to work REALLY well for everything else in the world, whereas your book has failed for centuries. 

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #539 on: August 13, 2011, 01:46:22 PM »
Seems pretty clear to me from this discussion: you can reason your way out of religion, but you can't reason your way into it. Religion has no lab section.

That is what I figured out after a childhood spent in a strict fundamentalist JW home. We were taught the questions and the answers by rote memory: "Did man get here by evolution or by creation--creation." The JW literature even comes complete with the questions and printed answers for easy memorization.

When I asked how we knew that creation was the right answer, I was referred back to the bible and the JW literature. When I asked how we knew all that stuff was true, I was told it was true because it comes from god. When I asked how we knew it came from god, they said, well because it says so in the bible. More questions meant I got funny looks (or angry looks) and knew I was in trouble, so I shut up.

With religion you have to, sooner or later, shut the eff up and just believe. They can't actually show you that it is true. They can't do lecture-demonstration. There is no demonstration, only the lecture part. There is no lab where they show you how what they are saying is true.

If prayer, for example, really worked, every church would have a prayer lab where they could show you how god works his miracles through the right kinds of prayer, and where they could show you how to do it correctly. You would know you were doing it right because the prayer would be answered. There would be proof. Miracles galore. As it is now, religious people can only tell you after the fact that you did not pray the right way because your prayer was not answered, or that maybe god did not want to answer it. And no miracles. Ever.
 
If the prayer (non-miracle type only-- no amputees need apply) was answered, then of course you were praying the right way that time, or god decided to answer it, that time. No guarantees for next time, though.  (They prayed for rain in Texas, right? I guess out of all those millions of people, not one was praying right. Or god wants Texas to burn.)

Can you imagine if science worked that way, that your car or computer or antibiotic only worked as randomly as religion supposedly does and miracles happened all the time? If one day germs caused the flu and the next day it was a curse from the woman next door that caused the flu, and the next day the flu does not exist anymore. One day your microwave cooks the food and the next day it flies around the room. One day you open your fridge and a live baby elephant pops out and then the fruit juice explodes and burns down your house.[1]

Once you start using reason, you can't be uncritically religious anymore. You start asking real questions and don't accept the pat knee-jerk answers anymore. And when the answers don't cut it, you realize that "there is no there there".

That is why reason and logic and science are so threatening to [some] religious people. You just can't have random people running around questioning things and demanding real world answers. They might realize that the drought in Texas has a scientific explanation that has nothing to do with god. And if they realize that, they might actually apply science and solve the problem. Just like people have used science to solve a lot of other problems, without needing prayer or god. And where would god be then? :?
 1. Actually it would not even be that exciting. The microwave would not work. Ever. And then one day it would explode and kill everyone. There is no way in hell we would depend on science for anything if it worked as well as religion!
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 01:50:21 PM by nogodsforme »
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #540 on: August 13, 2011, 08:21:48 PM »
In response to JeffTP "One possible answer is that God isn't real.  Right?"

Maybe dark matter isn't real, right?

Or I can believe scientists who finally, finally, finally, have got if figured out after all the changes in their"facts" and theories and the evidence (generally ignored) contradicting an old earth.  Secular views of origins is always changing.  I don't think it's even fair to say "most scientists agree" any more; because there are so many theories or as if physical laws and facts were established by some kind of poll.  You won't consider intelligent design simply because in your intelligent minds it can't be, that's not critical thinking.

The evidence you use to try to convince yourself that there was no intelligent designer is in itself the evidence that glaringly says there is an intelligent designer.  Especially now that we know that in DNA is code, like a computer program, information.  Information doesn't come from nothing.  How did that evolve?  I just happen to believe that Jesus is who He said He is.   

Whats convenient for people who keep telling us their critical thinkers and so smart.  Your origins theories are what ever they need to be. Similar to the charges you level against Christians.
How is it you dismiss other Gods that people in modern society still believe in? they all have the same evidence ZERO
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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #541 on: August 14, 2011, 02:05:30 AM »
The evidence you use to try to convince yourself that there was no intelligent designer is in itself the evidence that glaringly says there is an intelligent designer.  Especially now that we know that in DNA is code, like a computer program, information.  Information doesn't come from nothing.  How did that evolve?

I think you've got it backwards, JTP.  There is an illusion of "information" in DNA because certain sequences of nucleotides create fairly consistent results.  (I say "fairly" consistent because there is a probabilistic mechanism that can result in either trait expression or trait suppression, depending on the chemical environment.)

We -- Humans and other living entities on this planet -- appear to be the "creation" of mindless chemical processes.  There is no inherent value in having two arms, two legs, one nose, five digits on each hand, and so on; that's just the way we happened to turn out after many, many years of evolution.  If we had 2 heads, 3 stomachs and had the ability to see microwave radiation and hear the colour red, it would be equally valid.
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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #542 on: August 14, 2011, 12:47:34 PM »

The evidence you use to try to convince yourself that there was no intelligent designer is in itself the evidence that glaringly says there is an intelligent designer.  Especially now that we know that in DNA is code, like a computer program, information.  Information doesn't come from nothing.  How did that evolve?  I just happen to believe that Jesus is who He said He is.   


If this god is some all-powerful computer programmer he has done a shitty job of programming. It's like here we are, god works for Microsoft, and we get the blue screen of death. Pow! We're fucked and need to reboot. Possibly installing some updates with fix the problem. Maybe not. Who knows, but it's worth a shot. Here's this computer program, written with the aid of some compiler to translate it into machine language, that has come from probably C++. which is a variation of C, or evolved from C if you will. Now we have C# which evolved from C++. Computers typically use binary, though Base-10 is also a possibility. Both of which use mathematical expressions and algorithms in their computations to execute a computer programs, and both of which are a part of nature and not the creation of some god-like being, but the results that were seen and observed and some brainy geek wondered how he/she could harness what he/she saw and use it and change it into something useful for us to browse the web and head over to WWGHA.

Information does come from "nothing" when you think of information in the mathematical sense - and that's what a computer program is when it all boils down. No one sat down and said 2+2 MUST equal 4. It's just natural to say that when you add two things to two things you have a group of four things. It's just natural to think that, and that will never change. Information processing does change. We have 64 BIT processors which out preforms 32 bit processors, and we have IPv6 which out preforms IPv4, (both of which have evolved from their previous state) but at the end it all breaks down into computer language anyways. The technology has changed but only because it has evolved to become something better than it once was. But this is all the work of a group of men and woman, and their change doesn't come without the help of some natural processes - or mathematics, if you will.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 12:52:09 PM by Emily »
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #543 on: August 14, 2011, 02:20:40 PM »

ok then do you disbelieve EVERYTHING if there is no objective evidence?

Can somebody break this circle of atheism for me?
I may be able to if you give an example of something an atheist might believe in for which there is no objective evidence.

Could you do that please?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline One Above All

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #544 on: August 14, 2011, 03:04:41 PM »
I may be able to if you give an example of something an atheist might believe in for which there is no objective evidence.

Could you do that please?

Expect something related to emotions.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline 54East

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #545 on: August 14, 2011, 03:43:48 PM »
Does anyone know of an amputee who has asked God to make his/her limb grow back?

I am having so much trouble responding to the posts because I can't seem to get the hang of copying a portion of a post and responding. :-\

Are most atheists as rude as so many of the posters on this forum?  Or is it the forum's anonymity that makes it easy to belittle others?  Maybe it is just because we cannot communicate our tone of voice very effectively through computer text?  Or maybe it is people who are weak in their personal lives but OH MY they can be outspoken on the internet?  Or possibly ALL forums are full of vocal people wanting to make themselves heard, and I have just not been on forums much?

Not all Christians are like the few vocal (can I say extremists) that are on the news.  We don't believe in bombing abortion clinics or protesting outside the church service of a soldier killed at war.  Jesus did not even address homosexuality.  He was a friend to all including women, children, prostitutes, thieves, liars.  Most Christians I know are not extremists or even very vocal about their faith.  They believe in God and His Son Jesus the Christ.  They believe in Heaven and hell.  In fact, most Christians I know would not bemoan a life of Christian living if, when they died, they found out there was no God and they were slipping into a big black hole of nothingness.  Living a Christian life is fulfilling and a joy--no regrets.  Of course if non-believers end up at the portal of death and find out there IS a GOD, well, I would expect there might be a few regrets (no scientific proof of regrets, just my theory).

I have to agree with the concept that "proof" in science changes.  New evidence?  That did not change the truth.  The world was always round even when people thought it was flat.  Nothing changed except that Christopher didn't fall off when he went sailing.  Then man reconsidered and decided the new truth was that the world was round.  God is not a myth because he didn't answer your prayers or because He doesn't act like you think He should.  "If God is real, why do people suffer?  If He loves people, why are children molested and people murdered and children die?"  If we as finite people with limited knowledge cannot understand how other finite people with limited knowledge behave, how could we even assume we understand how God works?

My daughter wants to go to Wal-Mart, so I have to go since she can't drive.  I'll get back to you. I am getting such an education about atheists here but I have to question if this is really typical of the majority.



Online Emily

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #546 on: August 14, 2011, 03:52:01 PM »
Does anyone know of an amputee who has asked God to make his/her limb grow back?

I don't. You missed the point of the question, huh?

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I am having so much trouble responding to the posts because I can't seem to get the hang of copying a portion of a post and responding. :-\

It's not that hard. Try the quote function. Test it in the test area. Really, it's not that hard to do. There's even a nifty quoting tutorial that'll help you out.

« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 03:59:17 PM by Emily »
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #547 on: August 14, 2011, 04:01:04 PM »
In fact, most Christians I know would not bemoan a life of Christian living if, when they died, they found out there was no God and they were slipping into a big black hole of nothingness. 

That would be because they'll have no awareness of anything after death.  So of course they wouldn't "bemoan" it.


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Living a Christian life is fulfilling and a joy--no regrets.  Of course if non-believers end up at the portal of death and find out there IS a GOD, well, I would expect there might be a few regrets (no scientific proof of regrets, just my theory).

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but you've just slipped in Pascal's WagerWiki here.


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God is not a myth because he didn't answer your prayers or because He doesn't act like you think He should.  "If God is real, why do people suffer?  If He loves people, why are children molested and people murdered and children die?"  If we as finite people with limited knowledge cannot understand how other finite people with limited knowledge behave, how could we even assume we understand how God works?

As I've asked others before, what's the difference between a god that doesn't answer prayer, and a god that doesn't exist at all?  If god allows suffering, allows child molestation and murder(and is aware of every case of such), then what good is prayer?  Like many others, you're not demostrating how god is any different than your imaginary friend.
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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #548 on: August 14, 2011, 04:08:56 PM »
Does anyone know of an amputee who has asked God to make his/her limb grow back?

Not specifically, no, but I don't doubt that it's happened.  People pray for absurd results all the time.

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I am having so much trouble responding to the posts because I can't seem to get the hang of copying a portion of a post and responding. :-\

It does take a little practice.  There's a test area you can use if you feel the need.

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Are most atheists as rude as so many of the posters on this forum?

There are atheists of a number of different stripes.  For my own part, I try to use a more sympathetic voice because I have found (after some "experimentation", as it were) that that approach suits me better.  Others prefer to be more, ah, "direct".

In any event, I would ask that you try to keep things in perspective.  Atheists may sometimes belittle and ridicule you for your beliefs, and you no doubt find that annoying.  However, Christians are forever stalking us, vandalizing our property, and making death threats against us.  In my view, we have the short end of the stick; do you disagree?

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Or is it the forum's anonymity that makes it easy to belittle others?

Not sure how long you've been using the Internet, but I'll let you in on a little secret: that's not specific to any Internet forum.  I once had someone call me a "fucking moron" because I had never heard of Socotra Island.  It's par for the course.  If you intend to continue participating in discussion forums, you would do well to develop a thicker skin.

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Maybe it is just because we cannot communicate our tone of voice very effectively through computer text?  Or maybe it is people who are weak in their personal lives but OH MY they can be outspoken on the internet?  Or possibly ALL forums are full of vocal people wanting to make themselves heard, and I have just not been on forums much?

Any or all of these are also possibilities.

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Not all Christians are like the few vocal (can I say extremists) that are on the news.

Of course they're not.  Nor do all atheists -- or even most, really -- fit the stereotype that so many people have of us, either.

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In fact, most Christians I know would not bemoan a life of Christian living if, when they died, they found out there was no God and they were slipping into a big black hole of nothingness.  Living a Christian life is fulfilling and a joy--no regrets.  Of course if non-believers end up at the portal of death and find out there IS a GOD, well, I would expect there might be a few regrets (no scientific proof of regrets, just my theory).

We get this one about once or twice a week.  It's called Pascal's Wager.  Please either google it and learn about its flaws for yourself, or wait a few hours while some of the regulars here explain it to you.  I'd do it myself, but I'm relaxing with a "Law and Order" DVD from Netflix this evening and can't be bothered.  (I really do need to type up something to copy and paste for that, though.)

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I have to agree with the concept that "proof" in science changes.  New evidence?  That did not change the truth.  The world was always round even when people thought it was flat.  Nothing changed except that Christopher didn't fall off when he went sailing.  Then man reconsidered and decided the new truth was that the world was round.

Actually, man knew for quite some time before that that the earth was round, but regardless, yes, that's more or less how science works.  Not seeing your point here, though?

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God is not a myth because he didn't answer your prayers or because He doesn't act like you think He should.

Actually, it's more that he doesn't answer prayers that way Jesus said he would in scripture, which is a different matter.  Try comparing these two statements:

1)  "I promise that I will immediately give one million dollars to any Victoria's Secret model who kisses me, anytime, regardless of the circumstances."

2)  "If a Victoria's Secret model ever kisses me, I might give her a million dollars right away, or I might give it to her in five years, or I might not give it to her at all.  It's my own choice, and after having been kissed by one, I will keep my choice secret and never tell anyone what it is."

You are apparently trying to claim that Yahweh is more like door number two.  Unfortunately, scripture says that he's behind door number one.

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"If God is real, why do people suffer?  If He loves people, why are children molested and people murdered and children die?"  If we as finite people with limited knowledge cannot understand how other finite people with limited knowledge behave, how could we even assume we understand how God works?

This is the logical fallacy known as "argument from ignorance".

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My daughter wants to go to Wal-Mart, so I have to go since she can't drive.  I'll get back to you.

I hope your shopping goes well.

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I am getting such an education about atheists here but I have to question if this is really typical of the majority.

The people you are engaging here aren't just atheists.  They're atheists who are concerned enough about the issue to be taking the time and trouble to talk about their views.  That being the case, you are quite naturally going to find people who are passionate.  People who are not passionate would not be participating.
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #549 on: August 14, 2011, 04:18:05 PM »
Does anyone know of an amputee who has asked God to make his/her limb grow back?

Not personally.  I would think they wouldn't do that.  And the reason is because deep down inside, they know God isn't there.

Are most atheists as rude as so many of the posters on this forum?  Or is it the forum's anonymity that makes it easy to belittle others?  Maybe it is just because we cannot communicate our tone of voice very effectively through computer text?  Or maybe it is people who are weak in their personal lives but OH MY they can be outspoken on the internet?  Or possibly ALL forums are full of vocal people wanting to make themselves heard, and I have just not been on forums much?

This is a common complaint, and it is not surprising.  When faced with superior arguments, a theist will often resort to complaining about the tone instead of sticking to the arguments. I feel that it's a telltale sign that they are outmatched logically, so they try to score points another way.  I could see myself doing that when faced with a superior argument that I happen to disagree with. 

Not all Christians are like the few vocal (can I say extremists) that are on the news.  We don't believe in bombing abortion clinics or protesting outside the church service of a soldier killed at war.

No, but you certainly don't rise up against them.  But the problem is that you ask for us to respect your beliefs, and that same respect is also demanded by the people who bomb abortion clinics and protest soldiers killed at war.  You all want to be respected.  What you do not understand is that your religion doesn't make you a good person.  You are a good person despite your religion. 

Jesus did not even address homosexuality.  He was a friend to all including women, children, prostitutes, thieves, liars.

I'm not sure what your point is.  Anyone can be a friend to all of those.  You don't have to be the son of God to understand human decency. 

Most Christians I know are not extremists or even very vocal about their faith.  They believe in God and His Son Jesus the Christ.  They believe in Heaven and hell.

But those beliefs come with baggage, 54East.  If you believe in Go and his son, then you reject most of what science can tell you about the world.  And you believe that Heavens purpose is to reward, and that hell is to punish... and the punishment is for us.  You probably have no concept of how it feels to be persecuted for what you think, simply because you're not as deluded as your neighbor. 

In fact, most Christians I know would not bemoan a life of Christian living if, when they died, they found out there was no God and they were slipping into a big black hole of nothingness.  Living a Christian life is fulfilling and a joy--no regrets. 

And it's a lie.  Some of us respect the truth.  If you want to live your lie, that's fine.  Keep it private.  But Christianity as a whole does not do that.  You may have individuals that do, but as a whole, that's not how it works.

Of course if nonbelievers end up at the portal of death and find out there IS a GOD, well, I would expect there might be a few regrets (no scientific proof of regrets, just my theory).

And if you found out that there is a God, and it's Allah, then you're screwed too.  At least an atheist can stand tall saying they lived a life in respect to the evidence that life gave them. 

I have to agree with the concept that "proof" in science changes.  New evidence?  That did not change the truth.  The world was always round even when people thought it was flat. 

And people have believed in God for a long time, even though there isn't one.

God is not a myth because he didn't answer your prayers or because He doesn't act like you think He should. 

Those are just 2 reasons that lead to the notion that the Christian God doesn't exist.  When you add up the other 50 million reasons to think the Christian God doesn't exist, it provides a rock solid case.

"If God is real, why do people suffer?  If He loves people, why are children molested and people murdered and children die?"  If we as finite people with limited knowledge cannot understand how other finite people with limited knowledge behave, how could we even assume we understand how God works?


If God doesn't exist, we fully understand why people suffer.  That's the difference between you and us.  God just creates a question mark in terms of suffering.  Atheism answers it fully.  We suffer because we are an evolved species of social animal, trying to exist on an often dangerous planet, and we are susceptible to the world as it presents itself to us.  In that respect, sometimes people will suffer, and sometimes people will thrive.  It explains both quite well, does it not?  Your answer is... "God is mysterious"?  That's not even helpful. 

My daughter wants to go to Wal-Mart, so I have to go since she can't drive.  I'll get back to you. I am getting such an education about atheists here but I have to question if this is really typical of the majority.

When it comes to this argument, you have to understand something.  You are new to this.  You have no clue how many theists come here and bash us, and call us terrible things, and present horrible arguments.  After a while, you grow a thicker skin.  You acclimate to it, because the nature of internet forum discussions can be brutal.  What you probably also don't understand is that while you think our forum might be semi-hostile toward you, try being an atheist and knowing that we are the most hated subgroup in the world... for no reason whatsoever. 

A piece of advice for you.  If you see something as hostile toward you, try to understand that just because someone disagrees with you, that doesn't mean they are intentionally being mean to you.  It might just be that you don't like it when people simply accept what you say.  One last thing..

An arguments validity does not change based on how it is presented.  You can choose to be offended at anything you want, but as I've said to so many people like you before... If I tell you 2 + fucking 2 = fucking 4 is the same argument as 2 + 2 = 4 happy, smiley face.  Ignore the attitude behind it, and listen to the arguments.  You may learn something. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #550 on: August 14, 2011, 04:27:54 PM »
54 East,

You reminded me of a joke.

One day at the Vatican, a mop bucket of water was spilled on the chapel floor. As the custodian bent down to to clean it up, he whooped loudly " the water has healed my crippled back! A woman nearby heard this and rushed to put some of the puddled water on her eyes. She screamed "I can see!! my vision is now 20/20!"  a double amputee in a wheel chair whirled down the Isle until he rolled right through the puddle. Everyone could hear the excitement in his voice as he screamed, " I've got new wheels!, I've got NEW WHEELS!!!"
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