Author Topic: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees  (Read 24559 times)

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Offline peace

I am a Christian. I respect your ideas and beliefs as your own and am not trying to convince or  convert anyone away from their own ideas and opinions. I have come to this forum in peace believing that all intelligent people can discuss anything peacefully because of their intellectual ability to review information presented to them and consider it. I am offering my opinion for your consideration. It occurs to me that maybe amputees are in a state of existence that is not broken in any way and thus no healing is necessary. The world is full of people who come in a wide variety of physical presentation. I think we focus on the more obvious distinctions of race, sex, age, height, and also things defined as physical abilities and disabilities to our own detriment. As a Christian my opinion is that all are created in the image of God (Genesis 1:26 and 1:27 are my biblical reference) and with the population of the world in the billions that would mean a very wide variety of images. I think we live in a world(dominated by mass media) that focuses on very obvious things like what body type we may have, what car we may drive etc. But I think we would all benefit by relating to others based on who they are as an individual instead of what they look like. I have no intention to minimize anyone's physical or life circumstances in any way. I believe everyone should be treated equally. I noticed a lot of comments that suggested an uncaring or unresponsive God. So I just wanted to make a suggestion that might present a different perspective.

Peace

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2010, 06:53:51 AM »
Quote
It occurs to me that maybe amputees are in a state of existence that is not broken in any way and thus no healing is necessary.

Could you flesh this out a bit for me? How is it that my cousin, having lost 4 fingers in an accident, is in a state of existence that is not broken in any way?



ADDED: BTW, welcome to the forum!
« Last Edit: December 02, 2010, 07:14:51 AM by monkeymind »
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Offline Doctor X

Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2010, 07:24:44 AM »
I noticed a lot of comments that suggested an uncaring or unresponsive God.

Which god?

Quote
So I just wanted to make a suggestion that might present a different perspective.


We would prefer evidence of a god rather than a confession of personal imaginations.

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Offline monkeymind

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2010, 08:17:50 AM »
Quote
I respect your ideas and beliefs as your own and am not trying to convince or  convert anyone away from their own ideas and opinions.

Well, I for one do not wish to have beliefs or ideas that cause me to speak/act in ways that are harmful to myself and others. So, by all means, please DO try to convince or convert me.

This came up recently in a discussion I was having with a relative, and so I wrote this blog. Take a look, to see where I am coming from:

http://believewhatyouwant-yoder.blogspot.com/

Also, do you believe/understand the great commission to mean to preach the gospel to all the nations? If so, isn't it your Christian duty to convince/convert me? If you think that it means to preach and not worry about convincing/converting, than aren't you really here just to preach? And, if you are here to preach, be advised that this is not allowed in the forum.

However, if you are just curious about atheists, stick around, read through some threads, read the FAQs and rules, and watch the WWGHA videos. Then, you will be better prepared to enter into discussions like the one you started here.
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline frofrodajimmyboy

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2010, 10:19:23 AM »
Maybe this is just me, but to be perfectly honest, I don't see how this is a response to the question at all.  It seems like a half-intro, half-preach.  But again, maybe it's just me, so I'd appreciate it if you could help me understand a little more.

It occurs to me that maybe amputees are in a state of existence that is not broken in any way and thus no healing is necessary.

Could you perhaps elaborate a bit more on what you mean by this?  From my perspective, amputees are the very definition of broken[1]
.   

Quote
The world is full of people who come in a wide variety of physical presentation. I think we focus on the more obvious distinctions of race, sex, age, height, and also things defined as physical abilities and disabilities to our own detriment. As a Christian my opinion is that all are created in the image of God (Genesis 1:26 and 1:27 are my biblical reference) and with the population of the world in the billions that would mean a very wide variety of images. I think we live in a world(dominated by mass media) that focuses on very obvious things like what body type we may have, what car we may drive etc. But I think we would all benefit by relating to others based on who they are as an individual instead of what they look like. I have no intention to minimize anyone's physical or life circumstances in any way. I believe everyone should be treated equally.


This is a wondeful little thought, but it doesn't exactly tie in with your initial point or assist in addressing the site's question. 

Quote
I noticed a lot of comments that suggested an uncaring or unresponsive God. So I just wanted to make a suggestion that might present a different perspective.


We're well aware of the different perspective, but you aren't exactly presenting it.  You haven't provided any reasoning as to why you have a god who is caring, or responsive, or existent. 
 1. Broken –adjective
2. reduced to fragments; fragmented.
3. ruptured; torn; fractured.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2010, 10:54:49 AM »
I am a Christian. I respect your ideas and beliefs as your own and am not trying to convince or  convert anyone away from their own ideas and opinions. I have come to this forum in peace believing that all intelligent people can discuss anything peacefully because of their intellectual ability to review information presented to them and consider it. I am offering my opinion for your consideration. It occurs to me that maybe amputees are in a state of existence that is not broken in any way and thus no healing is necessary.
wow, amazing. Please go to a VA hospital and tell the folks there that. If this excuse for your god is true, then why does God supposed actually "heal" people, per the claims of miracles of all sorts of illnesses, EXCEPT amputation. And you don't respect anythign at all and yes, we know you are here to convert. Why else would you come here to give excuses for your god? 
Quote
The world is full of people who come in a wide variety of physical presentation. I think we focus on the more obvious distinctions of race, sex, age, height, and also things defined as physical abilities and disabilities to our own detriment.
and it's not natural to be an amputee.  You want to compare being caucasian with havign your leg blown off.  Just wow.
Quote
As a Christian my opinion is that all are created in the image of God (Genesis 1:26 and 1:27 are my biblical reference) and with the population of the world in the billions that would mean a very wide variety of images.
Yep, we're supposedly created in the image of God. So is God an anencephalic child?  Is God a schizophrenic who harms himself and others? 
Quote
I think we live in a world(dominated by mass media) that focuses on very obvious things like what body type we may have, what car we may drive etc. But I think we would all benefit by relating to others based on who they are as an individual instead of what they look like. I have no intention to minimize anyone's physical or life circumstances in any way. I believe everyone should be treated equally. I noticed a lot of comments that suggested an uncaring or unresponsive God. So I just wanted to make a suggestion that might present a different perspective.
Sorry, "peace" but your god is uncaring and unresponsive since there is no evidence for its existence at all.  You have simply made one more excuse for that.  Basically, it comes down to "please ignore the fact that my god isn't what's is claimed to be and not show me I'm wrong since I'm claiming to be nice and "respectful" to you". 

"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline ksm

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2010, 05:15:09 PM »
I am offering my opinion for your consideration. It occurs to me that maybe amputees are in a state of existence that is not broken in any way and thus no healing is necessary.

Is someone who has chronic back pain, or cancer in some way broken?

Some Christians claim that their god heals people with cancer or back pain, or migraines, but I wonder why this god never, ever heals any amputees.

Seems curious to me.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2010, 05:45:08 PM »
I am a Christian.

I'm sorry to hear that.

I respect your ideas and beliefs as your own and am not trying to convince or  convert anyone away from their own ideas and opinions.

Well, I respect your right to have a belief, but I don't have to respect the actual belief, do I?  I mean, even the most awful people in the world are entitled to beliefs, but that doesn't make them worthy of respect. 

Would you be mad if I said I WAS trying to convert you because I feel your belief system might be a cancer to the world? 

It occurs to me that maybe amputees are in a state of existence that is not broken in any way and thus no healing is necessary.

STORY TIME! 

When I was in college, we had lots of lab classes.  One of my lab classes had to do with treating amputees.  So, one of our professors decided to bring in a patient that she saw regularly.  We all showed up for lab, not knowing what to expect, but figuring it would be a ho-hum lecture about donning/doffing prosthetic legs.  The man came in and we noticed immediately that he was a bilateral AK (Above the Knee) amputee. We also noticed that his residual stumps were scarred like you wouldn't believe, and not just the end parts, but the rest of the legs too. 

So he starts telling us his story.  He was a Vietnam Vet who was a P.O.W. for 3 years.  He was beaten, tortured and his legs were so hacked to bits that he had to have them taken off when he was finally released.  The torture and amputation left him with unbelievable scarring and also unbelievable amounts of trigger points in his legs and stump ends.  So what was the treatment?  Every week, this man had to have 50+ trigger point injections just to make it from one day to the next without pain that would send you and me to the ER. 

During the lab session, they did some of the trigger point injections.  To say it wasn't pretty is the understatement of the year.  He yelled and screamed every single time the needle went in, but he swore he got a lot of relief after they were done. 

So, do you still think amputees aren't broken? 

The world is full of people who come in a wide variety of physical presentation.

Explained by evolution. 

As a Christian my opinion is that all are created in the image of God (Genesis 1:26 and 1:27 are my biblical reference) and with the population of the world in the billions that would mean a very wide variety of images.

How so?  I would tend to think if everyone was made to look like one being, then everyone would look pretty much exactly the same.   Since everyone looks a little different, I think that's an argument against you here. 

But I think we would all benefit by relating to others based on who they are as an individual instead of what they look like.

But your religion says that the people who don't believe in your fairy tale are going to spend eternity in hell.  Your thoughts mirror that of atheists, not Christians.  As an atheist, I see no reason to think of any of us as different.  That includes gays, women, etc. 

I believe everyone should be treated equally.

This is very unbiblical.  The God of the OT would laugh at you.

I noticed a lot of comments that suggested an uncaring or unresponsive God. So I just wanted to make a suggestion that might present a different perspective.

If God is there, and he has the power to fix that man I spoke about earlier, yet he doesn't do it... how can you honestly say God is caring and responsive?  It's natural to think of someone or something who has the power to fix a problem, yet does not fix it, to be uncaring and unresponsive.  I don't see how you can get around that. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline bgb

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2010, 05:50:13 PM »
Read my signature.
The whole point of science is that most of it is uncertain. That's why science is exciting--because we don't know. Science is all about things we don't understand. The public, of course, imagines science is just a set of facts. But it's not.  Freeman Dyson

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2010, 07:57:37 PM »
If he was a loving god and not an uncaring god,why in the christian mind would he help a Quarterback win the superbowl while watching 4000 children starve to death every hour of every day? 

 Do not tell me that is part of his plan,since you can't speak for something that does not exist!
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Offline Ashe

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2010, 09:44:48 PM »
Welcome to the forum, peace.

I'm not sure that I understand your argument. Are you saying, in a nutshell, that amputees don't need to be healed because, really, there's nothing wrong with them enough to need healing?

If so, I feel it sort of misses the point of the question. The author was trying to point out that, of all the things God allegedly heals for people, we never see documented healings for problems that can't resolve themselves naturally. People overcome cancer. People overcome depression. People survive horrendous car crashes or accidents. People overcome all sorts of illnesses and ailments that have a chance of resolving themselves by nature. But for some reason, the "impossible" problems are never - not once, in all of humanity, with the billions of people on the planet - miraculously solved.

Why are the "impossible" problems never solved? Never once?
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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2010, 09:57:43 PM »
Welcome to the forums!

Two drink minimum. . . .

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Offline Historicity

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2010, 10:36:12 PM »
If he was a loving god and not an uncaring god,why in the christian mind would he help a Quarterback win the superbowl while watching 4000 children starve to death every hour of every day? 

The quarterback  had had his sins forgiven and was on TV where his faith could inspire millions.

The 4000 children had laughed at a bald man and deserved it.  Actually they deserved to be eaten by bears.



Offline frofrodajimmyboy

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2010, 12:03:04 AM »
Ok, I'm going to start the betting.  50 bucks says that Peace doesn't come back. 

Offline Doctor X

Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2010, 04:07:22 AM »
I see that 50 bucks and raise the stakes to 200 Quatloos he will never return.

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Offline velkyn

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2010, 08:55:50 AM »
400 quatloos! and a green haired chick in silver  ;D
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Offline gadget777

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2010, 02:18:05 PM »
Hey guys!  I just stumbled upon this forum and this thread was the first one I looked up.  I haven't had time to dive too deep into these types of discussions but first may I ask what the definition of an amputee is?

According to Luke 22, verses 49-53, Jesus heals a man who had his ear cut off by one of His own disciples.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2010, 02:26:28 PM »
Hey guys!  I just stumbled upon this forum and this thread was the first one I looked up.

Hi, Gadget, welcome to WWGHA.

Quote
I haven't had time to dive too deep into these types of discussions but first may I ask what the definition of an amputee is?

I'm surprised you would need that clarified for you.  An amputee is someone who has had one or more limbs partially or totally removed.  There are online dictionary websites that can help you with this kind of thing in the future.

Quote
According to Luke 22, verses 49-53, Jesus heals a man who had his ear cut off by one of His own disciples.

And there is no evidence that that actually happened.
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Offline frofrodajimmyboy

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2010, 02:34:53 PM »
Hey guys!  I just stumbled upon this forum and this thread was the first one I looked up.  I haven't had time to dive too deep into these types of discussions but first may I ask what the definition of an amputee is?

According to Luke 22, verses 49-53, Jesus heals a man who had his ear cut off by one of His own disciples.

An amputee would technically refer to someone who has had the "removal of a body extremity by trauma or surgery".  In regards to the question this site asks, it could really refer to anyone missing a piece or two, including an ear. 

Now as for your Bible verse, I would like you to understand that it's essentially meaningless.  You would need to prove first that Jesus actually existed, prove he actually performed this act, and explain why the healing of an amputee hasn't ocurred since then despite God clearly being willing and able to do so.  Quoting a story that has no evidence backing it and was supposedly written by someone who wasn't even there (but had every reason to lie) proves nothing and makes no relevant point.  Understand that most of us here believe the Bible in its entirety to be fiction, so bringing up anything it says as your sole piece of evidence is a waste of time. 

Offline velkyn

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2010, 03:03:02 PM »
Hey guys!  I just stumbled upon this forum and this thread was the first one I looked up.  I haven't had time to dive too deep into these types of discussions but first may I ask what the definition of an amputee is?

According to Luke 22, verses 49-53, Jesus heals a man who had his ear cut off by one of His own disciples.

and if this is true (see above for my forum buddies explanations), why doesn't he do it now? 
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Offline gadget777

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2010, 03:03:44 PM »
Understood, but it seems as though the title of the question implies that there is at least an idea of a God worth questioning.  "Why won't God heal amputees?" Why ask the question if you believe there is no God?  It would be to ask those of the Christian faith why their God is not/cannot/does not/will not do something.

I'm here to say that the "idea of God" that the question implies, actually has healed an amputee according to the Christian Bible.

Think of it this way.  Say there were people alive who believe that Shrek was a real ogre.  I do not believe this, therefore I might ask something like, "Why doesn't Shrek eat all the humans in the movie?" According to the princeton.edu website dictionary, an ogre is "a giant who likes to eat human beings." 

The person who believes in Shrek might say something like "Because he falls in love with one and he is just a nice ogre."  - A fact which is evident if you watch the movie.  Now, is the answer that this person gave actually meaningless? No it is not.  The question merely asked why Shrek didn't eat any humans.  According to the only mention of Shrek, which is in the movies (fake or real) it IS because he is a nice ogre.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2010, 03:10:01 PM »
Understood, but it seems as though the title of the question implies that there is at least an idea of a God worth questioning.  "Why won't God heal amputees?" Why ask the question if you believe there is no God?  It would be to ask those of the Christian faith why their God is not/cannot/does not/will not do something.
It is being asked of those of the Christian faith, (though it applies to all gods claimed to heal).  Atheists know why it doesn't happen.  Christians often don't even thing about it and that's why the question is being asked. To hopefully make them think about the nonsense they claim to beleive in. 

Quote
I'm here to say that the "idea of God" that the question implies, actually has healed an amputee according to the Christian Bible.
No, it really doesn't. 

Quote
Think of it this way.  Say there were people alive who believe that Shrek was a real ogre.  I do not believe this, therefore I might ask something like, "Why doesn't Shrek eat all the humans in the movie?" According to the princeton.edu website dictionary, an ogre is "a giant who likes to eat human beings." 
The person who believes in Shrek might say something like "Because he falls in love with one and he is just a nice ogre."  - A fact which is evident if you watch the movie.  Now, is the answer that this person gave actually meaningless? No it is not.  The question merely asked why Shrek didn't eat any humans.  According to the only mention of Shrek, which is in the movies (fake or real) it IS because he is a nice ogre.
Okay, if I replace Shrek with "God" in your example, do you understand that one doesn't have to also believe in God but only has to question why something that is defined in a certain way, massively fails to do anything to fulfill that definition?  The person who decided to redefine what an ogre is is the same as Christians who want to excuse why their God doesn't do anything. 
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Offline monkeymind

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2010, 03:19:16 PM »
Understood, but it seems as though the title of the question implies that there is at least an idea of a God worth questioning.  "Why won't God heal amputees?" Why ask the question if you believe there is no God?

Why ask "Why ask the question?" unless you have not bothered to read beyond the title?

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2010, 03:48:43 PM »
+1 Peace.  ^_^

What about all the amputees who do not accept your point of view though? What of the ones who pray daily asking God for a new limb? It seems unfair to me that God would heal the blind so they can see again or even raise the dead, but not help an amputee regrow a lost limb or a single lost toe even. 
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 04:35:16 PM by GamerGirl »

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2010, 04:26:52 PM »
It occurs to me that maybe amputees are in a state of existence that is not broken in any way and thus no healing is necessary.

The other day I was watching a TV Gameshow episode (something I rarely ever do). The contestant, who didn't seem to have any major problems in her life, was involved in a part of the game that involves a lot of luck. Sure enough, like any good Christian, the person started praying for a good outcome of the "luck" part of the game. The outcome was positive, and the person actually won a 6 figure amount of dollars. That person praised God for "giving" her this money. When asked what she would do with the money, she said "take a second honeymoon with her husband, buy her father a new car, and the rest goes into their retirement savings".

Exactly what argument can anyone use to explain why God found it more useful to give a significant amount of money to someone that didn't really need it, yet negate someone else his or her two hands, impearing his or her ability to work and cover their living expenses? How can anyone consider that an amputee needs no healing?

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2010, 04:28:44 PM »
nice post, Luis. welcome to the forums!
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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2010, 04:47:21 PM »
Hey guys!  I just stumbled upon this forum and this thread was the first one I looked up.  I haven't had time to dive too deep into these types of discussions but first may I ask what the definition of an amputee is?

According to Luke 22, verses 49-53, Jesus heals a man who had his ear cut off by one of His own disciples.

Yes many miracles happen in the Bible. Miracles that if they happened today would be proof that magic, including the possibility of divine intervention, was a real force in the world.

Similarly the Quaran has similar claims, as does the Iliad, as does the Books of the Dead, as does the Arthurian Legends, as does Aesop's Fables, and Grimm's Faerie Tales.

However, none of these unambiguous miracles occur in an age where people can check on wether or not they actually happened. Magic seems conspicuously absent in the presence of TV cameras; Divine intervention shies aways from being scientifically tested.

So just because it happened in a book isn't a convincing argument. WWGHA is a shorthand way of asking, since people purport God to do wondrous things even in the here and now and we are to bow are heads in praise for these blessings...why does the unambiguous miracle no longer occur? Specifically, in all the hospitals, in all the world, in the past 100 years, has not one amputee been healed through prayer? Why didn't Manna not fallen from heaven for the Jews starving to death in concentration camps? Why couldn't a Minister raise his hand and calmed the storm before the Tsunami near Sumatra? Why couldn't a priest part the waters in New Orleans during Katrina?

The conclusion is obvious, the stories of magic in the past are made up. Thus we need to treat those stories as unreliable sources of information. If they are unreliable on such tangible this such as 40 years of Wandering in a tiny desert...how much more unreliable are they when claiming things that cannot even be detected, like an afterlife?




An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Doctor X

Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2010, 05:27:09 PM »
According to Luke 22, verses 49-53, Jesus heals a man who had his ear cut off by one of His own disciples.

Ever wondered why this does not occur in Lk's source gospel of Mk?  Did Mk sort of . . . forget about it?

What a scatterbrain!

--J.D.

Offline GamerGirl

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2010, 05:33:40 PM »
Gadget,

Given today's medical technology, surgeons can reattach severed body parts as long as the reattachment conditions are optimal and adequately met within a certain time frame.  Forgive me if I'm wrong, but according to the bible, Luke was a doctor, right? I studied Latin language in high school and did a research project on surgical procedures during the classical Roman era.  It seems possible that Luke helped the man, and gave Jesus credit for the miracle.  So perhaps, if it even happened, there's a more reasonable explanation behind the smoke and mirrors.  Did anyone ever bother to follow up with this guy whose ear was healed? No.  Not to my knowledge at least.

Or, perhaps the person who wrote that book was a lying sack of crap.  :/