Author Topic: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees  (Read 24196 times)

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Offline velkyn

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #464 on: August 10, 2011, 11:35:24 AM »
54east,

All I see is one more theist who wants to assign the work of doctors and modern medicine to their god.  You ignorantly dont’ think of why this god had to wait for humans to come up with all of this nifty medical help, or why your god evidently hated amputees who dared to be injured long before c-limbs and blood banks, antibiotics, etc.  How many people died because your god didn’t get around to “revealing” those things?

I don’t care if you’ve heard other ignorant people give thanks to your god for “miracles”.  I’ve seen people give the same thanks to other gods with just as much evidence that anything supernatural happened.  Shall we worship Krishna since he gets miracles too?  You see, your limited exposure to other religions doesn’t allow you to see how similar they are and how much they claim the same baseless things.

I’m sure you’d like to try to distinguish between healing and miracle but your bible doesn’t.  So why do you want to split hairs?  looking for more excuses for your religion? 

Prayers do *nothing*.  We see no evidence of this at all, only baseless stories told by theists who are desperate for any evidence for their faith, which isn’t so much faith at all.  Your bible says to pray and all prayers will be answered positively and quickly.  Of course you want to redefine prayer since it’s more than obvious that prayers as the bible describes fail every single time.  And then there is the usual claim of a “relationship” with your god.  I have a relationship with my husband.  He shows me he loves me, he talks to me, and he does things for me.  That is a “relationship”.  Your god does nothing.  We see no evidence of *any* interaction, just the delusions of theists who all claim this relationship and not so surprisingly who claim to know all about this god no matter how much they conflict with the next believer of the same god.  I trust my husband because I have reason to.  I have no reason to trust a being that does nothing.  I’m sure lots of people have trusted this god and have died because of it.  Why is this, 54east?  Did they not do it “right”?   

I was a Christian once, thought I had this relationship with God.  And then I discovered that God did nothing.  I was losing my faith and prayed and prayed to God.  And I got nothing in return. Your prating that a relationship must be from both parties, that God already knows and loves, etc,  fails enormously in this instance.  Or do you want to claim some excuse on why this god wanted me to become an atheist?   
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Ultimately the goal is to get to "Your will be done" because I know that God's plan is perfect and mine is self-serving.
what a nice self-serving lie right here.  No, you’ve decided that you need to self-edit your prayers since you *know* your god will not answer them.  Then when you want to make belive he does, you only count the ones that did have a positive result.  Again, this makes as much sense as praying to a milk jug. 
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Offline 54East

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #465 on: August 10, 2011, 05:19:03 PM »
Velkyn:  I am not on this site to proselytize.  Nor am I on this site to be called ignorant or for people to make assumptions about what I have been exposed to in my life, and then deciding how much knowledge I possess.  I am truly here to learn how atheists see Christianity's theology.  I have no interest in what comes across in your post as spitefulness.  I want to respond to the other posts but am on my way to church and only have a few minutes.  Please do not direct any posts to me if you cannot get them translated into a more accepting tone.

All others:  thank you for cleaning up my previous lengthy post and for your perseverance in plodding through it.  I'll be briefer from now on and will be less wordy.  (Okay, so THAT pledge was broken before I even got out of the sentence!)  For the most part I am a happy woman who enjoys learning and uses humor freely.  I do hope that I will not offend anyone with my humor.

Ambassador Pony:  what is "intro"?  How is that done?  (I'm going to spend all my time just learning how to post!)

Peace to you all!

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #466 on: August 10, 2011, 05:56:20 PM »
Intro is short form for "introduction". After new users rack up three posts, like you have now, they gain the ability to start new threads. Most of the time, the first new thread they start is an introduction thread. That is done in the introductions section of the forum, you'll see it on the main page.

My post was a speculative digression about what I think I will see in that introduction thread. I also asked you a few questions to see where you're at. Will you answer them?   
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline John 3 16

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #467 on: August 10, 2011, 08:46:06 PM »
54East.
welcome to the forum.
Please don't mind velkyn.
She just uses the word "ignorant" a lot. that's it.
Just like we say "Hallelujah".

I am excited and thrilled to meet someone that values the relationship between God and man.
I liked your example of "genie in a bottle". Some people ordering God want they want and call it a prayer.

It's like telling God "you should listen to me, so I can believe you"
Do you think that will work? try that to your spouse. ;)
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #468 on: August 10, 2011, 09:10:02 PM »
so 54east, tell us about your latest conversation with god..  describe it in detail..
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #469 on: August 10, 2011, 10:06:41 PM »
so 54east, tell us about your latest conversation with god..  describe it in detail..
And let us know if you talk to him,why are you so ordinary? Why are you NOT extrodinary? Why has he not used you to heal an amputee? why has he brought you here to just spew BABBLE that is of NO use to anybody but you?

 Why has he not used you or any other followers for that matter to do something amazing? He could use you as a healer for cancer,aids,influenza,malaria,starvation,sids,downs syndrome,mental ilness,dimentia alzhiemers,Lou Gerhig's............... but NO ,why?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #470 on: August 10, 2011, 10:10:03 PM »
 And 54 why did he leave the man in such a bad way in the first place?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #471 on: August 10, 2011, 10:24:28 PM »
Astreja: I, too, am in the medical field.  And I have heard doctors, nurses, x-ray technicians, and others give credit to God for MIRACLES when there was a reverse in an illness or condition that could not be attributed to anything done by those medical professionals.

I'm also in the medical field.  And I can tell you that I have seen many instances where people get better or reverse a condition without any known reasoning behind it.  To chalk that up to God is to do so without evidence that it was God that intervened.  The only reason a medical professional would give credit to God is if they first believed that God worked miracles.  Of course, for them, things look like the work of God, because they have created in their minds a supernatural agent that has the capability to do such things.  Every religion out there does this.  Every single one.  Again, the problem is that they have no evidence that God (or Allah, or Vishnu, or what-have-you) had anything to do with it .  You don't see X-rays that say "Jesus was here" on them.  You don't have MRI's that show unequivocal evidence that the only possible thing that could explain a reversal of fortune is the hand of the Allah.  That stuff doesn't exist.  Yet because they THINK God exists, it automatically follows that they give God the credit.  The rest of us shake our heads and are honest enough with ourselves and say "I don't understand how this person got better, but that doesn't mean a supernatural entity is the only possible explanation."   

Now, on the flip side of this... What about all those times where someone went from perfectly healthy to horribly sick in a very quick period of time, and for no known reason?  Is this too, a "miracle"?  Would those same doctors and nurses and X-ray techs (all fallible humans, btw, who are capable of misreading previous exams and scans) also chalk these instances up to the work of their God?  Would you ever hear a doctor say, "I'm sorry sir.  Your son was perfectly healthy 20 minutes ago, and he just stopped breathing.  It must be a miracle!  God's plan is perfect, after all."  No, they would not.  Because they do not believe in a Deity that is willing to do such a thing.  Even though it is the EXACT SAME SCENARIO, only working against the patient instead of for them.  It is an event they do not understand, yet they do not classify it as a miracle.

Do you see the problem with the whole thing now?  The medical professionals who believe in God profess that anything they don't understand is obvious evidence for God, but only if it goes in the patients favor.  If it goes against the patient, however, it's not God.  It's just bad luck, or a turn for the worse.  I say there is no evidence that God is real, and an unexplainable turn for the better or for the worse is just something we can't explain... yet.   

I actually have a problem myself with people believing that prayer to God convinces Him to heal someone (or perform a miracle), like he's a genie in a bottle. 

So prayer to God is worthless in terms of making any sort of noticeable change in the world.  That's a old, but clever way to hide it.  How would a God that makes no noticeable change in the world differ objectively from one which isn't real?  If I said I believed very strongly in a God named PAkjfdlasj, and when you asked me to tell you why my god doesn't answer prayers, I said that he's just not in to that sort of thing, would that even remotely convince you that it was real? 

I do not view prayer in that manner.  Prayer is communication with God, a means of developing a relationship with the One Who loves me more than anyone on this earth could love me. 

Alright.  There is some serious cognitive dissonance going on here.  Have you ever looked at the world around you?  I mean, taken a good look at things?  Around the world, millions of people are starving to death.  Tens of thousands of children die every day from starvation.  Cancer kills hundreds of thousands of people every year.  Plagues, famine, death, war, destruction are all over the place.  And a good portion of it is caused by religious belief.  Yet you sit there and think God is great because he's chosen to love YOU?  Do you think God loves everyone?  And if you do, what criteria would you use in real life to assess whether or not the most powerful being in the universe "loves" everyone?  There is abundant evidence throughout the world to prove beyond any doubt that if God is real, there is no chance that he loves everyone.  No chance. 

Very loosely similar to talking with your fiance, learning who he is, what he likes, what he believes.  You marry and keep on talking.  You learn more and more about this person, become emotionally closer to him, love him more deeply.  You get to the point of trusting him.  Trusting he will love you through good and bad, he will protect you, he will accept you even when you fail.  Of course with a couple, that relationship must progress on behalf of both parties or the relationship will fail. 

So... why is it that we let people who claim to talk to GOD roam free in society, but if people claim they talk to anyone other than God, we put them in a home? 

Look, 54East.  You do not have a relationship with God.  I'm sorry, but you don't.  And if you think you do, it is nothing more than an invisible friend, and perhaps you should seek some help for this.  You are making this out to seem like God is some sort of being you can have conversations with, and quite frankly, that's nuts.  Everything you said here is correct about human to human relationships, but God is only in your head.  Seriously, this paragraph is a bit disturbing. 

When that relationship is between man and God, God already knows and loves and accepts man.  Man must learn to know and love and accept God.  Prayer is the best way to develop that relationship.

White noise.  God isn't real.  Imagine me saying that to you and substituting the word God for Santa.  That is how I, personally, view what you are saying here.  What would you think of me if I said that to you?  Wouldn't you be like... whoa, this guy's lost it. 

So...even though I have fervently prayed for God to heal someone or protect someone or to let me win a lot of money or to make me thin (always wanted to go to a faith healer and see if he would shove me to the floor and I get up thin!!)  But in that prayer--many times pleading--I am pouring out my heart to Him, telling Him my desires, developing that relationship.

In other words, you were asking him to do something for you because you didn't like whatever situation you were currently in.  That doesn't sound like relationship building.  It sounds very childish.  Imagine if you were God, having to hear this crap all the time.  I imagine for him, it would be a lot like being in a car full of kids and they are all yelling that they want to stop for ice cream, and you can't stop for ice cream because nobody's eaten dinner yet.  And you're sick of driving because you've been stuck in traffic for 3 hours on the GW bridge and there is this freaking 18-wheeler in front of you that smells like chickens, and there's nowhere to pull off and....  Can you see God turning around and screaming, "Stop whining about the ME damn ice cream or I'm gonna' climb over this seat and spank the crap out of all of you!"

Truth is, every time you pour out your heart to God, nothing changes.  You even admit it.  God doesn't do anything.  Nothing changes.  Take it another step and ask yourself... wouldn't this be the exact same result that you would get if God did not exist?   

Also, I'm curious.  Why would you need to tell God your desires?  Doesn't he already know them?

Like in the married couple's relationship, the wife tells her husband what she wants, even if she know she isn't going to get it (because of finances or something that is physically impossible for her husband to do), so I tell God what I want because that is what helps me develop my relationship with Him.

Within reason, you could probably go about proving that you have a husband.  I mean, a daily interaction with the husband is a very good indicator that you have a husband. 

This whole thing is such a mind job.  You've got this invisible friend who you think you can talk to and develop a relationship with, and it's all in your head but you can't even see that.  You have anthropomorphized this God figure to be just like another person who you can talk to, and plead your case to, and develop this relationship with, yet none of it occurs in reality.  You don't see God, you can't hear him.  You can't sense him in any way at all, yet you still believe He's there. 

The way you cover up the non-evidence for this being is by giving it ZERO characteristics that could be verified in some way.  "Oh, I've got a problem with people who think God answers prayers," you say.  Guess what?  So do we!  Why?  Because God doesn't answer prayers.  But this is where your logic and ours part ways.  We, as atheists, then move on to look for other reasons why it might be reasonable to believe in God.  We look at the bible.... failure.  We look at the world around us... massive failure.  We can't hear, touch, taste, smell, see, test, measure, experiment on anything about God to know if it's real.  Soooo, wait a minute, maybe it's not real, we say!   Then the snowball starts to roll downhill. 

All we can do is sit here and listen to you rattle on about how to develop this relationship with your personal invisible friend, and it just makes me shake my head.  It's completely looney.  What sort of brainwashing does it take to convince someone that this stuff is true? 

Ultimately the goal is to get to "Your will be done" because I know that God's plan is perfect and mine is self-serving.

If this is true, then worshiping your God is just about the last thing I would ever choose to do.  I would never worship a God who's perfect plan includes death, war, famine, genocide, rape, murder, AIDS, cancer, starvation, and so many more terrible things. 

Why would a prayer such as "God, please cure cancer around the world" NOT be part of a perfect plan?  Why would a prayer such as "God, please give everyone some food" NOT be part of a perfect plan?  Are those self-serving?  Yet, God does not answer those prayers.  Are you saying the reason is that they are selfish prayers?   

I apologize for such a long post.  Please don't kick me out of here!  I have recently become extremely interested in why atheists believe what they believe and want to learn more.  There are some real goofballs on You Tube who post their opinions (atheists and Christians alike), but I want some serious discussion.  Thanks.  Have a good night (or day, if you are on the other side of the world!)

We don't kick out Christians until they earn it.  We like having them here. 

The thing about atheists, however, is that the only thing we have in common is what we do NOT believe.  We do not believe in God.  After that, there's many different takes on things.  I dare say that most atheists do not believe in God because there is no evidence that God exists. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Astreja

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #472 on: August 11, 2011, 12:40:21 AM »
Astreja: I, too, am in the medical field.  And I have heard doctors, nurses, x-ray technicians, and others give credit to God for MIRACLES when there was a reverse in an illness or condition that could not be attributed to anything done by those medical professionals.

Coming from medical professionals, I actually consider that to be extremely unprofessional behaviour.  If they had put their beliefs aside for a moment and reexamined the "miracle" case in more detail, it might have led to a discovery that could have healed other people suffering from the same illness.

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By the way, I noticed you capitalized the "Me" in your post, which would indicate that you consider yourself God...or you hit the shift key accidentally (I'm just kidding!!  Please don't lambaste me!)

(Springy G pulls out Her membership card for the Asgard Deities Union, Local #204) Why, yes, I *am* a goddess; thanks for asking.  I'm not a big-G monotheism-type god, though; I'm one god among many.  My magisteria are:
  • The vernal equinox in the Northern Hemisphere (a nice chap in New Zealand is currently handling the Southern Hemisphere's springy needs);
  • Punctuation;
  • Chocolate;
  • And random equipment malfunctions.
In other words, I'm the goddess of various things that happen all by themselves.  I'm also agnostic as to My own divinity.   ;D
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #473 on: August 11, 2011, 02:35:10 AM »
I actually have a problem myself with people believing that prayer to God convinces Him to heal someone (or perform a miracle), like he's a genie in a bottle. 

I am excited and thrilled to meet someone that values the relationship between God and man.
I liked your example of "genie in a bottle". Some people ordering God want they want and call it a prayer.
It's like telling God "you should listen to me, so I can believe you"

Hello John.  Hello 54.  You seem united that your god does not simply grant random miracles like a "genie in a bottle".  But your view seems quite different to that of many other believers who come here.  Take Flew, for example....

We reached a certain point on the trail where the one individuals water ran out, and myself and the other hiker in our slower group were down to about 3 liters collectively (?).....We stopped besides a big boulder to get out of the sun, and prayed.....After hiking for about 30 more minutes, we came across (a) Gatorade bottle in the trail.  Probably 45 minutes later, we came across (an) oasis.  I use the term loosely, it was simply a small pool of collected water for the rain the night previous.  It was the first and only we saw.

I am still in awe that God provided for us and preserved us.
The water, in both instances, was miraculous.

Flew is absolutely convinced that he and his group prayed to their god, and their god - like a genie in a bottle - produced (a) a gatorade bottle full of water, and (b) a pool of rainwater for them to drink from.

So I'm curious.  Are YOU guys right, that god doesn't just pop down and answer prayers?  Or is Flew right, that god is quite happy to grant miracles on request?  You can read Flew's full story on this thread, if you are interested --> http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,19141.msg435970.html#msg435970
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline velkyn

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #474 on: August 11, 2011, 10:03:28 AM »
Velkyn:  I am not on this site to proselytize.  Nor am I on this site to be called ignorant or for people to make assumptions about what I have been exposed to in my life, and then deciding how much knowledge I possess.
well, then show us the evidence you claim to have.  If not, I will easily stand by my calling you willfully ignorant with your ridiculous claims.  Ignorance is a bad thing but it can be cured.  Are you willing to cure yours?  You claim I make assumptions, so show me I’m wrong.  I’d be more than happy to be wrong but I doubt that I am.   Show me how you aren’t just one more theist who wants to assign hard human work to their god and then can’t answer why their god evidently hated those who dared to be amputees before it got around to “allowing” humanity to discover pain killers, c-limbs, modern surgery, etc.  And show me why we shouldn’t worship Krishna as much as your god.  Tell me why that you would claim that people should trust this god since it *will* help them, when it’s so easy to show you’re your claim is utterly wrong.  Why did I lose my faith when praying to this god when you claim that this god would never let that happen?

Hard questions aren’t they?  And you should expect them since this is what I find wrong with your religion.  This is how I see Christian theology and the claims of Christians.
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I am truly here to learn how atheists see Christianity's theology.  I have no interest in what comes across in your post as spitefulness.  I want to respond to the other posts but am on my way to church and only have a few minutes.  Please do not direct any posts to me if you cannot get them translated into a more accepting tone.
Sorry, I don’t care what you might want to claim as “spiteful” so you can avoid answering my points.  It’s a common attempt by many theists to find excuses on why not to answer atheists’ questions.  Rather than just answer, you want to excuse yourself.  In this reponse, you could have actually responded rather than taking the time to accuse me falsely of being “spiteful”. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline velkyn

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #475 on: August 11, 2011, 10:06:42 AM »
54East.welcome to the forum. Please don't mind velkyn.
She just uses the word "ignorant" a lot. that's it.
Just like we say "Hallelujah".
unfortunately for John, he's lying when trying to pretend that I do not mean "ignorant" when I say ignorant. Always good to see a Christian bearing false witness. It's certainly not as meaningless as "hallelujah".
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It's like telling God "you should listen to me, so I can believe you"
Do you think that will work? try that to your spouse. ;)
I'm rather sorry that John's spouse isn't as nice as mine.  However, the bible says that JC does miracles in order for people to believe, so answering prayers to show he is real is quite biblical.  Unfortunately, since that doesn't work, many Christians must ignore their own holy book as it is convenient for them. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline John 3 16

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #476 on: August 11, 2011, 12:31:25 PM »
Sorry 54east, looks like velkyn really meant to say"ignorant"

Hey velkyn mind if I ask you a question?

why were you a Christian? what made you a atheist?

just curious
Are you a hatheist?  (hey-thee-ist)

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #477 on: August 11, 2011, 12:40:55 PM »
Velkyn:  I am not on this site to proselytize.  Nor am I on this site to be called ignorant or for people to make assumptions about what I have been exposed to in my life, and then deciding how much knowledge I possess.  I am truly here to learn how atheists see Christianity's theology. 

First, you have to separate the emotional charge of the word ignorant, we are all ignorant. To use an example, I am ignorant about syntax in the Chinese language.

Secont, you need to understand everyone here has been exposed to Christian theology, on average has read the bible more than the average Christian, and most were originally Christian, and a scant few were even Priests or Ministers. Don't be like a thousand fools before you and immediately go into the fallacy of "No True Scotsman," to say "but that isn't what a real Christian does/is/believes/practices/etc" because each Christian has their own set of beliefs of what a "real" Christian is...and it is always what they do/are/believes/practices.

Now that being said, I, for one, will be using language that may seem rude or in your face. This is not for the sake of spite, but in my opinion one of the reasons religion remain is politeness. To question them is forbidden territory, they are held above accountability of fact and evidence. When you have something held about fact and evidence, it is con man territory, the Emperor's New Clothes being a good analogy of how I see theology. An extensive description of the wonderful qualities of something that isn't there to begin with.

Being polite has to be dispensed with sometimes if you are to tell the truth.

It is back to basics:


(1)Define God. Do not use weasel words or circular definitions.
(2)Prove that that definition is not a logical paradox
(3)Show proof that differs from the other ten thousand dieties man
has worshipped, again without committing a logical error

Until you do those three things....your worship of that deity is the intellectual equivalent a gibbering tribal primitive bowing before their god, UGABUGA.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #478 on: August 11, 2011, 12:55:44 PM »
Sorry 54east, looks like velkyn really meant to say"ignorant"
Always nice to see a Christian backpedaling.
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Hey velkyn mind if I ask you a question?
why were you a Christian? what made you a atheist?
just curious
I was a Christian because I was told it was true by people whom I trusted.  I had no reason to disbelieve because like many Christians, I was taught an incomplete bible, all of the inconvenient parts left out, and was given the usual excuses on why this god doesn't fulfill what it promised.  I was a Presbyterian. I taught Bible School in my church if you want to know how I was a Christian, served communion, sang in the choir, etc.

I became an atheist for a variety of reasons.  My church ripped itself apart on the word of one woman who said God talked to her in her garden.  I then read the bible myself, entirely front to back and prayed to God to help me keep my faith.  I thought going to the horse's mouth made more sense than paying attention to the Christians around me.  I read it as a beleiver with an open prayerful mind and waiting for God to communicate with me since I believed he would since that is what is promised.

Reading the whole bible is probably one of the quickest ways to become an atheist.  I found out why one never hears much about certain books and certain parables.  They reveal a god that is no better than any of the others I had read about, primitive and petty and very human.  I found a god that harms people for no action of their own, original sin, the flood, the ten plagues, etc.  I realized I was better than this god since I would not harm someone for someone else's "transgressions".   I found little better in the New Testament, with people being damned for not believing just because they weren’t born at the right place or time.  I knew this was wrong since why would that make them any less in a truly good god’s sight?  I found a “savior” that said it intentionally made sure some people would never believe and thus damned them for no fault of their own *again*. 

And getting back to those prayers, I prayed a lot to keep my faith.  And I got nothing.  Not a peep from this god.  No revelation like Thomas, nothing. If this god is all Christians say, that it wants all people to beleive in it, to worship it, that it Loves everyone, why would this happen?  At first, I had ridiculous thoughts, that I was the “anti-Christ” and was the “only” person this happened to. &)  But it seemed much more likely that this god didn’t exist just as Odin or Zeus or Amon-Re didn’t exist. There was no evidence for them so why think that any of these nonsensical claims were true, even if they were from people I trusted?  So, I read and I researched and I still prayed.  And the evidence mounted up that Christianity is just as mythical as the rest.  It claimed things happened and there is no evidence.  It claims to be the only font of goodness but it isn’t.  Christians lie and do horrible things in their god’s name and this god does nothing, though it had no problem in smiting peole who did so all of the time in those *stories*.  I found that the most basic science could show that the religion and its believers were wrong in its claims.  And I found that every theist uses their own magic decoder ring to create a religion and god that not so strangely supports everything that they want it to.

I’m sure you’ll have all sorts of reason why I wasn’t a TrueChristiantm or that I didn’t pray in the “right” manner, or I wasn’t “sincere” enough etc to excuse your god.  Just let me remind you that all of your excuses can and are used by every other theist whose god you don’t believe in. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline Morgan

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #479 on: August 11, 2011, 03:27:56 PM »
@54East
As a theist in the medical field, what is your stance on NDEs and the religious nature of a percentage?

Offline Omen

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #480 on: August 11, 2011, 03:48:03 PM »
I call that healed....Be it by God or medicine practiced by doctors

You call normal medical procedures an act of your god?

How does the logic follow on that?

How do you qualitatively determine that your god acted in any fashion in order to claim god to have healed anything?

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Asking the question about healing amputees is just like asking about healing diabetics and bald people and fat people.  Is the question really "Why doesn't God make amputated limbs grow back

No, the question is Why won't god heal amputees?

Christians claim to be healed for everything from gonorrhea to foot fungus, miraculously and completely.  No half ass qualifications of feeling better or having it temporarily subside, but full on magical suspension of reality due to the insertion of an act of a divine supernatural being.

Yet, when you talk about 'amputees' being healed, you don't cite an amputee that is miraculously and completely healed.  You don't cite any qualification that could even be understood in the same context that millions of christians already treat and claim miracle healings.  Are you not willfully obfuscating, based on a poorly made qualification of what you considered 'healed' by a god in comparison to what other christians claim of healing by the same god?

If you are not, then surely you have an objective logical answer to explain how you qualify normal medical procedures as an act of your god in a way that could be understood or known?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Omen

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #481 on: August 11, 2011, 04:01:02 PM »
Velkyn:  I am not on this site to proselytize.  Nor am I on this site to be called ignorant

Ignorance is a term to describe a lack of knowledge.  To be exact:

Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge)[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorance

So you're not here to be called out when you ignore counter evidence to your own arguments?

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or for people to make assumptions about what I have been exposed to in my life

Velkyn did not engage in this, Velkyn quite correctly took a claim you made in this thread and compared that claim to all the contingent analogies, logical possibilities, and contradictory notions of your own premises/conclusions.  You were quite rightly called out on a very vague qualification you used to justify a claim.  You arbitrarily cherry pick a starting point from which to assume your qualification as an answer, as if god acting through medical doctors who used to have leeches was as much 'god' healing as medical doctors actually using more effective modern techniques.  Not to mention that your qualification makes it impossible to determine when a god is acting through a doctor and when a god isn't acting through a doctor, its just a vague assertion on your part.. begging more questions and demanding more explanations then you even bothered to offer.  A tautological answer that makes it impossible to separate gods existence from its non-existence is meaningless.

It can be summed up as ignorance.

The problem is also the kind of expectations we have on this forum, we actually expect theist to be somewhat honest and intelligent, but we often find that that is just not the case.  For me it feels like I'm talking down to a child, I find it hard to believe that I have to actually explain in very literal terms how poor your argument is, as I did in my previous post.  I'm really taken back that it doesn't seem as obvious as it is to me, so that leads me to ask questions and to question your own sincerity.  I don't see a patient, ethical, and responsible post in your first foray into the thread; I see an intellectually dishonest person willing to make up any absurd rationalization in order to answer the problem for themselves rather than others.

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I am truly here to learn how atheists see Christianity's theology.

Excellent, here is your first lesson:

1. Your christianity is neither self evident nor derived in a manner to be understood as true or the only interpretation.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Online nogodsforme

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #482 on: August 11, 2011, 04:31:05 PM »
Sorry 54east, looks like velkyn really meant to say"ignorant"

Hey velkyn mind if I ask you a question?

why were you a Christian? what made you a atheist?

just curious
I want to jump in here and try to prevent the "you guys are atheists because you want to live a sinful lifestyle" line of bullcrap. If there really was an all-powerful, loving god, and there was clear, unimpeachable evidence for that we would of course believe in it. There would be no reason not to believe in it. It would be delusional to deny it.[1]

We don't believe in any gods because there is no evidence. There is ample evidence that none of the gods people say exist actually do. We don't live more "sinful" lives than anyone else, sorry, no secret wild sex orgies[2] or nightly baby-eating demonic rituals. And if we do something out of the ordinary, whether good or bad, it is not because of any magical beings. It is because we are humans with a particular genetic tendency to be the way we are, given the cultural environment we are in. That's it. No gods necessary.

Except for the religion part, our lives are indistinguishable from a random roomful of Christians, Muslims, Jews or Zoroastrians. Not better or worse. We have members here who were hardcore drug addicts and criminals, who overcame these negative things and are living better lives-- without any magic beings. We have members who are happily married with kids and jobs and pets and homes in the 'burbs--without any magic beings. And we all have survived the ups and downs of life and continue to cope with them-- without magic beings.
 1. Whether we would want to worship it is another issue...if Santa or Vishnu or Satan or Darth Vader or Superman or Wonder Woman existed, would you automatically worship them just because they have magical powers?
 2. At least none that I have been invited to
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline fishjie

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #483 on: August 11, 2011, 04:40:27 PM »
Christians commit sins all the time, so saying atheists are atheists because they want to sin is pretty silly.   If anything, the fact that I can commit ANY sin I want to (except blasphemy against the holy spirit) and get away with it because I am forgiven thx to the Blood of the Lamb would make me want to be a christian.   Amirite???

Case in point:  Ted Haggard - crystal meth + gay hookers = BI WINNING CHRISTIAN!

Offline jetson

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #484 on: August 11, 2011, 07:01:38 PM »
An atheist cannot commit a sin.  There are no sins.  That is a religious invention, and does not apply to atheists.  Atheists can make mistakes, commit crimes based on their communities laws, and cause grief and harm to others.  But that is true for all humans, regardless of their world views.

Offline John 3 16

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #485 on: August 11, 2011, 07:41:13 PM »
Velkyn.
I am not going to judge whether you were true or false Christian, because I don't even know you.
Only God knows.

but I still have few more questions, I am just curious, if you don't mind.

1)what did you think the whole bible was telling you when you were "believing"?
2)what was your first reaction when you heard son of god died for you? how did it feel?
3)what did you think the purpose of existence of bible
4)The bible says "going to church, serving communion, teaching bible, praying really hard" does not make one "Christian"
   then what would you say to that?
Are you a hatheist?  (hey-thee-ist)

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Offline John 3 16

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #486 on: August 11, 2011, 07:55:37 PM »
Christians commit sins all the time, so saying atheists are atheists because they want to sin is pretty silly.   If anything, the fact that I can commit ANY sin I want to (except blasphemy against the holy spirit) and get away with it because I am forgiven thx to the Blood of the Lamb would make me want to be a christian.   Amirite???

Case in point:  Ted Haggard - crystal meth + gay hookers = BI WINNING CHRISTIAN!
you are wrong.
Atheists are atheist because they don't want to believe, not because they want to sin.
try saying "I can commit any sin I want to" after you truly received the holy spirit and forgiven.
I can easly spot false christians this way.
the one mis-understood god's gift would say something like that, but if you look into the bible little deeper, that's not true.
Are you a hatheist?  (hey-thee-ist)

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Offline HAL

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #487 on: August 11, 2011, 07:58:58 PM »
Atheists are atheist because they don't want to believe, ...

Why do you think an atheist doesn't want to believe?

Offline John 3 16

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #488 on: August 11, 2011, 08:00:24 PM »
or may I sould say "atheist just don't believe"
Are you a hatheist?  (hey-thee-ist)

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Offline HAL

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #489 on: August 11, 2011, 08:02:45 PM »
or may I sould say "atheist just don't believe"

Why do you think atheists "just don't believe"?

Offline John 3 16

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #490 on: August 11, 2011, 08:25:16 PM »
In a christina point of view it's a mistery.
my honest answer "I don't know"
answers I got in this forum "because there is no objective evidence"
Are you a hatheist?  (hey-thee-ist)

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Offline HAL

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #491 on: August 11, 2011, 08:28:54 PM »
answers I got in this forum "because there is no objective evidence"

Is the lack of "objective evidence" a good reason to disbelieve in Christianity?

If not, why not?

Offline John 3 16

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Re: Peaceful Response to the Question asked Why Won't God Heal Amputees
« Reply #492 on: August 11, 2011, 08:38:26 PM »
Like we agreed upon, "there are many things we don't understand, and not everything can be explained or have objective evidence"
You don't just disbelieve everything you don't understand, right?
Are you a hatheist?  (hey-thee-ist)

A person who vocally hates on religious individuals, often criticizing such persons for being uneducated hillbillies.